Potw : A.A.Z

[MenInG]

A wonderful post to shed light on Younis Khan's brilliant career by [MENTION=142755]A.A.Z[/MENTION] and congratulations for winning this week's POTW


http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...is-Khan-knock-in-ODIs&p=10803134#post10803134

Younis Khan was a much better ODI batsmen than his numbers suggest but after the oathgate revolt against his captaincy he was always in and out of the side and never the same force in ODI cricket as he had been prior to 2009.

Captaincy didn't affect his batting as he averaged a stunning 57.33 on his way to leading Pakistan to the 2009 World Cup. The team was turning into a real force under him with a lot of youngsters being brought to the fore and Pakistan performed pretty well in the 2009 Champions Trophy as well including an epic win against India.

But after the revolt against his captaincy coupled with several personal tragedies in his life including that of Bob Woolmer, who was a father figure for him, he wasn't the same player ever again not even in tests until a late career revival. Woolmer's death along with the demise of his brothers and nephews around the same time were the reason he didn't accept the captaincy after the 2007 World Cup when he had been groomed as the natural long term successor.

Most of his best performances came in and around the Woolmer era when Pakistan briefly became a team capable of chasing massive targets with Younis, Yousuf and Inzi forming Pakistan's strongest middle order since the 1970's.

Some of his best chasing knocks include:

56 not out in Melbourne against an ATG Australia. Man of the Match. (2002)

71 not out in the inaugural game in Abu Dhabi against India. Man of the Match. (2006)

101 in Southampton against England. Man of the Match. (2006)

117 in Mohali against India. Man of the Match. (2007)

123 not out in Karachi against India. Man of the Match. (2008)

73 in Dubai against an ATG South Africa. Man of the Match. (2010)

Some of his best knocks setting a target when batting first include:

93 in Durban against an ATG South Africa. Man of the Match. (2007)

108 in Dhaka against India in a final. Man of the Match. (2008)

101 in Abu Dhabi against West Indies with a rampant Gayle and Sarwan. Man of the Match. (2008)

72 in Colombo against finalists Sri Lanka in the 2011 World Cup. Best World Cup innings.

Most of these innings he played batting in the top order at number 3 when he was in fact a very accomplished batsmen in the finisher role batting at 6/7. He almost won Pakistan his first game on debut coming in at number 7 before getting run out on 46.

His 56 in Melbourne against an ATG Australia in 2002 to level the series is probably my favourite knock of his considering the conditions he was exposed to as a rookie. He came in at number 6 and took Pakistan to victory in a low scoring thriller with just 2 wickets remaining. It gave a glimpse into the ability of the man who would go onto become the greatest 4th innings batsmen of all time.

His numbers may have still been better had he cared more about his average than always trying to sneak in an extra run for the team's cause during the last ball of the innings and often sacrificing his wicket. Captaincy revolts, personal tragedies and even Pakistan not playing tests for an entire year in 2008 when he was at his peak were all obstacles he had to overcome but he went onto stand the test of time as one of Pakistan's most accomplished players across formats.

 

[Titan24]

Excellent analysis covering some of the off the field cricketing and non cricketing aspects as well which fans often overlook .

 

[Babar E Azam]

Quality post!

Makes you wonder how much more Pakistan could have achieved from 2007 till 2014 when the PCB was completely incompetent at handling off the field issues

 

[ElRaja]

appreciate the essence of the post but he is not the only player to go through personal tragedies or have to face player politics in pakistani history, and once you remove minnows from his stats he barely average 28, and a world cup average of 21 says everything.

you take any player who has played 250 games and its easy to find 10 or 15 outstanding performances in their role. there is no way an average of around 30 for a specialist batsmen can be justified, neither is his list A average significantly better. i am a massive fan of younis khan the test player but he was a passenger for nearly all of his odi career.

yk was a test player through and through, his odi game may have been justified in the 80s or 90s, however it was not in the era he played in.

 

[sweep_shot]

Congratulations!

 

[The Viper]

Top post. Younis Khan was an average player if you look at his whole career, but like most players, he had his moments of brilliance. Younis had pretty good stats as a number 6 as he averaged 42 with a SR of 91, albeit only in 30 matches. Maybe he should have been utilized more as a number 6.

 

[A.A.Z]

Thank you! Appreciate the recognition.

 

[Mamoon]

It is a good write up but unfortunately it is driven by emotion rather than rational thinking.

The OP has cherry-picked about 10 innings in a career spanning 265 ODIs, conveniently forgetting the fact that he has been the chief culprit for many, many ODI defeats.

Younis averaged 29 in ODIs after 120+ matches at number 3. That is a pathetic record and a major factor for our poor rankings in ODIs.

He played more ODIs than he deserved and he played the seniority card to get into the 2015 World Cup squad.

Younis is not underrated in ODIs. He is rated appropriately. A thoroughly average batsman in the format and when you play 265 matches, you are bound to have a few good innings in-between.

A POTW because of the effort and passion but it is a post clearly devoid of rational thinking.

 

[A.A.Z]

It is a good write up but unfortunately it is driven by emotion rather than rational thinking.

The OP has cherry-picked about 10 innings in a career spanning 265 ODIs, conveniently forgetting the fact that he has been the chief culprit for many, many ODI defeats.

Younis averaged 29 in ODIs after 120+ matches at number 3. That is a pathetic record and a major factor for our poor rankings in ODIs.

He played more ODIs than he deserved and he played the seniority card to get into the 2015 World Cup squad.

Younis is not underrated in ODIs. He is rated appropriately. A thoroughly average batsman in the format and when you play 265 matches, you are bound to have a few good innings in-between.

A POTW because of the effort and passion but it is a post clearly devoid of rational thinking.

As I responded to you in the other thread.

No I definitely agree he had a below par ODI career but I don't think we should use that to undermine his other achievements like so many on here do. He under-achieved in ODI's but he was still one of our key match-winners till 2009, even in high scoring games, and we shouldn't discount that for what came later.

The post is not about Younis being a great ODI batsmen but not as bad as his numbers suggest.

 

[topspin]

Doesn't get the respect he deserves for his cricketing achievements, so I'm glad to see this was awarded POTW in response to the armchair critics who seem to focus more on his off-the field issues (which I don't condone in shape or form).

 

[shaz619]

Congrats, it's nice to read an objective post for once which has been thoroughly researched and free off illogical arguments inspired by biological deficiencies. There is no doubt Younis should have done better but there are some understandable grievances during that time as well and beyond that clearly he made some very important / crucial contributions. In the 21st century he has been the most important Batsman to the Pakistani team.

 

[Ilan Bluestone]

Don’t know about much better.

He was a below average to at best, average batsmen.

To play 265 ODIs when that average and SR are below par, you will have some highlights. Playing that many will result in that.

The post is well written but I don’t agree with believing he is much better.

His tests is what gave him so many matches in ODI to see if he could replicate the quality, but he could not.

A younger Misbah probably would have been a better option but Inzi had his differences so that came in the way.

Congrats nonetheless.

 

[gazza619]

The OP has cherry-picked about 10 innings in a career spanning 265 ODIs,

Isnt that what you and realAB were doing when defining Waqar Younis, conveniently cherry picking a handful of average test matches he had?

Back on the topic, Younis Khan should never have played 265 ODIs with such a low average. He held a spot for more than a decade where a potential Babar Ali was lost in the system.

 

[Mamoon]

Isnt that what you and realAB were doing when defining Waqar Younis, conveniently cherry picking a handful of average test matches he had?

Back on the topic, Younis Khan should never have played 265 ODIs with such a low average. He held a spot for more than a decade where a potential Babar Ali was lost in the system.

There is no cherry-picking when you are consistently struggling against the best batting lineups and feasting on weaker lineups with heavily tampered balls.

 

[Ilan Bluestone]

There is no cherry-picking when you are consistently struggling against the best batting lineups and feasting on weaker lineups with heavily tampered balls.

It’s similar to Afridi, play that many matches and you’re bound to have match winning performances.

 

[Mamoon]

It’s similar to Afridi, play that many matches and you’re bound to have match winning performances.

Stats can be misleading, but when you average 29 at number 3 after 120+ matches, it is very clear that you are not good enough.

Younis was Pakistan’s number 3 at a time when we are consistently 6th/7th in the rankings and other number 3s such as Kohli and Sangakkara were racking up hundreds after hundreds.

He was one of the key reasons why we were unable to become a top ODI team, and then his apologists have the gall to defend him by asserting that he won 6-7 ODIs over a 15 year long career.

Afridi was an overrated player, but still twice the ODI cricketer.

 

[topspin]

Isnt that what you and realAB were doing when defining Waqar Younis, conveniently cherry picking a handful of average test matches he had?

Back on the topic, Younis Khan should never have played 265 ODIs with such a low average. He held a spot for more than a decade where a potential Babar Ali was lost in the system.

Waqar Younis was a bum in WC tournaments and tests played in Australia and India. He scrapes the ATG status as a bowler but a bit overrated.

 

[topspin]

Stats can be misleading, but when you average 29 at number 3 after 120+ matches, it is very clear that you are not good enough.

Younis was Pakistan’s number 3 at a time when we are consistently 6th/7th in the rankings and other number 3s such as Kohli and Sangakkara were racking up hundreds after hundreds.

He was one of the key reasons why we were unable to become a top ODI team, and then his apologists have the gall to defend him by asserting that he won 6-7 ODIs over a 15 year long career.

Afridi was an overrated player, but still twice the ODI cricketer.

As much as I cherish Younis Khan's contributions to Pakistan cricket, there's no doubt he was more of a liability in ODIs especially in the 2010s when he was well and truly past it.

 

[gazza619]

Stats can be misleading, but when you average 29 at number 3 after 120+ matches, it is very clear that you are not good enough.

Younis was Pakistan’s number 3 at a time when we are consistently 6th/7th in the rankings and other number 3s such as Kohli and Sangakkara were racking up hundreds after hundreds.

He was one of the key reasons why we were unable to become a top ODI team, and then his apologists have the gall to defend him by asserting that he won 6-7 ODIs over a 15 year long career.

Afridi was an overrated player, but still twice the ODI cricketer.

How come you do not use the same analogy to all the players? I am totally with you on Younis Khan and but your analysis on Waqar in a different thread is not consistent to your own metrics.

I could say that Kohli and Sangkarra smashed most of their hundreds during times when bowling standards were ridiculously low, ODI rules changed to suit the batsmen, heavier bats, two new balls thereby hardly any spin. I can go on and on and on and prove you wrong. There is a lot of inconsistency in your analysis. Just like how your turn a blind eye when something is being said against your personal favourite names in TPS.

 

[Mamoon]

How come you do not use the same analogy to all the players? I am totally with you on Younis Khan and but your analysis on Waqar in a different thread is not consistent to your own metrics.

I could say that Kohli and Sangkarra smashed most of their hundreds during times when bowling standards were ridiculously low, ODI rules changed to suit the batsmen, heavier bats, two new balls thereby hardly any spin. I can go on and on and on and prove you wrong. There is a lot of inconsistency in your analysis. Just like how your turn a blind eye when something is being said against your personal favourite names in TPS.

I have no issues with you downplaying Kohli and Sangakkara’s records because of favorable ODI rules, heavier bats and two new balls if you apply the same logic to the bowlers.

If Kohli is inferior to Tendulkar, then Wasim is inferior to Starc and Waqar is inferior to Malinga, because in the Wasim/Waqar era, the rules were not very batting-friendly, the bats were not heavy and there were no two new balls.

The problem with people who downplay the records of contemporary batsmen and degrade them compared them to their predecessors is that they get their knickers in a twist when you extend the same logic to bowlers.

These people will have you believe that the standard of both batting and bowling magically decreased. They will downplay the records of contemporary batsmen because of favorable rules, but then they refuse to give extra credit to contemporary bowlers because of unfavorable rules.

The difference between flat pitches, two new balls, and revised rules and ball-tampering is that the former is legal and the latter is illegal.

If ICC had legalized ball-tampering, or if the ICC legalized chucking, there would no question marks over the records of Waqar and Ajmal.

More than the cheating factor, the biggest question marks on Waqar is his struggles against the best batting lineups and quality top-order batsmen.

He was a great bowler but clearly not in the same league as Wasim and Imran, Pakistan’s two greatest bowlers.

Waqar was closer to the Shoaib Akhtar and an in form Amir category than the Wasim/Imran category.

Anyone who puts Waqar at the same podium as those two is either overrating Waqar or underrating Wasim/Imran.

Anyway, this thread is not about Waqar, and I suspect we will get a reminder from the mods soon, so I will leave it here. However, I am more than willing to continue this discourse in a relevant thread and try to convince you that Waqar wasn’t as great a bowler as you think.

 

[gazza619]

He was a great bowler but clearly not in the same league as Wasim and Imran, Pakistan’s two greatest bowlers.

Waqar was closer to the Shoaib Akhtar and an in form Amir category than the Wasim/Imran category.

Anyone who puts Waqar at the same podium as those two is either overrating Waqar or underrating Wasim/Imran.

Anyway, this thread is not about Waqar, and I suspect we will get a reminder from the mods soon, so I will leave it here. However, I am more than willing to continue this discourse in a relevant thread and try to convince you that Waqar wasn’t as great a bowler as you think.

Thank you, agree with that 200%.

Coming back to the topic the issue with the Pakistani batsmen including Younis Khan was that they couldnt adapt to the modern way of batting. It is strange though as the likes of AB and Kohli transformed their game and became champion, our players were just happy to play within their limits. A lot of discredit also goes to Misbah and his mentality during those years.

 

[Hasan123]

A good effort here.

But I believe Younis Khan is an average ODI player and played way too many ODIs.

 

[Babar E Azam]

I don't believe the post is about Younis being a great ODI batsmen.

He had a below par ODI career but I don't think we should use that to undermine his other achievements like so many on here do.

He under-achieved in ODI's but he was still one of our key match-winners till 2009, even in high scoring games, and we shouldn't discount that for what came later.

The post is not about Younis being a great ODI batsmen but not as bad as his numbers suggest.