POTW : Mamoon and Junaids [Joint Winners]

[MenInG]

2 excellent posts from two excellent posters. Really had no option but to award the POTW as joint winners.

Congratulations to [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] & [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

Some of you will have noted my excitement today when I met the 88 year old Australian legend Neil Harvey at the hotel next to the Adelaide Oval.

To be fair to the poor man, he was only coming out of the lift when I saw him and - in contrast to my behaviour around any other former cricketer - I approached him and told him that I had been brought up on stories of him at my father's knee. He smiled.

To Australians, and to the English too, Neil Harvey is viewed like Sachin Tendulkar, the boy genius who never grew up. He was the baby of Bradman's 1948 Invincibles, and so he played with long-dead legends like Bradman, Compton, Miller and Lindwall. He in recent years has been an outspoken but generally correct analyst of the modern game. He is a national treasure. And he hit 21 Test centuries in 79 Tests at an average of 48, which is like 68 now.

My English club is Lancashire, and our home grown legend of the mid-eighties to mid-nineties was Neil Fairbrother. Neil Harvey Fairbrother, to be precise.

That's how much we English love and respect Neil Harvey, as [MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION] and [MENTION=732]Gilly[/MENTION] must know.

But I think this forum is the best place to expand on this, and its peculiarly Pakistani genesis.

My father was born "British Indian" but lived in Dacca until he "returned" to England in the 1960's. ( [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] if you knew who his mother was, you'd be shocked. But I'm sworn to secrecy).

Anyway, in 1959-60, my Dad and his "West Pakistani" best friend attended the First Test in Dacca between Pakistan and Australia.

It was played in treacherous conditions on a matting wicket. For Pakistan, Hanif Mohammad opened the batting with Ijaz Butt and Fazal Mahmood led the bowling. Richie Benaud led the Aussies, who included the original Wasim Akram in the form of Alan Davidson, not to mention the original Lillee in Ray Lindwall.

Pakistan scored 200, then Australia replied with 225 including a masterly 96 by Harvey. Pakistan replied with 134, setting Australia 112 to win, which they reached with 8 wickets in hand, Harvey adding another 30 to his tally.

Harvey's 96 was probably the greatest innings ever played in Pakistan. The wicket was treacherous, and he was batting against the-then greatest left-arm paceman of all time, the spinner with the most wickets of all time, and the most feared fast bowler in the world.

And he suffered from a high fever, diarrhoea and vomiting.

When the time difference allowed, I tonight rang my father in England to tell him who I'd just met. He couldn't believe that Neil Harvey was still alive, let alone fit enough to go to the cricket.

He then asked me if I'd apologised for him. I replied "No, what for?"

And then he told me. My dad and his Pakistani friend had bounded up to the sick and exhausted Neil Harvey when he was 80 not out at the end of Day 2.

And he was so frail and exhausted that they knocked him over when they patted him on the back!

If I see him again I will pass on the apology.

He's the non-striker in this picture from that day, Day 2, 14 November 1959. And the picture makes me doubt whether Fazal Mahmood was any quicker than Asif or Philander. Looks like he bowled a lot of off-cutters though!

View attachment 70749

Has nothing to do with Waqar or Arthur. This team is solid in Asian conditions, doesn't matter who the coach is.

The drawn series in England is again down to the nature of pitches. Playing in late summer during the dry season helped us greatly, otherwise we would have suffered the Sri Lanka fate had we played in May. Those who doubt it should look at Pakistan's capitulation in this series in bowling-friendly conditions.

We were always going to get exposed outside the UAE in tougher conditions, it was only a matter of time. Unbeaten from two years, but playing in helpful conditions did not expose our weaknesses.

Now before I'm reminded of how we went two years without winning a series under Whatmore and the myth that Waqar changed the fortunes of our Test team, let's consider the facts.

We toured SA in 2013 with Whatmore who were the best side in the world by some distance, and we also hosted them in the UAE. Drawing 1-1 with them (that too thanks to Faf's zipper) was a great result. That team was better than all the English and Australian teams that have toured us in the UAE.

Yes there were some bad results in Zimbabwe and a drawn series at home to Sri Lanka, but replacing Adnan and Ajmal with Sarfraz and Yasir made a massive difference.

Adnan was hopeless with the bat at that time and only extended our tail; Sarfraz although is in a rut at the moment, has been a quality Test batsman who has played a key role. Whatmore only had one series with Sarfraz in the UAE who played a key role in the famous Sharjah win.

Similarly, Ajmal in Test cricket was well past his prime in 2014. For 2-3 consecutive series, he was toothless and averaged in excess of 40 if I'm not wrong. His ban proved to be a blessing in disguise because Yasir has made a big difference to our results. We have hardly won a match where Yasir has been poor.

Arthur has done nothing wrong. He showed Hafeez the door which is what everyone wanted; he brought in young players like Babar and Sami to the fold and everyone wanted us to look long-term as well, given the fact that we have a very aging lineup.

He's also on the lookout for an all-rounder which we have lacked over the years. Yes losing a Test to West Indies was a low, but contrary to popular belief, we are not unflappable in the UAE.

South Africa, Sri Lanka and New Zealand have all won Tests in the UAE, while England were literally minutes away from doing so and only bad light saved us.

Now this tour of New Zealand, it's well beyond our abilities. Has nothing to do with Waqar or Arthur. We are not good enough to score runs in difficult conditions and Yasir, our only reliable wicket-taking bowler, is not good enough overseas unless the conditions favor him. We saw that in England already. Some of our fans can't see it but Arthur does, and it was the right call.

I'm not a Waqar hater; I find the criticism he cops quite pathetic because fans of Shehzad, Umar and Afridi etc. have scapegoated him for their failures, but giving him too much credit for our success in Tests is equally ridiculous as well.

Our success in Test cricket is down to Misbah. He made the team solid and reliable because he's an excellent Test captain as long as he's in his comfort zone (slow pitch, preferably bat first) and he was not in his comfort zone in the first Test in New Zealand and that is not Arthur's fault.

Waqar was a tactical failure as captain and he was a tactical failure as coach, but his redeeming quality was that he introduced a culture of discipline and hard work and laid emphasis on fitness.

If Waqar was the Pep Guardiola some are making him to be and the mastermind of our success in Tests, why did he fail miserably in arresting our decline in Limited Overs?

The reason is simple: he had good Test players but poor Limited Overs players, and hence it's time to give this over the top praise of Waqar a rest and there is no need of making Arthur a scapegoat here.

 

[Major]

enjoyed the Junaid read, and always enjoy Mamoons post

congrats to both

 

[moghul]

Well deserved both posts, enjoyed.

 

[Haroon786]

Fantastic posts, congratulations to the two, both very fine posters.

From my memory, thus is the first time we've had a joint POTW and it has been deserved tbh - very high quality.

 

[Speedster777]

Congrats, well deserved.

 

[msb314]

Solid posts from both - well deserved!

When I had read both - I instantly knowed both were POTW-worthy!

 

[Hasan123]

Quality posts, congrats guys.

 

[SLcric123]

Congrats..

 

[Bilal7]

Great reads. Good job, sirs. Hoping from many more from you too.

 

[Bilal7]

Fantastic posts, congratulations to the two, both very fine posters.

From my memory, thus is the first time we've had a joint POTW and it has been deserved tbh - very high quality.

I remember [MENTION=65416]Ironcat[/MENTION] and one other poster once got joint-POTW for an entire one-page debate they were having over Misbah ul Haq.

 

[Junaids]

Thanks for the kind words, and I loved the post by [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION].

I think that [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] raises the same issues as, ironically, Mohammad Asif.

Until the readmission of South Africa (which was only the length of Jacques Kallis' career ago) Pakistan was always viewed as the only Asian team likely to succeed on Test tours outside Asia.

There were two reasons.

Firstly, a significant number of the players had contracts to play English county cricket and had developed a technique to bat or bowl in conditions with lateral movement. Secondly, pitches in Pakistan were not flat and dead like pitches in India.

The UAE domicile is actually making things worse, much worse. Pakistan can beat teams with no decent spinners in the UAE, but even New Zealand and the West Indies have won Tests there after they quickly adapted to the absence of bounce. But in the other direction the Pakistani players have become much worse at coping with conditions outside Asia.

Go back to the mid-1990s.

A Pakistan team which was scarred by matchfixing won a Test series in England 2-0, drew a Test series 1-1 in South Africa and lost 2-1 in Australia, as well as winning 2-1 in New Zealand and then 1-0 a year later.

Misbah has made Pakistan very hard to beat in the UAE and in Asia.

But it's time to give Mickey Arthur and a new, aggressive skipper control of the Test team, and to move a significant proportion of the "home" Tests to a venue such as South Africa or England. Because if that happens, Pakistan can again be a team which can compete anywhere.

Ironically, I think that Umar Akmal has benefitted from having played every Test of his career outside Asia (apart from 5 balls faced in Dubai). He has not adapted his technique to the slow, flat wickets in the UAE and presumably if and when Mickey Arthur gets him back in the Test team he can work with a guy who played 16 Tests, of which 15 were outside Asia, in which he averaged 37.00.

What wouldn't Pakistan give now for a middle-order batsman whose overall average away in Australia, England and New Zealand is 37.18!

 

[Mamoon]

Thanks, but Junaids' post deserved the award a lot more.

 

[Mamoon]

Thanks for the kind words, and I loved the post by [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION].

I think that [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] raises the same issues as, ironically, Mohammad Asif.

Until the readmission of South Africa (which was only the length of Jacques Kallis' career ago) Pakistan was always viewed as the only Asian team likely to succeed on Test tours outside Asia.

There were two reasons.

Firstly, a significant number of the players had contracts to play English county cricket and had developed a technique to bat or bowl in conditions with lateral movement. Secondly, pitches in Pakistan were not flat and dead like pitches in India.

The UAE domicile is actually making things worse, much worse. Pakistan can beat teams with no decent spinners in the UAE, but even New Zealand and the West Indies have won Tests there after they quickly adapted to the absence of bounce. But in the other direction the Pakistani players have become much worse at coping with conditions outside Asia.

Go back to the mid-1990s.

A Pakistan team which was scarred by matchfixing won a Test series in England 2-0, drew a Test series 1-1 in South Africa and lost 2-1 in Australia, as well as winning 2-1 in New Zealand and then 1-0 a year later.

Misbah has made Pakistan very hard to beat in the UAE and in Asia.

But it's time to give Mickey Arthur and a new, aggressive skipper control of the Test team, and to move a significant proportion of the "home" Tests to a venue such as South Africa or England. Because if that happens, Pakistan can again be a team which can compete anywhere.

Ironically, I think that Umar Akmal has benefitted from having played every Test of his career outside Asia (apart from 5 balls faced in Dubai). He has not adapted his technique to the slow, flat wickets in the UAE and presumably if and when Mickey Arthur gets him back in the Test team he can work with a guy who played 16 Tests, of which 15 were outside Asia, in which he averaged 37.00.

What wouldn't Pakistan give now for a middle-order batsman whose overall average away in Australia, England and New Zealand is 37.18!

I'm apprehensive about the feasibility of playing home matches outside Asia, but playing the UAE is going to have long-term consequences on the brand of cricket that we play. We are seeing the impact already - never in our history - at least not in my memory, have he had so many strokeless wonders in one lineup.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Excellent posts, congrats to both posters.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] Well Done Guys Top Stuff !!

People might disagree with these two, many a times but I must say that both these blokes are probably one of the reasons, cricket content on this discussion board is absolutely THE BEST.

Them along with [MENTION=43242]Dr_Bassim[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] [MENTION=139664]street cricketer[/MENTION], [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] and of course [MENTION=9]Saj[/MENTION] and [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION] make a very interesting core of individuals that have kept the quality of this Forum absolutely high !!

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Congrats Mamoon and Junaids.

Both add a lot of personality to the way they write so its always interesting to hear what they have got to say.

Mamoon keeps piling them POTWs. Has got 5 already. More to come.

Junaids is at 2. But with the rate at which he is opening new threads, he is gonna get a lot more POTWs in the future.

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] Well Done Guys Top Stuff !!

People might disagree with these two, many a times but I must say that both these blokes are probably one of the reasons, cricket content on this discussion board is absolutely THE BEST.

Them along with [MENTION=43242]Dr_Bassim[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] [MENTION=139664]street cricketer[/MENTION], [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] and of course [MENTION=9]Saj[/MENTION] and [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION] make a very interesting core of individuals that have kept the quality of this Forum absolutely high !!

Haha...thank you.

 

[jeetu]

Congrats to both winners.

 

[Nil Dhumrojal]

Two of the great posters here in pp and they are two of my favorite posters along with [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] and others.
Congrats to both. They deserve this.Good selection [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION].

 

[Nil Dhumrojal]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] Well Done Guys Top Stuff !!

People might disagree with these two, many a times but I must say that both these blokes are probably one of the reasons, cricket content on this discussion board is absolutely THE BEST.

Them along with [MENTION=43242]Dr_Bassim[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] [MENTION=139664]street cricketer[/MENTION], [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] and of course [MENTION=9]Saj[/MENTION] and [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION] make a very interesting core of individuals that have kept the quality of this Forum absolutely high !!

Fully agreed with every words and yeah all of them(you mentioned) are the reasons along with others for the great quality of pp.Thanks to them.

 

[JaDed]

Congrats to both of them,they put across their points like no one else irrespective of whether one disagrees with them or not the posts are quality.

 

[Mamoon]

Congrats Mamoon and Junaids.

Both add a lot of personality to the way they write so its always interesting to hear what they have got to say.

Mamoon keeps piling them POTWs. Has got 5 already. More to come.

Junaids is at 2. But with the rate at which he is opening new threads, he is gonna get a lot more POTWs in the future.



Haha...thank you.

This is my 6th, got one on Time Pass two weeks ago.

Thanks to you and everyone else for the appreciation.

 

[Sherlock]

Both were excellent posts. Well done lads & much deserved!

 

[samplepiece]

There are so many times that I disagree with both the posters' views but their quality of posting is always very high.

 

[Justcrazy]

Congrats to both.

 

[Protea Fan]

Congrats both

bw where can find other winning posts....is any specific thread available

 

[GLORY OF '92]

Well deserved.

All though I disagree with them most times, their command of English is sublime.

 

[EliteCynical]

Thanks, but Junaids' post deserved the award a lot more.

Congrats. You are a rockstar.

 

[super hitter]

He's never gonna stop.

 

[street cricketer]

Congrats lads! (Junaids is young at heart).

Two of the most interesting personalities of PP.

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

Thanks, but Junaids' post deserved the award a lot more.

No he didn't. Both of you wrote well and were well deserving winners.

It's been a loooong time since I have gotten behind a PP POTW or a QOTW- almost 99% of them have been labored and uninspiring.

But what you both wrote was very good. Ditto for Junaid.

BTW, Junaids' was a very fine post, and I am thankful I could get behind it, as some of his stuff causes me to cringe. But the one in the OP was fine. As was yours.

So enjoy- both of you- a PP award that's for once worth it and well deserved. Won't happen again in along time, IMO.

 

[Sachin136]

Congrats both

bw where can find other winning posts....is any specific thread available

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/search.php?searchid=610248

 

[Rayyman]

Congrats guys.

 

[Abdullah719]

Congrats [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]. Quality posts as usual.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/search.php?searchid=610248

Search links usually only work for the user who initiated the search.

[MENTION=142471]Protea Fan[/MENTION]

Go here: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/search.php?search_type=1&contenttype=vBForum_Post&forumchoice[]=9

Under 'Search for Posts', type POTW in the Keyword(s) section. Change the 'Search Entire Posts' option to 'Search Titles Only' and click on 'Search Now.

 

[Syed1]

Congrats to both..

I generally shy away from reading novel length posts, but based on the reputation of both posters I'm sure both posts are worthy winner of this weeks POTW.

 

[Saj]

Very good posts from both guys.

 

[MMHS]

This should be 0.5 for each

But, both worthy of 1 separately
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] - boss, I didn't appreciate that time, for your attempt to defame Fred Truman. It's game between ball & bat - since, Hervey's 48 average is equivalent to 68 now; Truman's 21 should be equivalent to 30 as well - that's Imran Khan class (unfortunately the other Imran Khan) - other way to explain is - during Hervey's time; almost every team had an Imran (this time the original one), a Viv, a Lara, a Kallis, a Warne & a Wasim in their playing XI - therefore .... you know...... cricket was in 10th cloud that time.

@ Mamoon - wonderful post, I prepared almost similar something for that thread, but that would have been over kill after this, therefore didn't post.


----------------------------
I do argue with these two gentleman lot, only because I do bother to read their post & feel the urge to respond.

Kudos.

 

[Buffet]

Well written posts here. Great going guys..

 

[Protea Fan]

Congrats [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]. Quality posts as usual.



Search links usually only work for the user who initiated the search.

[MENTION=142471]Protea Fan[/MENTION]

Go here: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/search.php?search_type=1&contenttype=vBForum_Post&forumchoice[]=9

Under 'Search for Posts', type POTW in the Keyword(s) section. Change the 'Search Entire Posts' option to 'Search Titles Only' and click on 'Search Now.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/search.php?searchid=610248

Thanks......

 

[EliteCynical]

Congrats [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]. I may not necessarily agree with everything that you post, but credit where due. It was was special post. Enjoyed reading it.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Congratulations Brothers.

Potential Professional Cricket Writers.

MashaAllah.

 

[Mamoon]

Many thanks again.

 

[zn426]

Thanks for the kind words, and I loved the post by [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION].

I think that [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] raises the same issues as, ironically, Mohammad Asif.

Until the readmission of South Africa (which was only the length of Jacques Kallis' career ago) Pakistan was always viewed as the only Asian team likely to succeed on Test tours outside Asia.

There were two reasons.

Firstly, a significant number of the players had contracts to play English county cricket and had developed a technique to bat or bowl in conditions with lateral movement. Secondly, pitches in Pakistan were not flat and dead like pitches in India.

The UAE domicile is actually making things worse, much worse. Pakistan can beat teams with no decent spinners in the UAE, but even New Zealand and the West Indies have won Tests there after they quickly adapted to the absence of bounce. But in the other direction the Pakistani players have become much worse at coping with conditions outside Asia.

Go back to the mid-1990s.

A Pakistan team which was scarred by matchfixing won a Test series in England 2-0, drew a Test series 1-1 in South Africa and lost 2-1 in Australia, as well as winning 2-1 in New Zealand and then 1-0 a year later.

Misbah has made Pakistan very hard to beat in the UAE and in Asia.

But it's time to give Mickey Arthur and a new, aggressive skipper control of the Test team, and to move a significant proportion of the "home" Tests to a venue such as South Africa or England. Because if that happens, Pakistan can again be a team which can compete anywhere.

Ironically, I think that Umar Akmal has benefitted from having played every Test of his career outside Asia (apart from 5 balls faced in Dubai). He has not adapted his technique to the slow, flat wickets in the UAE and presumably if and when Mickey Arthur gets him back in the Test team he can work with a guy who played 16 Tests, of which 15 were outside Asia, in which he averaged 37.00.

What wouldn't Pakistan give now for a middle-order batsman whose overall average away in Australia, England and New Zealand is 37.18!

They really should play full-time in England if no one will play them in Pakistan. You saw it during the tour there-the stands were full time and time again. English county cricket would also benefit since they would have two full-member sides using their stadiums rather than just one. You could also deploy young, promising players to play in county cricket to improve their skills.

 

[Mamoon]

They really should play full-time in England if no one will play them in Pakistan. You saw it during the tour there-the stands were full time and time again. English county cricket would also benefit since they would have two full-member sides using their stadiums rather than just one. You could also deploy young, promising players to play in county cricket to improve their skills.

We will lose home advantage by playing full time in England, and not to mention how impractical it is in terms of scheduling.

We will repeatedly get whitewashed by the likes of England, Australia, SA, NZ etc. if we play in England in early summer where the conditions are damp.

We will compete in July-August like we did last summer but even then, we will lose our home advantage. There is no option but to play our home matches in the UAE, which is the only feasible venue where no F/C cricket is played and thus there is no scheduling conflicts, and also has a sizable population of Pakistani expats.


However, we must find a way to bring Test cricket back to Pakistan within the next 5-6 years, or else we will produce another generation of strokeless wonders.

 

[waleed88]

Congratulations to both of you!!