- Joined
- Oct 2, 2004
- Runs
- 217,890
Is there anyone who can deny POTW for this post?! 
Well done [MENTION=107807]Pete Rose[/MENTION]
Well done [MENTION=107807]Pete Rose[/MENTION]
For the most part when folks on the forum think about ODI greats, there’s consensus about who deserves it and who doesn’t. The names roll off the tongue easily enough. Where debate gets more charged, I suppose, is about players having ATG numbers but not necessarily being thought of as match-winners. The typic funnel for analysis on odi batting is pretty much like this: run tally, average, strike rate, batting position, then measuring the same numbers against tougher opposition, home and away, batting first or second, batting in tournaments, and batting in finals.
So I decided to follow the same rabbit hole, but the cut-off was for batsmen scoring 8,000 and above. As a result, I have ended up excluding odi greats from a previous era or with lesser run tallies (dean jones, Richards, salim malik, Zaheer abbas, cronje, Kirsten, fairbrother, etc etc).
The second bit, was about adding a few more derived stats to see if they add any further color to the batting records: some of these stats are: % of runs scored in boundaries, % boundary scoring balls, non-boundary strike rate (= runs scored excluding boundaries divide by balls faced excluding boundary balls, gap in averages in wins, when chasing in wins, or in world-cups, final etc).
I must report, unfortunately, (some of you might stop reading after the first few lines below), the consensus on ATG batting holds true in most cases.
Overall Batting Record
[table=class:grid][tr][td]Player[/td][td]Games[/td][td]Runs[/td][td]Ave[/td][td]SR[/td][td]100's[/td][td]50's[/td][td]% runs in boundaries[/td][td]% balls in boundaries[/td][td]% balls hit for 6[/td][td]Non boundary SR[/td][td]% of scores> 50[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SR Tendulkar (INDIA)[/td][td]463[/td][td]18426[/td][td]44.83[/td][td]86.23[/td][td]49[/td][td]96[/td][td]50%[/td][td]10%[/td][td]8.8%[/td][td] 47.98 [/td][td]32%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]KC Sangakkara (Asia/ICC/SL)[/td][td]404[/td][td]14234[/td][td]41.98[/td][td]78.86[/td][td]25[/td][td]93[/td][td]43%[/td][td]8%[/td][td]6.0%[/td][td] 49.27 [/td][td]31%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RT Ponting (AUS/ICC)[/td][td]375[/td][td]13704[/td][td]42.03[/td][td]80.39[/td][td]30[/td][td]82[/td][td]43%[/td][td]8%[/td][td]11.6%[/td][td] 49.88 [/td][td]31%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ST Jayasuriya (Asia/SL)[/td][td]445[/td][td]13430[/td][td]32.36[/td][td]91.2[/td][td]28[/td][td]68[/td][td]57%[/td][td]12%[/td][td]15.3%[/td][td] 44.85 [/td][td]22%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DPMD Jayawardene (Asia/SL)[/td][td]448[/td][td]12650[/td][td]33.37[/td][td]78.96[/td][td]19[/td][td]77[/td][td]39%[/td][td]7%[/td][td]6.4%[/td][td] 52.02 [/td][td]23%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Inzamam-ul-Haq (Asia/PAK)[/td][td]378[/td][td]11739[/td][td]39.52[/td][td]74.24[/td][td]10[/td][td]83[/td][td]40%[/td][td]7%[/td][td]12.9%[/td][td] 47.57 [/td][td]27%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JH Kallis (Afr/ICC/SA)[/td][td]328[/td][td]11579[/td][td]44.36[/td][td]72.89[/td][td]17[/td][td]86[/td][td]39%[/td][td]7%[/td][td]13.1%[/td][td] 47.94 [/td][td]33%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SC Ganguly (Asia/INDIA)[/td][td]311[/td][td]11363[/td][td]41.02[/td][td]73.7[/td][td]22[/td][td]72[/td][td]50%[/td][td]9%[/td][td]14.5%[/td][td] 40.66 [/td][td]31%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Dravid (Asia/ICC/INDIA)[/td][td]344[/td][td]10889[/td][td]39.16[/td][td]71.24[/td][td]12[/td][td]83[/td][td]37%[/td][td]6%[/td][td]4.2%[/td][td] 47.84 [/td][td]30%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]BC Lara (ICC/WI)[/td][td]299[/td][td]10405[/td][td]40.48[/td][td]79.51[/td][td]19[/td][td]63[/td][td]47%[/td][td]9%[/td][td]11.4%[/td][td] 45.87 [/td][td]28%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]TM Dilshan (SL)[/td][td]330[/td][td]10290[/td][td]39.27[/td][td]86.23[/td][td]22[/td][td]47[/td][td]46%[/td][td]10%[/td][td]4.7%[/td][td] 51.23 [/td][td]23%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MS Dhoni (Asia/INDIA)[/td][td]315[/td][td]9912[/td][td]51.35[/td][td]88.38[/td][td]10[/td][td]67[/td][td]44%[/td][td]9%[/td][td]22.0%[/td][td] 54.26 [/td][td]29%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mohammad Yousuf (Asia/PAK)[/td][td]288[/td][td]9720[/td][td]41.71[/td][td]75.1[/td][td]15[/td][td]64[/td][td]38%[/td][td]7%[/td][td]10.3%[/td][td] 50.05 [/td][td]29%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AC Gilchrist (AUS/ICC)[/td][td]287[/td][td]9619[/td][td]35.89[/td][td]96.94[/td][td]16[/td][td]55[/td][td]58%[/td][td]13%[/td][td]11.4%[/td][td] 47.35 [/td][td]25%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AB de Villiers (Afr/SA)[/td][td]225[/td][td]9515[/td][td]54.06[/td][td]101.07[/td][td]25[/td][td]53[/td][td]48%[/td][td]11%[/td][td]19.5%[/td][td] 59.25 [/td][td]36%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CH Gayle (ICC/WI)[/td][td]275[/td][td]9420[/td][td]37.23[/td][td]85.56[/td][td]22[/td][td]48[/td][td]61%[/td][td]12%[/td][td]19.4%[/td][td] 37.99 [/td][td]26%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]M Azharuddin (INDIA)[/td][td]334[/td][td]9378[/td][td]36.92[/td][td]74.02[/td][td]7[/td][td]58[/td][td]31%[/td][td]6%[/td][td]11.0%[/td][td] 53.70 [/td][td]21%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]V Kohli (INDIA)[/td][td]205[/td][td]9348[/td][td]57.34[/td][td]91.89[/td][td]34[/td][td]45[/td][td]43%[/td][td]9%[/td][td]10.5%[/td][td] 57.38 [/td][td]40%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]PA de Silva (SL)[/td][td]308[/td][td]9284[/td][td]34.9[/td][td]81.13[/td][td]11[/td][td]64[/td][td]37%[/td][td]7%[/td][td]12.5%[/td][td] 54.79 [/td][td]25%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Saeed Anwar (PAK)[/td][td]247[/td][td]8824[/td][td]39.21[/td][td]80.67[/td][td]20[/td][td]43[/td][td]49%[/td][td]9%[/td][td]9.4%[/td][td] 45.34 [/td][td]26%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]S Chanderpaul (WI)[/td][td]268[/td][td]8778[/td][td]41.6[/td][td]70.74[/td][td]11[/td][td]59[/td][td]39%[/td][td]7%[/td][td]10.5%[/td][td] 46.38 [/td][td]28%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Yuvraj Singh (Asia/INDIA)[/td][td]304[/td][td]8701[/td][td]36.55[/td][td]87.67[/td][td]14[/td][td]52[/td][td]52%[/td][td]11%[/td][td]14.6%[/td][td] 46.71 [/td][td]24%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DL Haynes (WI)[/td][td]238[/td][td]8648[/td][td]41.37[/td][td]63.09[/td][td]17[/td][td]57[/td][td]39%[/td][td]6%[/td][td]6.5%[/td][td] 40.80 [/td][td]31%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MS Atapattu (SL)[/td][td]268[/td][td]8529[/td][td]37.57[/td][td]67.72[/td][td]11[/td][td]59[/td][td]35%[/td][td]6%[/td][td]2.0%[/td][td] 46.46 [/td][td]27%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ME Waugh (AUS)[/td][td]244[/td][td]8500[/td][td]39.35[/td][td]76.9[/td][td]18[/td][td]50[/td][td]35%[/td][td]6%[/td][td]8.1%[/td][td] 53.69 [/td][td]29%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]V Sehwag (Asia/ICC/INDIA)[/td][td]251[/td][td]8273[/td][td]35.05[/td][td]104.33[/td][td]15[/td][td]38[/td][td]65%[/td][td]16%[/td][td]10.7%[/td][td] 43.97 [/td][td]22%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HH Gibbs (SA)[/td][td]248[/td][td]8094[/td][td]36.13[/td][td]83.26[/td][td]21[/td][td]37[/td][td]55%[/td][td]11%[/td][td]12.1%[/td][td] 41.63 [/td][td]24%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Shahid Afridi (Asia/ICC/PAK)[/td][td]398[/td][td]8064[/td][td]23.57[/td][td]117[/td][td]6[/td][td]39[/td][td]62%[/td][td]16%[/td][td]32.5%[/td][td] 52.28 [/td][td]12%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SP Fleming (ICC/NZ)[/td][td]280[/td][td]8037[/td][td]32.4[/td][td]71.49[/td][td]8[/td][td]49[/td][td]46%[/td][td]8%[/td][td]7.1%[/td][td] 42.17 [/td][td]21%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HM Amla (SA)[/td][td]161[/td][td]7421[/td][td]50.48[/td][td]89.15[/td][td]26[/td][td]34[/td][td]45%[/td][td]10%[/td][td]6.4%[/td][td] 54.70 [/td][td]38%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GC Smith (SA)[/td][td]197[/td][td]6989[/td][td]37.98[/td][td]80.81[/td][td]10[/td][td]47[/td][td]44%[/td][td]8%[/td][td]12.0%[/td][td] 49.50 [/td][td]29%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RG Sharma (INDIA)[/td][td]177[/td][td]6459[/td][td]44.54[/td][td]86.93[/td][td]16[/td][td]34[/td][td]50%[/td][td]10%[/td][td]22.9%[/td][td] 48.42 [/td][td]29%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ML Hayden (AUS/ICC)[/td][td]161[/td][td]6133[/td][td]43.8[/td][td]78.96[/td][td]10[/td][td]36[/td][td]50%[/td][td]9%[/td][td]12.0%[/td][td] 43.54 [/td][td]30%[/td][/tr][/table]
If I look at the batsmen who have scored > 10,000 runs: purely in terms of average and strike rates, SRT is peerless: to score that many runs at such a high strike rate, for so long is just phenomenal. The number 2 for me is (keeping in mind avg and sr) is not Sangakkara: its between Ponting and Lara. I would choose Ponting above Lara despite their similar avg and strike rate because Ponting rotates the strike better (i.e. his non-boundary strike rate is higher). On all the other guys, ppl will no doubt have strong opinions, but I will highlight the relative timidity of Kallis. Look at the similarity of average and % of scores > 50 between Kallis and Tendulkar. Both these guys average a bit of over 44 and score > 50 equally, but Kallis has a comparatively awful strike rate of 72. I always saw him as a player who worried about his stats.
If one looks at the % of runs scored in boundaries, it confirms memory and assumptions that we all have about the ‘types’ of these players: the % of runs in boundaries is 50% and above for only three batsmen: SRT, Ganguly, and Jayasuria. Most would agree that these guys are hard hitting batsmen and it shows in this boundary contribution (and for guys like Afridi, Gayle, Gilchrist).
The batsmen with 9,000 runs is quite a diverse list featuring old timers like deSliva, Azharuddin, and then Kohli being the newest. Setting aside the older guys, two comparative batsmen basis average and SR are Gayle and Gilchrist. Between these two I would give it Gilchrist because of the higher strike rate and better strike rotation.
I think Dhoni’s numbers are phenomenal whichever way you slice it, but for the moment he becomes second best now because the two other guys in this grouping are Kohli and deVilliers. Basis the measures used above the two are neck and neck. What separates them is the higher avg for Kohli vs. the higher strike rate for deVilliers. Whom would you choose? I would choose the guy with higher average because it means he wins more with a marginally low level of risk, but is that really true? We’ll see.
Before we move one, I want to admire the non-boundary strike rate = strike rotation for Kohli and deVilliers; it is head and shoulders above anyone on this list and it’s the reason why they might (depending on how much silverware they personally win) end up being rated higher than Tendulkar when they are done.
The rest of this list is the guys with 8,000 runs and three ppl I was curious about: Graeme Smith, Rohit Sharma, and Matty Hayden. In this bracket, other than laughing at Afridi’s average, the only interesting bit is Amla. Just by his numbers I think he is a significant upgrade on Kallis but a notch below Kohli and deVilliers.
Time to separate the men from the boys.
What you want to see from match-winning batsmen is that they shine when the team wins and that they show they can chase. Below you see the gap in average in two situations: in wins, and in wins when batting second.
I have combined the two tables, but here you see the real trend come out.
Dhoni would probably have been the best finisher/pressure player in the odi game had it not been for Kohli and deVilliers. The numbers show how central he has been to India’s wins and when the pressure is on.
[table=class:grid][tr][td]In matches won[/td][td]Avg gap vs career[/td][td]In matches won batting second[/td][td]Avg gap vs career[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]BC Lara (ICC/WI)[/td][td] 21.34 [/td][td]MS Dhoni (INDIA)[/td][td]51.53[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MS Dhoni (Asia/INDIA)[/td][td] 21.21 [/td][td]V Kohli (INDIA)[/td][td]37.70[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]V Kohli (INDIA)[/td][td] 19.51 [/td][td]AB de Villiers (SA)[/td][td]30.60[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]PA de Silva (SL)[/td][td] 15.66 [/td][td]BC Lara (WI)[/td][td]28.10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HM Amla (SA)[/td][td] 15.44 [/td][td]SP Fleming (NZ)[/td][td]28.10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]S Chanderpaul (WI)[/td][td] 15.18 [/td][td]Mohammad Yousuf (PAK)[/td][td]24.25[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CH Gayle (ICC/WI)[/td][td] 14.32 [/td][td]Saeed Anwar (PAK)[/td][td]23.83[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MS Atapattu (SL)[/td][td] 14.26 [/td][td]Inzamam-ul-Haq (PAK)[/td][td]23.61[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mohammad Yousuf (Asia/PAK)[/td][td] 14.16 [/td][td]TM Dilshan (SL)[/td][td]22.96[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SC Ganguly (Asia/INDIA)[/td][td] 14.04 [/td][td]MS Atapattu (SL)[/td][td]22.76[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Yuvraj Singh (Asia/INDIA)[/td][td] 13.51 [/td][td]PA de Silva (SL)[/td][td]22.55[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AB de Villiers (Afr/SA)[/td][td] 12.36 [/td][td]CH Gayle (WI)[/td][td]21.09[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Saeed Anwar (PAK)[/td][td] 11.97 [/td][td]DPMD Jayawardene (SL)[/td][td]20.35[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SR Tendulkar (INDIA)[/td][td] 11.80 [/td][td]M Azharuddin (INDIA)[/td][td]20.32[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Inzamam-ul-Haq (Asia/PAK)[/td][td] 11.74 [/td][td]Yuvraj Singh (INDIA)[/td][td]17.68[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Dravid (INDIA)[/td][td] 11.53 [/td][td]GC Smith (SA)[/td][td]17.22[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]V Sehwag (Asia/INDIA)[/td][td] 11.30 [/td][td]SC Ganguly (INDIA)[/td][td]15.68[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]M Azharuddin (INDIA)[/td][td] 11.08 [/td][td]RT Ponting (AUS)[/td][td]15.31[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]TM Dilshan (SL)[/td][td] 10.62 [/td][td]S Chanderpaul (WI)[/td][td]12.75[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SP Fleming (ICC/NZ)[/td][td] 10.31 [/td][td]JH Kallis (SA)[/td][td]12.06[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DPMD Jayawardene (Asia/SL)[/td][td] 8.96 [/td][td]ME Waugh (AUS)[/td][td]12.02[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ST Jayasuriya (Asia/SL)[/td][td] 8.90 [/td][td]AC Gilchrist (AUS)[/td][td]10.98[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RG Sharma (INDIA)[/td][td] 8.51 [/td][td]SR Tendulkar (INDIA)[/td][td]10.62[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ME Waugh (AUS)[/td][td] 7.94 [/td][td]Shahid Afridi (PAK)[/td][td]9.05[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DL Haynes (WI)[/td][td] 7.68 [/td][td]RG Sharma (INDIA)[/td][td]8.41[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RT Ponting (AUS/ICC)[/td][td] 7.17 [/td][td]KC Sangakkara (SL)[/td][td]7.70[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JH Kallis (Afr/SA)[/td][td] 6.82 [/td][td]ST Jayasuriya (SL)[/td][td]7.56[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GC Smith (SA)[/td][td] 6.70 [/td][td]V Sehwag (INDIA)[/td][td]5.93[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]KC Sangakkara (Asia/SL)[/td][td] 6.56 [/td][td]ML Hayden (AUS)[/td][td]5.77[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Shahid Afridi (Asia/PAK)[/td][td] 6.52 [/td][td]R Dravid (INDIA)[/td][td]5.66[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AC Gilchrist (AUS/ICC)[/td][td] 5.27 [/td][td]DL Haynes (WI)[/td][td]5.40[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HH Gibbs (SA)[/td][td] 4.32 [/td][td]HH Gibbs (SA)[/td][td]4.51[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ML Hayden (AUS/ICC)[/td][td] 0.81 [/td][td]HM Amla (SA)[/td][td]3.09[/td][/tr][/table]
The debate between Lara and Tendulkar is worth having: just who was the better player – consider how Lara lifts his game vs. how Tendulkar lifts his game. Lara has a bigger role in his team’s wins than Tendulkar’s. But at the end of the day the weight of 18k odd runs at a higher strike does matter. My assumption is that over a long career all things even out (I.e. how many times did Tendulkar play Sri Lanka vs. Lara etc). More importantly, despite lifting his game, Lara has no silverware. Its an interesting debate to have.
Ponting ranks remarkably lower down the order on these tables; could it be that he played most of his career in all-conquering team that was rarely put under pressure? I haven’t really looked, but all I know is that his team sure has won a lot of finals.
Which brings us to Kohli vs deVilliers ; in both cases there is a clear gap between Kohli and deVilliers: the former wins it. But its not shame to second or third in a list that has Lara, Dhoni, and Kohli.
I have never really rated Amla or Kallis and this table shows why: while Kallis doesn’t really step up in the big moments, Amla at least shines in his team’s wins. But Amla’s softness is on display when batting second, he ranks last. I want to emphasize that these are perfectly respectable averages, but when you are looking for match-winners you must judge them relative to each other in tough situations.
A special shout out to Pakistan’s trio of Inzi, Anwar, and Yousuf. They might not set the aggregates on fire, but they do contribute significantly to their team’s wins.
One of the criticisms of the trio of modern batsmen is that the have not won too many trophies or failed in finals. Maybe I will do another thread on that.
