Schism in the Anglican Church community

[RexRex]

The baker wouldn’t go to jail, but would face a fine by the state if found guilty in criminal court. If the gay Robert told the Police.

So there is no freedom of religion in the UK then.

 

[RexRex]

Homosexuality was illegal until recently in UK, due to Leviticus. Still is, in most of the majority-Christian parts of Africa.

You are confused.

Mosaic law = civil law + moral law.

The moral law bit is what applies to Christianity. So, while homosexuality is still 'immoral' as per the Church's teaching, the punishments or restrictions of ancient Israel (civil law) don't apply to the christians of today. All the moral bits in Leviticus still hold, which is why I'm guessing homosexuality was illegal in the UK till the 60s.

 

[Robert]

You are confused.

Mosaic law = civil law + moral law.

The moral law bit is what applies to Christianity. So, while homosexuality is still 'immoral' as per the Church's teaching, the punishments or restrictions of ancient Israel (civil law) don't apply to the christians of today. All the moral bits in Leviticus still hold, which is why I'm guessing homosexuality was illegal in the UK till the 60s.

I don't understand what we are arguing about. You appear to accept that Mosaic law is still extant. In which case, Jesus didn't abolish it, as per the line in Matthew.

 

[RexRex]

I don't understand what we are arguing about. You appear to accept that Mosaic law is still extant. In which case, Jesus didn't abolish it, as per the line in Matthew.

Aren't you the one who brought up pork, shellfish and leather handbags ? I am telling you none of those quirks you got from the Old Testament is applicable to christians today since that was the part of Mosaic 'civil law' at the time. Jesus has abrogated that bit and that is evident by his teachings in the Gospel of Matthew.

Why is this hard to understand ?

 

[Robert]

Aren't you the one who brought up pork, shellfish and leather handbags ? I am telling you none of those quirks you got from the Old Testament is applicable to christians today since that was the part of Mosaic 'civil law' at the time. Jesus has abrogated that bit and that is evident by his teachings in the Gospel of Matthew.

Why is this hard to understand ?

It's easy to understand. Just... wrong.

Actually some Christians won't eat pork. But that's in 2023 CE. I'm talking about 33 CE, the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus said Mosaic Law remains extant in Matthew 5.18 (assuming you accept that the English translation from the Hebrew is accurate).

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Aren't you the one who brought up pork, shellfish and leather handbags ? I am telling you none of those quirks you got from the Old Testament is applicable to christians today since that was the part of Mosaic 'civil law' at the time. Jesus has abrogated that bit and that is evident by his teachings in the Gospel of Matthew.

Why is this hard to understand ?

Christians must distance themselves from Old Testament which shows God as a vengeful genocidal mad man.

 

[sweep_shot]

Christians must distance themselves from Old Testament which shows God as a vengeful genocidal mad man.

Very foolish statement.

Talk about audacity.

 

[Technics 1210]

Christians must distance themselves from Old Testament which shows God as a vengeful genocidal mad man.

The Old Testament is the Torah (First 5 books, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy).

Did you know this?

You are saying that Christians should distance themselves from the Jews.

 

[Champ_Pal]

The Old Testament is the Torah (First 5 books, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy).

Did you know this?

You are saying that Christians should distance themselves from the Jews.

With the arrival of Jesus, Christians are under a new covenant. God the Father that Jesus prays to is loving and nothing like the Old Testament God.

 

[sweep_shot]

With the arrival of Jesus, Christians are under a new covenant. God the Father that Jesus prays to is loving and nothing like the Old Testament God.

Are you saying God of Christians is different than God of Jews? LOL.

I know Indians believe in many gods but try to use your brain.

The other day, you were bashing Matt Walsh for being a Christian fundamentalist. You are now suddenly a defender of new testament.

You are not very consistent in your posts.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Are you saying God of Christians is different than God of Jews? LOL.

I know Indians believe in many gods but try to use your brain.

The other day, you were bashing Matt Walsh for being a Christian fundamentalist. You are now suddenly a defender of new testament.

You are not very consistent in your posts.

I am not saying they are different. But the characteristics are so different that it is not the same God anymore. Christians might as well claim that their Yahweh is a different Yahweh.

I don’t defend any religion. I say it as I see it. Matt Walsh is a fundamentalist. But he is not an extremist. I don’t agree with his views on evolution and thrusting Christianity in political and social issues. He does make good points on Trans people and Wokesters.

 

[Technics 1210]

With the arrival of Jesus, Christians are under a new covenant. God the Father that Jesus prays to is loving and nothing like the Old Testament God.

Don't try and wriggle out of this one.

You are saying the god of Jews (old testament), is a "vengeful genocidal mad man."

This makes you an anti-semite. (Going by the standards today).

 

[SalimBhai]

Very foolish statement.

Talk about audacity.

Anyone who has read the old testament would conclude that the god of Old Testament is vengeful genocidal mad man. Another person described the old testament god very well.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

 

[Champ_Pal]

Don't try and wriggle out of this one.

You are saying the god of Jews (old testament), is a "vengeful genocidal mad man."

This makes you an anti-semite. (Going by the standards today).

You want me to sugarcoat the facts? Old Testament is brutal.

 

[Technics 1210]

You want me to sugarcoat the facts? Old Testament is brutal.

Who said the Old Testament is not brutal?

Fact is your are dissing the Old Testament, The Torah, which makes you an anti-semite.

Poor you, didn't do his homework.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Who said the Old Testament is not brutal?

Fact is your are dissing the Old Testament, The Torah, which makes you an anti-semite.

Poor you, didn't do his homework.

I don’t know what your problem is. What homework are you talking about? There is nothing antisemitic in what I posted. Countless comedians and atheists openly criticize Old Testament god before. You are acting as if I am the first one to do it.

 

[Technics 1210]

I don’t know what your problem is. What homework are you talking about? There is nothing antisemitic in what I posted. Countless comedians and atheists openly criticize Old Testament god before. You are acting as if I am the first one to do it.

I have no problem, but you are clearly an anti-semite because you are "insulting" the God of Jews. Going by the liberal judgement of today.

Not my fault you didn't realise the Old Testament is actually the Torah.

This is your problem, not mine.

 

[Champ_Pal]

I have no problem, but you are clearly an anti-semite because you are "insulting" the God of Jews. Going by the liberal judgement of today.

Not my fault you didn't realise the Old Testament is actually the Torah.

This is your problem, not mine.

Insulting God is not insulting a nation of people. I don't have any problem. Torah stories really are brutal. Whoever wrote those stories, they are clearly meant to scare the people to fall in line.

 

[Technics 1210]

Insulting God is not insulting a nation of people.

It is when it come to Jews.

Live up to your Western liberal standards, you're an Anti-Semite.

 

[Champ_Pal]

It is when it come to Jews.

Live up to your Western liberal standards, you're an Anti-Semite.

I am a liberal and I do live by its standards. Just watch on youtube how comedians make fun of old testament god.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Insulting God is not insulting a nation of people. I don't have any problem. Torah stories really are brutal. Whoever wrote those stories, they are clearly meant to scare the people to fall in line.

Torah or Biblical stories were brutal by today's standards certainly, but we would need to examine them against the religious texts of their contemparies to understand the bigger picture.

 

[Robert]

With the arrival of Jesus, Christians are under a new covenant. God the Father that Jesus prays to is loving and nothing like the Old Testament God.

That wasn’t the way I was taught Christianity.

The new covenant refers to salvation through Jesus Christ. Yet the OT stories of Moses, Abraham, Joseph, Daniel and so on are still taught in order to demonstrate the power of faith. The coming of Jesus is supposedly foretold in Isaiah.

 

[Robert]

Torah or Biblical stories were brutal by today's standards certainly, but we would need to examine them against the religious texts of their contemparies to understand the bigger picture.

Old JHVH was a war god. All other religions had to be crushed.

 

[Robert]

So there is no freedom of religion in the UK then.

Sure there is. But no freedom to discriminate.

This is why the Pilgrim Fathers left England. The American myth is that the church and state were intolerant and the PFs wanted religious freedom. But in fact the PFs were oppressors of the Quakers, and the English establishment would not tolerate that intolerance.

 

[Robert]

Anyone who has read the old testament would conclude that the god of Old Testament is vengeful genocidal mad man. Another person described the old testament god very well.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

Is that from Professor Dawkins? Yeah, pretty much.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Old JHVH was a war god. All other religions had to be crushed.

I was thinking more Manusmitri which may have more cultural relevance to hte poster I was quoting.

 

[Robert]

I was thinking more Manusmitri which may have more cultural relevance to hte poster I was quoting.

Is that a reference to Hinduism?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Is that a reference to Hinduism?

Yes, quite an eye opening hindu scripture and probably quite relevant to how the religion shaped empire policies during both Mughal and British periods. I'm thinking it might be time for a deep dive so we can add some time context and get some understanding of how history unfolded in the subcontinent.

 

[SalimBhai]

Is that from Professor Dawkins? Yeah, pretty much.

That is correct

 

[sweep_shot]

That is correct

Richard Dawkins is a pretentious fraud. A big douchebag.

He should be admitted to a mental hospital.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Richard Dawkins is a pretentious fraud. A big douchebag.

He should be admitted to a mental hospital.

Why? His arguments are perfectly alright.

 

[James]

If the four Gospels were written by men who knew Jesus, they wouldn’t differ from each other so much. Paul never met Jesus either.

As I understand it, the Gospels were written after the life of Jesus but were based on oral tradition and contemporary writings, so it’s likely that together in the New Testament they provide a reasonably accurate account. The existence of Jesus is almost universally accepted by historians — it is (some of) the details within which are disagreed upon.

 

[Robert]

Why? His arguments are perfectly alright.

It has always been the prerogative of fools to laugh at kings and emperors.

But the emperor remains the emperor.

And the fool remains a fool.

 

[Robert]

As I understand it, the Gospels were written after the life of Jesus but were based on oral tradition and contemporary writings, so it’s likely that together in the New Testament they provide a reasonably accurate account. The existence of Jesus is almost universally accepted by historians — it is (some of) the details within which are disagreed upon.

I don’t doubt his existence.

But as we know, every time a story is told verbally the signal to noise ratio drops. So the Gospels differ. One can boil them down to the points where they agree. Some academic wrote a paper on that.

 

[James]

Are you saying God of Christians is different than God of Jews?

This to an extent is true.

God in the Torah (Judaism) and the Old Testament is the “One God”, whom the Israelites originally called Yahweh.

God in most schools of Christianity is no longer a singular being and is split into the Trinity — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[James]

I don’t doubt his existence.

But as we know, every time a story is told verbally the signal to noise ratio drops. So the Gospels differ. One can boil them down to the points where they agree. Some academic wrote a paper on that.

The four Gospels likely differ in some areas because different people perceive, memorise and recall the subtle details of events differently. Different people are different.

 

[James]

Richard Dawkins is a pretentious fraud. A big douchebag.

He should be admitted to a mental hospital.

My view nowadays of the “New Atheists” is that they were best off sticking to their original professions.

Christopher Hitchens was more impressive as a literary critic and humour columnist.

Richard Dawkins was more impressive as an evolutionary biologist and a scholar of natural history.

Interestingly, Dawkins now identifies as less of an atheist and more of a cultural Anglican / secular Christian. I’m not sure if he would still stand by everything that he wrote in “The God Delusion”.

 

[James]

Christians must distance themselves from Old Testament which shows God as a vengeful genocidal mad man.

Ok, but the world of 2,500 years ago was an absolutely brutal place. The Old Testament is merely reflecting the social and cultural conditions of a historic human society with a relatively primitive outlook and a largely undeveloped body of law.

 

[sweep_shot]

This to an extent is true.

God in the Torah (Judaism) and the Old Testament is the “One God”, whom the Israelites originally called Yahweh.

God in most schools of Christianity is no longer a singular being and is split into the Trinity — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Trinity was added later. No?

There was nothing called trinity in the first 200 years (approximately).

Even today, there are Christians who reject trinity. Unitarian Christians, for example.

 

[James]

Trinity was added later. No?

There was nothing called trinity in the first 200 years (approximately).

Even today, there are Christians who reject trinity. Unitarian Christians, for example.

Some Christians reject the Trinity, but most do not. Protestant and Roman Catholic are the dominant Christian traditions around the world and they both worship God in a Trinitarian sense.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

This to an extent is true.

God in the Torah (Judaism) and the Old Testament is the “One God”, whom the Israelites originally called Yahweh.

God in most schools of Christianity is no longer a singular being and is split into the Trinity — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Very true.

Its why Jews are not allowed to pray in a church but they can pray in a mosque if needs be.

Jewish scholars also are relatively complimentary of the Prophets message but if I was to write what they say about Jesus (PBUH) and his blessed mother I'd get banned here for foul language.

 

[Technics 1210]

Jesus [PBUH] was born a Jew, lived a Jew, and died a Jew.

Christianity was born out of guilt much later.

Just read up on Saul of Tarsus.

 

[Robert]

Some Christians reject the Trinity, but most do not. Protestant and Roman Catholic are the dominant Christian traditions around the world and they both worship God in a Trinitarian sense.

The Trinity was written at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE. It was the the only way to solve the inherent contradictions.

 

[Robert]

My view nowadays of the “New Atheists” is that they were best off sticking to their original professions.

Christopher Hitchens was more impressive as a literary critic and humour columnist.

Richard Dawkins was more impressive as an evolutionary biologist and a scholar of natural history.

Interestingly, Dawkins now identifies as less of an atheist and more of a cultural Anglican / secular Christian. I’m not sure if he would still stand by everything that he wrote in “The God Delusion”.

I think Prof D ignored the Christian fundies who burned his books for a time, but 9/11 radicalised him. Religion had become a threat to the world and had to be challenged.

Then he spoke with philosophers of a similar level of education and intelligence to him, instead of logically demolishing sad Christians on telly chat shows. He is less sure-footed when engaged in a philosophical basis.