Should moral standards rise above tournament points?

[Gotham Cronie]

We've had the BCCI representatives come out now and they will not play vs Pakistan in a bilateral series as Dawood Ibrahim is allegedly in Karachi.

The prestige of the nation , sentimental of Indians and life of human beings has more value than cricket.

What about come ICC Tournament time, for example the upcoming World Twenty20.

If India ends up having a fixture vs Pakistan in the group or knockout stages, will they hold on to these moral standards? Or will they throw them away chasing those valuable two points?

 

[#GreenRoars]

We've had the BCCI representatives come out now and they will not play vs Pakistan in a bilateral series as Dawood Ibrahim is allegedly in Karachi.

The prestige of the nation , sentimental of Indians and life of human beings has more value than cricket.

What about come ICC Tournament time, for example the upcoming World Twenty20.

If India ends up having a fixture vs Pakistan in the group or knockout stages, will they hold on to these moral standards? Or will they throw them away chasing those valuable two points?

During this time, Dawood will leave Pakistan and will go to some where else.
But when ever next time Pakistan and India tried to play again, Don will come back. And no bilateral series till his death.

 

[11ShadyBrothers]

If India were afraid of defeats they would have never toured England, NZ, SA and Australia in succession. All these teams are better than Pakistan in their home conditions.

This.

I know the point mentioned in OP sounds good to read. Like good for stroking egos and all. However, knowing BCCI. They wont reject any chance of acquiring $ et all.

 

[Ottoman]

During this time, Dawood will leave Pakistan and will go to some where else.
But when ever next time Pakistan and India tried to play again, Don will come back. And no bilateral series till his death.

It shows how weak is GOI, only 1 person can force them to turn their decision. By the way same Dawood has Assets in India, why don't GOI take control of these Assets forces him to return to India.

Modi has also visited UAE, why not they ask UAE to arrest Dawood on his next visit to UAE instead of blaming Pakistan.

 

[RWAC]

They should.

Except this is not a case of taking a moral stance. GOI projects it as such, and I don't know how many Pakistanis believe in it. But it is purely a matter of GOI + BCCI trying to keep Pakistan away from the $$$ and hurt them financially.

Understand that, and maybe half the PP will stop fussing over India-Pakistan series. It's not going to happen as long as GOI + BCCI want to isolate and hurt Pakistan financially. The 2012 series was an aberration.

 

[KevinFern]

Alas each and everything in this world happened for some logical reasons

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[Convict]

The ECB took a stand in the 2003 world cup.

 

[msb314]

The ECB took a stand in the 2003 world cup.

That was different since it was a stand against the entire ZImbabwean government and the security situation in Kenya.

Here we are talking about one particular individual who happens to be Indian and is holed out in Pakistan...

 

[angrypathan]

That was different since it was a stand against the entire ZImbabwean government and the security situation in Kenya.

Here we are talking about one particular individual who happens to be Indian and is holed out in Pakistan...

To be honest if he actually is in Pakistan, then it wouldn't be without the knowledge and permission of the Pakistan government. So I guess it can be argued that this is in extension a stance against the Pakistan Government

 

[Gotham Cronie]

That was different since it was a stand against the entire ZImbabwean government and the security situation in Kenya.

Here we are talking about one particular individual who happens to be Indian and is holed out in Pakistan...

But that one individual is the logic they're using against the PCB to not play against them. The prestige of the nation , sentimental of Indians and life of human beings has more value than cricket.

So will all that go away for a mere two points?

 

[Gotham Cronie]

India Masala news saying that reportedly the PCB will boycott India in global tournaments.

But that makes no sense. It should be India that is forfeiting their matches right? Anything less would be hypocritical.

 

[tempus123]

[MENTION=44808]Gotham Cronie[/MENTION] point is as stupid as BCCI not playing cricket due to Dawood.

 

[Bhaijaan]

You'd come across as extremely dumb if you let teams get walk overs in tournaments. Come tournaments time, you have no option because you're out there to win the tournament for your country. Tournaments are wars, bilaterals are joint training drills which you can always skip in protest. That India does not want to play Pakistan makes sense, but in a tournament scenario, a match is forced to you, you do not hand piuck opponents, they just happen to find you. If Pakistan is good enough to find India in a tournament, the best way out is to play them and knock them out and vice versa for you.

 

[Convict]

You'd come across as extremely dumb if you let teams get walk overs in tournaments. Come tournaments time, you have no option because you're out there to win the tournament for your country. Tournaments are wars, bilaterals are joint training drills which you can always skip in protest. That India does not want to play Pakistan makes sense, but in a tournament scenario, a match is forced to you, you do not hand piuck opponents, they just happen to find you. If Pakistan is good enough to find India in a tournament, the best way out is to play them and knock them out and vice versa for you.

Actually all cricket matches are just games.

If for political reasons your country can not play against another team - then naturally that should extend to all games.

It would be like letting Apartheid era South Africa play sometimes but not all the time.

A moral stance ceases to be moral if you only apply it where it doesn't really matter

 

[Haroon786]

Beating India in India and then rubbing it in would be very satisfying.

 

[MRSN]

Indians are the best hypocrite not referring to all Indians but most who defend BCCI's policies blindly. The OP is right why do the Indians bother playing us in the ICC tournaments when they have problems with playing us normally? Why their morality rules bends when it comes to the ICC tournaments? double standards is common when it comes to Indians and their cricket. Nothing to be surprising. It's not just BCCI who is hypocrite, there are lots of Indians cricket fans who are nothing better.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Actually all cricket matches are just games.

If for political reasons your country can not play against another team - then naturally that should extend to all games.

It would be like letting Apartheid era South Africa play sometimes but not all the time.

A moral stance ceases to be moral if you only apply it where it doesn't really matter

Thats what you think and its ok. A country like India is not bothered by how how random people here and there see things. I explained it all. There is no more or less to it, if playing Pakistan was in bilaterals was a necessity for the sake of Indian cricket, we'd be forced to play bilaterals too because at the end of the day these teams are out there to win glory for the nation.

 

[MRSN]

India Masala news saying that reportedly the PCB will boycott India in global tournaments.

But that makes no sense. It should be India that is forfeiting their matches right? Anything less would be hypocritical.

Why would Pakistan boycott India?We are trying our level best to play cricket with a stubborn,hypocrite cricket board who agrees to play series but later runs away giving poor old excuses.

They keep mentioning about Mumbai incident but what about the train their officer burnt?Lots of innocent lives were lost and the guy who should be behind the bars is scot free because he didn't do crime according to Indians.

 

[bond007]

In DEC-2012 where was daood???
but now a days repeated statements by shahriyar khan, Miandad and all the posts related to PAK-IND series make us look so desperate.We should Just learn and get on with it.life is beyond Indian cricket.

 

[MRSN]

In DEC-2012 where was daood???
but now a days repeated statements by shahriyar khan, Miandad and all the posts related to PAK-IND series make us look so desperate.We should Just learn and get on with it.life is beyond Indian cricket.

It is,that's why PCB taken a massive step to speed up things for PSL but the point stands valid. Why do Indians forget the Mumbai victims in the ICC tournaments?

 

[Haroon786]

It is,that's why PCB taken a massive step to speed up things for PSL but the point stands valid. Why do Indians forget the Mumbai victims in the ICC tournaments?

Immorality ?

 

[bond007]

Immorality ?

forget about Morals. how can hate of Pakistan in society not translate itself in BCCI actions?
they dont need to play with us but in cricket tournaments they can not lose 2 valuable points.

 

[MRSN]

Immorality ?

or double standards or hypocrisy. There are so many words for it.

 

[Haroon786]

forget about Morals. how can hate of Pakistan in society not translate itself in BCCI actions?
they dont need to play with us but in cricket tournaments they can not lose 2 valuable points.

Not sure honestly speaking but usually when they play us its either them on the cusp of being knocked out in the group stages or a knock out match, so made desperate by tournament situation wouldn't be a bad guess.

 

[Indian_Supporter]

But what BCCI is doing is absolutely stupidity. How can stopping a cricket match will help in capturing Dawood is beyond me. There are financial motives of BCCI as far as I can see.

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[sandsaims]

BCCI is just scared of playing us.Rest are just reasons, so what if an international terrorist like Dawood is in Pakistan and our govt is protecting him? We protect a lof of other terrorists too but that is not a good enough reason to stop playing cricket

 

[Convict]

Dawood is in Pakistan. So lets get that thing clear first. There was an interview of Chota Shakil where he mentioned how the officials in Karachi shielding him without disclosing the exact location. I might upload the youtube link later.

Now as a responsible country it is Pakistan govt. duty to handover this criminal back to his country. Its a moral responsibility. He is living in your country a lavish lifestyle without paying any taxes. That is not fair on the general tax paying public of Pakistan as well.

But what BCCI is doing is absolutely stupidity. How can stopping a cricket match will help in capturing Dawood is beyond me. There are financial motives of BCCI as far as I can see.

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Dawood was in Pakistan during the world cup as well.

And the average Indian was so unhappy about getting forced to play Pakistan that the match against Pakistan was the central part of your world cup advertising.

 

[Indian_Supporter]

Dawood was in Pakistan during the world cup as well.

And the average Indian was so unhappy about getting forced to play Pakistan that the match against Pakistan was the central part of your world cup advertising.

Read my post again. I have always said cricket has nothing to do with politics and what BCCI doing is stupidity. India-Pak should play cricket irrespective of political situation.

But that dosent change the fact Dawood is hiding in Karachi.

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[IndianWillow]

Actually all cricket matches are just games.

If for political reasons your country can not play against another team - then naturally that should extend to all games.

It would be like letting Apartheid era South Africa play sometimes but not all the time.

A moral stance ceases to be moral if you only apply it where it doesn't really matter

But bilateral and ICC tournaments are different this way. When India face off Pakistan in an ICC tournament their goal is to win the tournament and not to shake hands with Pakistan. But bilaterals imply shaking hands with Pakistan which India does not want to do at this time.

It is something like this. You live in country A and you want to go to country B, which is a friend of your country. But the air route takes you via country C which happens to be your enemy. While you wouldn't want to land in C and explore that country, if you want to go to B you may tolerate temporarily halting at C because you have no choice.

 

[Convict]

But bilateral and ICC tournaments are different this way. When India face off Pakistan in an ICC tournament their goal is to win the tournament and not to shake hands with Pakistan. But bilaterals imply shaking hands with Pakistan which India does not want to do at this time.

It is something like this. You live in country A and you want to go to country B, which is a friend of your country. But the air route takes you via country C which happens to be your enemy. While you wouldn't want to land in C and explore that country, if you want to go to B you may tolerate temporarily halting at C because you have no choice.

But you know as well as I that the groups stages in ICC are rigged to ensure maximum profit matches.
If the BCCI didn't want to play Pakistan in the group stages they wouldn't.

If Indians were so affronted and angry about having to play Pakistan whilst Dawood hides in Karachi, then the match against Pakistan wouldn't have been such a central part of tv adverts for the world cup.

 

[tempus123]

But you know as well as I that the groups stages in ICC are rigged to ensure maximum profit matches.
If the BCCI didn't want to play Pakistan in the group stages they wouldn't.

If Indians were so affronted and angry about having to play Pakistan whilst Dawood hides in Karachi, then the match against Pakistan wouldn't have been such a central part of tv adverts for the world cup.

The groups are decided not by ICC or BCCI, but by ODI rankings.

 

[jabarjabar]

But you know as well as I that the groups stages in ICC are rigged to ensure maximum profit matches.
If the BCCI didn't want to play Pakistan in the group stages they wouldn't.

If Indians were so affronted and angry about having to play Pakistan whilst Dawood hides in Karachi, then the match against Pakistan wouldn't have been such a central part of tv adverts for the world cup.

Cricket wins when India-Pak plays a game - the host nation wants it, the broadcasters - both Pakistani and Indian - want, the ICC wants it and the cricket world wants it. Apart from that, the relations between the nations are governed by a host of historical, domestic and external factors that you clearly aren't familiar with so probably best not to pontificate.

And the comparison with apartheid South Africa is ludicrous - India does engage with Pakistan on a diplomatic level and the PM's do meet at multilateral events etc so no question of boycotting games against them. Not inviting them to play is only one way the GOI is bilaterally making its displeasure shown. Not that I am in favour of it, but to them it seems like the most practical solution.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

There are two sides to story.

Some people believe that India Pakistan are in a state of war since 1947. The would associate cricket and politics and make it their mission to make sure , it stays war.

Some people believe that sports, cricket, tourism and everything else is different from politics and government matters and should be kept separate.

Personally, I am inclined for the latter because I don't want no war or anything.

But I think more people in India and Pakistan feel the former. Which is why, such moralistic stands mean nothing for most people, who consider this as a 60 year ongoing war.

Without meaning to sound impolite or rude, I bet tearing up India into two parts still hurts most Indians.

 

[walsh_ambrose]

There are two sides to story.

Some people believe that India Pakistan are in a state of war since 1947. The would associate cricket and politics and make it their mission to make sure , it stays war.

that would be a very valid argument. Given the number of scuffles, I'm surprised the two countries even have diplomatic relationship, leave alone trade, cultural and sporting ties. that is probably has to do with Gandhian-nehruvian virus in indian society which has led to PM's like morarji desai and Manmohan singh and rajiv gandhi. but that is entirely India's fault and indian public's fault. Hopefully there will be a cure soon fro this gandhian virus and WKK's will disappear from indian society.

Some people believe that sports, cricket, tourism and everything else is different from politics and government matters and should be kept separate.

Personally, I am inclined for the latter because I don't want no war or anything.

I think you are on the wrong side of history on this one. This is the history.

1) apartheid south africa: Gleneagles agreement

2) Pak boycott of moscow olympics in 1980 allied with USA.

3) Warsaw pact boycott of 1984 olympics in LA

4) Pak pulling out cricket in India after Babri masjid episode in early 90's

There has been plenty of precedence where politics has interfered even with olympics.

It is the game as played by world powers and pak. In bilateral ties, no need to be different.

Without meaning to sound impolite or rude, I bet tearing up India into two parts still hurts most Indians.

It might have been so in true couple of generations ago. I think that generation is dead and gone or almost dead and gone.

No offense, but most of the current generation consider Mr.Jinnah to be Quaid-i-azam for India also, otherwise, the current mess of pak and Bangladesh would have been India's domestic problem instead of a international problem.

 

[Bilal7]

This is a point I have raised in a few other threads too. It is hypocritical on their part to not play any bilateral series but not hold their ground during ICC events. This makes it clear that this whole Dawood Ibrahim issue is just an excuse.

 

[#GreenRoars]

This is a point I have raised in a few other threads too. It is hypocritical on their part to not play any bilateral series but not hold their ground during ICC events. This makes it clear that this whole Dawood Ibrahim issue is just an excuse.

What took you so long to make this decision bro?

 

[IndianWillow]

But you know as well as I that the groups stages in ICC are rigged to ensure maximum profit matches.
If the BCCI didn't want to play Pakistan in the group stages they wouldn't.

If Indians were so affronted and angry about having to play Pakistan whilst Dawood hides in Karachi, then the match against Pakistan wouldn't have been such a central part of tv adverts for the world cup.

The groupings are based on rankings. If there are two groups A and B, I think it is as follows: #1 seeded team goes to group A, #2,3 go to B, #4,5 go to A, #6,7 to B etc.

 

[Tera Gawaandi]

BCCI is a private body but fully controlled by politicians.

BCCI realizes that PCB will make lots of money from this series hence they do not want to play away series with Pakistan. India doesn't want unstable neighbor next door but here financial incentive is too big.

I think PCB should introspect why its unable to tap 180 million population market, Pakistan is second largest cricketing nation on earth. Why they are in this position today.

 

[waleed88]

Dawood Ibrahim has always been in Pakistan or Dubai.
He has businesses running in Pakistan.

As well as that, we all know Dawood's right hand Tiger Memon lives in Karachi.

I don't see any reason for India to complain about these people because they are not ISI backed.

They are pretty powerful businessmen and they know various powerful people in different institutions hence it is hard to catch them.

Similarly the Indian extremist group under Bal Thakre has openly threatened Pakistani team in the past, yet that never comes up as a part of the arguement whenever terrorism is mentioned.

Its unfair to talk about just muslim terrorism and ignore the rest.

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[Gotham Cronie]

But bilateral and ICC tournaments are different this way. When India face off Pakistan in an ICC tournament their goal is to win the tournament and not to shake hands with Pakistan. But bilaterals imply shaking hands with Pakistan which India does not want to do at this time.

It is something like this. You live in country A and you want to go to country B, which is a friend of your country. But the air route takes you via country C which happens to be your enemy. While you wouldn't want to land in C and explore that country, if you want to go to B you may tolerate temporarily halting at C because you have no choice.

But you do have a choice. You could simply forfeit the match such as examples that other posters mentioned.

If India's moral standards and holds the feelings of the Mumbai victims so close to their heart, they surely won't throw them aside when two points are hanging in front of their face?

 

[IndianWillow]

But you do have a choice. You could simply forfeit the match such as examples that other posters mentioned.

If India's moral standards and holds the feelings of the Mumbai victims so close to their heart, they surely won't throw them aside when two points are hanging in front of their face?

Why would they forfeit matches and there by increase their chances of getting eliminated from the WC? And for how long? This war and proxy war between India and Pakistan has been going on since 1947 and there is nothing to suggest that this strife will end any time soon. It may be another century before any real progress is made in this regard. It makes no sense for India to avoid playing Pakistan in ICC tournaments, because they don't know how long this stalemate will continue. Instead both countries must try to separate the game from politics and play in a neutral territory as soon as possible. Avoiding each other even in an ICC tournament will make matters worse as it will reduce any chances these two teams have in engaging in a bilateral.

 

[90MPH]

Why would they forfeit matches and there by increase their chances of getting eliminated from the WC? And for how long? This war and proxy war between India and Pakistan has been going on since 1947 and there is nothing to suggest that this strife will end any time soon. It may be another century before any real progress is made in this regard. It makes no sense for India to avoid playing Pakistan in ICC tournaments, because they don't know how long this stalemate will continue. Instead both countries must try to separate the game from politics and play in a neutral territory as soon as possible. Avoiding each other even in an ICC tournament will make matters worse as it will reduce any chances these two teams have in engaging in a bilateral.

Well the BCCi has been indicating they will not play Pakistan at the UAE which is a perfect neutral venue - that's where they hypocrisy comes into play.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Anyone who thinks this is a moral stand is fooling himself. BCCI (probably under the instruction of GoI) are not playing Pakistan because it'll bring PCB big revenues.

So it doesn't make sense to boycott them in an ICC tourney.

Not that I agree with this, but no point making the 100th thread about this. We'll play when we'll play. Until then lets enjoy the contests we have in world events.

 

[Gotham Cronie]

Why would they forfeit matches and there by increase their chances of getting eliminated from the WC? And for how long? This war and proxy war between India and Pakistan has been going on since 1947 and there is nothing to suggest that this strife will end any time soon. It may be another century before any real progress is made in this regard. It makes no sense for India to avoid playing Pakistan in ICC tournaments, because they don't know how long this stalemate will continue. Instead both countries must try to separate the game from politics and play in a neutral territory as soon as possible. Avoiding each other even in an ICC tournament will make matters worse as it will reduce any chances these two teams have in engaging in a bilateral.

If only if there was a neutral venue where Pakistan could play.

 

[MRSN]

Anyone who thinks this is a moral stand is fooling himself. BCCI (probably under the instruction of GoI) are not playing Pakistan because it'll bring PCB big revenues.

So it doesn't make sense to boycott them in an ICC tourney.

Not that I agree with this, but no point making the 100th thread about this. We'll play when we'll play. Until then lets enjoy the contests we have in world events.

I like your genuiness..at least you are being open.not defending BCCI or goi blindly. I like it more than those Indian fans who no matter what would defend giving poor excuses of security,war .etc

 

[bilalmasaud]

Read my post again. I have always said cricket has nothing to do with politics and what BCCI doing is stupidity. India-Pak should play cricket irrespective of political situation.

But that dosent change the fact Dawood is hiding in Karachi.

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the reason i chose to reply to you is since you seem not so biased in your comments ... Dawood is in karachi perhaps i don't know for sure but my question is so what? India has elements that are killing people in pakistan hiding in india ... training them supplying them with weapons and so on and so forth ... we have a proxy war going on ... and has been going on for some time .. it is unfortunate but it is the truth ... so India is just trying to play innocent here by projecting the Dawood issue specially considering the foreign ministry in pakistan in under immense domestic pressure to take up india's involvement in terrorism in pakistan on international stage and go on an aggressive drive ... so i assume dawood is indian foreign ministries preemptive strike ... anyways these are issues that the politicians will keep bringing up ... some are legit a lot of them are fabricated ... but one thing is for certain there is blood on the hands of both sides ... so who ever brings up dawood from the normal people in india surprises me cause that shows their media has blinded them to the atrocities committed by their side ... most pakistani accept their involvement in the proxy war don't understand how most posters from the indian side seem to be blind of their involvement .

There are two sides to story.

Some people believe that India Pakistan are in a state of war since 1947. The would associate cricket and politics and make it their mission to make sure , it stays war.

Some people believe that sports, cricket, tourism and everything else is different from politics and government matters and should be kept separate.

Personally, I am inclined for the latter because I don't want no war or anything.

But I think more people in India and Pakistan feel the former. Which is why, such moralistic stands mean nothing for most people, who consider this as a 60 year ongoing war.

Without meaning to sound impolite or rude, I bet tearing up India into two parts still hurts most Indians.

Agree with alot of what you said ... but India in its current state wasn't tore up .. India as a colony was teared up .. which neither belonged to India of today nor pakistan of today ..

BCCI is a private body but fully controlled by politicians.

BCCI realizes that PCB will make lots of money from this series hence they do not want to play away series with Pakistan. India doesn't want unstable neighbor next door but here financial incentive is too big.

I think PCB should introspect why its unable to tap 180 million population market, Pakistan is second largest cricketing nation on earth. Why they are in this position today.

Good points just that not sure india wants a stable neighbor ... Atleast not what they are trying to achieve by fighting the proxy war thru afghanistan .. a stable pakistan is not in the interest of GOI or the indian Army( neither is a stable india in the interest of pakistani politicians or armed forces) since it's probably is in the interest of the people of India and pakistan could help elevate poverty you see and educate the masses ... how would then our politicians stay in power ..

Dawood Ibrahim has always been in Pakistan or Dubai.
He has businesses running in Pakistan.

As well as that, we all know Dawood's right hand Tiger Memon lives in Karachi.

I don't see any reason for India to complain about these people because they are not ISI backed.

They are pretty powerful businessmen and they know various powerful people in different institutions hence it is hard to catch them.

Similarly the Indian extremist group under Bal Thakre has openly threatened Pakistani team in the past, yet that never comes up as a part of the arguement whenever terrorism is mentioned.

Its unfair to talk about just muslim terrorism and ignore the rest.

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Fair point .. but who's reading?

Anyone who thinks this is a moral stand is fooling himself. BCCI (probably under the instruction of GoI) are not playing Pakistan because it'll bring PCB big revenues.

So it doesn't make sense to boycott them in an ICC tourney.

Not that I agree with this, but no point making the 100th thread about this. We'll play when we'll play. Until then lets enjoy the contests we have in world events.

Agreed!!

 

[Gotham Cronie]

Whatever reasons the GOI has for refusing to allow the tour, I hope they apply the same reasons if India and Pakistan meet each other in the World T20.

Surely the prestige of the nation, sentiments of the citizens of India, and life of human beings won't be thrown on the curb when 2 shiny points are at stake.

 

[Gotham Cronie]

So the date is set.

On March 19th, the prestige of the nation , sentiment of Indians for the soldiers dying on the border will be thrown on the curb and stepped over while running after 2 shiny points.

 

[Chrish]

Disgusted seeing Azharuddin seating among "experts".

 

[Mp812]

Beating India in India and then rubbing it in would be very satisfying.

) Try beating in SA, Australia, Eng first )

 

[Haroon786]

) Try beating in SA, Australia, Eng first )

Thanks for bumping a 21 month old post, really fastidious of you.

Secondly, your post is factually incorrect since Pakistan defeated India in the 2004 Champions Trophy, which was held in England.

Again thanks for the quote and do scurry off back to where you were.

 

[Gotham Cronie]

Here's a new one....BCCI now chasing 2 points in a tournament they supposedly don't care about :lmao