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So many chiefs are Indians. But go easy on the cultural stereotypes

Cpt. Rishwat

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So many chiefs are Indians. But go easy on the cultural stereotypes

sathnam sanghera

Here’s a quiz: what do the following individuals have in common? Shantanu Narayen, chairman and chief executive at Adobe since 2007. Satya Nadella, chief executive at Microsoft since 2014. Sundar Pichai, chief executive at Google since 2015. Ajay Banga, president and chief executive of Mastercard since 2010.

Struggling? Of course you’re not. They’re obviously all Indian-born chief executives running prominent US companies, and there have been so many others — Rajat Gupta, managing director of McKinsey and Company between 1994 and 2003, springs to mind, along with Indra Nooyi, global chief executive of PepsiCo from 2006 to 2018 — that I’ve occasionally wondered whether there’s something about Indians that makes them particularly suited to American corporate life.

If I’ve stopped myself from speculating out loud, it’s because, as a British-born son of Indian immigrants, I’m somewhat removed from their experience, and because the statistics give mixed signals. A 2011 Global Leadership Survey conducted by the executive search firm Egon Zehnder may have found that Indians led more S&P 500 companies than people of any other nationality (apart from American), but a 2014 article for The Harvard Business Review claimed that global companies were simply open-minded while choosing chief executives rather than being in favour of Indians.

These concerns have not stopped two self-described “stalwarts of Indian business and academics”, R Gopalakrishnan (former director of Tata Sons) and Ranjan Banerjee (dean and professor of marketing at S P Jain Institute of Management and Research in Mumbai) from writing a book about the “little studied phenomenon” entitled The Made-in-India Manager, which claims “that a unique combination of factors has led Indian management thought and practices to become a soft power with the potential to decisively impact global managers of tomorrow”.

I picked up a copy at Delhi airport the other day and found claims which, initially at least, seemed to make sense. The authors argue, for instance, that India’s multilingualism, with “a majority” of educated Indians speaking more than one language — “the official language Hindi, English and another Indian language” — makes them at ease in American corporations. As my friend the business guru Nirmalya Kumar, has put it elsewhere, the fact that so many Indians speak English explains why, relative to Chinese immigrants, Indians are more successful in the USA: “Indians, because of their language skills, can behave in what sociologists call ‘situational ethnicity’ — at home they are Indians in their dress, food, customs and friends but outside they meld seamlessly with the natives and can play their game.”

The authors also argue that the historic fetishisation of the West in India has made Indian executives ambitious expatriates. India of the late 1970s and 1980s, they observe, was closed off to American and European culture, with “the choice of TV programmes restricted to the state broadcaster”, “product choices restricted and competition limited”, which “led to a longing for, and an attraction to, all things western, which in most cases meant all things American”. This certainly reflects my experience: the most patriotic Americans I’ve met have all been Indian immigrants who have made it there. Though having said that, I’m not sure the generalisation applies to younger Indians who have grown up exposed to the world via the internet and feel emboldened by India’s growing power, and I’m afraid this is the point at which the authors’ arguments began to lose me.

They continue to argue, for instance, that “management as a profession is largely about understanding a problem, finding multiple ways of solving it and executing the chosen approach with colleagues” and that “a person growing up in India” might be particularly good at it because they have had “a large number of diverse challenges to overcome from a relatively young age”, when the same could be said about life in most developing countries.

They claim that the instinctive Indian respect for elders and experience leads to “humility and respect” in Indian management trainees, but I’m not sure how valid this generalisation is in an India which, in the 21st century, is losing this veneration and even seeing the emergence of western-style old people’s homes.

They talk up diversity, saying that “India is home to all the Abrahamic religions”, contrasting it unfavourably “with Chinese society, which is homogenous and 92 per cent Han”, but if there were a correlation then surely many more Londoners would be running US companies. They mention close families as an asset in business life, saying that “both Indra Nooyi, former chairman and CEO of PepsiCo, and Satya Nadella, presently the CEO of Microsoft, talk about the strong influence that their mothers have had on their upbringing, aspirations and values”, without really explaining why this would boost management performance.

They highlight that the desire for material gain is ingrained in Indian culture, with “striving for wellbeing and material gain (artha)” being seen as “a positive goal that every human being must aspire to”, when the same could be said about Nigeria, Sudan and a whole bunch of other cultures. Most preposterously, they claim that the Indian predilection for superstition makes Indians suited to a western management culture where important decisions are taken “intuitively, despite all the appurtenances of rationality”. Guys, there is making a decision on a hunch and then there is, as my Indian mum is inclined to do, cancelling entire trips because someone sneezed inauspiciously as they walked out of the door.

Indeed, by the end of the book I was left feeling there was little rational explanation for what may not even be a phenomenon anyway. Though if I had to put money on one generalisation that may one day turn out to be true, it would be their argument that management is more respected as a vocation in India than most other places. The authors see this reflected in the fact that India has 4,000 management institutes, but I see it in the simple fact that I found my copy of The Made-In-India Manager in the bestselling section of the airport bookshop. If enough people want something, it happens.

Sathnam Sanghera

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...go-easy-on-the-cultural-stereotypes-8hdq5g962

Very interesting article and perhaps highlights the difference between British and American Indians. This fellow is the one who did the tv series the boy with the top knot.
 
Interesting you did not find the conclusion from the author enough to repudiate any other learning from the article.

Indeed, by the end of the book I was left feeling there was little rational explanation for what may not even be a phenomenon anyway. Though if I had to put money on one generalisation that may one day turn out to be true, it would be their argument that management is more respected as a vocation in India than most other places. The authors see this reflected in the fact that India has 4,000 management institutes
 
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Very interesting article and perhaps highlights the difference between British and American Indians. This fellow is the one who did the tv series the boy with the top knot.

Interesting article, thank you for sharing. I wonder if there is no definitive conclusion because the author is falling into the classic correlation = causation trap? I'm not sure if those Indians succeed due to direct social attributes of Indian culture. I'm thinking if the success stems from early emphasis in education and it could also be a function of how companies/industries have evolved now. There is less and less information arbitrage, this being the age of information, so deep analytical skills (something Indians fare well in thanks to STEM emphasis) may have become more important over time. I do see quite a few Persian Americans also have prominent corporate leadership roles and it makes us wonder the common attributes of both communities.
 
All the high achievers in silicon valley are Indian born are there as many 2nd and 3rd gen? I have to say from 1st gen Indians I personally know here in Sydney they are highly driven as my colleague told me if you don't perform there a long queue of people to replace you.

As Mustang has rightly said it is the emphasis on education that has got them there for sure but would the success have been there if the French or Portuguese had colonised the whole country instead of the British (to me the proficiency in English is what allows the the advantage which the Chinese don't have)
 
One remark which caught my attention was the reference to Indian fetishisation of the west. In a lot of ways, I think that has helped India a lot in that they taught English in their schools whereas Pakistan barely seemed to bother. But what I don't understand is why India doesn't reflect that when it comes to organisation, city planning, hygiene standards and so on. Realistically it looks barely different to Pakistan, and in a lot of ways worse. Are Indians copying the wrong things?

Also the fetish seems to clash with what people are voting for. Rather than the more western friendly Gandhi dynasty with Rajiv and Sonia, we have seen the public rally behind back to the future chaiwala, Modi and the BJP.
 
Indians have done well everywhere other than in India.

I think corruption and inherent lack of discipline in Asian culture; these two factors are responsible for this failure. And overpopulation doesn’t help
 
Another thing that holds back people is the reservation system in India so they prefer to move to the west.
People are just tired of Congress, in the last 10 years they were in power, they had so many scams, people have lost count of it and the internal security of India was wretched. There were so many terrorists attack all over India during that time. Mumbai, Delhi, Hyderabad just the few top of my had.
Rahul Gandhi just doesn’t inspire anyone, if only congress got over dynasty politics and actually gave a chance to some decent leader from congress to come ahead rather than the joker that Rahul Gandhi is... he is equivalent to the joker in Pakistan Bilal Bhutto?? Not sure if thats his name.
In the end you see what you want to see @Cpt.Rish...
 
One remark which caught my attention was the reference to Indian fetishisation of the west. In a lot of ways, I think that has helped India a lot in that they taught English in their schools whereas Pakistan barely seemed to bother. But what I don't understand is why India doesn't reflect that when it comes to organisation, city planning, hygiene standards and so on. Realistically it looks barely different to Pakistan, and in a lot of ways worse. Are Indians copying the wrong things?

Also the fetish seems to clash with what people are voting for. Rather than the more western friendly Gandhi dynasty with Rajiv and Sonia, we have seen the public rally behind back to the future chaiwala, Modi and the BJP.

Never copy the right things from the West.....it is a global pattern will copy all the greed and consumer and throwaway society. Many Indians from Urban areas do feel very ashamed of areas where it is not as developed but also recognise that they do not ape the West in positive areas such as hygiene etc
 
Another thing that holds back people is the reservation system in India so they prefer to move to the west.
People are just tired of Congress, in the last 10 years they were in power, they had so many scams, people have lost count of it and the internal security of India was wretched. There were so many terrorists attack all over India during that time. Mumbai, Delhi, Hyderabad just the few top of my had.
Rahul Gandhi just doesn’t inspire anyone, if only congress got over dynasty politics and actually gave a chance to some decent leader from congress to come ahead rather than the joker that Rahul Gandhi is... he is equivalent to the joker in Pakistan Bilal Bhutto?? Not sure if thats his name.
In the end you see what you want to see @Cpt.Rish...
Is the reservation system really impacting and driving migration? As that is a gripe a colleague had? Seems the same excuse white South African cricketers use for moving and opting to play for England.
 
Never copy the right things from the West.....it is a global pattern will copy all the greed and consumer and throwaway society. Many Indians from Urban areas do feel very ashamed of areas where it is not as developed but also recognise that they do not ape the West in positive areas such as hygiene etc

Shows the intellect of the posters here.

You can work hard and rise to the top. It’s the only thing you can effect to improve the quality of life for yourself and that of your family. Cleanliness, public hygiene are beyond the individuals control.

If you can live in the west across generations and the best you can do is drive your own cab, looking down at the achievements of your neighbors who you cannot compete with is the only way out.
 
Is the reservation system really impacting and driving migration? As that is a gripe a colleague had? Seems the same excuse white South African cricketers use for moving and opting to play for England.

Some very interesting points raised in this thread.

But what I don't understand is why India doesn't reflect that when it comes to organisation, city planning, hygiene standards and so on. Realistically it looks barely different to Pakistan, and in a lot of ways worse. Are Indians copying the wrong things? - I think things like infrastructure organization, city planning etc are a function of the environment being able to support it, on top of upliftment of an entire population. When you have 1.2+ Billion people crammed into a geographic area with overflowing bad infrastructure, things just stagnate. If you have the luxury of autocratic decision making like China then it does help but India is a democracy and with it comes bureaucracy making things much slower. Man, I felt so frustrated at how chaotic things were and how ridiculously long the infrastructure projects took. No matter how much knowledge capital you try to pour in, if the infrastructure and governance models are not supportive then you cannot see changes in the ground that easily.

Congress and BJP - The Indians seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place just like here in the US (Hillary Vs Trump being a classic). On one hand they have a right wing fanatic government and other hand they have impotent dynastic slaves bent on looting more and more. Pretty bad choices that are consistent for decades (at least here in US we have to endure a bad President only for 8 years). The fetish, assuming it to be true still cannot help whom to vote for. If your only 2 choices are the above then once in a while the society will do "course correction" (read vote for right wing types) because they have simply had enough of the dynastic rule.

Reservation system - Based on what I heard from multiple sources in India, yes it sucks. But it is an emotive issue and cannot be fixed easily. Proponents for change want an economic reservation system (instead of caste based), opponents of change fear that it will erode their government privileges. Only in India did I see a community actually protesting in the streets to be categorized as a more backward caste to get more government privileges - true story, in Chennai India. Based on my limited observation, I feel reservation system on paper could be good but reservation system in practice (with many segments of population finding loopholes to get unfair advantages by being in cahoots with local government) does hamper progress. Thanks to this, you see not so deserving people get opportunities and also see benefits barely reaching communities that need them the most.


In a lot of ways, I think that has helped India a lot in that they taught English in their schools whereas Pakistan barely seemed to bother. - Not trying to digress from the thread but just curious about this one point. Does Pakistan not have more prevalent English education? I have assumed their systems are similar in terms of average English proficiency in the country. I have seen 1st gen Pakistanis in the US have similar English proficiency as 1st gen Indians.
 
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Some very interesting points raised in this thread.

But what I don't understand is why India doesn't reflect that when it comes to organisation, city planning, hygiene standards and so on. Realistically it looks barely different to Pakistan, and in a lot of ways worse. Are Indians copying the wrong things? - I think things like infrastructure organization, city planning etc are a function of the environment being able to support it, on top of upliftment of an entire population. When you have 1.2+ Billion people crammed into a geographic area with overflowing bad infrastructure, things just stagnate. If you have the luxury of autocratic decision making like China then it does help but India is a democracy and with it comes bureaucracy making things much slower. Man, I felt so frustrated at how chaotic things were and how ridiculously long the infrastructure projects took. No matter how much knowledge capital you try to pour in, if the infrastructure and governance models are not supportive then you cannot see changes in the ground that easily.

Congress and BJP - The Indians seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place just like here in the US (Hillary Vs Trump being a classic). On one hand they have a right wing fanatic government and other hand they have impotent dynastic slaves bent on looting more and more. Pretty bad choices that are consistent for decades (at least here in US we have to endure a bad President only for 8 years). The fetish, assuming it to be true still cannot help whom to vote for. If your only 2 choices are the above then once in a while the society will do "course correction" (read vote for right wing types) because they have simply had enough of the dynastic rule.

Reservation system - Based on what I heard from multiple sources in India, yes it sucks. But it is an emotive issue and cannot be fixed easily. Proponents for change want an economic reservation system (instead of caste based), opponents of change fear that it will erode their government privileges. Only in India did I see a community actually protesting in the streets to be categorized as a more backward caste to get more government privileges - true story, in Chennai India. Based on my limited observation, I feel reservation system on paper could be good but reservation system in practice (with many segments of population finding loopholes to get unfair advantages by being in cahoots with local government) does hamper progress. Thanks to this, you see not so deserving people get opportunities and also see benefits barely reaching communities that need them the most.


In a lot of ways, I think that has helped India a lot in that they taught English in their schools whereas Pakistan barely seemed to bother. - Not trying to digress from the thread but just curious about this one point. Does Pakistan not have more prevalent English education? I have assumed their systems are similar in terms of average English proficiency in the country. I have seen 1st gen Pakistanis in the US have similar English proficiency as 1st gen Indians.

The Pakistanis you interact with probably had access to the best schools which are probably only available to the elite. I am talking about the general masses.
 
Shows the intellect of the posters here.

You can work hard and rise to the top. It’s the only thing you can effect to improve the quality of life for yourself and that of your family. Cleanliness, public hygiene are beyond the individuals control.

If you can live in the west across generations and the best you can do is drive your own cab, looking down at the achievements of your neighbors who you cannot compete with is the only way out.

Why is cleanliness and public hygiene beyond the individuals control? In the UK and the Arab emirates, those same cab drivers have immaculate hygiene and cleanliness in their individual cars. As for looking at neighbours perhaps you should ask yourself why you are here even asking such a question?
 
Many Pakistani complain that when people are overseas UAE/UK they are adhere the rules and don't litter so why can't everyone everywhere so their bit and not litter.

Re the education yes it the same but India not only had the language it also had stability which unfortunately Pakistan has not had for long periods let alone for the majority of time since partition.
 
Is the reservation system really impacting and driving migration? As that is a gripe a colleague had? Seems the same excuse white South African cricketers use for moving and opting to play for England.
I think it is one of the forces driving migration. Education is seen a way to alivate your situation materially.
But with there being 50% reservation in education institutions and government jobs. It becomes very tough for general category unless you are brilliant. Now BJP planning 10% reservation based on financial conditions. In states like Maharashtra reservation for locals as well, you might have 70% reservation and 30% for general category.
Most people you will see migrate would be midle class families as they have the money to be able to send their kids overseas and study.
 
Why is cleanliness and public hygiene beyond the individuals control? In the UK and the Arab emirates, those same cab drivers have immaculate hygiene and cleanliness in their individual cars. As for looking at neighbours perhaps you should ask yourself why you are here even asking such a question?

I can see you struggle to understand a very basic post. In the UK, not all areas are clean and well maintained. It’s not because we segregate and keep only certain people in those areas, do we? It’s down to enforcement, access to bins and how well is the area maintained, cleaned by the local authorities.

To your surprise, even in an overcrowded city like Mumbai, you will find clean and well maintained areas. It’s again down to the local authorities.

If that clears things for you, let’s go back to the inference you and Salma_T drew from it.

Are cleanliness and personal hygiene western concepts? All Dharmic faiths highlight the importance of personal cleanliness. I am sure the Abrahmic ones do to. How is then following cleanliness western culture? Or did Grandpa Rishwat never shower when he was in the Pind?

By the same token, how is working hard, studying, a western concept? How is it then, that we don’t see the same frequency of leaders from the second/third gen people?

Or maybe we could look at the issue rationally. In an overcrowded country like India, where the only reliable way of poverty alleviation was studying, these kids excelled at it. When you have a million kids writing an entrance test and only the top 500 will get seats of their choice, you have to be special to get in. If those kids go on to do something special it should not surprise you.
 
I think it is one of the forces driving migration. Education is seen a way to alivate your situation materially.
But with there being 50% reservation in education institutions and government jobs. It becomes very tough for general category unless you are brilliant. Now BJP planning 10% reservation based on financial conditions. In states like Maharashtra reservation for locals as well, you might have 70% reservation and 30% for general category.
Most people you will see migrate would be midle class families as they have the money to be able to send their kids overseas and study.

50% that is a high percentage is that based on caste alone or do they have other criteria too.

The quota is not applicable in the private sector and I assume India must have plenty of private educational institutes as well as companies. I do not fully understand the reservation system so cannot fully comment on it but it is to right generational wrongs?
 
I can see you struggle to understand a very basic post. In the UK, not all areas are clean and well maintained. It’s not because we segregate and keep only certain people in those areas, do we? It’s down to enforcement, access to bins and how well is the area maintained, cleaned by the local authorities.

To your surprise, even in an overcrowded city like Mumbai, you will find clean and well maintained areas. It’s again down to the local authorities.

If that clears things for you, let’s go back to the inference you and Salma_T drew from it.

Are cleanliness and personal hygiene western concepts? All Dharmic faiths highlight the importance of personal cleanliness. I am sure the Abrahmic ones do to. How is then following cleanliness western culture? Or did Grandpa Rishwat never shower when he was in the Pind?

By the same token, how is working hard, studying, a western concept? How is it then, that we don’t see the same frequency of leaders from the second/third gen people?

Or maybe we could look at the issue rationally. In an overcrowded country like India, where the only reliable way of poverty alleviation was studying, these kids excelled at it. When you have a million kids writing an entrance test and only the top 500 will get seats of their choice, you have to be special to get in. If those kids go on to do something special it should not surprise you.

I have just spent nearly 6 months working with someone from Mumbai and she said in terms of terms of employment if you don't perform there is a queue of people waiting
So I get education is the way out and as I said I like the emphasis on education as if you don't perform there will be 50 like you. There are certain areas that make Indians touchy and I think the lack cleanliness is one when westerners bring it up. Yes Abrahamic faiths are very big on cleanliness and that is what makes the lack of it in Pakistan shocking.
 
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I have just spent nearly 6 months working with someone from Mumbai and she said in terms of terms of employment if you don't perform there is a queue of people waiting
So I get education is the way out and as I said I like the emphasis on education as if you don't perform there will be 50 like you. There are certain areas that make Indians touchy and I think the lack cleanliness is one when westerners bring it up.

You have real comprehension issues. It’s not touchy and it’s certainly not because you brought it up. My long post was down to your moronic interpretation of an actual issue.

In your first post, you claimed it was apeing the west in the wrong areas. No it’s not. It’s poverty. When people struggle for basic necessities, public hygiene is not something they actively think of.
 
You have real comprehension issues. It’s not touchy and it’s certainly not because you brought it up. My long post was down to your moronic interpretation of an actual issue.

In your first post, you claimed it was apeing the west in the wrong areas. No it’s not. It’s poverty. When people struggle for basic necessities, public hygiene is not something they actively think of.

I agree that cleanliness and hygiene are luxuries that poor people cannot afford when their daily struggle is to find enough to eat.
 
You have real comprehension issues. It’s not touchy and it’s certainly not because you brought it up. My long post was down to your moronic interpretation of an actual issue.

In your first post, you claimed it was apeing the west in the wrong areas. No it’s not. It’s poverty. When people struggle for basic necessities, public hygiene is not something they actively think of.

I think it comes across as touchy because in most of your replies you have referred to those you are debating with as moronic, intellectually challenged, cab drivers etc. Just stick to explanations rather than ask whether posters gradpas showered in the pind. It just makes it look as if a nerve has been touched, hence 'touchy'.
 
I think it comes across as touchy because in most of your replies you have referred to those you are debating with as moronic, intellectually challenged, cab drivers etc. Just stick to explanations rather than ask whether posters gradpas showered in the pind. It just makes it look as if a nerve has been touched, hence 'touchy'.

You can take it any way you want tbh. If you can miss the glaring problem of poverty and inefficient access to resources and instead deduce the problem to apeing the west, it’s not too far off to understand why you will take posts schooling you to be touchy. Maybe this is how people like you and Salma_t stay true to your roots, you can read English now, but still don’t comprehend it ;-)
 
Sure there are many Indian executives in the west, no doubt its an achievement of those who moved up the corporate ladder and their families. But I fail to understand why India is so far behind when it comes to inventing technology? I have yet to see any Indian product like a phone or a software that is indigenous to India and used in other countries. For example, I have been using a chinese phone (one plus) and there are some very popular apps coming out of China like tik tok which have a global audience. So I question if India claims to be a global tech hub why does it not have anything like that to show?
 
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You can take it any way you want tbh. If you can miss the glaring problem of poverty and inefficient access to resources and instead deduce the problem to apeing the west, it’s not too far off to understand why you will take posts schooling you to be touchy. Maybe this is how people like you and Salma_t stay true to your roots, you can read English now, but still don’t comprehend it ;-)

It wasn't us who described India as having a fetish for the west, it was an observation made by an Indian in the OP. Not that there is anything wrong with it as I have already said, although I find that at odds with a a country which has voted for the BJP which seems to me to be harking to a more traditional Indian flavour.

I take your point about poverty and resources, do you think India compares well with east Asian countries like Malaysia or Thailand in this regard?
 
It wasn't us who described India as having a fetish for the west, it was an observation made by an Indian in the OP. Not that there is anything wrong with it as I have already said, although I find that at odds with a a country which has voted for the BJP which seems to me to be harking to a more traditional Indian flavour.

I take your point about poverty and resources, do you think India compares well with east Asian countries like Malaysia or Thailand in this regard?

Compare the per capita mate. Also not all places in India are as bad as Mumbai and other overcrowded metropolis.

It does not take a lot of intelligence to be a journalist. Look at what’s written by that guy. I posted the contradiction that he posted in his last paragraph in my first post in this thread.
 
This Linkedin post about this is a bit dated but I like the breakdown of 5 reasons he has laid out here. Our discussion in this thread seems to largely hit on nature vs nurture but he has a good breakdown in this Linkedin post

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/5-unexpected-reasons-why-indians-make-ceos-global-avi-patchava/

1) ABILITY TO OWN COMMUNICATION IN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE
2) PLAYING THE GAME OF ORGANISATIONAL POLITICS
3) COMFORT IN HIGHLY AMBIGUOUS ENVIRONMENTS
4) MANAGING DIFFERING CULTURES AND DIVERSE OPINION
5) WILLINGNESS TO BECOME NATURALISED IN NEW ENVIRONMENTS

Above 5 points pasted from the Linkedin article (apologies for all caps - just pasting it in from there). If you think about this #1, #2, #3 are generic enough traits from the "nurture" side of the equation. #4 and #5 though could be influenced by the sub-culture of your community/religion, especially #5. I think relatively higher fluidity provided by Hinduism or Indian culture could make #5 easier. I think #5 eventually helps #4 happen as you grow into a leader.

Random example of fluidity - I have seen many groups/castes of Hindus being open to eating beef in southern India (not just Dalits as some outsiders claim).

I'm a mix of 3 ethnicities (majority being Indian) and one of the other 2 is Hispanic. So I'm involved once in a while in local Hispanic youth groups and entrepreneurial groups. I do see the Hispanic community taking pointers from Indian community for education and career progress.
 
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