Some things I miss about religion...

[shaykh]

For some this will be an odd post considering the source...but there are certain aspects I do miss about belonging to a religion...

One of the original draws when I became Muslim was the sense of community...as a 15 year old boy with no siblings and no family other than a mother it was very nice to be part of a religious community...big group of people...and I found my circle was a lot bigger than it is now as someone who travels a lot and changes location every year...

Traditions...celebrations...linked to the first point...things like Ramadan and Eid...when I lived in Seville...it certainly seemed fun being Catholic...lots of events...traditions like Semana Santa...I met a guy there who converted to Catholicism just cos it would be easier for him and made it more fun for his kids who could share all the cool little traditions of which there were many...religious weddings always seemed that much more interesting...

When I visited Israel...little festivals like Purim or Hanukkah now...even amongst the secular...brought people closer together...and certainly made their lives richer...especially i feel for children...

Things like a common purpose...and an understanding of purpose...and a sense of belonging to something...i do think reverence and community are desirable things for most...

As someone who is essentially agnostic...there is really nothing in the way of traditions or community that exists...your beliefs make you an individual...and in some ways while intellectually I am comfortable in that I feel sincere in belief...the things above i feel generally make people happier...and religion i do feel makes people happier...

And this is where I certainly disagree with the likes of Dawkins who feels the world would be a lot better if religions didn't exist...I certainly feel religion and state should be separate but a world without religions would be quite a depressing one...more individual, less community oriented and boring...

As someone who is agnostic I have managed to enjoy a lot of religious traditions where i've lived...now its in an Orthodox country (Romania in my case)...

Just my two cents...for any atheists/agnostics...do you feel a little jealous of religious people sometimes?...

Obviously religion isn't the only outlet...people build community and belonging with things of common interest...whether that be politics/causes eg nationalism, sports...or as far as negative things like gangs...i do feel religion has the strongest version of that...

 

[Pakpak]

If you could stop using dots all the time your posts would be easier to read

 

[CricketCartoons]

Just my two cents...for any atheists/agnostics...do you feel a little jealous of religious people sometimes?...

I am a proud Hindu, and I swear on that. but I feel jealous of Muslims when I see they become friends so easily with muslims from other countries. While as a hindu, I feel neglected by my fellow hindus. Also they have very less trojan muslims, like we have among us hindus, who think the more self hating, the more civilized they are.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

As an Agnostic Muslim I feel I get the best of both worlds. I can generally mix in with other Muslims on the holy days ( which are quite boring in the UK let's face it) and at the same time, as a good British integrated citizen, I can also enjoy the Christmas period with all the Christmas movies, presents and commercial extravaganzas which are indeed good fun.

 

[hadi123]

As an Agnostic Muslim I feel I get the best of both worlds. I can generally mix in with other Muslims on the holy days ( which are quite boring in the UK let's face it) and at the same time, as a good British integrated citizen, I can also enjoy the Christmas period with all the Christmas movies, presents and commercial extravaganzas which are indeed good fun.

If it's not too personal, do you drink being an agnostic muslim or not?

 

[Yossarian]

For some this will be an odd post considering the source...but there are certain aspects I do miss about belonging to a religion...

One of the original draws when I became Muslim was the sense of community...as a 15 year old boy with no siblings and no family other than a mother it was very nice to be part of a religious community...big group of people...and I found my circle was a lot bigger than it is now as someone who travels a lot and changes location every year...

Traditions...celebrations...linked to the first point...things like Ramadan and Eid...when I lived in Seville...it certainly seemed fun being Catholic...lots of events...traditions like Semana Santa...I met a guy there who converted to Catholicism just cos it would be easier for him and made it more fun for his kids who could share all the cool little traditions of which there were many...religious weddings always seemed that much more interesting...

When I visited Israel...little festivals like Purim or Hanukkah now...even amongst the secular...brought people closer together...and certainly made their lives richer...especially i feel for children...

Things like a common purpose...and an understanding of purpose...and a sense of belonging to something...i do think reverence and community are desirable things for most...

As someone who is essentially agnostic...there is really nothing in the way of traditions or community that exists...your beliefs make you an individual...and in some ways while intellectually I am comfortable in that I feel sincere in belief...the things above i feel generally make people happier...and religion i do feel makes people happier...

And this is where I certainly disagree with the likes of Dawkins who feels the world would be a lot better if religions didn't exist...I certainly feel religion and state should be separate but a world without religions would be quite a depressing one...more individual, less community oriented and boring...

As someone who is agnostic I have managed to enjoy a lot of religious traditions where i've lived...now its in an Orthodox country (Romania in my case)...

Just my two cents...for any atheists/agnostics...do you feel a little jealous of religious people sometimes?...

Obviously religion isn't the only outlet...people build community and belonging with things of common interest...whether that be politics/causes eg nationalism, sports...or as far as negative things like gangs...i do feel religion has the strongest version of that...

Keep the traditions, cultures, customs, but discard the 'spirituality', the praying and worshiping, and shoving religion down others throats, and you have 'Heaven on Earth'.

 

[KingKhanWC]

My heart cries for the OP. Poor guy used to be a Muslim and now spends his spare time critisiing the faith but he still misses elements of it. lol

 

[shaykh]

My heart cries for the OP. Poor guy used to be a Muslim and now spends his spare time critisiing the faith but he still misses elements of it. lol

Ive actively avoided any scriptural discussions of late on this forum ...now I essentially stick to politics ...

 

[ManFan]

Ive actively avoided any scriptural discussions of late on this forum ...now I essentially stick to politics ...

What turned you away from the faith if you don't mind me asking?

 

[shaykh]

What turned you away from the faith if you don't mind me asking?

It's a discussion I tend to avoid now...plenty of time has passed...and considering this is a thread on some of the benefits of being affiliated with a religion even nominally...I won't digress...if you search my posts on the forum you can find some of my perspectives and reasons for why I left...

 

[shaykh]

Keep the traditions, cultures, customs, but discard the 'spirituality', the praying and worshiping, and shoving religion down others throats, and you have 'Heaven on Earth'.

Yeah I agree with this actually...i kinda wish i was nominally religious instead of studying scripture and surrounded by those whose belief was in proselytisation and say zealotry...

 

[shaz619]

Must be quiet lonely from your POV if your very extroverted although there must be groups out there for like minded people for you to interact with and attend events although it wouldn't be a part of tradition. Eid gets boring the older you get but I imagine it must be a big deal in other parts of the world, Xmas is always something to look forward to in the UK though

 

[shaykh]

Must be quiet lonely from your POV if your very extroverted although there must be groups out there for like minded people for you to interact with and attend events although it wouldn't be a part of tradition. Eid gets boring the older you get but I imagine it must be a big deal in other parts of the world, Xmas is always something to look forward to in the UK though

Live in Romania now so Christmas here should be nice...good thing about changes of location is the normal things seem fun again...

South of Spain was great for religious events...its definitely fun for the secular Catholics...Israel too...however secular or nominal people are they get involved in the religious events...fun for the whole family...

Eid admittedly for me started dying down as I got older too...sheesha and a meal...anyone who's lived in London too will know how Southall was...rented sportscars and parties...dunno if it's classier up North?...

I imagine Eid is a much better spectacle outside England...

Religion aside cos i presume it's just cultural one of the best things i've been to is a funeral in Georgia...providing you're old it's a massive celebration of the life that person lead...traditional dance, caviar, singing, moonshine everywhere...wonderful experience...our British traditions too seem dry in comparison...especially weddings that i've been to too outside of Western Europe...

 

[Justcrazy]

As an Agnostic Muslim I feel I get the best of both worlds. I can generally mix in with other Muslims on the holy days ( which are quite boring in the UK let's face it) and at the same time, as a good British integrated citizen, I can also enjoy the Christmas period with all the Christmas movies, presents and commercial extravaganzas which are indeed good fun.

What is agnostic Muslim ?

 

[CricFan2012]

You can still do all that, just don't practice the religion. I still go to eid parties for example.

I've slowly came out of it because it seems more fairytale the more I've actually sat down and logically thought about it, why restrict yourself in this world when you don't even know IF there is an afterlife or if your religion is the true religion, it's a huge risk, and given the lack of evidence, and science, religion starts becoming obsolete.

 

[ManFan]

You can still do all that, just don't practice the religion. I still go to eid parties for example.

I've slowly came out of it because it seems more fairytale the more I've actually sat down and logically thought about it, why restrict yourself in this world when you don't even know IF there is an afterlife or if your religion is the true religion, it's a huge risk, and given the lack of evidence, and science, religion starts becoming obsolete.

I would say unless you've read both sides than don't be so quick to declare a decision for yourself.
Read the God Delusion, God is not Great, Nietzsche, Heraclitus, Epicurus, and than Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, Al-Ghazali, Jordan of Norage, Averroes, Ibn Sina, Julian of Norwich, Meister Eckhart before making a FINAL decision.

 

[yasir]

Just my two cents...for any atheists/agnostics...do you feel a little jealous of religious people sometimes?...

Human brain has complex needs, it gets satisfy by thinking (that leads to reason and whole enterprise of Science and Tech) and absence of thinking(that leads to Faith and Spiritualism)...We have both emotional and reason wired into our brain, that's a unique evolutionary advantage. We like to enjoy both, its matter of which one dominates most of the time.

Religious customs or traditions do satisfy that emotional identity need, so does many other dogmatic ideas like race, patriotism, tribe etc. We had to train our brain to not like discrimination and or racism, people were satisfied with race and cast ideas, they had strong sense of belonging with those thoughts, we still do in many cases and not in others. Tribalism is still a very strong force, tribalism gets stronger when we face external threats (again we center ourselves to emotion rather than reason in those circumstances, that has evolutionary reasons for that), Maybe we will feel strongly as a species when we face an external threat...Either way it is difficult to completely weed emotion or reason out of our brain, we will always be going back and forth between them, individually as well as collectively.

 

[yasir]

As an Agnostic Muslim I feel I get the best of both worlds. I can generally mix in with other Muslims on the holy days ( which are quite boring in the UK let's face it) and at the same time, as a good British integrated citizen, I can also enjoy the Christmas period with all the Christmas movies, presents and commercial extravaganzas which are indeed good fun.

That is quite a change, I recall you passionately defending religion many times in past...

BTW: We probably need to notarize from Khadam Rizvi Sahab or Peer Sadel Shrief, if "Agnostic Muslim" is an ok state

I have seen many people on PP in last 4/5 years have been more open to secular ideas and willing to think logically than emotionally. More importantly, many in Pakistan(including religious folks), realizing the need to diversify culture, move conversation to secular ideas rather than dogmatic ones, they are finding it hard to make progress by continue to invest in religious centric ECO system. Although slow but it is still a welcome change!!

 

[Robert]

I don’t miss religion at all. I have been a far happier man since purging it from my life.

 

[Napa]

I am a proud Hindu, and I swear on that. but I feel jealous of Muslims when I see they become friends so easily with muslims from other countries. <b>While as a hindu, I feel neglected by my fellow hindus.</b> Also they have very less trojan muslims, like we have among us hindus, who think the more self hating, the more civilized they are.

Not sure which country you live in, I think you wrote something about living in Gurgaon while your flag is Bangladeshi. I live in the US and do not feel neglected by my fellow Hindus. Quite a few Hindu friends, actually even Indian Christians hang out with other Indians. You just have to find the right social circle. If you are a Bengali, the Durga Pujas is a good place to start.

 

[Varun]

Not sure which country you live in, I think you wrote something about living in Gurgaon while your flag is Bangladeshi. I live in the US and do not feel neglected by my fellow Hindus. Quite a few Hindu friends, actually even Indian Christians hang out with other Indians. You just have to find the right social circle. If you are a Bengali, the Durga Pujas is a good place to start.

Best part is that Hinduism isn't even that strict.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Not sure which country you live in, I think you wrote something about living in Gurgaon while your flag is Bangladeshi. I live in the US and do not feel neglected by my fellow Hindus. Quite a few Hindu friends, actually even Indian Christians hang out with other Indians. You just have to find the right social circle. If you are a Bengali, the Durga Pujas is a good place to start.

Good for you, but not the case where I stay. I stay in a posh society with unobstructed view to the aravalli hills. I installed a doorbell which would chant holy shlokas when pressed, and my visitors ask me in a condescending way..if I am way too religious. Even a muslim friend laughed and said isn't it too religious to have such a doorbell. Funny thing is I visit temples occasionally, while she prays 5 times a day. And the hindu neighbours prefer to speak in english with me and act all high society. I have realized that if you want to practice your faith as a hindu, the trojan hindus among the elite will not consider you as one of them, and will pigeonhole you as a hindu extremist who must be backward and patriarchal. all based on a doorbell.

 

[Napa]

Good for you, but not the case where I stay. I stay in a posh society with unobstructed view to the aravalli hills. I installed a doorbell which would chant holy shlokas when pressed, and my visitors ask me in a condescending way..if I am way too religious. Even a muslim friend laughed and said isn't it too religious to have such a doorbell. Funny thing is I visit temples occasionally, while she prays 5 times a day. And the hindu neighbours prefer to speak in english with me and act all high society. I have realized that if you want to practice your faith as a hindu, the trojan hindus among the elite will not consider you as one of them, and will pigeonhole you as a hindu extremist who must be backward and patriarchal. all based on a doorbell.

Ignore the persons who wish to judge you and find the ones who are pleasant to spend time with. No one is perfect, and you may find that if you socialize with even the ones with a few flaws, they may have positives also. If you participate in an activity such as a bridge club or something, you may find more like-minded people. If you have a religious bent, a Gita discussion group may be a good place for you.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Ignore the persons who wish to judge you and find the ones who are pleasant to spend time with. No one is perfect, and you may find that if you socialize with even the ones with a few flaws, they may have positives also. If you participate in an activity such as a bridge club or something, you may find more like-minded people. If you have a religious bent, a Gita discussion group may be a good place for you.

Sorry, I don't want them to join me in my prayers. Just that I don't want them to judge me because I am a simple Hindu wanting to practice my faith. Is it too much to ask? Everyone of these convent educated trojan hindus makes a point to remind me about my doorbell, smiling in a conceited way, suggesting that they don't approve of it. Probably I should have jingle bells or some english tune to be fit to be their neighbours.

 

[Napa]

Sorry, I don't want them to join me in my prayers. Just that I don't want them to judge me because I am a simple Hindu wanting to practice my faith. Is it too much to ask? Everyone of these convent educated trojan hindus makes a point to remind me about my doorbell, smiling in a conceited way, suggesting that they don't approve of it. Probably I should have jingle bells or some english tune to be fit to be their neighbours.

If they are judging you and are also conceited, then it is best for you to avoid their company. There are surely others you can socialize with who respect your beliefs.

 

[DW44]

Trade places with me OP? I live in Pakistan so I have all those things that you crave and I would give anything to get away to an Islam/Muslim free environment.

 

[shaykh]

Looking at what Cricketcartoons has raised ...I guess the lack of community feeling is also quite an urban thing ...

Rural areas in countries I've been to tend to have much more of a community feel ...families living close together etc ...

Being somewhere as diverse as London in many ways does in a strange way kill community spirit ...and I'd say especially as an adult when you finish school and university these aspects of community break ...

I meet people individually rather than in the large groups we met in when we studied ...

Religion is a unifier in urban areas ...as I guess are things like school for parents ...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

That is quite a change, I recall you passionately defending religion many times in past...

BTW: We probably need to notarize from Khadam Rizvi Sahab or Peer Sadel Shrief, if "Agnostic Muslim" is an ok state

I have seen many people on PP in last 4/5 years have been more open to secular ideas and willing to think logically than emotionally. More importantly, many in Pakistan(including religious folks), realizing the need to diversify culture, move conversation to secular ideas rather than dogmatic ones, they are finding it hard to make progress by continue to invest in religious centric ECO system. Although slow but it is still a welcome change!!

I think that is just your perception, because I passionately lampoon atheists who spend their life passionately defending atheism and it's prophets like Dawkins and Neil Degrasse Tyson.

 

[Yossarian]

Trade places with me OP? I live in Pakistan so I have all those things that you crave and I would give anything to get away to an Islam/Muslim free environment.

It's that kind of desperation to get away which will discourage the "Islam/Muslim free environments" from taking you in. So you might as well make the best of where you are.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If it's not too personal, do you drink being an agnostic muslim or not?

Not a fan of alcohol or other drugs. One thing which I admire in Islam is there are clear lines on these issues which cause more harm than good. That said, I've grown up in a society where it is legal, hard to say what Britain would look like without it. Maybe worse in some ways as a lot of business and social life revolves around it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Best part is that Hinduism isn't even that strict.

Neither is Islam if you play your cards right. Quite acceptable to be a nominal Muslim who just gets by paying lip service as far as Islamic society is concerned, and get on with what you think is best for God and country the rest of the time. Does that make you a good Muslim? No. Is that what I'm recommending? No. But you can do that without anyone bothering you too much, at least in non Muslim countries. It might be a lot different in a Muslim country, but then I think I could live in any country given some time to get used to it.

 

[Varun]

Neither is Islam if you play your cards right. Quite acceptable to be a nominal Muslim who just gets by paying lip service as far as Islamic society is concerned, and get on with what you think is best for God and country the rest of the time. Does that make you a good Muslim? No. Is that what I'm recommending? No. But you can do that without anyone bothering you too much, at least in non Muslim countries. It might be a lot different in a Muslim country, but then I think I could live in any country given some time to get used to it.

But you have to make an actual effort to stray off the beaten track in Islam. In Hinduism, it's the default setting.

And when everybody's off the side of the highway, there isn't really much of a mainstream anymore.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

But you have to make an actual effort to stray off the beaten track in Islam. In Hinduism, it's the default setting.

And when everybody's off the side of the highway, there isn't really much of a mainstream anymore.

I still appreciate having the tracks there, if you take away the tracks, the train can end up in the ditch.

 

[Major]

As an Agnostic Muslim I feel I get the best of both worlds. I can generally mix in with other Muslims on the holy days ( which are quite boring in the UK let's face it) and at the same time, as a good British integrated citizen, I can also enjoy the Christmas period with all the Christmas movies, presents and commercial extravaganzas which are indeed good fun.

sometimes in future i would like to discuss regarding agnostic muslim with you if you dont mind.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

sometimes in future i would like to discuss regarding agnostic muslim with you if you dont mind.

Open a thread, let's get on it.

 

[DW44]

It's that kind of desperation to get away which will discourage the "Islam/Muslim free environments" from taking you in. So you might as well make the best of where you are.

Already got an invitation to apply from one such country and halfway through the immigration process for another. Turns out they value technical degrees, decent work experience and the ability to communicate in English rather highly.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Already got an invitation to apply from one such country and halfway through the immigration process for another. Turns out they value technical degrees, decent work experience and the ability to communicate in English rather highly.

Good for you man, it will be nice to see you in a place where you belong.

 

[Arham_PakFan]

I’m not sure what I believe in right now.Sometimes I feel that the world simply can’t not have a Creator.At other times I feel that it’s unlikely that God exists.I still pray namaz but at times I feel it is futile and a waste of time.Sometimes when I don’t pray namaz I feel guilty.

I am currently reading the translation of the Qur’an and studying it’s meaning.I also plan on performing Umrah with my family,next Ramadan.

 

[Yossarian]

But you have to make an actual effort to stray off the beaten track in Islam. In Hinduism, it's the default setting.

And when everybody's off the side of the highway, there isn't really much of a mainstream anymore.

Not really. Having lived/worked both in non-Muslims countries as well as in Muslim countries (- Saudi Arabia in fact), there's no difficulty whatsoever as long as you stay within the law.
Saudi Arabia has 3 types of ID cards (when I worked/lived there anyway). Saudi citizens, non-Saudi but Muslim expats, and non-saudi, non-Muslim expats.

I was a non-Saudi Muslim expats, but nobody tried to force me to do anything. The Arabs usually went off to pray at prayer times, but apart from the first few days when they invited me to come along (I made some excuse about having to finish something), they never asked as to why I was not joining them for prayers, even when on occasions we socialised together (dune or kite buggying in the desert, going diving in the Red Sea, and the numerous Saudi weddings I was always invited to).

 

[Yossarian]

Already got an invitation to apply from one such country and halfway through the immigration process for another. Turns out they value technical degrees, decent work experience and the ability to communicate in English rather highly.

Good for you. But I'd keep quiet about the "I would give anything to get away to an Islam/Muslim free environment". It might start alarm bells ringing.

 

[DW44]

Good for you. But I'd keep quiet about the "I would give anything to get away to an Islam/Muslim free environment". It might start alarm bells ringing.

People are more understanding than you give them credit for. Pakistan already has a bit of a reputation when it comes to religious minorities, and the spate of lynchings this year that got a fair bit of media coverage worldwide hasn't helped said reputation so most people tend to be fairly understanding of such sentiments in my experience provided there's some context to justify it (a white xenophobe who has never stepped foot in Pakistan expressing the same sentiment, for instance, will get a very different reaction to a Pakistani non Muslim). Granted Islam/Muslim free environment is not the best way to put it but the same sentiment expressed more tactfully usually gets a fairly sympathetic response, except from Pakistanis who tend to range from dismissive to hostile.

 

[Markhor]

Religion is another form of tribalism so its natural to feel like fellow believers are part of a wider community. Isn't that why religion was developed by humans in the first place ? I feel much closer affinity with fellow sports fans, or likeminded individuals in the case of political views, than many co-religionists.

I tend to stay away from these religious threads as spending countless hours discussing something so intangible and impossible to prove feels like a waste of energy. I'd say I'm culturally Muslim (in terms of diet, celebrating traditions like Eid) but very skeptical about religion's existence and don't practice it as much as perhaps one ought to. When you get older, its hard to believe all these fairytales you're brainwashed into believing unquestioningly - rather scripture should be taken as metaphors than literal truth. There are so many religions with ALL of them claiming to be the truth, with many different interpretations, when one should just take the positive messages from them.

I'm certainly not a theologian, but it seems like religion developed out of man's need to give themselves a purpose to their existence and reassure themselves there is an afterlife, as well as a form of political control and means of gaining power over people (see Pakistan).

When you read the scriptures - they are a bag of contradictions. The Old Testament is full of violent statements yet at the same time preaches of compassion and God's mercy. The Quran is the same - don't fool yourselves. Why these contradictions if we're to believe God is incapable of error ? Probably as scriptures reflect the fact humans ARE contradictions themselves - we can be compassionate yet selfish, desire peace yet capable of appalling violence.

All I try to do is not do wrong to others and try to treat others like I'd want to be treated myself. I wouldn't like to see religion completely exorcised from the planet nor do I believe its a source of all evil like some new age atheists argue, as religion can be a source of redemption for many and some religious organisations have done superb humanitarian work. Religion, like any other ideology like nationalism, communism or fascism can be used to justify violence.

 

[Yossarian]

People are more understanding than you give them credit for. Pakistan already has a bit of a reputation when it comes to religious minorities, and the spate of lynchings this year that got a fair bit of media coverage worldwide hasn't helped said reputation so most people tend to be fairly understanding of such sentiments in my experience provided there's some context to justify it (a white xenophobe who has never stepped foot in Pakistan expressing the same sentiment, for instance, will get a very different reaction to a Pakistani non Muslim). Granted Islam/Muslim free environment is not the best way to put it but the same sentiment expressed more tactfully usually gets a fairly sympathetic response, except from Pakistanis who tend to range from dismissive to hostile.

I can't disagree too much with you there. The number of Pakistanis claiming asylum in the West is staggering. Since very few can claim asylum on the pretext of persecution by the state due to their ethnicity or political beliefs, the new trick is to claim that they're converts from Islam (to, usually, Christianity) and by remaining in Pakistan their lives are in danger.

You will be astonished to learn how many Pakistanis (quite often family men with wives and children) who have overstayed their student or visitors visas, and been refused ILR (Indefinite Leave to Remain), then suddenly remember that they (the whole family) secretly converted to Christianity back in Pakistan, but forgot to mention it until all their ILR appeals had been exhausted. And now that they've remembered, they wish to apply for asylum as they fear for their lives if they went back.

 

[DW44]

I can't disagree too much with you there. The number of Pakistanis claiming asylum in the West is staggering. Since very few can claim asylum on the pretext of persecution by the state due to their ethnicity or political beliefs, the new trick is to claim that they're converts from Islam (to, usually, Christianity) and by remaining in Pakistan their lives are in danger.

You will be astonished to learn how many Pakistanis (quite often family men with wives and children) who have overstayed their student or visitors visas, and been refused ILR (Indefinite Leave to Remain), then suddenly remember that they (the whole family) secretly converted to Christianity back in Pakistan, but forgot to mention it until all their ILR appeals had been exhausted. And now that they've remembered, they wish to apply for asylum as they fear for their lives if they went back.

Well luckily I don't need to claim asylum anywhere. Several liberal democracies seem keen to have people with certain qualifications and relevant experience move there and that's my in.

 

[Yossarian]

Well luckily I don't need to claim asylum anywhere. Several liberal democracies seem keen to have people with certain qualifications and relevant experience move there and that's my in.

Well good luck.
Although in countries like the UK and USA, you normally need to have a guaranteed job offer from a reputable employer, along with the employer needing to show the authorities why they're employing someone from abroad instead of from within the country before issuing a work visa. (not so for EU citizens in the UK - hence Brexit). Discrimination on the basis of someone's religion is out of the question in that regard.

Being a UK citizen who has worked and lived in the USA, Middle East and a number of European countries, I'm surprised to hear about 'liberal democracies' indulging in positive discrimination on the basis of religion when recruiting from overseas. Perhaps you care to name some that you claim do this?

 

[Mughal]

Dear brother shaykh, deen of islam is fundamentally about formation of an ummah based upon deen of islam. Now question is, what is deen of islam? It is not what foolish mullahs and their blind followers believe and practice ie a set of baseless beliefs and useless practices which benefit none and cause plenty of harm to humanity due to which they are criticised by equally foolish people who claim to be highly educated but do not know the difference between deen of islam as told in the quran in its own proper context and what mullahs say about it because such people never spend the needed time for studying the quran properly.

People who claim to have read the quran never read it to make proper sense of its text in its own proper context and they have no idea about the way the quran needs to be understood.

They do not even realise the fact that to begin with there is a language barrier between God and humanity. It is because people are born babies and they do not know anything at the time of their births. They need a lot of time to learn things before they could reach the level of understanding things the quran requires of them for its proper understanding.

For example, look at the way the quran tells people they need to be highly educated before they could understand the quran properly. It has many verses in it telling people to learn sense. It has verses which condemn people who remain ignorant or keep each other ignorant. It compares such people to worse than animals. It invites learned people to ponder over its verses not ignorant people. It tell people it is guidance for learned people. It tells people God has given them brains and senses to be sensible through direct interaction with whatever God has provided for them for this purpose.

If still people who claim to be muslim or nonmuslim think they can remain ignorant and claim they know the message in the quran as it ought to be known then that is up to them but truth is they are a foolish people. The quran is highly scientific in its approach to issues it discusses in it. It uses scientific method in convincing people about the issues and does not ask them to accept things blindly without any solid rationale behind them.

People assume they know all there is to be known about the quran but in actual fact they do not. They do not even know the way to understand the quran properly let alone anything else. They have no idea what is meant by the quran being a book of guidance for mankind. The quran was revealed for a set purpose and in that context the quran is a book of guidance. The purpose for which the quran was revealed is not known by humanity so far. The day people realise the purpose for which the quran is revealed things will start making perfect sense to them.

People expect the quran to be a book that tells them each and everything they will ever need to know so that they do not have to make any efforts to become educated by themselves. This is their utterly stupid assumption because for learning things God has given mankind brains, senses, bodies and things to experiment with and learn just like we give our kids toys to play with and learn. The quran only contains essential information for mankind which can help them learn higher level of knowledge that could help them know the purpose of the creation and revelation and how mankind could go about fulfilling that objective of God. It is because God created all things for his purpose alone and he planned all in that context and explained it in the quran for informing mankind.

For so long as people will bypass the quran and will not bother to study the universe the way it is supposed to be studied they will remain in identity crisis and confused. All because they do not know where they have come from, and where they are going to end up and how they are supposed to live in this world. However time will come when all this will happen with people ie they will in time come to realise enough is enough and they will become serious about knowing things the way they are supposed to be known. Human world is slowly but surely moving towards that end. It is at that time deen of islam will become fully established in the universe by efforts of people themselves.

At the moment people are busy building the needed blocks for that time and when that time comes they will bring those already built blocks together and complete the picture. Meanwhile things will continue as they have been and people will keep making each other suffer and learn the truth the hard way.

regards and all the best.

 

[DW44]

Well good luck.
Although in countries like the UK and USA, you normally need to have a guaranteed job offer from a reputable employer, along with the employer needing to show the authorities why they're employing someone from abroad instead of from within the country before issuing a work visa. (not so for EU citizens in the UK - hence Brexit). Discrimination on the basis of someone's religion is out of the question in that regard.

In countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Denmark, among others, you don't need a guaranteed job offer. You get a certain amount of points for your age, educational credentials, work experience, language proficiency and a few other factors. If you have enough points, you can submit an expression of interest and if they want, they send you an invitation to apply with the incentive being that they offer permanent resident status from day one.

Being a UK citizen who has worked and lived in the USA, Middle East and a number of European countries, I'm surprised to hear about 'liberal democracies' indulging in positive discrimination on the basis of religion when recruiting from overseas. Perhaps you care to name some that you claim do this?

Question is when and where did you hear about it because I certainly said no such thing here unless you're making connections where there are none. My disdain for religion is my motivation to leave, not the means through which I make my exit. The means are my educational qualifications, work experience and so on which all add up to considerably more points than any of the countries listed above require for their skill based migrant programs. If there's still confusion, let me break it down into easier to follow steps to clarify what's actually happening:
I don't like religion. I look for a way out to a less religious environment and discover that I qualify for a few countries' skill based migrant programs. I apply for those. Get invited to apply. Apply.

At no point did I implicitly or explicitly say that an applicant's views on religion factor into the application process, that's something you incorrectly inferred based on... I honestly don't know what.

 

[Yossarian]

In countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Denmark, among others, you don't need a guaranteed job offer. You get a certain amount of points for your age, educational credentials, work experience, language proficiency and a few other factors. If you have enough points, you can submit an expression of interest and if they want, they send you an invitation to apply with the incentive being that they offer permanent resident status from day one..

Now that you've clarified that you're talking about the points based immigration system that many countries use to decide who is allowed to immigrate and who isn't, I see where you're coming from. Even many in the UK are advocating such a system after Brexit.

I understand that Australia, for example, changes the points/skills on a regular basis depending upon what skills are in short supply in the country at that moment in time. I recall reading (can't say if this is true or not) that a few years ago skills like plumbers, electricians, painters, even hairdressers were fairly high up on the list, ahead of even many 'highly educated professional skills' due to the fact that there was no shortage of these ''highly educated professional skills', whereas there was a consideral shortage of those with the aforementioned skills in some parts of the country.

Anyway good luck with your efforts to leave Pakistan and move to another country.

 

[DW44]

Now that you've clarified that you're talking about the points based immigration system that many countries use to decide who is allowed to immigrate and who isn't, I see where you're coming from. Even many in the UK are advocating such a system after Brexit.

The fact that there was a Brexit comes down to anti immigration sentiment. The whole points based system was a red herring from the right, just like the 350 million GBP a week for the NHS was. UK has no appetite for more immigration, skilled or otherwise. Brexit, regardless of how much the Tories and their constituents try to paint it, was about immigration. There was a time I regretted my decision not to stay on after university but in light of recent events, it seems like a blessing in disguise.

I understand that Australia, for example, changes the points/skills on a regular basis depending upon what skills are in short supply in the country at that moment in time. I recall reading (can't say if this is true or not) that a few years ago skills like plumbers, electricians, painters, even hairdressers were fairly high up on the list, ahead of even many 'highly educated professional skills' due to the fact that there was no shortage of these ''highly educated professional skills', whereas there was a consideral shortage of those with the aforementioned skills in some parts of the country.

The overwhelming majority of Pakistanis who go for such programs tend to have degrees in either some form of engineering or IT. Canada takes business grads too but for Australia and NZ, it's strictly technical degrees. Australia hasn't changed it's points system since 2011 or 2013, I can't recall exactly which, but all three countries tend to prioritize engineering, IT and hard science degrees fairly highly, something that has survived the various overhauls of the points test so I doubt that there's a glut of engineers and scientists there if they're actively courting more from abroad.