Stephen Fleming - Why is he so underrated?

[Hasan123]

Literally no one mentions him on PP about how good a leader he was for New Zealand. His batting stats don't look that good but an average of 40 after 111 tests isn't exactly bad. Also he took 170 catches in tests which is the 3rd highest aggregate.

He drew a series in 2001-2002 with atg Australian team in Australia, he also beat England in England. He was captain for over 80 tests and took NZ to the world cup semis in 2007. He didn't have the best players in the world yet he achieved some amazing things but is never ever talked about on this forum or by cricketing pundits.

For me he is underated and one of my favourite New Zealand players of all time.

Is he underated in your opnion or not?

Discuss....

 

[Buffet]

He is rated as a gun captain. In PP, you are likely to not hear much about him because mainly Indian and Pakistani captains get compared. I am pretty sure that even in PP, posters rate him high in captaincy. At least by fans who watched him in action.

 

[Hasan123]

He is rated as a gun captain. In PP, you are likely to not hear much about him because mainly Indian and Pakistani captains get compared. I am pretty sure that even in PP, posters rate him high in captaincy. At least by fans who watched him in action.

He was a fantastic captain indeed, I understand why his batting isn't talked about as much but his captaincy was brilliant. He didn't have the services of a potential great in Shane Bond often but the attack he had he made best use of it.

He also led Nottinghamshire to a county championship

 

[Haroon786]

No one underrates him as a captain.

As a batsman, perhaps he is but on forums, unless you are a bonafide legend or a recent player, most other cricketers are not discussed frequently.

 

[Hasan123]

No one underrates him as a captain.

As a batsman, perhaps he is but on forums, unless you are a bonafide legend or a recent player, most other cricketers are not discussed frequently.

As a capatin he is underrated. Bmac is given loads of praise by pundits don't see anyone talking about Fleming.

 

[Haroon786]

As a capatin he is underrated. Bmac is given loads of praise by pundits don't see anyone talking about Fleming.

Recency bias.

Most threads are about current players and captains. Similarly, pundits talk about the current series in hand, not an ex player unless you're a Pakistani pundit for whom it's quite common actually.

 

[shaz619]

I don't think he is underrated at all, he's highly respected as the glue which held NZ together for years! to his credit was a great opening batsman to and his 9 hundreds + average of 40 vindicate that; he also played in a highly competitive environment full of quality, it wasn't easy to score runs then and conditions were tougher to, I do agree that everything is superficial and it's all about image/gimmicks these days, only reason why we exaggerate the performances of the Motorway King from India.

 

[Hasan123]

Recency bias.

Most threads are about current players and captains. Similarly, pundits talk about the current series in hand, not an ex player unless you're a Pakistani pundit for whom it's quite common actually.

There are plenty of threads about players from the past.

 

[Haroon786]

There are plenty of threads about players from the past.

Read my initial post - most threads about ex cricketers are discussing great players, also if there is a thread discussing the best captains, I am sure that Fleming will be one of the names mentioned.

 

[Hasan123]

I don't think he is underrated at all, he's highly respected as the glue which held NZ together for years! to his credit was a great opening batsman to and his 9 hundreds + average of 40 vindicate that; he also played in a highly competitive environment full of quality, it wasn't easy to score runs then and conditions were tougher to, I do agree that everything is superficial and it's all about image/gimmicks these days, only reason why we exaggerate the performances of the Motorway King from India.

For me he is underrated. He led an average team yet had a lot of success with them, he faced some tough bowlers and still averaged 40 after 111 tests yet is never mentioned.

Look at how Williamson is struggling with an average team, whilst I'm not writing him off as a leader you can't help but think Fleming wouldn't do a better job. Also you appreciate how good he was when you see Williamson struggle with current team.

 

[shaz619]

For me he is underrated. He led an average team yet had a lot of success with them, he faced some tough bowlers and still averaged 40 after 111 tests yet is never mentioned.

Look at how Williamson is struggling with an average team, whilst I'm not writing him off as a leader you can't help but think Fleming wouldn't do a better job. Also you appreciate how good he was when you see Williamson struggle with current team.

Well you've mentioned him! I'd say he's not discussed as much because we all universally agree that he was absolute quality, I'd say perhaps NZ fans may have taken him for granted though and he could be a little underrated there but around the world well respected and arguably deserves a hall of fame induction. I admired him as a young kid and always enjoyed watching him bat and got frustrated by him when he faced pak he'd put a heavy price on his wicket

 

[Hasan123]

Well you've mentioned him! I'd say he's not discussed as much because we all universally agree that he was absolute quality, I'd say perhaps NZ fans may have taken him for granted though and he could be a little underrated there but around the world well respected and arguably deserves a hall of fame induction. I admired him as a young kid and always enjoyed watching him bat and got frustrated by him when he faced pak he'd put a heavy price on his wicket

I think in India he is rated highly due to his coaching stints in the ipl but in other countries he doesn't seem to be talked about as much.

Lol I can remember as a kid when he led Nottinghamshire to the county championship which was a big achievement for them at the time

 

[Jin Chacha]

He is a little underrated as a captain.

As a batsman he is not underrated at all. He was a stylish player but 7000 runs at an avg of 40 in 100 tests is only a good record. It is not a great one. People like Atapattu and Thorpe have similar numbers and you don't even hear about them.

 

[shaz619]

I think in India he is rated highly due to his coaching stints in the ipl but in other countries he doesn't seem to be talked about as much.

Lol I can remember as a kid when he led Nottinghamshire to the county championship which was a big achievement for them at the time

Well that's of no surprise, it's not like Indians are experts on cricket so not much to write about that.

He was made an Officer of the New Zealand Order of Merit in the 2011 Queen's Birthday Honours, for services to cricket. So perhaps his efforts were not forgotten in NZ, I think he's an ATG captain and master strategist who lead from the front, will be inducted in to the HOF one day and you'll see then that very few will argue against that given that he's highly rated by the people who know their stuff.

 

[Hasan123]

Well that's of no surprise, it's not like Indians are experts on cricket so not much to write about that.

He was made an Officer of the New Zealand Order of Merit in the 2011 Queen's Birthday Honours, for services to cricket. So perhaps his efforts were not forgotten in NZ, I think he's an ATG captain and master strategist who lead from the front, will be inducted in to the HOF one day and you'll see then that very few will argue against that given that he's highly rated by the people who know their stuff.

So New Zealand rate him highly it seems but not the rest of the cricketing world.

Agreed certainly an atg captain, remember he didn't often have a fully fit Shane Bond for his captaincy regin.

 

[Buffet]

So New Zealand rate him highly it seems but not the rest of the cricketing world.

Why do you think that he is not rated high as captain by rest of cricket world? He is rated pretty high as a captain. One of the best captain I have seen.

 

[Hasan123]

Why do you think that he is not rated high as captain by rest of cricket world? He is rated pretty high as a captain. One of the best captain I have seen.

I rate him highly bhai. Just don't see many others rating him highly. Hear lots about how good Cook and Misbah have done in recent times but Fleming did an even better job than both imo.

 

[Buffet]

Just don't see many others rating him highly. Hear lots about how good Cook and Misbah have done in recent times but Fleming did an even better job than both imo.

Cook and Misbah come no where close to Fleming as captain. It's just that you are always going to hear more about currently playing captains than retired ones.

For example, Damien Martyn is rated pretty high, not an ATG, but very high because he helped to beat India in India and got MOS. Still, you won't hear his name often in PP. Without Martyn , Aus would not have beaten India in India. We don't tallk about him because he is history, but not an ATG player.

 

[shaz619]

So New Zealand rate him highly it seems but not the rest of the cricketing world.

Agreed certainly an atg captain, remember he didn't often have a fully fit Shane Bond for his captaincy regin.

I'd say generally he is rated all around the world but the biggest criticism is that he underachieved to an extent, despite his technique and skill he didn't convert his 50's to 100's as much as he'd like and this is vindicated by a staggering number of 50's (46) but only 9 hundreds. He always seemed to be on the brink of cementing his greatness once and for all but never quiet got there, e.g nearly won a series against one of the greatest Australian sides ever in Australia, he nearly won a series in India and he nearly won a series in Sri Lanka.

But it's also important to remember that as far as his batting was concerned he also had to captain/opener so there was pressure there to go along with being an opening batsman plus it was tough in that era, I'd say that in the moment he was underrated but you need time to look at the career of a player and when you look back at Fleming I believe most will admit they didn't appreciate him as much but definitely grew to value him. One thing which isn't in doubt is his influence on NZ cricket and how he spearheaded his vision with strategic prowess.

 

[Hasan123]

I'd say generally he is rated all around the world but the biggest criticism is that he underachieved to an extent, despite his technique and skill he didn't convert his 50's to 100's as much as he'd like and this is vindicated by a staggering number of 50's (46) but only 9 hundreds. He always seemed to be on the brink of cementing his greatness once and for all but never quiet got there, e.g nearly won a series against one of the greatest Australian sides ever in Australia, he nearly won a series in India and he nearly won a series in Sri Lanka.

But it's also important to remember that as far as his batting was concerned he also had to captain/opener so there was pressure there to go along with being an opening batsman plus it was tough in that era, I'd say that in the moment he was underrated but you need time to look at the career of a player and when you look back at Fleming I believe most will admit they didn't appreciate him as much but definitely grew to value him. One thing which isn't in doubt is his influence on NZ cricket and how he spearheaded his vision with strategic prowess.

As a batsmen I understand why he is underated. I think in this era where pitches are more suited for batting he would have averaged closer to 50.

 

[Hasan123]

Cook and Misbah come no where close to Fleming as captain. It's just that you are always going to hear more about currently playing captains than retired ones.

For example, Damien Martyn is rated pretty high, not an ATG, but very high because he helped to beat India in India and got MOS. Still, you won't hear his name often in PP. Without Martyn , Aus would not have beaten India in India. We don't tallk about him because he is history, but not an ATG player.

Yep understand where your coming from. There are loads of examples of players like that.

NZ had an average team at the time of Flemings captaincy yet he achieved great things so I think he deserved more praise and credit than he gets.

 

[Buffet]

Yep understand where your coming from. There are loads of examples of players like that.

NZ had an average team at the time of Flemings captaincy yet he achieved great things so I think he deserved more praise and credit than he gets.

If you open a thread even in PP asking who is better captain between Misbah and Fleming then I think you will see Fleming getting more votes. It's just that he doesn't get talked much, but over all fans do rate him high as captain. Getting discussed in different forums depends on many factors. Certain players( who are not ATG) get discussed more in PP and names will change when you go to other forums. It's the nature of demography.

 

[The_Odd_One]

I don't think anybody underrates him as a captain. He was definitely better than McCallum who I find extremely overrated. However, as a batsman, Fleming was just average.

 

[coy0607]

he's arguably the greatest captain I've ever seen, he got a lot out of a very very mediocre NZ team

as a batsmen, he was really ordinary till the last 2-3 years of his career

he's not underrated, he just not an ATG. and if you're not an ATG you don't get talked about a lot after retirement, just how it is

 

[Executioner]

He was a gun player no doubt but no one discusses about former players unless they were really good.

Fleming had an average of 40. Tamim Iqbal has an average of 40 and we Bangladeshis don't hail him as world class. Still our best opener but will be forgotten once he retires unless he does exceptionally well in the latter half of his career which is quite possible given how exceptional he has been since the World Cup in all formats.

To be remembered, you need to do something substantial. Something which greats have done and thats why they are called greats.

 

[Ab Fan]

A brilliant leader and a very gutsy cricketer.

Definitely will be talked while talking about greatest NZ players.

I dont think he is behind anyone else bar Williamson and Crowe among kiwi batsmen.

He is very respected player.

Averages 60+ in Asia.

A Kiwi version of Alastair Cook although a much better leader.

 

[leatherface58]

He was a more astute captain than McCullum who got carried away with the aggression sometimes. Excellent catcher and was saddled with few good players in an otherwise mediocre side. He would have done very good with the side Macca had though Macca did pretty well too.

His century in WC 2003 where he uncharacteristically destroyed SA in SA was legendary.

 

[Robert]

Excellent skipper, excellent slip catcher, decent batsman.

 

[Aman]

Wish he would become the NZ coach so he could guide Kane as captain...

 

[shaz619]

In the early to mid 2000's stephen fleming and shane bond were my favourite NZ players

 

[MenInG]

Former Black Caps captain Stephen Fleming has revealed the moment when he knew it was time to retire from international cricket.

The cricketer turned Spark Sport commentator said he battled with anxiety in the twilight of his professional career, when asked by a viewer about his decision to retire in 2008, during Monday's broadcast of the second test between New Zealand and Pakistan.

In a candid answer, Fleming said he was driving to a test match in Wellington and was sick in his stomach at the thought of going out to bat.

“To be honest I actually lost my nerve,” Fleming said during the Spark Sport broadcast. “I was batting and I was that nervous I was almost sick.

“I love the game but I was falling out of love with the game pretty quick, and I had to make a decision around my next 12 months and right there and there it was I’m ready to go. And the next 12 months it was a freedom, a release and I could enjoy the game again.

“But it was just the pressures and the nerves and the anxieties. It just wore away after time and I thought I'd love to stay in love with the game and leave it now.”

Fleming retired from international cricket in 2008 after playing 111 tests for New Zealand, 80 as captain.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/crick...nt-stephen-fleming-knew-it-was-time-to-retire