The Inimical Impact Of Indo-Pak comparisons

[leonidas_alexandar]

As a cricket fan of India in the 90's - I remember marveling at the performances of Pakistan whenever they faced India. Pakistan mostly won and there were many times my emotions were imbued with a sense of amazement at Pakistan's killer instinct, helplessness at our own spineless performances (I still remember the 1998 series when Pakistan toured India and routed India in the ODI's) , jealousy, fear of losing etc.,

While in the 90's the Indian players may have been aware of the expectations of the fans vis-a-vis Pakistan - they were not surrounded by the ubiquitous 24/7 news channels, perennial supply of Youtube videos by ex-cricketers, social media meltdowns of the so called journalists etc.,

Since the time India won its Brisbane test match - Shoaib Akhtar, Inzamam Ul Haq, Rashid Latif, Saeed Ajmal, Kamran Akmal and a whole bunch of Pakistani journalists have made so many videos on the Indian series victory.

While everyone showered effusive praise on the Indian team - inevitably the comparisons to Pakistan's performances in New Zealand were drawn.

There were pointed references to the "excuses" made by the Pakistan team management that Babar's absence was a major factor - and that got immediately slapped down by pointing out to India's own travails with injuries and them missing key players.

While I understand comparisons are inevitable given the similarities in our language, culture and fan attitude to our teams - I really fear for the sort of pressure Pakistani cricket players might be under with all this extraneous noise.

Yes, an argument can be made that a modern cricketer should expect such scrutiny, comparisons etc., but at some point this does become an unnecessary distraction and possibly a mental burden.

In the next few days India will be playing England and Pakistan will be playing South Africa.

In fact on the 04th of February both India and Pakistan will be playing their 1st and 2nd test matches respectively - on the same day.

If India happens to perform well and Pakistan God forbid has difficulty in its match with South Africa - I really dread the backlash from all these ex cricketers and YouTube analysts with the Indo-Pak comparisons.

Do you think - these ex cricketers and journalists should at the very least temper the language when making comparisons if not fully avoiding comparisons with India?

 

[Sir Alex]

What a coincidence, I just posted following in another thread.

If India loses the England tests, and Pak wins, Indians will.lambast their players, but they won't be too bothered with comparisons with Pakistan. They understand its like comparing apples and oranges. They have moved on from Pakistani fixation.

For a long time Indian cricket was fixated with Pakistan and vice versa. The players could be tripe but if they performed against India or Pakistan , they automatically got an extension. Even fans too were quick to forget failures against other teams as long as they had a win or two to savour against the old enemy.

India moved on from this aspect in the 2000s. After the win in 2001 and successful defence of Border Gavaskar trophy in Australia in 2003-04, Australia became priority nation for India - resulting in more tours between them in thr next decades. And dramatic moments for fans occurred with the Monkey Gate episode in 2008, and firmly replaced Aus as opponent number 1. Also given political reasons, and combined with Pakistan's general drop in performances, Pakistan started slipping down the priority list of India.

The series wins in Eng in 2007 and in NZ in 2009, followed by a hard fought draw in SA in 2011 made fans demand for more and more. IPL had started bringing in lots of cash for BCCI and players were becoming lesser intimidated by foreign players. Add to this the WC 2011 and T20 WC win in 2007 made India believe they can beat any opposition. BCCI management as a result of IPL get exposed to best player management and development techniques and started implementing those. More money got pumped into grassroots. Also people realised that cricket could be a viable profession even if they didn't get to national team. Even playing domestic cricket now could earn decent money. Not to mention the odd IPL contract.

Then came the duo of Shastri and Kohli who practically reinvented the way India approached cricket. The priority became hard, aggressive cricket - to win and not to just play out drab defensive cricket. Test cricket became attractive once again and BCCI went all out to find players who would do justice to this ideology. And more importantly BCCI learnt how IPL could actually augment their test players and make them more rounded, adaptive and resilient and not just single minded, rigid players.

Meanwhile I think Pakistan cricket stagnated. There were a few things out if their control like the 2009 attacks. But I always got the feeling they never really moved forward from their India fixation. Mediocrity still continued to be tolerated, as long as they could grab a win vs India. The best example for this was the 2017 champions trophy win. Suddenly a mediocre cricketer like Fakhar Zaman was considered as best opening batsman in the world, and Sarfaraz Ahmed was being compared to great Imran Khan and the like. The need to perform well consistently in tours, especially tests, were not a priority. India of course continued to win in world cups and other matches vs Pakistan but those were not considered as any guarantee for their players for a long run in the Indian team.

The earlier Pakistani establishment and fans move away from this India fixation, the better.

 

[Darkrai]

The fans and media need to realize that there is no point in comparing us to teams like India because they are far ahead of us. It doesn't make sense to expect similar performances from Pakistan to that which India is putting out.

We always find a way to blame someone or something, whether it's the coaching staff, selectors, captain, injuries, PCB, etc.

A few months ago, you had several people claiming that the Pakistan team will emerge as a top team in this decade, and our youngsters will become the next ABDs and Kohlis.

After the cyclic reality check, it seems some of them no longer back those players to become the next legends and have put the blame on others.

Anyway, it's ok to have expectations from your team but be realistic. There is no need to bash the team and players whenever India gives a brilliant performance that we can only imagine.

We all want our team and players to succeed, but let's not make a fool of ourselves as many people have, especially in the last few weeks.

 

[Savak]

As a cricket fan of India in the 90's - I remember marveling at the performances of Pakistan whenever they faced India. Pakistan mostly won and there were many times my emotions were imbued with a sense of amazement at Pakistan's killer instinct, helplessness at our own spineless performances (I still remember the 1998 series when Pakistan toured India and routed India in the ODI's) , jealousy, fear of losing etc.,

While in the 90's the Indian players may have been aware of the expectations of the fans vis-a-vis Pakistan - they were not surrounded by the ubiquitous 24/7 news channels, perennial supply of Youtube videos by ex-cricketers, social media meltdowns of the so called journalists etc.,

Since the time India won its Brisbane test match - Shoaib Akhtar, Inzamam Ul Haq, Rashid Latif, Saeed Ajmal, Kamran Akmal and a whole bunch of Pakistani journalists have made so many videos on the Indian series victory.

While everyone showered effusive praise on the Indian team - inevitably the comparisons to Pakistan's performances in New Zealand were drawn.

There were pointed references to the "excuses" made by the Pakistan team management that Babar's absence was a major factor - and that got immediately slapped down by pointing out to India's own travails with injuries and them missing key players.

While I understand comparisons are inevitable given the similarities in our language, culture and fan attitude to our teams - I really fear for the sort of pressure Pakistani cricket players might be under with all this extraneous noise.

Yes, an argument can be made that a modern cricketer should expect such scrutiny, comparisons etc., but at some point this does become an unnecessary distraction and possibly a mental burden.

In the next few days India will be playing England and Pakistan will be playing South Africa.

In fact on the 04th of February both India and Pakistan will be playing their 1st and 2nd test matches respectively - on the same day.

If India happens to perform well and Pakistan God forbid has difficulty in its match with South Africa - I really dread the backlash from all these ex cricketers and YouTube analysts with the Indo-Pak comparisons.

Do you think - these ex cricketers and journalists should at the very least temper the language when making comparisons if not fully avoiding comparisons with India?

Sometimes pressure is a good thing, i think if you compare our Pakistani players vs the Indian players in the last 10 years, you can clearly see a work ethic problem and attitudes towards fitness, training. Do Pakistani players put themselves in the best position to perform to their optimum? Do they really work hard on their skills and games? Do they really want to jump to the next level or do they believe in resting on past laurels?

There is a reason why the Pakistani team is languishing in the bottom 3 rankings because only in Pakistan will the likes of Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq be persisted with for so long even though their average is horrible in the last 2 years, only in Pakistan will Abbas keep playing for 2 years even though he has taken only 24 wickets in his last 13 matches, only in Pakistan will Yasir Shah keeping getting picked on SENA tours for the last 4 years even though his performances outside his comfort zone are pathetic.

I in contrast look at a player like Ravindra Jadeja, he is not the most talented but the guy does the hard yards in everything he has under control i.e. his fitness, his fielding, his bowling, he is not the most talented batsman but he has worked on his batting because he knows given the competition in the team, he has to be at his best or he could get dropped and therefore have to wait for a long time.

I want a Pakistani team with a Squad of 11 to 16 players who are really hungry for success and not just turning up like its just a 9-5 govt job. The selectors need to start getting tough with players who play just one good innings and go missing 9 times because that explains why we are languishing at the bottom.

 

[Savak]

Also i don't agree with India moving on from their Pakistan fixation. The team had to deal with a blackclash home after the 2017 CT Final. I remember spectators throwing stones, bottles in the field in 2005 and in 2012-13 when Pakistan beat India in India. The Indians do not take us seriously because Pakistan has been so poor against India since 2006 that they just take it for granted that 9 times out of 10 they will easily beat Pakistan, it is just like how the Australians felt when playing against the English from 1989 to 2005 in the Ashes.

The came the 2005 ashes and England stunned the entire world by beating the greatest Australian team to grace the pitch in the 2005 ashes and the Australians were so stunned, hurt by the defeat that they decided to terminate the careers of players like Gillespie, Kasprowicz, Damien Martyn and even Hayden got dropped from the ODI team for a while.

I guarantee you if this present Pakistani team if playing against the Current Indian team right now pulls of an unexpected surprise and beats India in a Billateral ODI series, Test series, there will be a huge backclash in the media, among ex players.

Indians are very happy and comfortable because they know right now that the rankings don't lie and that they are a very superior side to Pakistan who are at their lowest eb but don't tell me that they have moved beyond their Pakistan obsession.

 

[Savak]

Its like if you work for a corporation, there is a super star performer and then there is another employee who is not delivering as expected, the management will not adopt the attitude that there is no point in comparing the performances of these two individuals because the other guy is just too god gifted and superior whereas the other guy is not in the same league, they are going endlessly adulate the super star performer and they are going to turn the heat up on the guy who is not performing as per expectations and that guy who is under performing is going to be kicked out. This is not a sympathetic, kind, understanding world.

If the present Pakistani players continue to under perform and not deliver, the selectors will need to replace them with other players, newer players who are hungry to represent their country and to give it their all to win.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

All posts on this thread are excellent so far.

I would however like to say that though India-Pakistan comparisons do crop up, it’s not the major source of pressure.

We lost against NZ a few days before India won against Aus - the knives were already out and the changes were already happening behind the scenes.

Media was already in fury and dressing room was already in turmoil.

Most of this frustration is with underperformance, but digging deeper it’s actually on a couple of things that can be controlled.

Fielding.
Selection.
Having bowling plans in place.

These are things under our control. However, we continue to shell games because we are not professional in any of these respects. Every Pakistan fan realizes that aside from Babar Azam and Shaheen Afridi, we have no world class players in the team. We realize we are comfortably a mid table side, but we also realize that there are things that can be done to help us punch at our weight and slightly above our weight too, which we are not doing.

We are more frustrated with the fact that we have to take the Afghanistan world cup game to the last over, and that we won 90% of the sessions in the first Test against England last year and then shelled it in the last two hours.

We are more frustrated with the 20 dropped catches against New Zealand than with Abbas’s bowling.

We are more frustrated with the fact that our management had no idea to tell our bowlers to bowl bouncers against Chris Woakes, or to come around the wicket to David Warner.

We are more frustrated with the failure to try out Fawad Alam and Saud Shakeel despite dominating the home circuit for years while the team failed internationally, or Tabish Khan while Musa Khan gets a Test debut after 1 FC game in his life. 600 par gaye tou par gaye Warner ke khilaaf, acceptable. But it’s the method of allowing him to make that 300 that bothers us.

That’s why the knives these days are out against Misbah, not the players. The issue is with management and lack of planning. Things that can be worked on if we put our mind to it.

Tldr; I don’t think Pakistani fans have as big of an obsession with India as you might think.

 

[wasim-fan]

Comparisons with India are inevitable. It’s neighbouring country with similar culture and problems. The cricketing rivalry is also a factor. Although, the gulf has never been this big in my view. India B team will probably be too good for Pakistan team at the moment. Sure India Pakistan matches can generate excitement still because of shared history. But the posture is gone from Pak players. They seem to be overawed with Indian players. In a one off they can still bear any team. But I am afraid with time the de linking could happen.

Having said that for Pakistan pundits, it makes sense to compare with India also to provoke some actions internally. Although, on flip side knee jerk reactions and short term measures won’t work.

 

[leonidas_alexandar]

All posts on this thread are excellent so far.

I would however like to say that though India-Pakistan comparisons do crop up, it’s not the major source of pressure.

We lost against NZ a few days before India won against Aus - the knives were already out and the changes were already happening behind the scenes.

Media was already in fury and dressing room was already in turmoil.

Most of this frustration is with underperformance, but digging deeper it’s actually on a couple of things that can be controlled.

Fielding.
Selection.
Having bowling plans in place.

These are things under our control. However, we continue to shell games because we are not professional in any of these respects. Every Pakistan fan realizes that aside from Babar Azam and Shaheen Afridi, we have no world class players in the team. We realize we are comfortably a mid table side, but we also realize that there are things that can be done to help us punch at our weight and slightly above our weight too, which we are not doing.

We are more frustrated with the fact that we have to take the Afghanistan world cup game to the last over, and that we won 90% of the sessions in the first Test against England last year and then shelled it in the last two hours.

We are more frustrated with the 20 dropped catches against New Zealand than with Abbas’s bowling.

We are more frustrated with the fact that our management had no idea to tell our bowlers to bowl bouncers against Chris Woakes, or to come around the wicket to David Warner.

We are more frustrated with the failure to try out Fawad Alam and Saud Shakeel despite dominating the home circuit for years while the team failed internationally, or Tabish Khan while Musa Khan gets a Test debut after 1 FC game in his life. 600 par gaye tou par gaye Warner ke khilaaf, acceptable. But it’s the method of allowing him to make that 300 that bothers us.

That’s why the knives these days are out against Misbah, not the players. The issue is with management and lack of planning. Things that can be worked on if we put our mind to it.

Tldr; I don’t think Pakistani fans have as big of an obsession with India as you might think.

I actually did not mention anything about a Pakistani fan obsession with India. I only said the very public and open criticism/comparison made by ex Pakistani players on public platforms like YouTube.

Whether the fans are obsessed with India or not - that I do not think matters but when the current Pakistani players see ex Pakistani players constantly referring their performances with that of the Indian ones - I feel it is unfair.

All I am saying is - in the public pronouncements of ex Pakistani cricketers or experts - they should be a little bit more considerate and temperate in their language.

I am actually all for comparisons at the level of fans - lets say on a platform like Pakpassion.

 

[leg-side-flick]

Comparisons with India are inevitable. It’s neighbouring country with similar culture and problems. The cricketing rivalry is also a factor. Although, the gulf has never been this big in my view. India B team will probably be too good for Pakistan team at the moment. Sure India Pakistan matches can generate excitement still because of shared history. But the posture is gone from Pak players. They seem to be overawed with Indian players.rk.

Honestly, without any bias, I don't think Pak cricket team is as bad as the you tubers would have you believe, it's poor no doubt right now, but it has the ingredients of a team that can continually challenge top 2 teams...

Also, I don't think India is as good as the world thinks right now

 

[leonidas_alexandar]

Also i don't agree with India moving on from their Pakistan fixation. The team had to deal with a blackclash home after the 2017 CT Final. I remember spectators throwing stones, bottles in the field in 2005 and in 2012-13 when Pakistan beat India in India. The Indians do not take us seriously because Pakistan has been so poor against India since 2006 that they just take it for granted that 9 times out of 10 they will easily beat Pakistan, it is just like how the Australians felt when playing against the English from 1989 to 2005 in the Ashes.

The came the 2005 ashes and England stunned the entire world by beating the greatest Australian team to grace the pitch in the 2005 ashes and the Australians were so stunned, hurt by the defeat that they decided to terminate the careers of players like Gillespie, Kasprowicz, Damien Martyn and even Hayden got dropped from the ODI team for a while.

I guarantee you if this present Pakistani team if playing against the Current Indian team right now pulls of an unexpected surprise and beats India in a Billateral ODI series, Test series, there will be a huge backclash in the media, among ex players.

Indians are very happy and comfortable because they know right now that the rankings don't lie and that they are a very superior side to Pakistan who are at their lowest eb but don't tell me that they have moved beyond their Pakistan obsession.

I agree with you 100% on the negative Indian fan reaction to a Pakistani loss.

But I am not talking about that. As I mentioned in my original post - I am talking more about publicly shaming or comparing Pakistani performances to the Indian ones.

It is easy to forget the challenges faced by Pakistan in the last decade or so. No other cricket team in the world had to face the unfortunate situation of not being able to play at home. I do not think many cricket teams would have flourished in such an adverse environment.

Anyway back to the main topic - to give you an example - I remember Shoaib Akhtar saying "Waha Rahul Dravid ko BCCI ney junior level pey kaam pey lagadiya hai -aur hamarey ex cricketers YouTube channels chala rahey hain"

That is just one example - there are so many players and experts drawing these comparisons on public platforms like YouTube - I do not think that is helpful at all.

I am all for fans like us talking or indulging in banter on forums like Pakpassion. It is a completely different ball game altogether for ex players to be doing this openly on public platforms or social media. That is where I encourage some restraint.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

I actually did not mention anything about a Pakistani fan obsession with India. I only said the very public and open criticism/comparison made by ex Pakistani players on public platforms like YouTube.

Whether the fans are obsessed with India or not - that I do not think matters but when the current Pakistani players see ex Pakistani players constantly referring their performances with that of the Indian ones - I feel it is unfair.

All I am saying is - in the public pronouncements of ex Pakistani cricketers or experts - they should be a little bit more considerate and temperate in their language.

I am actually all for comparisons at the level of fans - lets say on a platform like Pakpassion.

I suppose that’s true but for the same reasons I mentioned it’s only true to a certain extent. People like Shoaib Akhtar, Rashid Latif, Nauman Niaz had their knives out already. There are just as many comparisons to India as there are comparisons to other countries that are dominating at the time. Last year during and after the world cup England was the go to country that everyone was talking about to badmouth Pakistan, after that you had the Ashes where Australia became a talking point, then India went on a spree of domination against West Indies and India became the talking point.

Obviously there is a natural rivalry between India and Pakistan which inflates the comparisons to India, and there is a lot of money to be made from Indian YouTube users so references will be aplenty.

However, in terms of criticism directed, it is rarely in context of Indian success — the criticisms are already there, and this is often put in context of a lot of top countries including India. It’s just India is the number 1 country in the world to look to for any nation seeking to improve their cricket structure.

There was a comparison video by Inzamam talking about Rahul Dravid’s influence in the Indian setup. What’s wrong with this?

 

[Savak]

You also have to understand most ex players running their mouths in the media and youtube channels are from the era where Pakistan by and large had the upper hand against India. Naturally they will not be happy at seeing just how far behind their own team is now vs India. They are also supporters and fans just like us

 

[leonidas_alexandar]

I suppose that’s true but for the same reasons I mentioned it’s only true to a certain extent. People like Shoaib Akhtar, Rashid Latif, Nauman Niaz had their knives out already. There are just as many comparisons to India as there are comparisons to other countries that are dominating at the time. Last year during and after the world cup England was the go to country that everyone was talking about to badmouth Pakistan, after that you had the Ashes where Australia became a talking point, then India went on a spree of domination against West Indies and India became the talking point.

Obviously there is a natural rivalry between India and Pakistan which inflates the comparisons to India, and there is a lot of money to be made from Indian YouTube users so references will be aplenty.

However, in terms of criticism directed, it is rarely in context of Indian success — the criticisms are already there, and this is often put in context of a lot of top countries including India. It’s just India is the number 1 country in the world to look to for any nation seeking to improve their cricket structure.

There was a comparison video by Inzamam talking about Rahul Dravid’s influence in the Indian setup. What’s wrong with this?

I think you make a good point about the fact that the comparisons were always being made - it just so happens that this time India was in the picture so naturally the comparisons veered towards India.

To be honest - yes the common language and the huge Indian viewership no doubt also influences certain Pakistani YouTuber content.

Overall the best solution for all this to disappear is for Pakistan to step up its own game and what better opportunity than playing South Africa at home.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Anyway back to the main topic - to give you an example - I remember Shoaib Akhtar saying "Waha Rahul Dravid ko BCCI ney junior level pey kaam pey lagadiya hai -aur hamarey ex cricketers YouTube channels chala rahey hain"

I think this is an excellent observation, for example. I for one am thankful that our cricketers are not thickheaded enough to praise Shastri more than Dravid at this point in time. If they had praised Shastri, for example, or talked about Shubman Gill’s “jazba”, you would be 100% right.

However, you have to look at the nature of the comparison as well - Dravid is a comparison that I’m sure ECB and CA are looking at closely as well, difference is their cricketers don’t run youtube channels so you don’t hear about it on a daily basis.

So as long as these comparisons remain constructive, I don’t think there’s an inherent problem. There are definitely a lot of comparisons that are not constructive at all, so you’re completely right about that bit.

 

[Savak]

I actually like this Indian related pressure. It keeps our team on its toes and creates the pressure that is needed to get them to pick themselves up to improve or perish

 

[leonidas_alexandar]

You also have to understand most ex players running their mouths in the media and youtube channels are from the era where Pakistan by and large had the upper hand against India. Naturally they will not be happy at seeing just how far behind their own team is now vs India. They are also supporters and fans just like us

Yup, that is also a good point about most of these ex cricketers played in an era when they typically had an upper hand. Shoaib Akhtar is a special case. He was part of the 90's team when they trampled all over India and he was also part of the turn of team at the turn of the 20th century when India massively stepped up and achieved parity with Pakistan. I am not surprised he has many views and insights given his own experience of watching India evolve right in front of his eyes. He's made a few videos on that evolution.

 

[leonidas_alexandar]

I actually like this Indian related pressure. It keeps our team on its toes and creates the pressure that is needed to get them to pick themselves up to improve or perish

To the extent that it prevents the Pakistani team management from giving excuses like Babar was not available etc., I think it is good because - legitimately the journalists can come back by saying but the Indians played without their top 5-6 players - are you suggesting Pakistan's entire fortunes are on Babar's shoulders? That sort of pressure is good I believe.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Pakistan team of the past was good but they are over glorified and the their ex cricketers take advantage of that.

The current Pakistan team is not as bad as they are portrayed by the ex Pakistan cricketers.

 

[Savak]

Pakistan team of the past was good but they are over glorified and the their ex cricketers take advantage of that.

The current Pakistan team is not as bad as they are portrayed by the ex Pakistan cricketers.

I think conceding 659 runs and taking only 6 wickets on a green Christchurch wicket takes the cake as far as mediocrity is concerned.