The real reason why Pakistani batsmen fail out of UAE?

[MRSN]

This is a pretty valid question.

They score a lot of runs on UAE pitches that means they can bat right? but whenever they move outside UAE it's like they don't know how to bat at all. It's not just against good teams but they have shown their sturggle against even the mediocre bowling line up of Zimbabwe where we lost a test and made their team look like some a very good test playing nation team.

The problem what I assessed is that our batsmen on UAE flat roads wait and wait for the fast bowlers to get done with their overs. Especially players Azhar Ali,Misbah,YK these players don't bother at all to score against fast bowlers, to cut them or drive them or pull them on flat roads we are talking about. All they do is just wait for their spells to be over. At best they take singles and find odd boundary but they do not dominate and play their natural shots like they should as proper batsmen like we see Indian batsmen playing. They wait for the spinners to be brought in and they cash in for their most of the runs.

This mentality has been going on in Pakistan cricket in the last 6 years and I have always brought this to PP members who took it as insult against Pakistan's stalwarts batsmen.

I always knew that they will struggle once they play on surfaces where fast bowlers have upper hand. If we go back to 2013 series we see how we struggled against Steyn and co. and the Zimbabwean medium pacers. We make India's fast bowlers look like next coming of Waqar and Wasim.

The only way to improve is have a captain who doesn't demerit and insults players for not playing his natural cricket and instead promotes and shows patience and builds players who can play positive brand of cricket.
Enough of players like Sami Aslam already.

Finally I have to say that leadership plays a great role in shaping youngsters and other teams mentality.The success in UAE gave Misbah a full chance to control this team,their thinking,their planning,their selections,their approach. He completely forced his mentality to play cautious approach against fast bowlers and take charge against spinners. That was his natural approach if you have not forgotten.


Hopefully at the end of Aussie tours we see reforms in Pakistan's team and their mentality and approach and leadership. We don't want to win just for the sake of wins but we want to win to develop ourself into a strong team.

 

[Major]

Bounce. THey cant handle the bounce.

 

[MRSN]

Bounce. THey cant handle the bounce.

Baber Azam seems to be liking bounce. There is something collectively wrong with other batsmen.

 

[Major]

Baber Azam seems to be liking bounce. There is something collectively wrong with other batsmen.

lets judge him after a few tests shall we?

 

[MRSN]

lets judge him after a few tests shall we?

He has looked the best of the lot on a tough assignment. I don't need to wait. I have made my judgment already.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

If they were so bad, they wouldn't have drawn a series in England.

Its a frigging huge achievement which shouldn't be forgotten so soon. If India would have drawn a 4 match series in England, many Indian fans would have been jumping in joy.

The problem with Pakistan batsmen is that they are not good when it swings/seams/bounces/spins BIG.

They are really good when the swing/seam/bounce/spin is LITTLE.

Anyways, let's wait for the Aus tour and then judge.

 

[GLORY OF '92]

Some good points.

No doubt we just lack the shots against pace.

Hopefully we can improve otherwise we are in for more pain.

 

[static]

Because they don't play in these conditions, from making their first class debut to getting in to international cricket. The domestic wickets do not have bounce or pace or swing, how can they play swing if they have not encountered it at all in their careers? Overseas tours are rare, you cannot expect them to get good with such little cricket in these conditions. This is similar to why Aus, NZ or Eng can't play in pure spinning conditions.

 

[Major]

He has looked the best of the lot on a tough assignment. I don't need to wait. I have made my judgment already.

I heard the same posts when sOhaib Maqsood came in. Heard the same posts when Azhar ali came in as a new batsmen in England etc.

 

[Buffet]

Pakistan batted reasonably well in Eng so saying that they fail every time outside of UAE is wrong. Now, if we start talking about nature of pitch and all that then that's a different issue, but Pakistan can and has batted well outside of UAE. I think in SL also you batted well to win series.

 

[MRSN]

If they were so bad, they wouldn't have drawn a series in England.

Its a frigging huge achievement which shouldn't be forgotten so soon. If India would have drawn a 4 match series in England, many Indian fans would have been jumping in joy.

The problem with Pakistan batsmen is that they are not good when it swings/seams/bounces/spins BIG.

They are really good when the swing/seam/bounce/spin is LITTLE.

Anyways, let's wait for the Aus tour and then judge.

England team gifted wickets to Yasir's straight ones otherwise things could have been different. but batting was never convincing in that series too and the conditions are not the same in England. I think India will do as good as us on their next tour if conditions are same.

 

[coy0607]

Baber Azam seems to be liking bounce. There is something collectively wrong with other batsmen.

yeah- they either suck and are vastly overrated (Azhar and Asad) or are past their prime with rapidly deteriorating reflexes (Younis and Misbah)

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I've said this enough time in other threads but I'll repeat it here. There's nothing wrong with the Pakistan batsmen individually, none of them are bad per se, they just aren't world class. The real problem is the lack of balance between defence and attack. We currently have a test team made up of grinders which works fine on dust bowls in Asia. Abroad though you need to be able to attack, especially on wickets where there is seam or bounce. The middle order needs some stroke players who can bat positively once the new ball has been negotiated. On seaming wickets you are just as likely to get out defending as attacking except the scoreboard doesn't move while the batsmen are tuk-tuking.

 

[itsme]

If they were so bad, they wouldn't have drawn a series in England.

Its a frigging huge achievement which shouldn't be forgotten so soon. If India would have drawn a 4 match series in England, many Indian fans would have been jumping in joy.

The problem with Pakistan batsmen is that they are not good when it swings/seams/bounces/spins BIG.

They are really good when the swing/seam/bounce/spin is LITTLE.

Anyways, let's wait for the Aus tour and then judge.

It was a great effort to draw the serie but the pitches were flat.
Most of theses desert class batsmens will struggle even if there is little swing/seam .

 

[MRSN]

Pakistan batted reasonably well in Eng so saying that they fail every time outside of UAE is wrong. Now, if we start talking about nature of pitch and all that then that's a different issue, but Pakistan can and has batted well outside of UAE. I think in SL also you batted well to win series.

Woakes was the legendary bowler against us. Woakes who couldn't buy wicket against other teams and get benched was looked like some legend. if you read my op I clearly mentioned our batsmen avoid playing shots against fast bowler---even on flat roads of UAE.

That's the core of the issue we are facing. That's not the strategy you want to adopt. That's awful approach to have from your senior most batsmen. Even on England tour we scored majority of our runs against the likes of Moeen Ali and Rashid.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

England team gifted wickets to Yasir's straight ones otherwise things could have been different. but batting was never convincing in that series too and the conditions are not the same in England. I think India will do as good as us on their next tour if conditions are same.

Pakistan was useless in only 1 test out of 4. Even in the 3rd test, it was ahead for most part and then lost it in the last day due to brainless batting (aided by some fantastic penetrative English bowling - still shouldn't have lost it).

Whether India will do well or not is unknown.

India did well in Trent Bridge flat track, did extremely well in Lord's green track, screwed up on Southampton flat track, screwed up in Manchester swing track and got brutalized in Oval.

Not like we didn't get flat tracks in that tour. Gotta chalk it up as a series where things went awfully wrong and move on.

We will probably fight better next tour but that's another topic.

Pakistan batsmen are very methodical and can be extremely effective in certain kind of situations be it swing, seam, bounce or spin.

But somehow when the conditions favour one aspect of bowling too much, I see them floundering. And then you have the random collapses every now and then.

Also they don't seem to handle scoreboard pressure all too well in my opinion.

 

[MRSN]

I've said this enough time in other threads but I'll repeat it here. There's nothing wrong with the Pakistan batsmen individually, none of them are bad per se, they just aren't world class. The real problem is the lack of balance between defence and attack. We currently have a test team made up of grinders which works fine on dust bowls in Asia. Abroad though you need to be able to attack, especially on wickets where there is seam or bounce. The middle order needs some stroke players who can bat positively once the new ball has been negotiated. On seaming wickets you are just as likely to get out defending as attacking except the scoreboard doesn't move while the batsmen are tuk-tuking.

if you keep bowling Moeen Ali whole day they will keep attacking him whole day. So they do know how to attack but it's different that they do not apply same approach to fast bowlers. That's what they have they made part of their life. To not really look to score against fast bowlers unless there is really really a bad ball.

Misbah finding the only fielder put at boundary against spinner like Moeen Ali in his first over..why? Because fast bowlers spell dry his runs because he has never learned to get runs against fast bowlers and adopted extra cautious approach and as soon as spinner comes on he looks to go for his fav shots to get runs column going.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

It was a great effort to draw the serie but the pitches were flat.
Most of theses desert class batsmens will struggle even if there is little swing/seam .

There was little bit swing and seam around.

Its not like they scored on pattas.

 

[MRSN]

I heard the same posts when sOhaib Maqsood came in. Heard the same posts when Azhar ali came in as a new batsmen in England etc.

he showed more spine and resilience than the so called stalwarts of our batting so yes I have faith in him.

 

[Buffet]

Woakes was the legendary bowler against us. Woakes who couldn't buy wicket against other teams and get benched was looked like some legend. if you read my op I clearly mentioned our batsmen avoid playing shots against fast bowler---even on flat roads of UAE.

That's the core of the issue we are facing. That's not the strategy you want to adopt. That's awful approach to have from your senior most batsmen. Even on England tour we scored majority of our runs against the likes of Moeen Ali and Rashid.

Agree with the bold part. Pakistan often waits for spinners to score runs.

 

[Big Mac]

The only way to improve is have a captain who doesn't demerit and insults players for not playing his natural cricket and instead promotes and shows patience and builds players who can play positive brand of cricket.
Enough of players like Sami Aslam already.

Finally I have to say that leadership plays a great role in shaping youngsters and other teams mentality.The success in UAE gave Misbah a full chance to control this team,their thinking,their planning,their selections,their approach. He completely forced his mentality to play cautious approach against fast bowlers and take charge against spinners. That was his natural approach if you have not forgotten.


Hopefully at the end of Aussie tours we see reforms in Pakistan's team and their mentality and approach and leadership. We don't want to win just for the sake of wins but we want to win to develop ourself into a strong team.

Absolutely, look at all the Pakistani batsmen averaging 50+ in Australia and South Africa before Misbah took over.

Oh

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

if you keep bowling Moeen Ali whole day they will keep attacking him whole day. So they do know how to attack but it's different that they do not apply same approach to fast bowlers. That's what they have they made part of their life. To not really look to score against fast bowlers unless there is really really a bad ball.

Misbah finding the only fielder put at boundary against spinner like Moeen Ali in his first over..why? Because fast bowlers spell dry his runs because he has never learned to get runs against fast bowlers and adopted extra cautious approach and as soon as spinner comes on he looks to go for his fav shots to get runs column going.

Some players are comfortable playing fast bowlers, some aren't. Umar Akmal for example can attack fast bowlers and so can Sharjeel, but they lack ability to build innings and post big scores. Younis Khan and Asad Shafiq know how to build big scores, but they couldn't attack fast bowlers if their lives depended on it. They don't have the reactions or the shots.

 

[MRSN]

Some players are comfortable playing fast bowlers, some aren't. Umar Akmal for example can attack fast bowlers and so can Sharjeel, but they lack ability to build innings and post big scores. Younis Khan and Asad Shafiq know how to build big scores, but they couldn't attack fast bowlers if their lives depended on it. They don't have the reactions or the shots.

What do you call it? Mental or technical problem?

 

[MRSN]

Absolutely, look at all the Pakistani batsmen averaging 50+ in Australia and South Africa before Misbah took over.

Oh

but they weren't timid and defensive on flat roads either.

 

[street cricketer]

They did well in England.

They are just allergic to the south pole.

 

[Big Mac]

but they weren't timid and defensive on flat roads either.

Yet they drew more games than the current batch of timid and defensive players.

What do you call it? Mental or technical problem?

Obviously a mental problem. They're cowardly batsmen unlike brave warriors like Umar Akmal, who puts fast bowlers to the sword in such devastating fashion that he averages 33 in Australia and 24 in England.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Two reasons:

1. Pakistan lacks a batting culture. There is not a single Pakistani batsman in the 10K runs club.
2. Pakistani batsmen hardly play any Cricket outside Asia.

 

[MRSN]

Yet they drew more games than the current batch of timid and defensive players.



Obviously a mental problem. They're cowardly batsmen unlike brave warriors like Umar Akmal, who puts fast bowlers to the sword in such devastating fashion that he averages 33 in Australia and 24 in England.

yeah you forgot to realize most batsmen averaged in the 20s in that series because it was totally dominated by fast bowlers...and 33 is a very good average to have in Australia by a Pakistani standards or Asian batsmen standards...and how easily you forgot to mention his knocks against the likes of Bond and co. and how you forgot his match winning innings on his comeback against West Indies in their backyard where Asad Shafiq averaged in single digit. Selective justice right!!

 

[Big Mac]

yeah you forgot to realize most batsmen averaged in the 20s in that series because it was totally dominated by fast bowlers...and 33 is a very good average to have in Australia by a Pakistani standards or Asian batsmen standards...and how easily you forgot to mention his knocks against the likes of Bond and co. and how you forgot his match winning innings on his comeback against West Indies in their backyard where Asad Shafiq averaged in single digit. Selective justice right!!

I don't think you want to include the Windies as a tough place to bat when cowardly Misbah averages 60 there.

What happened to "This mentality has been going on in Pakistan cricket in the last 6 years and I have always brought this to PP members who took it as insult against Pakistan's stalwarts batsmen."?

There was no Misbah to instil this defensive mentality in the batsmen at that time so, according to this thread, the batsmen should have thrived in England and Australia with an attacking mindset?

For the last 6 years, Pakistani batsmen failing away from home is Misbah's fault but prior to that, it was due to pitches and good bowling? I hoped you'd have managed to hide your agenda for more than an hour.

 

[itsme]

There was little bit swing and seam around.

Its not like they scored on pattas.

Very little in first few overs.
Hard to get swing in sunny conditions and seam without grass.
And azhar and sami know where theirs off stump is so they are not that bad at seeing off the new ball,the problem from them is to score against pacers ,azhar even set wouldn't put bad balls away and sami play almost the same way,they have very few strokes.
Pak batting tactic is grinding out opposition bowlers and score against them when they are tired or waiting for the spinners/part timers,this will work on uae where you play around 150+overs a inning but you are rarely going to play this much overs on bowling friendly pitches,so you need batters who can put bad ball away especially against pacers in pak's case.
They tried the same approach in the first match 1st inning playing de grandhomme as the weak link and blocking the others,in the second innings they decides to grind out all the bowlers(cause de grandhomme wasn't the weak link anymore there was none/astle wasn't bowling much ) and waiting them to be tired to start scoring but on a seaming pitches you will rarely be able to do that.
Azhar played well even if he was on the slower side(he could have up the tempo when set but this wouldn't be azharesque) but the middle order is a liability against pacers.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What do you call it? Mental or technical problem?

Technical. Players who are comfortable playing fast bowlers usually see the ball early and have plenty of time to play the ball. Hafeez is probably one of our better players of fast bowlers in the last few years, he can pull and cut effectively against pace. Shame he's also an idiot.

 

[abughio]

i think **** bats lack confidence in themselves. they dont play attacking shots and more or less always fearing failure.

if we look at other teams even bangladesh. the 2nd test was purely won due to their tactical efficiency in which they score as many runs as they could in initial overs.

Similarly, after the shine is gone, pak batsmen should play some shots. it will force bowlers to change their line and length , which will benefit the batting team more

 

[Napa]

If they were so bad, they wouldn't have drawn a series in England.

Its a frigging huge achievement which shouldn't be forgotten so soon. <b>If India would have drawn a 4 match series in England, many Indian fans would have been jumping in joy.</b>

The problem with Pakistan batsmen is that they are not good when it swings/seams/bounces/spins BIG.

They are really good when the swing/seam/bounce/spin is LITTLE.

Anyways, let's wait for the Aus tour and then judge.

Speak for yourself. I would have been pleased but hardly jumping for joy. Being ranked #1 makes me jump for joy as it is a comprehensive indicator and not just based on one series against one country.

Then again, only recently you claimed that Pakistan's Test batting was superior to India's. Reality now lays waste to that claim.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Speak for yourself. I would have been pleased but hardly jumping for joy. Being ranked #1 makes me jump for joy as it is a comprehensive indicator and not just based on one series against one country.

Then again, only recently you claimed that Pakistan's Test batting was superior to India's. Reality now lays waste to that claim.

lol...you speak for yourself.

Common sense would dictate that Indians would love to draw the series against England in England.

It would also dictate that saying Indians would be pleased with that result doesn't mean Indians aren't jumping in joy with the recent performances.

Also where I claimed Pakistan's batting was superior to India? In what context did I make the claim? Let me know and I will respond.

And yes, Pakistan's batting did better in England than India. They have played spin better than India in recent times too (but they have their weaknesses when it turns big).

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

plz ur thoughts on the future of pakistan test team???is it gonna improve or it will be the same or will go down....?

I don't know really. Let's wait for Aussie tour to see what's what.

Pakistan is excellent in attritional cricket but unknown otherwise. So only time will tell.

 

[CricketCartoons]

lol...you speak for yourself.

Common sense would dictate that Indians would love to draw the series against England in England.

What a loser mentality to have. Love to draw a series? lmao

Only those will be satisfied or even happy with a drawn series if they were trailing and managed to win the last test. Otherwise no self respecting team or its fans will love to draw a series.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

What a loser mentality to have. Love to draw a series? lmao

Only those will be satisfied or even happy with a drawn series if they were trailing and managed to win the last test. Otherwise no self respecting team or its fans will love to draw a series.

Obviously it would be nice to win the series. But if you have to draw a 4 match series in modern era in a place like England (where they are really good), you have to win some games, save some games...so it would be a great achievement too.

Before you go all indignant, step back and think for a second before posting.

 

[Napa]

lol...you speak for yourself.

Common sense would dictate that Indians would love to draw the series against England in England.

It would also dictate that saying Indians would be pleased with that result doesn't mean Indians aren't jumping in joy with the recent performances.

Also where I claimed Pakistan's batting was superior to India? In what context did I make the claim? Let me know and I will respond.

And yes, Pakistan's batting did better in England than India. They have played spin better than India in recent times too (but they have their weaknesses when it turns big).

I was speaking only for myself, but you were speaking for other Indian fans.

It is rather difficult to locate a post, but your comment stuck in my mind. If you claim that you did not say that, then I would investigate further.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I was speaking only for myself, but you were speaking for other Indian fans.

It is rather difficult to locate a post, but your comment stuck in my mind. If you claim that you did not say that, then I would investigate further.

As I said, its basic common sense to assume that Indians would have been glad with a 2-2 win in England after the woeful show in 2011 and 2014.

I am sure I would have praised Pak batting, called it even better than India...but since you were claiming that I said something and reality was different, I asked you what context I made the comments, so I could respond.

In cricket, we judge based on how things move uptil that point plus take into how things are shaping. Result wise, there was a point when Pak batting was clearly producing results (and after Eng series it was very clear) but I also remember talking about how Indian batting was shaping up for future...hence I asked.

 

[The_Odd_One]

What a loser mentality to have. Love to draw a series? lmao

Only those will be satisfied or even happy with a drawn series if they were trailing and managed to win the last test. Otherwise no self respecting team or its fans will love to draw a series.

Drawing a series overseas is an achievement because most of the teams usually lose badly.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Obviously it would be nice to win the series. But if you have to draw a 4 match series in modern era in a place like England (where they are really good), you have to win some games, save some games...so it would be a great achievement too.

Before you go all indignant, step back and think for a second before posting.

Only a loser team and loser fans will think drawing a series is an achievement when they could have won it.

winning a series is nice, but drawing is great achievement? lmao

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Very little in first few overs.
Hard to get swing in sunny conditions and seam without grass.
And azhar and sami know where theirs off stump is so they are not that bad at seeing off the new ball,the problem from them is to score against pacers ,azhar even set wouldn't put bad balls away and sami play almost the same way,they have very few strokes.
Pak batting tactic is grinding out opposition bowlers and score against them when they are tired or waiting for the spinners/part timers,this will work on uae where you play around 150+overs a inning but you are rarely going to play this much overs on bowling friendly pitches,so you need batters who can put bad ball away especially against pacers in pak's case.
They tried the same approach in the first match 1st inning playing de grandhomme as the weak link and blocking the others,in the second innings they decides to grind out all the bowlers(cause de grandhomme wasn't the weak link anymore there was none/astle wasn't bowling much ) and waiting them to be tired to start scoring but on a seaming pitches you will rarely be able to do that.
Azhar played well even if he was on the slower side(he could have up the tempo when set but this wouldn't be azharesque) but the middle order is a liability against pacers.

In Lords it was like that.

But I remember ball doing something for longer time in Birmingham and Oval. 2nd test I didn't watch but Pakistan could have lost it due to scoreboard pressure itself regardless of pitch.

Of course, conditions will be easier to bat late summer but there was a bit in the pitch which needed disciplined batting to score.

I get your larger point about Pak batsmen not taking initiative to score against pacers by putting them under pressure which can be an issue in Southern Hemisphere. That was a topic of discussion here before the English tour.

 

[Jan Sher]

They are just not good enough, barring Younus Khan.

 

[Hawkeye]

If they were so bad, they wouldn't have drawn a series in England.

Its a frigging huge achievement which shouldn't be forgotten so soon. If India would have drawn a 4 match series in England, many Indian fans would have been jumping in joy.

The problem with Pakistan batsmen is that they are not good when it swings/seams/bounces/spins BIG.

They are really good when the swing/seam/bounce/spin is LITTLE.

Anyways, let's wait for the Aus tour and then judge.

Haha mann you give too much credit to us. It's not like that.

We mostly falter even when there's little movement for long periods.

 

[Napa]

As I said, its basic common sense to assume that Indians would have been glad with a 2-2 win in England after the woeful show in 2011 and 2014.

I am sure I would have praised Pak batting, called it even better than India...but since you were claiming that I said something and reality was different, I asked you what context I made the comments, so I could respond.

In cricket, we judge based on how things move uptil that point plus take into how things are shaping. Result wise, there was a point when Pak batting was clearly producing results (and after Eng series it was very clear) but I also remember talking about how Indian batting was shaping up for future...hence I asked.

English is a wonderful language with lots of synonyms, but being "glad" and "jumping for joy" are somewhat different things.

Since India became the #1 ranked team you have made dozens of posts saying things like Pakistan is ahead of India in Tests, India is not a true #1, yada yada yada. I don't really have to dig through old posts to prove that.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

English is a wonderful language with lots of synonyms, but being "glad" and "jumping for joy" are somewhat different things.

Since India became the #1 ranked team you have made dozens of posts saying things like Pakistan is ahead of India in Tests, India is not a true #1, yada yada yada. I don't really have to dig through old posts to prove that.

Yes glad and jumping for joy are so different things in this situation. I never knew.

And I never knew it is unreasonable to assume that Indians would be very happy with a 2-2 draw in England.

Since India became the #1 ranked team you have made dozens of posts saying things like Pakistan is ahead of India in Tests, India is not a true #1, yada yada yada. I don't really have to dig through old posts to prove that.

I said for a small brief moment of time, with Pakistan drawing the series in England and being unbeaten in UAE, they can be called number 1 for that moment and if they do fail in NZ and Aus (with emphasis on winning in NZ), they will not be considered that.

There is a lot of thought process that goes into my posts and one needs a stronger grasp of subtleties to understand what I am saying.

If someone asks for an explanation for a genuine discussion, I would give that but sadly I never get that impression from our discussions.

So my personal suggestion would be to ask you to stop quoting me from hereon and wasting both your and my time. Our views will never match fully and a genuine discussion doesn't seem likely either. Good day to you.

 

[Mamoon]

What real reason? They are not good enough that's why.

We have always been a joke batting nation. Our best ever batsmen are not fit to polish shoes of the best batsmen of other countries.