The return of Jesus

[TahirFan]

Muslims and Christians are eagerly waiting for the return of Jesus or Mahdi.

Lets suppose Jesus (Mahdi) returns to earth and he is born as a Koi Koi tribalman in Namibia. Would you accept him as Mahdi or will you only accept him if he is born in the Middle East .

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=136193]Adil_94[/MENTION]

 

[shaz619]

I will only accept him if he's a brummie [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] [MENTION=865]Big Mac[/MENTION]

 

[Mian]

Muslims and Christians are eagerly waiting for the return of Jesus or Mahdi.

Lets suppose Jesus (Mahdi) returns to earth and he is born as a Koi Koi tribalman in Namibia. Would you accept him as Mahdi or will you only accept him if he is born in the Middle East .

Coming of Imam Mehdi and Jesus return are 2 different events and they are 2 different persons although both events will happen around same time and both will fight together against anti christ.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Muslims and Christians are eagerly waiting for the return of Jesus or Mahdi.

Lets suppose Jesus (Mahdi) returns to earth and he is born as a Koi Koi tribalman in Namibia. Would you accept him as Mahdi or will you only accept him if he is born in the Middle East .

first of all, they are 2 different person,
secondly, tell me, do you believe on the Imam Mahdi and the return of the Jesus.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

They are different people

 

[ExpressPacer]

The Mehdi and the Messiah are two different people.

 

[IMMY69]

I will only accept him if he's a brummie [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] [MENTION=865]Big Mac[/MENTION]

They'll be Tory supporters...

 

[TahirFan]

Ok . Mahdi and Jesus are 2 different people.

So my question is will you accept either of them if they return as Koi Koi tribesman from Namibia

 

[Lonewarrior]

Ok . Mahdi and Jesus are 2 different people.

So my question is will you accept either of them if they return as Koi Koi tribesman from Namibia

This thread and your question, doesnt make any sense if you are Muslim ....

 

[TahirFan]

This thread and your question, doesnt make any sense if you are Muslim ....

The main aim of this thread is to determine if Muslims or Christians will accept Christ or Mahdi if they return as humble tribesman from Africa

 

[Lonewarrior]

The main aim of this thread is to determine if Muslims or Christians will accept Christ or Mahdi if they return as humble tribesman from Africa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam#Second_coming

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi#Sunni_Islam

I cant say behalf of christians, but as a Muslim, almost everyone knows about the returning of jesus, thats why i asked you that if you are a muslim thn you shouldnt have this kind of question in ur mind in first place ....

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Ok . Mahdi and Jesus are 2 different people.

So my question is will you accept either of them if they return as Koi Koi tribesman from Namibia

Your belief is driven by Posts of people on a Cricket forum ? That's what is called a Belief System ?


The 2 most Authentic books of Islam after Holy Quran are Sahi Bukhari & Sahi Muslim. (I know for Shia Muslims no book of Saha e Satta holds authenticity)


Sahi Muslim & Sahi Bukhari mention Messiah of Ummah to be the Imam (Leader) of time. In the History of Religions there has never been a time when there have been 2 Holy appointed Imam's Leaders running religious business at the same time. There has only been 1 Imam (Leader) at a time.


Wherever Holy Quran refers to a divinely appointed Leader its only for a Prophet. Allah has mentioned various Prophets as Imam of the time. Just 1 example from those many is Prophet Abraham AS.


Mahdi and Messiah are two namea given to one indivisual. Two Imam's cannot run religious matters side by side and Sahi Bukhari and Sahi Muslim refer Messiah as the Imam/Leader.


Majority of the narrations about Imam Mehdi AS are from other less authentic Ahadees books of Saha e Satta but many Islamic Scholars as well as Reformers within Islam have written that this very Mahdi AS is going to be the same Messiah.


He Pbuh stated :

عن أبي هريرة عن النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم قال : يوشك من عاش منكم ان يلقى عيسى بن مريم إماما مهديا وحكما عدلا فيكسر الصليب ويقتل الخنزير ويضع الجزية وتضع الحرب أوزارها

“It is near that one who lives from amongst you shall meet ‘Eisa bin Maryam. He will be the Imam Mahdi, a leader and a just ruler..”(Musnad Ahmad #9117)



Now as far as Messiah of Ummah is concerned than Sahi Bukhari and Sahi Muslim mention the physical attributes of both Messiah Son of Mary AS aswell as Messiah of Ummah of Mohammad Pbuh.


Jesus Christ AS was tall, broad, had pinkish white complexion and had curly hair as per Sahi Bukhari. While the Messiah of later age as per Sahi Bukhari will be short in statuture, weaker physique, straight hair & wheatish complexion as per Sahi Bukhari.


1 personality cannot have two entirely different physical makeup.


Those who await a Dead Prophet whom Quran prescribes as Dead are deleting Ahadith from Online Sources to testify their beliefs that an Old Dead Prophet will re-appear.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I will only accept him if he's a brummie [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] [MENTION=865]Big Mac[/MENTION]

The brummie accent will certainly put fear into the Dajjal.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Muslims and Christians are eagerly waiting for the return of Jesus or Mahdi.

Lets suppose Jesus (Mahdi) returns to earth and he is born as a Koi Koi tribalman in Namibia. Would you accept him as Mahdi or will you only accept him if he is born in the Middle East .

Dude, the Prophet Isa(pbuh) has already been born. He was born in Palestine to a Jewish family. He wasn't born to any tribe in Africa or wasn't blue eyed with blonde hair as you see in some churches.

Unfortuntaley most of us won't be around to see him return from the heavens, as he will return to defeat the Dajjal (false Messiah) and this will only be after the great Malhama(great war) which most believe would be a nuclear world war. After the unimaginable descturtion to the planet, Imam Mahdi will lead an army from Khorsan to the holy land where Isa(pbuh) will join him.

I don't think it's too far away personally, a lot of the minor signs have been fulfilled. Tbh the quicker the better , this planet and humanity has become a joke.

 

[Rayyman]

Dude, the Prophet Isa(pbuh) has already been born. He was born in Palestine to a Jewish family. He wasn't born to any tribe in Africa or wasn't blue eyed with blonde hair as you see in some churches.

Unfortuntaley most of us won't be around to see him return from the heavens, as he will return to defeat the Dajjal (false Messiah) and this will only be after the great Malhama(great war) which most believe would be a nuclear world war. After the unimaginable descturtion to the planet, Imam Mahdi will lead an army from Khorsan to the holy land where Isa(pbuh) will join him.

I don't think it's too far away personally, a lot of the minor signs have been fulfilled. Tbh the quicker the better , this planet and humanity has become a joke.

Insha'Allah I will be watching these events on a giant HD TV in Jannah.

 

[Adil_94]

Mahdi is in Sunni tradition an Arab descendant of the Prophet who will emerge from the ancient land of Khorasan to fight the cyclops Dajjal along with Jesus.

in Twelver Shia tradition he was already born and is the 12th and final.Imam and the son of their 11th Imam who was taken into hiding by God and he will appear in the end days and will launch rule the world under his Imamate. Not sure if the Shia story includes the Dajjal or not.

They are interesting stories but for me they are just that stories.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

 

[KingKhanWC]

Insha'Allah I will be watching these events on a giant HD TV in Jannah.

Bro you're young. This could be around the corner, who knows you may be blessed to be in his army. Most scholars feel it won't be more than 100-200 people.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

 

[Lonewarrior]

He Pbuh stated :

عن أبي هريرة عن النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم قال : يوشك من عاش منكم ان يلقى عيسى بن مريم إماما مهديا وحكما عدلا فيكسر الصليب ويقتل الخنزير ويضع الجزية وتضع الحرب أوزارها

“It is near that one who lives from amongst you shall meet ‘Eisa bin Maryam. He will be the Imam Mahdi, a leader and a just ruler..”(Musnad Ahmad #9117)



give me the original link of this quote.

 

[Lonewarrior]

and whats this ?

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

— Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157-158

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 43: Kitab-ul-`Ilm (Book of Knowledge), Hâdith Number 656:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts)."

— Narrated by Abu Huraira

 

[KingKhanWC]

@TalentSpotter Im sorry but what you are posting are fringe views. A good analogy would be the BNP's political views in the UK minus the hate.

 

[Mamoon]

Jesus is not coming back, and neither did he ascend to Heaven alive. In addition, the Mahdi vs Dajjal rivalry/war is all metaphorical; they are NOT two individuals. However, we believe what we believe and the majority of the people are convinced that Jesus will come back and so Mahdi and Dajjal will show up as well. They will wait and wait and wait until the world is no more.

It is nothing but a consequence of misinterpretations passed down from generation to generation, and gullible people digesting everything that is thrown their without putting their own intelligence to task.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Jesus is not coming back, and neither did he ascend to Heaven alive. In addition, the Mahdi vs Dajjal rivalry/war is all metaphorical; they are NOT two individuals. However, we believe what we believe and the majority of the people are convinced that Jesus will come back and so Mahdi and Dajjal will show up as well. They will wait and wait and wait until the world is no more.

It is nothing but a consequence of misinterpretations passed down from generation to generation, and gullible people digesting everything that is thrown their without putting their own intelligence to task.

Now why did you have to do that...

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Jesus is not coming back, and neither did he ascend to Heaven alive. In addition, the Mahdi vs Dajjal rivalry/war is all metaphorical; they are NOT two individuals. However, we believe what we believe and the majority of the people are convinced that Jesus will come back and so Mahdi and Dajjal will show up as well. They will wait and wait and wait until the world is no more.

It is nothing but a consequence of misinterpretations passed down from generation to generation, and gullible people digesting everything that is thrown their without putting their own intelligence to task.

Sahi Hadith :

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (Mariam) (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts)."

Quran :

And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. 43:61

But yeah you're much smarter than us and we are so gullible for not reading deep enough into these words like you did and realizing that they are a metaphor right?

 

[Mamoon]

Sahi Hadith :

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (Mariam) (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts)."

Quran :

And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. 43:61

But yeah you're much smarter than us and we are so gullible for not reading deep enough into these words like you did and realizing that they are a metaphor right?

As I said, people believe in what they want to believe. Keep waiting for the return of Jesus, a savior called Mahdi and a one-eyed antagonist called Dajjal. I hope all of this happens in your lifetime.

 

[KingKhanWC]

As I said, people believe in what they want to believe. Keep waiting for the return of Jesus, a savior called Mahdi and a one-eyed antagonist called Dajjal. I hope all of this happens in your lifetime.

No the majority of traditional scholars for the last 1400+ years believe this. We know you make up your own views with little knowledge and claim them to be correct. Please state these are you personal opinions and not mainstream Islam. People will take you more seriously.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

As I said, people believe in what they want to believe. Keep waiting for the return of Jesus, a savior called Mahdi and a one-eyed antagonist called Dajjal. I hope all of this happens in your lifetime.

So explain to me what this Hadith really means then? I wanna know what you think since you are obviously ahead of the curve. I've studied a hell of a lot of English literature and I just don't see how these words can be interpreted in any other way.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Jesus is not coming back, and neither did he ascend to Heaven alive. In addition, the Mahdi vs Dajjal rivalry/war is all metaphorical; they are NOT two individuals. However, we believe what we believe and the majority of the people are convinced that Jesus will come back and so Mahdi and Dajjal will show up as well. They will wait and wait and wait until the world is no more.

It is nothing but a consequence of misinterpretations passed down from generation to generation, and gullible people digesting everything that is thrown their without putting their own intelligence to task.

excuse me, this is what in the Quran:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- — Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157-158

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=139150]aliasad1998[/MENTION] clearly whoever compiled the hadith didnt realise that jizya would already be abolished before the Mahdi came.

No Muslim country makes its non Muslim citizens pay Jizya anymore even Saudi dont do that . The only organisation that still uses Jizya is ISIS.

Not to mention that Jesus will have to open the worlds largest abbatoir to get rid of all the millions of pigs in every corner of the globe.

Not to mention breaking the cross which is again something ISIS use in their propaganda.

If Jesus did ever come back sounds like he will be some dictator type figure.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] buddy it's absolutely okay to be an Islamic hipster but you calling us deluded and gullible is like Michael Bay criticizing Christopher Nolan. It's just wrong

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

http://www.alukah.net/sharia/0/48146/

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=139150]aliasad1998[/MENTION] clearly whoever compiled the hadith didnt realise that jizya would already be abolished before the Mahdi came.

No Muslim country makes its non Muslim citizens pay Jizya anymore even Saudi dont do that . The only organisation that still uses Jizya is ISIS.

Not to mention that Jesus will have to open the worlds largest abbatoir to get rid of all the millions of pigs in every corner of the globe.

Not to mention breaking the cross which is again something ISIS use in their propaganda.

If Jesus did ever come back sounds like he will be some dictator type figure.

You are not a Muslim. Please don't come here to troll and disrespect other peoples beliefs. You have no knowledge and have no interest in gaining any either.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] please dont tell me in which threads i can or cant post in. Last time i checked you arent the Sultan of PP. I havent swore or used abusive language.

Im not trolling im asking a genuine question how you can believe in a statement that seems problematic today. If u can provide me an answer for my query i'd be grateful.

I have enough knowledge thank you. Being a believer in a religion doesnt automatically make you an expert on the religion itself.

Asking questions of religion and its doctrines and dogma is not illegal where i live as much as some sensitive folk would want it to be.

 

[Arham_PakFan]

As I said, people believe in what they want to believe. Keep waiting for the return of Jesus, a savior called Mahdi and a one-eyed antagonist called Dajjal. I hope all of this happens in your lifetime.

No offence but I'm genuinely curious,what do you believe about this issue of Isa(AS) and Mehdi?

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] please dont tell me in which threads i can or cant post in. Last time i checked you arent the Sultan of PP. I havent swore or used abusive language.

Im not trolling im asking a genuine question how you can believe in a statement that seems problematic today. If u can provide me an answer for my query i'd be grateful.

I have enough knowledge thank you. Being a believer in a religion doesnt automatically make you an expert on the religion itself.

Asking questions of religion and its doctrines and dogma is not illegal where i live as much as some sensitive folk would want it to be.

You are embarrassing yourself. I'm trying to give you a way out.

Do you even bother to read what you wrote?

1. You wrote "Jesus will have to open the worlds largest abbatoir to get rid of all the millions of pigs in every corner of the globe.

Can you provide ANY evidence in Islam Muslim have to wipe out pigs from the planet? This is something a BNP uneducated member wouldn't even say. lol

2. "Not to mention breaking the cross"

Do you really believe this is literal, when Jesus(pbuh) returns we Muslims will go around the planet breaking anything which resembles a cross? lol

3. "If Jesus did ever come back sounds like he will be some dictator "

Now you are being deliberately offensive. He is a prophet of God and you claim he is like a dictator? I would add a lol at the end if it wasn't so lame.

You should find another hobby, because you are terrible at trolling religion esp Islam.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Jesus is not coming back, and neither did he ascend to Heaven alive. In addition, the Mahdi vs Dajjal rivalry/war is all metaphorical; they are NOT two individuals. However, we believe what we believe and the majority of the people are convinced that Jesus will come back and so Mahdi and Dajjal will show up as well. They will wait and wait and wait until the world is no more.

It is nothing but a consequence of misinterpretations passed down from generation to generation, and gullible people digesting everything that is thrown their without putting their own intelligence to task.

There is no surprise at all. Dead People do not return. Even Prophets. This is Law of Nature.


There are Multiple verses of Quran which pronounce Jesus As as Dead.


In One verses Allah says :

Ya Eesa Inni Mutaweeqa Wa Rafayokaa


First I will give you death than I will raise you.


This is exactly what happens with every Human being.


These Quranic Meaning Corruptions of Word " Tawaffi " and word " Rafa " are the reason to believe Jesus AS is alive.


These words are not just used for Jesus AS. They are used for other Human beings aswell as Prophets aswell.


So why do different translation of these words only in verses mentioning Jesus AS ?

 

[Mamoon]

No the majority of traditional scholars for the last 1400+ years believe this. We know you make up your own views with little knowledge and claim them to be correct. Please state these are you personal opinions and not mainstream Islam. People will take you more seriously.

Millions of people do not believe in religion and billions of people believe in religions that we deem incorrect as per Islamic beliefs. This includes scholars and scientists who have done their research on these things and subscribe to a certain ideology because they believe in that. Does that make them correct? I don't know, and so I have no reason to accept the common belief that Jesus will come back and so will Mahdi and Dajjal. I have thought enough on this topic to firmly believe in the contrary. I have already stated what the believe of the majority, i.e. the mainstream view is, in post #26. Next time, read a bit carefully.

However, more than the views of the majority, we need to understand that there are no facts in religion. Facts/logic and religion will always be contradictory. The foundation of religion itself is mystical upon which we build our faith. An angel from the sky brought the word of God to a man in a cave, and quite a few people around him trusted him and put their faith in his word. None of them saw the angel and none of them interacted with God directly, but they felt a connection which reinforced their belief, and that is what faith is.

Outside the Quran and the traditions of the Prophet (SAW), the biggest source of knowledge is fiqh, which is nothing but the opinion of the scholars. Now whether we always believe in the opinion of the people who have devoted more time to a field than us is a matter of debate, and something that is not applied consistently by anyone, and not just in religion. It is this difference of opinion which has lead to so many sects and division within Islam, even though Muhammad was one man and Quran was one book.

Of course, you are free to rubbish my opinion and my views because you do not consider me an authority on these matters and neither does your opinion converge with mine, just like I don't give a second thought to your views on Islam and global conflicts because of your massive soft corner for Jihadism and terrorism in the name of religion.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

@TalentSpotter Im sorry but what you are posting are fringe views. A good analogy would be the BNP's political views in the UK minus the hate.

I challenge you for the corrupt translations of Quranic verses.


If you translate words tawaffi, mutawaffi, mumeetoka, mutaweeqa, rafa & rafayaoka in the same way as done in holy quran for human beings and prophets other than Jesus Pbuh than Jesus AS is Dead as per Quran.


You cannot have selective different translations of same words for Jesus AS.


This is called Corruption.


Thanks to Allah that He as per his promise preserved Holy Quran in its original state. (Arabic)

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] buddy it's absolutely okay to be an Islamic hipster but you calling us deluded and gullible is like Michael Bay criticizing Christopher Nolan. It's just wrong

If you are taking it personally than it is not my problem, because my post was not directed at the particular audience on PP only, but everyone in general. Most people simply do not bother to do their own research and simply parrot what the next person is saying, even though the Quran and the religion is for everyone. The reason why we are what we are is because being an 'Islamic hipster' is considered a taboo, and that is why someone like Ghamidi had to flee the country because people were thirsty for his blood.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Millions of people do not believe in religion and billions of people believe in religions that we deem incorrect as per Islamic beliefs. This includes scholars and scientists who have done their research on these things and subscribe to a certain ideology because they believe in that. Does that make them correct? I don't know, and so I have no reason to accept the common belief that Jesus will come back and so will Mahdi and Dajjal. I have thought enough on this topic to firmly believe in the contrary. I have already stated what the believe of the majority, i.e. the mainstream view is, in post #26. Next time, read a bit carefully.

However, more than the views of the majority, we need to understand that there are no facts in religion. Facts/logic and religion will always be contradictory. The foundation of religion itself is mystical upon which we build our faith. An angel from the sky brought the word of God to a man in a cave, and quite a few people around him trusted him and put their faith in his word. None of them saw the angel and none of them interacted with God directly, but they felt a connection which reinforced their belief, and that is what faith is.

Outside the Quran and the traditions of the Prophet (SAW), the biggest source of knowledge is fiqh, which is nothing but the opinion of the scholars. Now whether we always believe in the opinion of the people who have devoted more time to a field than us is a matter of debate, and something that is not applied consistently by anyone, and not just in religion. It is this difference of opinion which has lead to so many sects and division within Islam, even though Muhammad was one man and Quran was one book.

Of course, you are free to rubbish my opinion and my views because you do not consider me an authority on these matters and neither does your opinion converge with mine, just like I don't give a second thought to your views on Islam and global conflicts because of your massive soft corner for Jihadism and terrorism in the name of religion.

I follow and post the consensus of the majority of scholars throughout the ages of Islam, you don't . It doesn't matter what our personal views are, they mean nothing compared to hundreds of years of study by the most learned people who spent their whole lives in this field. They all agree. Of course you can have your own weird views because you think you are smarter than them. lol.

But my only point is you don't agree with mainstream Islamic view. You can't argue against this and this is what im pointing out.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION]

You are wasting your time by making sense here. Never forget the audience you are addressing, which was my mistake and I ended up offending some folks. For the same reason, I have stopped discussing/arguing religion in general.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I challenge you for the corrupt translations of Quranic verses.


If you translate words tawaffi, mutawaffi, mumeetoka, mutaweeqa, rafa & rafayaoka in the same way as done in holy quran for human beings and prophets other than Jesus Pbuh than Jesus AS is Dead as per Quran.


You cannot have selective different translations of same words for Jesus AS.


This is called Corruption.


Thanks to Allah that He as per his promise preserved Holy Quran in its original state. (Arabic)

Before I think of taking up your challenge.

Can you confirm you what sect you believe in? What are you core beliefs? Do you reject hadith? etc

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

and whats this ?

This is nothing but corrupt translation.


If a person does not die on cross, does not get murdered even than He can live a natural life and die naturally.


If a person doesn't die on Cross, doesn't get murdered than it doesn't mean He cannot live on plannet earth snd has to be lifted to heaven.


Rafa does not mean lifting a human body alive or dead to heaven. And this is foolish to say that a body can be raised towards Allah. Allah is not a physical entity. He is everywhere. He is even closer to our Aorta as per HIS own words. So than in which direction a body got raised ?


Furthermore in other verse Allah says first I will give you death than I will raise you. After death every soul is raised towards Allah but Soul is not a physical entity.

So first death than raised." Ya Eesa Inni Mutaweeqa Wa Rafayoka "

 

[Mamoon]

I follow and post the consensus of the majority of scholars throughout the ages of Islam, you don't . It doesn't matter what our personal views are, they mean nothing compared to hundreds of years of study by the most learned people who spent their whole lives in this field. They all agree. Of course you can have your own weird views because you think you are smarter than them. lol.

But my only point is you don't agree with mainstream Islamic view. You can't argue against this and this is what im pointing out.

Like I said, this concept of digesting everything that is passed down to us by those whom we perceive as esteemed in a particular field is not applied consistently by anyone in any field. For example, you and millions of other Muslims reject the concept of evolution even though your knowledge of science is primitive compared to theirs. Similarly, I myself believe in most things that have been passed down to us even if they don't make sense to me, so this conflict is always there.

 

[Mamoon]

No offence but I'm genuinely curious,what do you believe about this issue of Isa(AS) and Mehdi?

Don't worry, I never get offended. I am open to criticism and devaluation of my opinion. I will get back to you in an hour, need to attend to some important work.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] read aliasads post before u embarass yourself as usual he is quoting a hadith to mamoon on what will happen when Jesus will come back. Please read the hadith before u attack me.

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/34/169. heres the hadith hes talking about.

here is the link in that hadith it says when Jesus comes back he will abolish the jizya break the cross and kill the pigs.

when am i saying that Islam encourages Muslims to go out killing pigs. I didnt say that at all. Please learn how to read. The hadith says that Jesus will do that and as the tradition is that Jesus and the Mahdi will establish worldwide islamic rule im guessing that means all the pigs in the world will be killed.

Breaking the cross in traditional scholarship means that churches will be destroyed as when Jesus arrives he will confirm the Islamic narrative that he was a Prophet and not Gods Son like Christianity claims and thus Christianity will be proved as falsehood and all the Churches will be destroyed. Tell me how else would u intepret it.

The jizya question again is a pertinent one. No Muslim country still imposes jizya on non Muslims. None have for over 50 + years not even Saudis. Only ISIS have tried to reinstate Jizya.

So how will Jesus abolish Jizya when it doesnt exist anymore unless some ISIS style organisation comes again and reinstates Jizya across the Muslim World.

the hadith also says that no poverty will remain at all when Jesus comes.

The whole concept of this golden age when Jesus and the Mahdi will reign over all of humanity which is currently 7 billion now and rising is a utopian ideal that would require all of humanity to either think the same way almost as robots or to get rid of people who dont share those ideals.

Read full conservations first before attacking people baselessly.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Like I said, this concept of digesting everything that is passed down to us by those whom we perceive as esteemed in a particular field is not applied consistently by anyone in any field. For example, you and millions of other Muslims reject the concept of evolution even though your knowledge of science is primitive compared to theirs. Similarly, I myself believe in most things that have been passed down to us even if they don't make sense to me, so this conflict is always there.

A great example of my point. I dont reject evolution, find a single post where I have stated this. Muslim scholars also have discussed evolution hundreds of years before Darwin. Making up Bollywood type stories is classic for you. Again these are your views not what hundreds of years of Islam have concluded.

 

[Arham_PakFan]

Don't worry, I never get offended. I am open to criticism and devaluation of my opinion. I will get back to you in an hour, need to attend to some important work.

Sure no problem.

 

[Greenstorm]

[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION]

You are wasting your time by making sense here. Never forget the audience you are addressing, which was my mistake and I ended up offending some folks. For the same reason, I have stopped discussing/arguing religion in general.

Nah, he is not wasting his time. His posts are very informative. I up til now believed that Jesus will arrive again as this a general belief among majority of Muslims but now I guess I have to do some research on this topic.

 

[KingKhanWC]

read aliasads post before u embarass yourself as usual he is quoting a hadith to mamoon on what will happen when Jesus will come back. Please read the hadith before u attack me.

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/34/169. heres the hadith hes talking about.

here is the link in that hadith it says when Jesus comes back he will abolish the jizya break the cross and kill the pigs.

when am i saying that Islam encourages Muslims to go out killing pigs. I didnt say that at all. Please learn how to read.

[\QUOTE]

You wrote

"You wrote "Jesus will have to open the worlds largest abbatoir to get rid of all the millions of pigs in every corner of the globe. -


Either you're backtracking from the rubbish above or were simply trolling with weak insults or have an intellectual deficiency with understanding the texts. Which is it?

The hadith says that Jesus will do that and as the tradition is that Jesus and the Mahdi will establish worldwide islamic rule im guessing that means all the pigs in the world will be killed.

lol. God created Pigs and they wont be hunted down. It's a metaphor for ending all false religions esp Christianity which believes Jesus(pbuh) is God/Son of God. Are you really this silly?

Breaking the cross in traditional scholarship means that churches will be destroyed as when Jesus arrives he will confirm the Islamic narrative that he was a Prophet and not Gods Son like Christianity claims and thus Christianity will be proved as falsehood and all the Churches will be destroyed. Tell me how else would u intepret it.

lol. Again see above response. This is embarrassing.

The jizya question again is a pertinent one. No Muslim country still imposes jizya on non Muslims. None have for over 50 + years not even Saudis. Only ISIS have tried to reinstate Jizya.

So how will Jesus abolish Jizya when it doesnt exist anymore unless some ISIS style organisation comes again and reinstates Jizya across the Muslim World.

the hadith also says that no poverty will remain at all when Jesus comes.

The whole concept of this golden age when Jesus and the Mahdi will reign over all of humanity which is currently 7 billion now and rising is a utopian ideal that would require all of humanity to either think the same way almost as robots or to get rid of people who dont share those ideals.

Read full conservations first before attacking people baselessly.

There is no Islamic state at present and hasn't been for a long time. A Muslim country doesn't mean anything. When IF is again, the Jizya will be back in play but not in the time Jesus(pbuh) as obviously once he is around, humanity will accept him and there will be no false religions.

No you try reading your own poor attempts of understanding something which is common sense. I can't debate with you . You can have the last say and someone else can read it.

 

[Mamoon]

A great example of my point. I dont reject evolution, find a single post where I have stated this. Muslim scholars also have discussed evolution hundreds of years before Darwin. Making up Bollywood type stories is classic for you. Again these are your views not what hundreds of years of Islam have concluded.

By evolution, I meant Darwinism. Of course, evolution itself is a fact but Darwinism is merely a theory, but it is a theory that is widely accepted by esteemed scientists but you still find yourself rejecting their views. You are obviously smart enough to understand the point I was trying to make, but perhaps you are keen to prolong the discussion.

The era of Muslim scientists is long gone. It is true that we made great discoveries in science before the Renaissance, but there has been nothing of note since. Most of the modern day Mullahs, preachers and scholars talk rubbish when it comes to science.

 

[Mamoon]

Nah, he is not wasting his time. His posts are very informative. I up til now believed that Jesus will arrive again as this a general belief among majority of Muslims but now I guess I have to do some research on this topic.

You are 1 in 100, and I am very impressed with your open-mindedness. Instead of rejecting everything that is contrary to what has been passed down to you, you have the desire to do your own research. That is the type of attitude that Muslims need to have.

Unfortunately, it is simply not possible to have a discussion on religious matters with most Muslims of today. They do not have the capacity to think about these things from a different perspective.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION]

You are wasting your time by making sense here. Never forget the audience you are addressing, which was my mistake and I ended up offending some folks. For the same reason, I have stopped discussing/arguing religion in general.

Mamoon remember it takes centuries for the water to make hole in stone.


This " Hayaat e Maseeh " concept is not 1500 years old. This is creation of last 400 years only. The Christians used to taunt Muslims that look Our Prophet is Son of God and He was lifted to Heaven and will have two terms while your Prophet has one term and look he is burried in a grave. At this adulteration of Quranic translations took place. Since Ahadees mentioned symbolic Jesus Son of Mary AS so a middle ground was created and than both Got united in awaiting Jesus AS.


The thing is that many promiment Ehl e Sunnat Scholars, Saints & reformers of 300-400 years ago believed in Physical death of Jesus Pbuh as Quran categorically mentions. There writings are still in tact.


For Last 120 odd years there was one voice only. Than it all begun with Khalid Zaheer, Javed Ahmed Ghamdi, Mohammad Sheikh and another Arab scholar whose name I am forgetting. So it will take time. Haf there been no social media, youtube, internet than it wouldn't have been possible because MullahCracy does not allow you questioning but on Internet you are free to research, study and ponder.


Ghamdi sahib had to run from Pakistan to save his Life. You also cannot say all this when you are in your town else Mob justice will take over.


But still, May Allah bless you for daring even online. Fatwaaz shouldn't matter. Rationality should prevail.


You yourself say that you nearly became an Athiest. So what pulled you back ? Only Allah. Such a blessing He had for you is not what others taste. So Allah was with you and He guided you. So it is special treatment but Allah would have seen some previous traits of yours to bless you in this exam.


Lastly, when the Non Believers said to Prophet Pbuh that if you are True than ascend to heaven infront of our Eyes and Bring Quran from heaven than we will believe you. At this what was His Pbuh Answer ? The Answer which Allah told him Pbuh to convey. That was I am a Prophet but Human. So Jesus Pbuh was also a Prophet and Human. Same rules apply.

No Homo sapien can defy Gravity to fly towards Heaven on his own. Neither Alive nor Dead.


Or you have a house of gold or you ascend into the sky. And [even then], we will not believe in your ascension until you bring down to us a book we may read." Say, "Exalted is my Lord! Was I ever but a human messenger?" 17:93

 

[Rayyman]

Of course Prophet Isa (AS) will descend back to Earth from the Heavens. That's what I was taught and I think most Muslims believe in the same thing.

One thing I will not do is read random articles from unknown sources and start to believe in that. The internet is not the best source of information.

 

[Greenstorm]

You are 1 in 100, and I am very impressed with your open-mindedness. Instead of rejecting everything that is contrary to what has been passed down to you, you have the desire to do your own research. That is the type of attitude that Muslims need to have.

Unfortunately, it is simply not possible to have a discussion on religious matters with most Muslims of today. They do not have the capacity to think about these things from a different perspective.

We cannot blame them entirely for this. We form our beliefs on whatever we are told by our parents, teachers, mullahs and scholars and questioning them is considered as taboo. When you try to seek knowledge by reading books on religious matters specially in Urdu, most of them are biased and the narrative is inclined towards the sect of writer. So the younger generation is exposed to only one type of Islamic narrative but now with internet accessible to majority of youth, I see things changing a bit.

 

[Rayyman]

For me, my core beliefs in Islam will always remain the same. Like praying, fasting and common knowledge like Dajjal and Mahdi.

Now, as for my faith in general, it is strong because I want it to be.
Not because my parents forced me to try and be a good Muslim and what not. I try because I want to.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Of course Prophet Isa (AS) will descend back to Earth from the Heavens. That's what I was taught and I think most Muslims believe in the same thing.

One thing I will not do is read random articles from unknown sources and start to believe in that. The internet is not the best source of information.

If Quran says that Naoozbillah Jesus AS is alive and sits on heaven or sits with Allah anywhere than

When He will descend from Heaven back to Earth which he will never ever than than


Will you abrogate Quranic verses ?


Because as per You Quran says He is on heaven while He will be on Earth.


Himdus, Jews, Buddhists, Aethiests, Agnostics will mock you and say your Quran is lying or you are lying ? Quran says He is on heaven or with Allah anwhere and you are saying He is here on Earth. Naoozbillah Quran will be lying or you will be lying or Jesus Ad will be lying ?


Will you than edit Quran and delete those verses ?

 

[Rayyman]

Practicing Islam helps me in this life and it will in the next.

 

[Rayyman]

If Quran says that Naoozbillah Jesus AS is alive and sits on heaven or sits with Allah anywhere than

When He will descend from Heaven back to Earth which he will never ever than than


Will you abrogate Quranic verses ?


Because as per You Quran says He is on heaven while He will be on Earth.


Himdus, Jews, Buddhists, Aethiests, Agnostics will mock you and say your Quran is lying or you are lying ? Quran says He is on heaven or with Allah anwhere and you are saying He is here on Earth. Naoozbillah Quran will be lying or you will be lying or Jesus Ad will be lying ?


Will you than edit Quran and delete those verses ?

The bottom line is that we will never know for sure. Look I don't care who mocks me. My belief is strong. I've read and watched videos on this.
[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION], have you watched Shaykh Imran Husein? I don't agree with him and think he's a bit crazy, but what do you think?

 

[KingKhanWC]

The bottom line is that we will never know for sure. Look I don't care who mocks me. My belief is strong. I've read and watched videos on this.

[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION], have you watched Shaykh Imran Husein? I don't agree with him and think he's a bit crazy, but what do you think?

The poster says

"This " Hayaat e Maseeh " concept is not 1500 years old. This is creation of last 400 years only -"

Ask him this is true then why are there many authentic hadiths on this subject? I doubt his answer will be these hadiths are new too.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

The bottom line is that we will never know for sure. Look I don't care who mocks me. My belief is strong. I've read and watched videos on this.

[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION], have you watched Shaykh Imran Husein? I don't agree with him and think he's a bit crazy, but what do you think?

Brother stick to the topic and answer my questions.


Jesus As Son of Mary As is back on Earth will he delete verses of Holy Quran from which you infer that He is with Allah on Heaven or anywhere but not on Earth ? Will you delete those verses ?


Jesus will say I am Jesus As. I am back.


Quran will say No He is on heaven. Will you delete verses ?


Will you try to abrogate Quran ? Are you allowed ?

 

[Rayyman]

The poster says

"This " Hayaat e Maseeh " concept is not 1500 years old. This is creation of last 400 years only -"

Ask him this is true then why are there many authentic hadiths on this subject? I doubt his answer will be these hadiths are new too.

Exactly. These are Sahih Hadiths. Can't really deny them. Unless you are Mamoon and take them as metaphors.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

The poster says

"This " Hayaat e Maseeh " concept is not 1500 years old. This is creation of last 400 years only -"

Ask him this is true then why are there many authentic hadiths on this subject? I doubt his answer will be these hadiths are new too.

Don't jump to Ahadeea so Soon.


Come to Quran first. Quran discusses it first.

 

[Rayyman]

Brother stick to the topic and answer my questions.


Jesus As Son of Mary As is back on Earth will he delete verses of Holy Quran from which you infer that He is with Allah on Heaven or anywhere but not on Earth ? Will you delete those verses ?


Jesus will say I am Jesus As. I am back.


Quran will say No He is on heaven. Will you delete verses ?


Will you try to abrogate Quran ? Are you allowed ?

That's for Jesus and his people to deal with. Not us. Imho you are thinking too much.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

There is no surprise at all. Dead People do not return. Even Prophets. This is Law of Nature.


There are Multiple verses of Quran which pronounce Jesus As as Dead.


In One verses Allah says :

Ya Eesa Inni Mutaweeqa Wa Rafayokaa


First I will give you death than I will raise you.


This is exactly what happens with every Human being.


These Quranic Meaning Corruptions of Word " Tawaffi " and word " Rafa " are the reason to believe Jesus AS is alive.


These words are not just used for Jesus AS. They are used for other Human beings aswell as Prophets aswell.


So why do different translation of these words only in verses mentioning Jesus AS ?

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION]


Answer this Corruption.


Holy Quran is not subordinate to Ahadith. Ahadith are subordinate to Holy Quran. Allah promised to preserve Holy Quran. He did not promise to either create or preserve Ahadees.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Open Holy Quran and start :


Chapter and verse number references are given.


If you do similar corrupt adulterated translations at other places than many Prophets, Humans were Naoozbillah lifted alive to Heaven.


Naoozbillah min Zaalik.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

That's for Jesus and his people to deal with. Not us. Imho you are thinking too much.

So now You don't want to me amongst " his people " ?


ComeOn. Now you are acting as a Great American. I don't care about rest of the World to me only USA matters


Whenever you get answer of my queations from any of the Videos you watch do educate me than.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Holy Quran Chapter 3 Verse 144 :


AND MUHAMMAD is only an apostle; all the [other] apostles have passed away before him: if, then, he dies or is slain, will you turn about on your heels? But he that turns about on his heels can in no wise harm God - whereas God will requite all who are grateful [to Him]


Translator : Muhammad Asad



Was Jesus As a Messenger before Prophet Mohammed Pbuh ?

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] Adil is a muslim, he's an alright guy and just questions certain things when it can be hard to see on a practical level so I can see whee he's coming from although I hold the same views as you on the matter. Don't fight guys, only go after Indian posters and Tories

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] Adil is a muslim, he's an alright guy and just questions certain things

Bro im not judging but only going by his own words. He wrote in another thread he isn't. No doubt he is a good person, like everyone else but some of his logic in this thread has been awful. As if Jesus(pbuh) will come back and travel the world to kill all pigs.

 

[Rayyman]

So now You don't want to me amongst " his people " ?


ComeOn. Now you are acting as a Great American. I don't care about rest of the World to me only USA matters


Whenever you get answer of my queations from any of the Videos you watch do educate me than.

Look man, by this logic, Qur'an should've already been changed. Because certain Ayahs and parts were aimed towards Sahabah and don't apply to us now; But we didn't change it because we can use our brains and realize what applies to us and what doesn't.

 

[shaz619]

Bro im not judging but only going by his own words. He wrote in another thread he isn't. No doubt he is a good person, like everyone else but some of his logic in this thread has been awful. As if Jesus(pbuh) will come back and travel the world to kill all pigs.

Maybe not all pigs but just one pig to perform the ritual and fulfil the requirement of the prophecy? or perhaps it was like a metaphor which would lead to the ban of mans eating pork. And I still see him as a Muslim brother I say a lot of things which I don't mean as well at times, am a bit like Tyson Fury it depends on what side of the bed I wake up; like yesterday I had to bury all the anti-corbyn lobby with my shovel emphatically today I feel like being more humble and tolerant towards ignorance

 

[KingKhanWC]

Maybe not all pigs but just one pig to perform the ritual and fulfil the requirement of the prophecy? or perhaps it was like a metaphor which would lead to the ban of mans eating pork. And I still see him as a Muslim brother I say a lot of things which I don't mean as well at times, am a bit like Tyson Fury it depends on what side of the bed I wake up; like yesterday I had to bury all the anti-corbyn lobby with my shovel emphatically today I feel like being more humble and tolerant towards ignorance

We are mere mortals and all make mistakes out of frustration , anger or stress. I just find it amusing one of the greatest men of all time, having spent a couple of thousand years in heaven would come back to Earth and then spend a few months running around the planet taking out every pig like someone from the Amazon tribes. It's basically a metaphor to say on his return people will return to the truthful religion, no more eating of swine for humanity or praying to crosses.

 

[shaz619]

We are mere mortals and all make mistakes out of frustration , anger or stress. I just find it amusing one of the greatest men of all time, having spent a couple of thousand years in heaven would come back to Earth and then spend a few months running around the planet taking out every pig like someone from the Amazon tribes. It's basically a metaphor to say on his return people will return to the truthful religion, no more eating of swine for humanity or praying to crosses.

You're right, that's probably not productive. Jesus would need to bring about reform when it comes to our policy's and things like that. Anyhow is what you say based on your interpretation or that of a particular hadith or shaykh ? but don't you think that when Jesus does arrive maybe he should like consider killing one pig and breaking one cross to like send out a sought of bat signal to the world indicating his arrival and fulfilment of prophecies which would reinforce the one true religion? like just a one off, then he could look to work with communities to bring about change

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Look man, by this logic, Qur'an should've already been changed. Because certain Ayahs and parts were aimed towards Sahabah and don't apply to us now; But we didn't change it because we can use our brains and realize what applies to us and what doesn't.

First of all you are drifting and not answering.


I haven't asked any rocket science question.


Which Aaya are only for Sahaba RA ? Did Allah mention that those instructions are only for Sahaba RA ? He would have mentioned. Either way quote the verses.


Last time. If Jesus AS descends today from Heaven infront of your Eyes what will Quran be saying about Him AS ? Will there be contradiction in actuality and writing ?


Note : Quran is not just a book for past or present. If is a Holy book for Past, Present & Future.


All Prophets before He Pbuh have passed away (3:144) what will you do with this verse ?

 

[KingKhanWC]

You're right, that's probably not productive. Jesus would need to bring about reform when it comes to our policy's and things like that. Anyhow is what you say based on your interpretation or that of a particular hadith or shaykh ? but don't you think that when Jesus does arrive maybe he should like consider killing one pig and breaking one cross to like send out a sought of bat signal to the world indicating his arrival and fulfilment of prophecies which would reinforce the one true religion? like just a one off, then he could look to work with communities to bring about change

I dont like to mention such things but since you asked, many years ago I woke early in the morning. At that time I was praying 5 times a day as I was going through some tough times, when I looked at the window I saw condensation as you do but in the corner there was a detailed face. I turned the light on and looked closely and the the detail on this face was astonishing. At the time it looked like a man with a beard, long curly hair and big bold eyes. After finishing my prayer I looked back and it was gone, it kept in my mind for a very long time. I then randomly came across an article which suggested many people around the world have seen a face in various places. I then read about the return of Jesus(pbuh), I dont know if it was his face but it led me to research the subject via books and videos by various scholars. From what I've read there will be no need to do anything symbolic because he will enter a world which has just suffered the greatest war of wars, a nuclear war which has destroyed most of the planet. People will instantly recognise who he is , Muslims , Christians and anyone else . Once he kills the Dajjal, he and his army will retreat to the mountains, some say in Northern Africa while Gog and Magog run riot in the world, destroying most of the remaining planet. After this the world will see peace and flourish as one community and everything will be in abundance. I'm just a layman, so please do your own research but its interesting and imo not too far off.

 

[shaz619]

I dont like to mention such things but since you asked, many years ago I woke early in the morning. At that time I was praying 5 times a day as I was going through some tough times, when I looked at the window I saw condensation as you do but in the corner there was a detailed face. I turned the light on and looked closely and the the detail on this face was astonishing. At the time it looked like a man with a beard, long curly hair and big bold eyes. After finishing my prayer I looked back and it was gone, it kept in my mind for a very long time. I then randomly came across an article which suggested many people around the world have seen a face in various places. I then read about the return of Jesus(pbuh), I dont know if it was his face but it led me to research the subject via books and videos by various scholars. From what I've read there will be no need to do anything symbolic because he will enter a world which has just suffered the greatest war of wars, a nuclear war which has destroyed most of the planet. People will instantly recognise who he is , Muslims , Christians and anyone else . Once he kills the Dajjal, he and his army will retreat to the mountains, some say in Northern Africa while Gog and Magog run riot in the world, destroying most of the remaining planet. After this the world will see peace and flourish as one community and everything will be in abundance. I'm just a layman, so please do your own research but its interesting and imo not too far off.

Thanks kingkhan will look up on the subject it's really interesting reading about all of this, I use to be really into it and then life happened, became very disgruntled about things in general. But with religious side of things am reading up some history fiction on Saladin, it's accurate but dramatized a bit and I enjoy it; once I finish that will read about the end of times. Do you ever wonder if everything is just stories and what if we just die and rot? no life after death etc

 

[USHK]

Return of Jesus (PBUH) is imminent. He (PBUH) is the response to Dajjal aka Anti-Christ. The reason he (PBUH) will come back because he hasn't died yet. He has to die like others so naturally he will die at the End Times.

Remember, He (PBUH) was taken by GOD and imposer was made to appear which might be hard for people to believe despite the miracles mentioned greatly throughout the history of mankind, not to mention He (PBUH) was born without father's seed. Don't forget the journey to Jerusalem and the space on Al-Baraq that travels over the speed of light which Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) boarded. Call Al-Barak advanced creation or advanced technology.

Nothing is impossible for A CREATOR that created multiverses which is plural of universe.