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The young Indian batting talent may not be as good as it appears

gazza619

gazza619

Test Debutant
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Runs
13,145
I have been closely watching the IPL this year and have noticed that the wickets overall are just too good for the batsman. For example a Sunil Narine who is a tailender in international cricket is apparantely a Brian Lara in IPL. Or a Kane Williamson who when plays for NZ looks unsuited for T20 is hitting sixes in IPL as and when he pleases.

This tells me one thing. The young indian batting talent on show may not be as good as it appears on face value. Please please please, this is not an Anti -India thread and I still firmly believe that these young Indian guns are good (and most certainly better than Pakistan’s young batting talent) but their real test will be when they play on overseas pitches where 200 + scores are unachievable in T20 most of the times. It may be a different story.
 
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Indian batting relies on Kohli and Dhawan. None of the batsman who came from IPL has made his mark in international cricket for India.
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Indian batting relies on Kohli and Dhawan. None of the batsman who came from IPL has made his mark in international cricket for India.
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What has this to d with IPL?

None of that has come from Indian domestic cricket hasnt helped. Can you please be at least consistent?
 
BreadPakoda said:
The ones who have failed have come from IPL. The ones who have succeeded haven't. Simple.
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No one comes from the IPL. How many cricketers only play IPL? Every IPL cricketer plays either Ranji or international cricket. Even the LOI specialist play some Ranji cricket.
 
India have a history of producing quality batsmen. You would back them to come good.
 
Yeah, selectors also probably recognize that. For youngsters IPL runs are only for serving notice. Might get their names in mix for A-squad at best. Batsmen who've broken into nationals in last few years have cut their teeth on A-tours (Iyer, Pandey) and/or done astonishing domestic feats (Jadhav).

IPL performance as a direct national springboard is mostly only for discards/fringe batters whose quality is already proven at intl level. For these guys selectors look to see if their game has hit a new ceiling/reached old peaks. Case in point - Rahul/Rayudu/Raina
 
Sidilicious said:
What has this to d with IPL?

None of that has come from Indian domestic cricket hasnt helped. Can you please be at least consistent?
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Sorry if I offended you and other pyjama league fans. But fans like [MENTION=134505]rhony[/MENTION] have already claimed that currently whoever gets selected for the Indian team has to perform in IPL first and then they get selected for indian team. You can have a discussion with [MENTION=134505]rhony[/MENTION] now on why does he thinks like that. I will blame the IPL for not giving us talented batsman.
 
These guys are incredibly talented but players have to adapt to both mental and technical challenges at the higher level. As we saw in SA, some guys were like rabbits in the headlights.
 
That is definitely true to some extent. But then the pitches are same for everybody. So why do we have so many Indian batsmen topping the charts and scoring at a better strike rate.
 
There are some insane stats like for e.g. with Dhoni (averaging 86 @ SR 155) but in internationals his ODI stats tell a different story.

Also to much surprise Rohit Sharma is struggling in this year's IPL even though he's meant to be a beast in India. In contrast Lokesh Rahul has been brilliant and feel it only fair that he gets his chance to open with Dhawan, so we can see who really is the superior of the two.

Kohli and Dhawan have been excellent as usual.

Bowling wise very impressed with Bumrah with economy under 7. Showing once again why he is the best Indian LOI bowler in the country. Suprised by Kuldeep Yadav because it seems he's been tonked around since he's been going at 8.5 runs per over this tournament thus far.
 
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Abhilash93 said:
That is definitely true to some extent. But then the pitches are same for everybody. So why do we have so many Indian batsmen topping the charts and scoring at a better strike rate.
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Well there may be 2 reasons:
1. Indian batsmen playing on home soil
2. In numbers there are more Indian batsmen compared to International in the IPL. The proportion may 8:2.
 
Sidilicious said:
No one comes from the IPL. How many cricketers only play IPL? Every IPL cricketer plays either Ranji or international cricket. Even the LOI specialist play some Ranji cricket.
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Exactly. I am just highlighting the prevailing logic.
 
gazza619 said:
For example a Sunil Narine who is a tailender in international cricket is apparantely a Brian Lara in IPL. Or a Kane Williamson who when plays for NZ looks unsuited for T20 is hitting sixes in IPL as and when he pleases.
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Total runs scored:

Narine #20, Shakib #37, Maxwell #38, McCullum #46 (from 6 games only, but his avg still lower than Narine's).

https://www.iplt20.com/stats/2018/most-runs

You can't just pick Narine and arrive at conclusions.
 
Napa said:
Correction: Soon, most of the world will be only playing in IPL
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Isn't most of the world already playing IPL?

If this were to happen, Cricket will be limited to only Sub-Continent audience. And, If Pakistani players aren't allowed then it will only be limited to Indian audience.
 
I do agree. I also feel exposing young fast bowlers like Shivam Mavi to international cricketers at such a young age is a mistake. Poor lad has got thrashed around, what good will this do to his confidence?

Young guns like Shaw, Gill, Pant, Iyer, ... They are getting crores of ruppees at such a young age for playing T20 cricket, how will this impact their thinking towards longer formats?

The real impact of IPL will be seen from now onwards, 10-11 years since it has started, so far the players who played IPL were still from a generation that grew up watching test cricket and playing domestic 4 day games. This generation now, is the one who grew up watching IPL. We will see now how these youngsters progress.
 
IPL can at most get them into T20 side,to make ODI or test they need to do well in both IPL and FC ,for tests only FC record matters.
 
sam_ahm said:
Young guns like Shaw, Gill, Pant, Iyer, ... They are getting crores of ruppees at such a young age for playing T20 cricket, how will this impact their thinking towards longer formats?
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So T20s should be less lucrative for players to keep tests alive?
 
sam_ahm said:
I do agree. I also feel exposing young fast bowlers like Shivam Mavi to international cricketers at such a young age is a mistake. Poor lad has got thrashed around, what good will this do to his confidence?

Young guns like Shaw, Gill, Pant, Iyer, ... They are getting crores of ruppees at such a young age for playing T20 cricket, how will this impact their thinking towards longer formats?

The real impact of IPL will be seen from now onwards, 10-11 years since it has started, so far the players who played IPL were still from a generation that grew up watching test cricket and playing domestic 4 day games. This generation now, is the one who grew up watching IPL. We will see now how these youngsters progress.
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tbh, Kohli has been playing IPL since he was 19. His fat pay checks started coming as soon as he turned 19.
 
Sachin136 said:
So T20s should be less lucrative for players to keep tests alive?
Click to expand...

Sidilicious said:
tbh, Kohli has been playing IPL since he was 19. His fat pay checks started coming as soon as he turned 19.
Click to expand...

Look guys I might be wrong but what I mean is that youngsters may not be as passionate to play cricket for Team India as Sachin Rahul, Kumble, MS, etc... were, these players gave their body and soul for Indian cricket. For youngsters now, a good stint in the IPL might suffice. Their main target might be to get a good deal in the IPL.

I'm NOT saying IPL should be less lucrative, but youngsters should spend atleast 3-4 good seasons at Domestic level to be rewarded with a good IPL contract. Rewarding them with crores for some U19 performance without even a proper domestic season behind them can be dangerous.
 
sam_ahm said:
Look guys I might be wrong but what I mean is that youngsters may not be as passionate to play cricket for Team India as Sachin Rahul, Kumble, MS, etc... were, these players gave their body and soul for Indian cricket. For youngsters now, a good stint in the IPL might suffice. Their main target might be to get a good deal in the IPL.

I'm NOT saying IPL should be less lucrative, but youngsters should spend atleast 3-4 good seasons at Domestic level to be rewarded with a good IPL contract. Rewarding them with crores for some U19 performance without even a proper domestic season behind them can be dangerous.
Click to expand...

Dravid said the exact same thing in a video that a PP'er posted a few months ago. Basically if kids get alot of money too soon before they really earned it then chances are they will turn into Justin Biebers. :uakmal
 
sam_ahm said:
Look guys I might be wrong but what I mean is that youngsters may not be as passionate to play cricket for Team India as Sachin Rahul, Kumble, MS, etc... were, these players gave their body and soul for Indian cricket. For youngsters now, a good stint in the IPL might suffice. Their main target might be to get a good deal in the IPL.

I'm NOT saying IPL should be less lucrative, but youngsters should spend atleast 3-4 good seasons at Domestic level to be rewarded with a good IPL contract. Rewarding them with crores for some U19 performance without even a proper domestic season behind them can be dangerous.
Click to expand...

You have good point. Don't think I knew what to do with money at that age. Some will fall to the dark side and will waste their potential. But incredible financial security to dozens of domestic cricketers is not inherently bad thing. Before IPL those who never made it to international stage were practically earning nothing. Players with character will endure the temptations and will fulfill their potential whatever it may be.
 
These colts are ready to take on the world- mentally. Just need to fine tune their techniques...my $0.02
 
They’re performing better than some of the senior batsmen who play international cricket. Most of the guys are very young and need at least 2-3 years more to develop completely as batsmen.

I’m not predicting that all these batsmen will be good enough to play for India but I just don’t see any reason to say “they may not be that good”.

Btw, Sunil Narine is not a tailender. A tailender cannot connect that well that often. He bats during the first 6 overs and is given the license to attack. He just slashes hard at anything within his reach. And he’s 20th in the list of run scorers. That’s no Lara.
 
India doesn't have to care what other country men do there. They just have to identify players who are better than the regular now. Right now so many are better than Rahane and Pandey. They will be playing for them. India can now cover their weakness. REmember how India went with washed out Ashwin and Jaddu and realized they were not working. Chahal and Kuldeep took over. India owned SA in SA for he first ime. That too thrashed them. India has tremendous bench strength.
 
India once had top quality batsmen in their ODI and Test line up. The IPL just like other T20 leagues dont produce quailty but those who can hit the ball hard with little to no technique. It will help them in shorter formats but in the real format, test cricket India will struggle as they did in SA.
 
KingKhanWC said:
India once had top quality batsmen in their ODI and Test line up. The IPL just like other T20 leagues dont produce quailty but those who can hit the ball hard with little to no technique. It will help them in shorter formats but in the real format, test cricket India will struggle as they did in SA.
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Seriously?
 
IND had a golden decade from 2007 til 2017.

I believe that the CT Final was the turning point and we will see a new champion side emerge in the ensuing decade.
 
I think people are reading too much into IPL. All these players performing in the IPL aren't the product of IPL. They are the product of the system and have risen through grade cricket. All these players you are talking about have good FC records as well. The Indian test team is not picked based on the IPL performances. The ODI team as well isn't picked on IPL performances. The selectors mostly base their selection on the domestic stats and on A tour. I think Yousuf Pathan experiment after the stellar 2008 season with RR caused the change in perception. The players who did well in the IPL are on an A tour to England and are not with the Indian national side. So that tells how much IPL plays in to the selections. If IPL was the bench mark then Paul Valthathy, Pravin Tambe etc would have made the National side but they did not.
 
Let us look at the India A squad for FC games vs Eng Lions - Karun Nair is captain, R Samarth, Abhimanyu Eshwaran, Hanuma Vihari and KS Bharat are four batsmen alongside Prithvi Shaw, Mayank Agrawal and Vijay Shankar. How many of these are IPL stars?

That should tell you the thinking process of Indian selectors.
 
KingKhanWC said:
India once had top quality batsmen in their ODI and Test line up. The IPL just like other T20 leagues dont produce quailty but those who can hit the ball hard with little to no technique. It will help them in shorter formats but in the real format, test cricket India will struggle as they did in SA.
Click to expand...

Do you see PUjara playing in IPL. He was not even sold. Same Vijay was benched entire season except one match. KL Rahul is already a proven Test match player. India has different set up for Tests. Besides Indian batting talent doesn't even need any experience. Tendulkar didn't have much of a first class experience. Sehwag didn't have much. Him becoming opening batsman was purely an accident. Yuvraj/Raina/Kaif never made it big in Tests despite being good in the one dayers. They didn't play for long. Wait and watch Shubhman Gill , SHaw will sizzle in the next 5 years. Indians lack technique? That is a joke. India struggled in SA? lol What did Sa do? Getting bowled out under 200 run thrice. India did not play Rahane which was their mistake. Rahane is a world class test batsman. If anything India have so many test batting stars waiting in the wings. Priyank panchal, P Shaw, Indrajith, Vihari, Agarwal have impressive show in the first class. There is no short supply of batsmen for India.
 
Currently our selectors have the following pool of youngsters to chose from

Shorter formats - Shreyas Iyer, Risabh Pant, Sanju Samson, Surya Kumar Yadav, Mandeep Singh, Mayank Agrawal, Prithvi Shaw, Shubman Gill

First Class - Shreyas Iyer, Karun Nair, Mayank Agrawal, Amit Bawne, Hanuma Vihari, R Samarth, Abhishek Eshwaran, Priyank Panchal, Prithvi Shaw, Shubman Gill

Many of these players will be playing regularly for the national side very soon and whoever works the hardest on his game will go onto have a 10-12 year long career for us. Are they all ready now? Perhaps not? They will need a long run with the national side and lots of support before making a mark for themselves.
 
sam_ahm said:
Look guys I might be wrong but what I mean is that youngsters may not be as passionate to play cricket for Team India as Sachin Rahul, Kumble, MS, etc... were, these players gave their body and soul for Indian cricket. For youngsters now, a good stint in the IPL might suffice. Their main target might be to get a good deal in the IPL.

I'm NOT saying IPL should be less lucrative, but youngsters should spend atleast 3-4 good seasons at Domestic level to be rewarded with a good IPL contract. Rewarding them with crores for some U19 performance without even a proper domestic season behind them can be dangerous.
Click to expand...

But my point is that players like Virat Kohli, KL Rahul, Bumrah, Ashwin, Jadeja and Bhuvi have had IPL from the day they finished age group cricket. They havent gone astray, if anything, they are pretty good test players.

So, I wouldn't worry about this too much.

IPL has made cricket a lucrative career now. So, more kids will turn professional and will pursue their dreams. So we will find a few more talented ones. As usual, some kids will go astray like Unmukt Chand, Vijay Zol, Samson, Sarfaraz Khan etc, and those with that extra bit of hunger will become international stars. It will happen with the same proportion as it was happening earlier. But now that we greater numbers of talented kids, the numbers that wont make it will also be large.
 
they are good enough if not better than others their age, can't compare them to international players yet because their is no space in team india at the moment tbh. only after world cup will spots open.
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Good. Now explain this to [MENTION=134505]rhony[/MENTION]
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Naa. You never get it no matter how many times I explain. IPL acts as a gateway into international cricket in India. To get into IPL, one needs to perform in domestics.

Look at the top domestic scorer in 2017 from karnataka. Mayank cant get into Indian team despite making loads in domestic cricket because he flopped in IPL.
 
sam_ahm said:
Young guns like Shaw, Gill, Pant, Iyer, ... They are getting crores of ruppees at such a young age for playing T20 cricket, how will this impact their thinking towards longer formats?
Click to expand...

Shame on you sir. There's nothing more disgusting than seeing people hating on it when young men are paid what they deserve for competing against all the odds.

Shame on you. They deserve every rupee. And if they don't care about longer formats, that's their choice; not yours. It's horrible to suggest they should not be paid fairly, so that they are forced to play games a minority of people like you prefer.
 
cricketindiafan said:
Currently our selectors have the following pool of youngsters to chose from

Shorter formats - Shreyas Iyer, Risabh Pant, Sanju Samson, Surya Kumar Yadav, Mandeep Singh, Mayank Agrawal, Prithvi Shaw, Shubman Gill

First Class - Shreyas Iyer, Karun Nair, Mayank Agrawal, Amit Bawne, Hanuma Vihari, R Samarth, Abhishek Eshwaran, Priyank Panchal, Prithvi Shaw, Shubman Gill

Many of these players will be playing regularly for the national side very soon and whoever works the hardest on his game will go onto have a 10-12 year long career for us. Are they all ready now? Perhaps not? They will need a long run with the national side and lots of support before making a mark for themselves.
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Rishabh Pant has a FC average of 55 and is captain of Delhi. What is the basis for his name not being there in both lists? Your stereotyping?
 
If you mean that this Indian talent will not be as good as their previous ATG line-up of Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Laxman, Dhoni, then yeah nobody is going to disagree with you. However, they've got Rahul (who I really rate), Kartik, Jadhav, Rayadu, Iyer.etc primed to go. That's apart from a top three of Dhawan, Rohit (don't rate him but still), and Kohli.

Most teams would kill for that kind of talent. But batting standards having declined overall which is a fair point.
 
rhony said:
Naa. You never get it no matter how many times I explain. IPL acts as a gateway into international cricket in India. To get into IPL, one needs to perform in domestics.

Look at the top domestic scorer in 2017 from karnataka. Mayank cant get into Indian team despite making loads in domestic cricket because he flopped in IPL.
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Rubbish - Mayank hasnt gotten into the Indian team because he has just had one excellent season. But he has been selected for India A for both the LOI and 4 day games.

He performs here, and watch him get into the test team at least.

For LOIs, IPL is one of the factors, not THE deciding factor.
 
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Rishta Aunty said:
If you mean that this Indian talent will not be as good as their previous ATG line-up of Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Laxman, Dhoni, then yeah nobody is going to disagree with you. However, they've got Rahul (who I really rate), Kartik, Jadhav, Rayadu, Iyer.etc primed to go. That's apart from a top three of Dhawan, Rohit (don't rate him but still), and Kohli.

Most teams would kill for that kind of talent. But batting standards having declined overall which is a fair point.
Click to expand...

IMHO, the bolded ones aren't that great.

We have some decent ones though - Pant, Shaw, Gill and Agarwal.

But as an Indian fan I have seen enough of Unmukt Chands and Vijay Zols, so not hoping anything unless they perform.
 
Sidilicious said:
IMHO, the bolded ones aren't that great.

We have some decent ones though - Pant, Shaw, Gill and Agarwal.

But as an Indian fan I have seen enough of Unmukt Chands and Vijay Zols, so not hoping anything unless they perform.
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Of course they aren't great. But to put things in persective, who is the gun batsman that Australia have beyond Warner or Smith. Or England (in Tests) after Root and to an extent Bairstow. Or even South Africa beyond the big names? Actually, Pakistan has one of the better backups relatively speaking. And we fans, are doubtful of our batting-line up!

I think this whole era doesn't have the kind of gun line-ups that teams had in the past. Pakistan's early-2000's/late-90's line up with Anwar, Inzi, Yousuf, Younis.etc would wipe the floor today.
 
Rishta Aunty said:
Of course they aren't great. But to put things in persective, who is the gun batsman that Australia have beyond Warner or Smith. Or England (in Tests) after Root and to an extent Bairstow. Or even South Africa beyond the big names? Actually, Pakistan has one of the better backups relatively speaking. And we fans, are doubtful of our batting-line up!

I think this whole era doesn't have the kind of gun line-ups that teams had in the past. Pakistan's early-2000's/late-90's line up with Anwar, Inzi, Yousuf, Younis.etc would wipe the floor today.
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Agreed, there are not many batting (or bowling) legends in world cricket today. It may be the T20’s. But I am just sick of the commentators/the twitters/the news feeds rating up the current young Indian talent pool as unbelievable, whereas they are no where near a Sehwag or a Tendulkar.
 
sam_ahm said:
Look guys I might be wrong but what I mean is that youngsters may not be as passionate to play cricket for Team India as Sachin Rahul, Kumble, MS, etc... were, these players gave their body and soul for Indian cricket. For youngsters now, a good stint in the IPL might suffice. Their main target might be to get a good deal in the IPL.

I'm NOT saying IPL should be less lucrative, but youngsters should spend atleast 3-4 good seasons at Domestic level to be rewarded with a good IPL contract. Rewarding them with crores for some U19 performance without even a proper domestic season behind them can be dangerous.
Click to expand...

Probably they should hold the full payment of the cricketers and put it under as future benefit fund
 
Lot of people are questioning the commitment of players to play for their country. Let me show you what commitment is.

2014 karthik was bought for 2.1$ million dollar
2015 he was bought for 1.8 million dollar
2018 he was bought for 1 million dollar

You know how hard he worked to get into national side? Kohli despite all that money he has very high national goal. There is nothing like representing your country where the entire nation is rooting for you. May be overseas players feel that way as the fan base is not like subcontinent. But in subcontinent ultimate goal for every youngster is to play for the country.

http://indianexpress.com/article/sp...camp-rebooted-dinesh-karthiks-career-5096875/
 
jnaveen1980 said:
Lot of people are questioning the commitment of players to play for their country. Let me show you what commitment is.

2014 karthik was bought for 2.1$ million dollar
2015 he was bought for 1.8 million dollar
2018 he was bought for 1 million dollar

You know how hard he worked to get into national side? Kohli despite all that money he has very high national goal. There is nothing like representing your country where the entire nation is rooting for you. May be overseas players feel that way as the fan base is not like subcontinent. But in subcontinent ultimate goal for every youngster is to play for the country.

http://indianexpress.com/article/sp...camp-rebooted-dinesh-karthiks-career-5096875/
Click to expand...

I think you are comparing apples and oranges. Playing for your country is nice. Having $5 million in the bank which gives you the freedom to do what you want with the rest of your life, without ever having worry about how to meet your expenses, is also very nice.
 
gazza619 said:
Agreed, there are not many batting (or bowling) legends in world cricket today. It may be the T20’s. But I am just sick of the commentators/the twitters/the news feeds rating up the current young Indian talent pool as unbelievable, whereas they are no where near a Sehwag or a Tendulkar.
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Yeah, but IPL commentary is designed to be over the top. I saw them talk about the TATA Nexon car for 2 minutes for god's sake. Shows you how underrated someone like Sehwag was though. People judge him by his numbers (and his massive mouth), but he played T20 cricket before that was a thing.
 
sam_ahm said:
I do agree. I also feel exposing young fast bowlers like Shivam Mavi to international cricketers at such a young age is a mistake. Poor lad has got thrashed around, what good will this do to his confidence?

Young guns like Shaw, Gill, Pant, Iyer, ... They are getting crores of ruppees at such a young age for playing T20 cricket, how will this impact their thinking towards longer formats?

The real impact of IPL will be seen from now onwards, 10-11 years since it has started, so far the players who played IPL were still from a generation that grew up watching test cricket and playing domestic 4 day games. This generation now, is the one who grew up watching IPL. We will see now how these youngsters progress.
Click to expand...

That's a very low statement. Without doing anything wrong, trying to frame the youngsters as morally weak is as low as it can get.

Calling them mediocre is ok. But not even Pakistani ppers, who enjoys digging to Indian players now and then, don't resort to this type of attack.
 
gazza619 said:
Agreed, there are not many batting (or bowling) legends in world cricket today. It may be the T20’s. But I am just sick of the commentators/the twitters/the news feeds rating up the current young Indian talent pool as unbelievable, whereas they are no where near a Sehwag or a Tendulkar.
Click to expand...

Dude, those are just for the moment. Not even us Indians take those seriously.
 
rhony said:
Naa. You never get it no matter how many times I explain. IPL acts as a gateway into international cricket in India. To get into IPL, one needs to perform in domestics.

Look at the top domestic scorer in 2017 from karnataka. Mayank cant get into Indian team despite making loads in domestic cricket because he flopped in IPL.
Click to expand...

Lol you have changed your tune now. Whenever I ask who are the finds of IPL you throw names like Ashwin and Jadeja. Now you yourself are saying that IPL gets its players from domestics.

Since according to you players can only get into indian team through IPL so why can't we blame IPL for giving us trash players?
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Lol you have changed your tune now. Whenever I ask who are the finds of IPL you throw names like Ashwin and Jadeja. Now you yourself are saying that IPL gets its players from domestics.

Since according to you players can only get into indian team through IPL so why can't we blame IPL for giving us trash players?
Click to expand...

Dadaji, you have comprehension issues and nostalgia. You are stubborn. There is a website called youtube where you can watch Sunny, Marshall and co. 24 hours a day.
 
I dont read too much from what they done in IPL on slow pattas.Still believe the likes of Pant are hacks.Let us see how they perform on the A tour and then judge them.
 
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