Chrish
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Who is it in your opinion?
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Third greatest Test cricketer ever?
- Thread starter Chrish
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On_the_up
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Who's the 2nd greatest?
JoniInsafian
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3rd greatest test cricketer: Sachin Tendulkar.
Chrish
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Majority of sensible fans would agree with Sobers and Bradman being top two. Rest is up for the debate
Monsee
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(This is Test only discussion)...putting it here before some 'Phaans' start quoting ODI numbers!
Usually Bradman and Sobers are considered the top two and closely followed by Viv due to his aura and terror he created against the best of the best bowlers of that time. Tendulkar, as great as he was (to me more of an excellent accumulator than anything else), does not have a clear cut advantage beyond longevity and mountains of runs to be considered the 'Absolute Best' after Bradman and Sobers.
Most batsmen usually are rated for their higher average, to be called head and shoulders above others. In Sachin's case, in terms of batting average, he does not have any clear lead over his contemporaries to be considered to an automatic 3rd or even 4th. He had no other dimensions to his game being pilling up runs: he could not be guaranteed to come on top of the fastest bowlers of his era (This is Test only discussion), nor could he be relied to stay there when the going got really tough and pressure was on, he was not much a presence in terms of saving/drawing when the team needed him to etc.
In fact, most people who watched both Gavaskar and Sachin, they rated Gavaskar even higher, so do I! Read it as how you wanna read it, that is what I think!
Usually Bradman and Sobers are considered the top two and closely followed by Viv due to his aura and terror he created against the best of the best bowlers of that time. Tendulkar, as great as he was (to me more of an excellent accumulator than anything else), does not have a clear cut advantage beyond longevity and mountains of runs to be considered the 'Absolute Best' after Bradman and Sobers.
Most batsmen usually are rated for their higher average, to be called head and shoulders above others. In Sachin's case, in terms of batting average, he does not have any clear lead over his contemporaries to be considered to an automatic 3rd or even 4th. He had no other dimensions to his game being pilling up runs: he could not be guaranteed to come on top of the fastest bowlers of his era (This is Test only discussion), nor could he be relied to stay there when the going got really tough and pressure was on, he was not much a presence in terms of saving/drawing when the team needed him to etc.
In fact, most people who watched both Gavaskar and Sachin, they rated Gavaskar even higher, so do I! Read it as how you wanna read it, that is what I think!
Buffet
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Third greatest test cricketer is Steyn. He is far ahead of his peers in era when batsmen are dominating.
No, just no.
big_gamer007
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Probably One of Viv, Imran and Sachin..
big_gamer007
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Rayyman
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Imran Khan 
If you have to put a probably then it means he is not.
I'll toss Murali's name into the hat, that Sri Lankan team would have been nothing without him and that's saying a lot when they had the likes of Sanga, Jayawardene, Jayasuriya etc. Not to mention the symbolism of a Tamil being the star player in a country torn apart by civil war.
Stewie
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I would put warne at the very top. Personal choice
Everybody else are within touching distance of each other
Everybody else are within touching distance of each other
Cuts_and_cuts_hard
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Imran
Sorry but we are talking about cricketers here, not baseball pitchers.If you have to put a probably then it means he is not.
I'll toss Murali's name into the hat, that Sri Lankan team would have been nothing without him and that's saying a lot when they had the likes of Sanga, Jayawardene, Jayasuriya etc. Not to mention the symbolism of a Tamil being the star player in a country torn apart by civil war.
This is the first time I've heard this.
SL_Fan
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Toss up between Imran and Kallis for mine.
The_Odd_One
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Has to be Imran or Warne.
Imran because he was a complete package.
Warne because he is so so far ahead of every other spinner in the entire history of Cricket.
Imran because he was a complete package.
Warne because he is so so far ahead of every other spinner in the entire history of Cricket.
I am no fan of Sachin Tendulkar but your post doesn't make a lot of sense to me. "Beyond longevity and mountains of runs" - If the latter doesn't make one great then I don't know what does. As for longevity, it is often the difference between good and great. A lot of batsmen have patches where they play better than their peers and predecessors, but to sustain it over two decades is something remarkable. I consider Lara to be a more talented batsman than Sachin but when it comes down to greatness, I would place Sachin above Lara as talent alone doesn't guarantee greatness imo. Lara had the ability to make more runs than he did but at the end of the day he couldn't and Sachin did.
You go on to say he had "no other dimensions to his game being pilling up runs". I don't think a one-dimensional player could ever have piled up such mountains of runs playing in an era replete with some of the best bowlers ever to have played the game. And at the end of the day isn't it all about making runs?
Rating and comparing players is mostly a fool's errand, and your opinion about Richards being third best holds as much weight as mine about someone else, but to dismiss actual statistics, and especially in the case where the player is the highest scorer of all time is unfair.
TahirFan
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Kallis as a bowler was medium pacer and very ordinary.
As a batsman he was way too slow and unable to rotate the strike.
13607 runs at avg of 59.41 in 157 matches with 47 100s.
More runs than 2nd highest run getter (Ponting) in tests and that too with very high average. When he averaged 58 in 90s, only 4-5 batsmen averaged in 50s.
Ab Fan
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Malcolm Marshall..
Slog
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Ab Fan
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Contenders:
Batsmen:- Viv Richards, Sachin Tendulkar, Brian Lara, Jack Hobbs
Bowlers:- Malcolm Marshall
Allrounder- Imran Khan
Spinner-Shane Warne
Batsmen:- Viv Richards, Sachin Tendulkar, Brian Lara, Jack Hobbs
Bowlers:- Malcolm Marshall
Allrounder- Imran Khan
Spinner-Shane Warne
Arham_PakFan
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MS Dhoni,in tests?
And that too ranked above Imran,who is easily top 5 stuff in Tests.
Hitman
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Sorry ... the list is for both test & one dayers combined.
why surprise ?
i give preferences to batsmen & all rounders clearly over bowling. This basically because these 2 take more discipline & concentration in the long run to succeed than bowling . Just my thinking. Wicket keepers too are all rounders because they are involved in 2 disciplines.
Dhoni was an ATG one day batsman, one of the best finishers in one dayers & a brilliant captain with severral ICC trophies. In addition to this he played 90 tests( long enough for a wicket keeper) & averaged 38+(good for a keeper). His wicket keeping track record too is one among the very best.So he deserves a spot.
why asked so? this is for both tests & one dayers. Any name worth underserving?
JaDed
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Assuming:
Bradman-greatest batsman
Sobers-greatest all-rounder
Then it's
Marshall - greatest bowler ,that would be third.
Bradman-greatest batsman
Sobers-greatest all-rounder
Then it's
Marshall - greatest bowler ,that would be third.
Arham_PakFan
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Yes,but the thread is about tests only.
How many ODI's has Sobers played that you have placed him at the top?
And Imran in my Opinion was the best all rounder of the quartret so it makes zero sense that you have put him at 10,below the others,add to that he was also a brilliant captain.Like I said top 5 material.
JaDed
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1980s Windies team has a good chance of beating this team because u didn't select even a single fast carribbean bowler but went for all all-rounders.
This is not about selecting an eleven. Is it? This is best 10 cricketers of all time.
JaDed
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And according to you Marshall doesn't make that list because?
In your list who according to you is a better bowler than him?
Did i select any bowler in my list? All the bowlers in the list are all rounders too.
Marshall was a great specialist bowler who could bat. Marshall played along with 3 quality bowlers.No doubt he got more than enough support from such strong bowling units. Marshal's one day record too is not that great, i assume.
Cuts_and_cuts_hard
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1) Bradman
2) Sobers
3) Imran Khan
4) Malcolm Marshall
5) Viv Richards
6) Keith Miller
7) Richard Hadlee
8) Sachin Tendulkar
9) Mutthiah Muralitharan
10) Jack Hobbs
2) Sobers
3) Imran Khan
4) Malcolm Marshall
5) Viv Richards
6) Keith Miller
7) Richard Hadlee
8) Sachin Tendulkar
9) Mutthiah Muralitharan
10) Jack Hobbs
Monsee
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Abbaay kaya ghar mein stats banwaa ker layaay ho?
You look at all the stats, not just pick and choose ones especially since we are not talking a specific period or else many batsmen will have an even higher average than that:
Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 4s 6s Ct St
Tests 200 329 33 15921 248* 53.78 51 68 69 115 0
Indians and their fascination to make him look better than what he actually was!
Hitman
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I wonder why Pak fans specifically pick Imran's last 10 years and never fail to mention how he averaged XXX with the bat and YYY with the ball in those years?
And what's there to make Sachin look good? Usually it's about searching for a player who makes it to people's 'World XI'. In Sachin's case it's about searching for people's 'World XI' were he doesn't make it. Very recently Imran's own contemporary David Gower made his list of his '50 Greatest Players Of All Time'. Yet his own contemporary Imran Khan was ranked by him at #11. While Sachin found a place at #3 in his list, after Bradman and Sobers, even ahead of Viv Richards. Was that influenced by any Indian as well?
Here's the link - http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...id-Gower-s-50-Greatest-Cricketers-of-All-Time
Gower is bitter about Imran. Anyways I agree that Sachin is the superior cricketer among the two, but not by much.
Hitman
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So anyone who doesn't consider Imran Khan to be the greatest or above Sachin is bitter about him?
Nah, he raised ball tampering allegations against Imran. Also suppported Botham and Lamb in the famousball tampering case.So anyone who doesn't consider Imran Khan to be the greatest or above Sachin is bitter about him?
Name those many batsmen who have scored 10,000+ runs at 60+ average.
big_gamer007
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If you have to put a probably then it means he is not.
I'll toss Murali's name into the hat, that Sri Lankan team would have been nothing without him and that's saying a lot when they had the likes of Sanga, Jayawardene, Jayasuriya etc. Not to mention the symbolism of a Tamil being the star player in a country torn apart by civil war.
Hahaha I see what you did there.. Murali has the record to be in contention however his action would ensure he will never be regarded as a top 3 cricketer.. Not his fault but that's the unfortunate truth..
Hitman
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Forget about the recent list made by David Gower, there was a list made by 15 highly qualified judges in 2001. Those judges included former greats of the game and some of the most respected cricket pundits. The panel of judges included just 1 Indian, Sunny Gavaskar. It was named 'ESPN Legends Of Cricket'. Sachin was just half way through is career in 2001, while Imran Khan finished is career years ago.
What were the results? Sachin was rated at #7 while Imran was rated at #8. Was that influenced by any Indian or the BCCI as well? Here's the link of it on PP -
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ends-of-Cricket-Top-25-Cricketers-Of-All-Time
What were the results? Sachin was rated at #7 while Imran was rated at #8. Was that influenced by any Indian or the BCCI as well? Here's the link of it on PP -
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ends-of-Cricket-Top-25-Cricketers-Of-All-Time
ethan hunt
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If imran khan was Indian he would have been the greatest(only) ever fast bowler produced by India by a distance . The greatest captain , the best all rounder , biggest matchwinner and the best looking man in that country . A larger than life character with that sort of media scrutiny . Just imagine the hype.
Sachin is barely indias best batsman that too debatable as many Indians put him behind dravid and gavaskar in test cricket.
Its hardly a comparison as an overall package.
Sachin is barely indias best batsman that too debatable as many Indians put him behind dravid and gavaskar in test cricket.
Its hardly a comparison as an overall package.
I put the controversy over his action as yet another point in his favour because without the witch-hunt against him, we would never have realised that according to the old laws every bowler chucks and the laws were in desperate need of revision. How many players changes the laws of cricket for the better? Now how many of them were also one of the greatest players of all time?
It doesn't really matter anyway, it's only Sachin's secret PP account Hitman who cares about these lists.
Everyone else knows these lists are only fun and games and can never be taken seriously as long as Rahat Ali's name is missing.
JoniInsafian
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The number is 50+ batting average and bowling average under 20-.... Pakistani fans mention it because it's extraordinary, even better than Sobers numbers... But no Pakistani is arguing that Imran is better than Sobers based on those 10 years because you consider the overall career...
By the way you can cherry-pick any 10 year period for Tendulkar, you'll never find numbers as great as Imran's.... Imran Khan was clearly the superior cricketer: he was statistically the greatest bowling all-rounder of all-time.... Tendulkar has 5 to 10 batsmen with better averages....
Also Imran was a great captain, lead Pakistan to series victories against the great Windies and world cup win... While Tendulkar was a timid character with 0 leadership ability, just focused on accumulating runs without any agression and care for winning matches... The Hashim Amla of his time.... Comparing Tendulkar to Imran is like comparing Amla to someone who is Kohli+Steyn combined...
JoniInsafian
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Imagine if Amla was Indian... He would end up with 20k runs and they'd be making statues of him
JoniInsafian
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How to know somebody is a deluded Indian: they think Kapil Dev is better than Imran Khan...
Whether you consider ODIs or tests, everyone will agree that Imran Khan is a much better all-rounder.... All facets of the game.... Better test batsman, better test bowler, better odi batsman and better odi bowler...
Hitman
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Tell that to those 15 judges who picked Sachin ahead of Imran Khan in 2001, when Sachin was just halfway through his career. Also tell that to Imran's own contemporary David Gower who picked Sachin at #3 and Imran at #11 in his list.
Now let's get started with the conspiracy theories. Go ahead.
Arsalan Pro
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Imran Khan!!!
JoniInsafian
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Am I talking to Hitman or David Gower???? Sir you don't have mind of your own to judge that you need judges?? You can't argue that Tendulkar is better than Imran so you look for bitter people like Gower to make a stupid point
)
Hitman
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Am I talking to Hitman or David Gower???? Sir you don't have mind of your own to judge that you need judges?? You can't argue that Tendulkar is better than Imran so you look for bitter people like Gower to make a stupid point
What did I say in my last post?
)Statistically Gavaskar was ahead of Richards, played more difficult bowling and was an opener. So third best is either Gavaskar or someone else but not Richards.
yeah ... every one who do not place Imran at the top of their lists in every thing is a 'deluded Indian'.
I rate Kapil a better all rounder to Imran.Taking plain averages is not my cup of tea.Circumstances they played in also matters.
bat avg: of Imran is largely inflated by 1 not out per every 5 inns.Kapil played for much longer than Imran for his end avg:He was more destructive(as per cricinfo his str: rate is around 81),he was better in Windies & he played many clutch innings against strong bowling units.
Kapil bowled for much longer than Imran & along with some club level dibbly dobblies like Binny ,Madan lal,
Sastri etc etc and didn't miss a single test.In his peak years Kapil played 10-11 tests a year.
All these factors do affect career averages substantially.
Kapil was the best one day all rounder in the 80s.He was a great captain in his own right who lifted even a world cup at just 24 years by beating the allmighty Windies.And he has some other results to show too like the ENG series victory in 86.To achieve these by captaining a club level set of bowlers is a testimony of his captaincy brilliance. He was a brilliant all round fielder also.
All these make me rate Kapil very highly.
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I respect Kapil alot, he is the best pacer India has produced to date. But Imran is clearly better. If only Kapil didn't prolong his career to break Richard Hadlee's record.
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Sidilicious
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I might consider Tendulkar to be a greater cricketer than Imran, but I certainly won't consider Kapil to be a greater test cricketer than Imran. And I am saying this as an Indian.
Most Indians would have this view. Imran easily overshadows Kapil as a test cricketer.
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Monsee
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Going by the SR BS argument, Afridi is the baap of all Indian batsmen bar one probably!
Tera Gawaandi
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He was rated GOAT way before his longevity was even in picture. He was rated as GOAT way back in 1999 by none other than DON himself.
With longevity, average is bound to drop, compare his contemporary's retirement stats with his stats at same number of games, otherwise it's unfair to compare a 120 game career with 200 game career. Also for a guy who played for 24 years, It's tough to chose which contemporary to chose for comparison, those who started with him in 89 and finished in late 90s/early 00s or vice a versa. He has played in so many conditions/eras. He was averaging 60~ after 100 tests, rest is bonus. Only Lara and Ponting are his true contamporaries and worthy of comparison. All 3 are TIER 1 GOATS.[/QUOTE]
Given the choice if I was captain who could only choose one it would be Sachin as well over Imran. Of course one was a complete batsman where as the other an all rounder but Sachin had more "on days" then IK. You see, I can be impartial and give India credit when they deserve it
rby Understand that most Pakistanis can never see anything wrong with Imran Khan or anything he says or represents. I am one of a very few exceptions.
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Arham_PakFan
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1)Sobers
2)Imran
3)Tendulkar
4)Marshall
5)Viv
6)Warne
7)Kapil
8)Hadlee
9)Botham
10)Murali.
2)Imran
3)Tendulkar
4)Marshall
5)Viv
6)Warne
7)Kapil
8)Hadlee
9)Botham
10)Murali.
Arham_PakFan
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Imran could have played against weaker teams like Sri Lanka more often to better his bowling average but he didn't.His captaincy record could have been even better had he played against the minnows of that time.
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Sidilicious
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I'd have Steyn and Gavaskar up there. Kapil, Hadlee and Botham won't be there for me.
Monsee
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Given the choice if I was captain who could only choose one it would be Sachin as well over Imran. Of course one was a complete batsman where as the other an all rounder but Sachin had more "on days" then IK. You see, I can be impartial and give India credit when they deserve it
It's not about PC or behind kissing (demonstrated by many enlightened Pakistanis these days), I am not a die hard supporter of Imran. I do see and accept weaknesses in him: the player, the captain, the bowler and even Imran the politician!
I see Teendu as someone who feasted against weaker teams while Imran decided not to play and yet got an average rarely seen amongst best of the best i.e. 22. Tendulkar barely has any ground breaking place amongst his contemporaries beyond a mountain of runs; he is not head and shoulders above players like Ponting, Kallis, Dravid etc.
If an XI was being created based on longevity and mindless run scoring, he would be it...but when it comes to performing under pressure and delivering when the team was under the pump, Dravid and Teendu was the man!
big_gamer007
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Think most people here are young who have seen a post tennis elbow Sachin if you had followed his career before his injury (90's career) you would know he is a legit contender for top 3 cricketers ever..
Slog
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I can only laugh at people who think Kapil was better than Imran
Chrish
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Depends what type of numbers we are talking about. Sachin's home vs away performance is much superior than imran
Just pointing out the flaw in your argument
If you have read my past mail's will know that I am the last one to give Indian's the benefit of the doubt.Perhaps if Imran had not lost a few crucial years due to injury I would have favoured him but hindsight is a great thing. To bad that other batsmen were not capable of scoring "mindless runs" as you put it! IK often took wickets of tailenders as well so lets not count them as well. Tendu mostly came good when he was mostly needed especially against Pak.
ahmedzee
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Ahmad Shahzad
Monsee
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Amazing logic, so he should have excused himself when tailenders came to bat LOL
Facing weak opposition or not is a personal choice which Imran obviously made and Tendulkar did not...don't come up with excuses that don't make any sense!
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SL_Fan
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Might not have looked all that flash but can't beat actual runs, wickets and catches tho. Should add Hadlee in there as well forgot about him. Those would have to be the top contenders for mine.
Bhaijaan
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One of Bradman or Sobers probably.
JibranAnsari
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After bradman and sobers , i think its imran khan.
JibranAnsari
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Sachin is the 2nd greatest greatest batsman but doesnt make him the 2nd greatest cricketer of all.
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Bradman
Sobers
Marshall
McGrath
Lillee
Imran
Hadlee
SRT
Warne
Steyn
Top 10 test cricketers of all time
Honourable mentions
Lara
Murali
Wasim
Viv
Kallis
Sobers
Marshall
McGrath
Lillee
Imran
Hadlee
SRT
Warne
Steyn
Top 10 test cricketers of all time
Honourable mentions
Lara
Murali
Wasim
Viv
Kallis
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