Virat Kohli - How will Indian victory in Australia affect his influence and position as captain?

[Mamoon]

This is Kohli’s greatest triumph and disaster.

His dictator-like grip on the Indian cricket team has been lost forever.

The spell has broken.

The new coping mechanism.

Unfortunately, this too shall end in tears.

I assure you that Kohli will continue to lead the team the way he used to and extent his legacy as the greatest Asian Test captain of all time.

This Indian team has established itself as the greatest Asian Test team of all time and Kohli has played a huge role in that.

 

[ManFan]

The new coping mechanism.

Unfortunately, this too shall end in tears.

I assure you that Kohli will continue to lead the team the way he used to and extent his legacy as the greatest Asian Test captain of all time.

This Indian team has established itself as the greatest Asian Test team of all time and Kohli has played a huge role in that.

Not everything is a coping mechanism. For Christ’s sake, take it out of your mouth for a moment.

Kohli is the best captain of his generation and leads the best team of his generation. Is it the GOAT Asian Test team? Very likely. They don’t have to prove much to anyone at this point, it’s only a matter of bias and personal like/dislike.

I made my post because for the past few years, Kohli was given the leadership after being groomed for years and made decisions that overrode the Coach’s. And it cost him series in SA and ENG that he could have easily won.

Now, Kohli went home and Rahane will forever be known as the captain who won this historic series but it is still the team that Kohli built. Nobody can or should take ANY credit away from Kohli.

But it shows that Indian cricket can, has, and will survive and flourish without Kohli.

I know you’re on Cloud 9 after having your vision of India being vindicated on PP after 5 years of bashing it everyday to the blind (that includes me). But, it’s time to move on. Most of PP has accepted the reality that IND cricket is galaxies ahead of PAK and the latter may never catch up.

No one wants to think they are a type. But your mold is easily understood; always the contrarian seeking controversy to showcase a superior intelligence (justified in many ways). But, always in need of a new fight and crusade. It’s not a bad way of living.

My only request, pick a new crusade now that most of PP has accepted that IND is a superior cricketing nation than PAK.

I look forward to a new chapter in your PP career. Cheers.

 

[Mamoon]

Not everything is a coping mechanism. For Christ’s sake, take it out of your mouth for a moment.

Kohli is the best captain of his generation and leads the best team of his generation. Is it the GOAT Asian Test team? Very likely. They don’t have to prove much to anyone at this point, it’s only a matter of bias and personal like/dislike.

I made my post because for the past few years, Kohli was given the leadership after being groomed for years and made decisions that overrode the Coach’s. And it cost him series in SA and ENG that he could have easily won.

Now, Kohli went home and Rahane will forever be known as the captain who won this historic series but it is still the team that Kohli built. Nobody can or should take ANY credit away from Kohli.

But it shows that Indian cricket can, has, and will survive and flourish without Kohli.

I know you’re on Cloud 9 after having your vision of India being vindicated on PP after 5 years of bashing it everyday to the blind (that includes me). But, it’s time to move on. Most of PP has accepted the reality that IND cricket is galaxies ahead of PAK and the latter may never catch up.

No one wants to think they are a type. But your mold is easily understood; always the contrarian seeking controversy to showcase a superior intelligence (justified in many ways). But, always in need of a new fight and crusade. It’s not a bad way of living.

My only request, pick a new crusade now that most of PP has accepted that IND is a superior cricketing nation than PAK.

I look forward to a new chapter in your PP career. Cheers.

And that is part of his great legacy. This is what great leaders do - they don’t just make themselves and their own team look good; they create a legacy that outlasts their own careers and the country reaps the rewards long after their retirement.

Having your team collapse into a heap after you are gone makes you look good individually but it is not great leadership.

A great captain doesn’t think about what he can take from a team, what he can extract from a team but rather, what he can give the the team.

Kohli has changed India’s fast bowling culture and has brought back the intensity and aggression of Ganguly but taken it to a different level.

The Kohli era has changed Indian cricket forever. They will not be around forever but the next generation of Indian cricket will pick up from here.

A timid, docile character like Rahane looks good when he steps in from time to time as a makeshift captain, but he does not have the personality and the character to have done the rebuilding job that Kohli did when he took over from Dhoni in Test cricket, a team that was ranked 5th in the world and had no fast bowlers.

Rahane can barely keep his own batting together. If he was the captain over the last 6 years, the outlook of the Indian team would have been considerably different.

Also, Shastri deserves a lot of credit. His arrogance and brash attitude works seamlessly with Kohli and keeps the pressure off the players.

He doesn’t take crap from anyone outside the dressing room and will defend his players even they are wrong, and that helps building team bonding.

This notion that Kohli has lost control and he will be viewed as an ineffective captain, Rahane will be remembered for cleaning up his mess, Kohli’s spell is over etc. are nothing but sad coping mechanisms that will be proved wrong in due time just like other sad coping mechanisms.

Simply stating that it is not a coping mechanism does not change anything. The reality is that our fans always need something to cling onto. Unfortunately, this too shall end in bitter disappointment.

 

[ManFan]

And that is part of his great legacy. This is what great leaders do - they don’t just make themselves and their own team look good; they create a legacy that outlasts their own careers and the country reaps the rewards long after their retirement.

Having your team collapse into a heap after you are gone makes you look good individually but it is not great leadership.

A great captain doesn’t think about what he can take from a team, what he can extract from a team but rather, what he can give the the team.

Kohli has changed India’s fast bowling culture and has brought back the intensity and aggression of Ganguly but taken it to a different level.

The Kohli era has changed Indian cricket forever. They will not be around forever but the next generation of Indian cricket will pick up from here.

A timid, docile character like Rahane looks good when he steps in from time to time as a makeshift captain, but he does not have the personality and the character to have done the rebuilding job that Kohli did when he took over from Dhoni in Test cricket, a team that was ranked 5th in the world and had no fast bowlers.

Rahane can barely keep his own batting together. If he was the captain over the last 6 years, the outlook of the Indian team would have been considerably different.

Also, Shastri deserves a lot of credit. His arrogance and brash attitude works seamlessly with Kohli and keeps the pressure off the players.

He doesn’t take crap from anyone outside the dressing room and will defend his players even they are wrong, and that helps building team bonding.

This notion that Kohli has lost control and he will be viewed as an ineffective captain, Rahane will be remembered for cleaning up his mess, Kohli’s spell is over etc. are nothing but sad coping mechanisms that will be proved wrong in due time just like other sad coping mechanisms.

Simply stating that it is not a coping mechanism does not change anything. The reality is that our fans always need something to cling onto. Unfortunately, this too shall end in bitter disappointment.

Once again, a lot of needless words to convey ideas that I don’t disagree with and stated in my post.

Kohli hasn’t LOST control but the perception that without him, Indian cricket will collapse like a house of cards. That’s where his legitimacy to override the coach and others came from and this series showed that is simply not true.

That’s what I meant by the “spell is broken”. If anything, this series has shown that Kohli’s role in the team will decrease because he is growing older and his young players are starting to flourish on their own.

Yes, it is to Kohli’s credit for having created a fantastic team on his own.

And LOL at Shastri’s “effectiveness”. The guy is drunk as a skunk, shown to be sleeping during the matches, literally. Truth is, any Tom, Duck, and Harry could have won with this team. Yes, I know your response; “he came with the bowling plans to restrict the off-side and creates an atmosphere of toughness”. This is nothing but fluff.

At the end of the day, talent makes or breaks a team. There is no difference between Shastri and Mickey Arthur. Only difference is one had a terrible mediocre team at his disposal and another, one of the greatest. Words like “tough” and “brave” are buzzwords that are part of lazy stereotyping in sports. Truth is, one team performs better due to execution and talent excess.

For example, the fallacy that Allan Border installed “toughness” in AUS in the late 80’s to turn them around is laughable. They simply got better players to keep debuting during a golden generation and as soon as that well dried up, they have struggled to obtain those standards once again.

And needing something to cling on, well, my previous post explained that part all too well it seems.

 

[ManFan]

Once again, a lot of needless words to convey ideas that I don’t disagree with and stated in my post.

Kohli hasn’t LOST control but the perception that without him, Indian cricket will collapse like a house of cards. That’s where his legitimacy to override the coach and others came from and this series showed that is simply not true.

That’s what I meant by the “spell is broken”. If anything, this series has shown that Kohli’s role in the team will decrease because he is growing older and his young players are starting to flourish on their own.

Yes, it is to Kohli’s credit for having created a fantastic team on his own.

And LOL at Shastri’s “effectiveness”. The guy is drunk as a skunk, shown to be sleeping during the matches, literally. Truth is, any Tom, Duck, and Harry could have won with this team. Yes, I know your response; “he came with the bowling plans to restrict the off-side and creates an atmosphere of toughness”. This is nothing but fluff.

At the end of the day, talent makes or breaks a team. There is no difference between Shastri and Mickey Arthur. Only difference is one had a terrible mediocre team at his disposal and another, one of the greatest. Words like “tough” and “brave” are buzzwords that are part of lazy stereotyping in sports. Truth is, one team performs better due to execution and talent excess.

For example, the fallacy that Allan Border installed “toughness” in AUS in the late 80’s to turn them around is laughable. They simply got better players to keep debuting during a golden generation and as soon as that well dried up, they have struggled to obtain those standards once again.

And needing something to cling on, well, my previous post explained that part all too well it seems.

hasn’t LOST *complete* control

 

[dildilpak]

Virat seems to have a poor eye for talent. He has been quite clear about backing Saha over Pant.

He is also partly responsible for killing my interest in the IPL through his ridiculous choices at RCB. Lemme rant a bit.

There was this guy Sarfraz whom he went gaga over while chucking away Mayank, KL Rahul, Chris Gayle, Quinton DeKock.

But was insistent that RCB pay a record breaking amount for Yuvraj when he was well beyond done with the game.

He also got the team to pay a massive price for Dinesh Karthik before discarding him after one season. Watson was brought in for a good amount and then was chucked out - Dhoni then went on to buy him and Watson pretty much won them that season including a crazy knock in the final that I remember watching.

It's a miracle Virat hasn't let ABD go yet. But I guess he's one poor season away from being discarded like Gayle was

Isn’t Saha your best wicketkeeper - i would think his selection in a pink ball test would make complete sense, because the pink ball is so much harder to see in the twilight time & Pant is not exactly known for his wicket keeping skills. Probably they had planned this all along - Saha for the pink ball test & Pant for the rest of the series. As i said earlier - sometimes plans work out, sometimes they dont.

I know Pant is now a superstar & maybe even impossible to reconsider- but it will still be a huge gamble to have him keep wickets to spinners on a spinning wicket in India.

Regarding IPL & RCB - is that even real cricket? You are condemning a guy who changed the whole pace bowling culture of the team & won you a series in Australia with some IPL rubbish?

 

[Last Monetarist]

Truth is, one team performs better due to execution and talent excess.

This kind of rubbish is spewed when someone is inclined to tailor the narrative post-facto.

That bit about Allan Border is also absolute nonsense.

 

[pillionrider]

Isn’t Saha your best wicketkeeper

Technically, Dhoni hasn't retired completely from cricket, so No, Saha isn't the best keeper in the country. Also, the fraudulence of his alleged skills have been completely exposed in the years since Dhoni stopped playing test cricket.

Best among mediocre, doesn't make you a good keeper.

It anyway doesn't matter. By the time Pant is Saha's age, he will be a far superior keeper

Regarding IPL & RCB - is that even real cricket? You are condemning a guy who changed the whole pace bowling culture of the team & won you a series in Australia with some IPL rubbish?

To some people it is the only cricket. You might consider yourself some kind of test purist Doesn't make it true for everyone.

The decisions I mentioned just show his eye for picking and spotting talent. And more importantly, his lack of far-sightedness.

He is short-sighted and expects quick results. Maybe because he's a great player who can make swift changes to his game in the nets and go the next day into a match and score big.

 

[dildilpak]

Technically, Dhoni hasn't retired completely from cricket, so No, Saha isn't the best keeper in the country. Also, the fraudulence of his alleged skills have been completely exposed in the years since Dhoni stopped playing test cricket.

Best among mediocre, doesn't make you a good keeper.

It anyway doesn't matter. By the time Pant is Saha's age, he will be a far superior keeper

Saha is regarded as one of the best pureplay wicketkeepers across the globe, not just in India. Period.


To some people it is the only cricket. You might consider yourself some kind of test purist Doesn't make it true for everyone.

The decisions I mentioned just show his eye for picking and spotting talent. And more importantly, his lack of far-sightedness.

He is short-sighted and expects quick results. Maybe because he's a great player who can make swift changes to his game in the nets and go the next day into a match and score big.

You are in the wrong thread - this is not the IPL thread but about the recently concluded test series. If any captain was expecting quick results, he would have first dropped Ajinkya Rahane who is one of the most inconsistent test players (1 SENA century in 5 years & cant play spin at all) or even Jadeja (took a long while to join the party)

 

[Saurav]

In addition to the previous post.

Based on Shridhar's interview it was a collective decision of the coaches, kohli and rahane to blood in lefthanders for the second test as theer were only lright handers in the team. That paved the way for Jaddu and Pant.

I so much hope a detailed documentary is made so that we know all the background stories related to this series.

So it took them a humiliating loss to grasp the simple fact that you can't have all RHBs

Jaddu was injured for Adelaide.Saha was picked for keeping.Rest all is hogwash

 

[Saurav]

Technically, Dhoni hasn't retired completely from cricket, so No, Saha isn't the best keeper in the country. Also, the fraudulence of his alleged skills have been completely exposed in the years since Dhoni stopped playing test cricket.

Best among mediocre, doesn't make you a good keeper.

It anyway doesn't matter. By the time Pant is Saha's age, he will be a far superior keeper



To some people it is the only cricket. You might consider yourself some kind of test purist Doesn't make it true for everyone.

The decisions I mentioned just show his eye for picking and spotting talent. And more importantly, his lack of far-sightedness.

He is short-sighted and expects quick results. Maybe because he's a great player who can make swift changes to his game in the nets and go the next day into a match and score big.

Saha is far better keeper than Dhoni.Always has been

 

[dildilpak]

Technically, Dhoni hasn't retired completely from cricket, so No, Saha isn't the best keeper in the country. Also, the fraudulence of his alleged skills have been completely exposed in the years since Dhoni stopped playing test cricket.

Best among mediocre, doesn't make you a good keeper.

It anyway doesn't matter. By the time Pant is Saha's age, he will be a far superior keeper



To some people it is the only cricket. You might consider yourself some kind of test purist Doesn't make it true for everyone.

The decisions I mentioned just show his eye for picking and spotting talent. And more importantly, his lack of far-sightedness.

He is short-sighted and expects quick results. Maybe because he's a great player who can make swift changes to his game in the nets and go the next day into a match and score big.

Dhoni? Guy announced during the IPL that he has retired from international cricket. But he never was the best keeper - against spin, yes but not against pace.

Saha>>Dhoni >>>>>> (daylight) >>> Pant

 

[Mamoon]

Once again, a lot of needless words to convey ideas that I don’t disagree with and stated in my post.

Kohli hasn’t LOST control but the perception that without him, Indian cricket will collapse like a house of cards. That’s where his legitimacy to override the coach and others came from and this series showed that is simply not true.

That’s what I meant by the “spell is broken”. If anything, this series has shown that Kohli’s role in the team will decrease because he is growing older and his young players are starting to flourish on their own.

Yes, it is to Kohli’s credit for having created a fantastic team on his own.

And LOL at Shastri’s “effectiveness”. The guy is drunk as a skunk, shown to be sleeping during the matches, literally. Truth is, any Tom, Duck, and Harry could have won with this team. Yes, I know your response; “he came with the bowling plans to restrict the off-side and creates an atmosphere of toughness”. This is nothing but fluff.

At the end of the day, talent makes or breaks a team. There is no difference between Shastri and Mickey Arthur. Only difference is one had a terrible mediocre team at his disposal and another, one of the greatest. Words like “tough” and “brave” are buzzwords that are part of lazy stereotyping in sports. Truth is, one team performs better due to execution and talent excess.

For example, the fallacy that Allan Border installed “toughness” in AUS in the late 80’s to turn them around is laughable. They simply got better players to keep debuting during a golden generation and as soon as that well dried up, they have struggled to obtain those standards once again.

And needing something to cling on, well, my previous post explained that part all too well it seems.

No captain can win with poor players. That is a given - however, great leadership can prove to be the difference between a great player underperforming and fulfilling his potential.

Ishant Sharma was the butt of jokes under Dhoni with his career going nowhere. Under Kohli, he has become a different bowler altogether, and has proved himself to be one of the best Test pacers in the world under his leadership.

He is still the same bowler, but now he has a captain who can use his strengths effectively. That is the difference between leadership.

And he is only one example. I can go on and on and on.

As far as Shastri is concerned, the fact that some people are still clinging onto the “he is drunk all the time and does nothing” rubbish clearly shows that how stubborn some people can be and will cling onto their ignorance no matter what.

Shastri is a fantastic man manager. He understands his role really well and executes it to perfection. If you really think that he had no role in motivating the squad after the Adelaide debacle and Kohli’s departure, and played no role in conditioning the young players to deliver, you are clearly shying away from reality.

He planned out the bowling tactics with the bowling coach months in advance. He clearly does a lot more than sit around drink booze.

The difference between Arthur and Shastri is clear. Arthur will not win in Australia with a reserve Indian attack and neither will Shastri win in Australia with Pakistani bowling, but Shastri will not surrender home series to Sri Lanka and New Zealand with Pakistan like Arthur did in 2017-18, because he will have the intelligence to understand the importance of playing two specialist spinners in UAE conditions.

Shastri has been part of the team management that has won two Test series in Australia back to back and people think he is just a free-rider. Some people will hold onto what they believe in simply because they do not have the strength to admit that they were wrong.

 

[ex-q-zit]

The question is about captaincy and whether Kohli is a good enough captain. I'd even question if he has the support of the full team anymore.

Unless you want two captains at the same time in the team




Yes. And I also bid him a warm, congratulatory and respectful goodbye as far as his test career is concerned after the game.

Let's not start talking about what was said or not said. You seem to have come alive here again after Sydney. But if you want to talk old posts, I was one among not many here, who felt India would bounce back after Kohli left. Also was confident right through the Gabba test that we were gonna win, even when we were 150 behind and Thakur, Sundar had just walked in.

On that note, weren't you the same who was confident a Brisbane draw was the best India could hope for. At tea weren't you like - Pant batting India to victory is next to impossible

By your logic After Gilchrist won the series in India as stand-in captain the whole team would have stood behind him instead of Ponting but thats not how teams function. Yes, Rahane did a fantastic job and deserves all the accolades. But its also a fact that he led a team built by Kohli over the past few years. So discrediting Kohli's efforts too equally wrong. These fast bowlers who are taking 20 wickets weren't plucked from a tree just before the flight to Australia. Kohli emphasized on having genuine pace bowlers and its now paying dividends. That is the reason we have had 2 victories in SENA within 3 years. Not sure when that happened the last time around. Yes, we still haven't won in SEN but give this team a year and they will do wonders.

I dont want 2 captains in the team but we can have a strong leadership group between the captain, VC and coaches. I know you want to disbelieve what the coaches say as they are stooges (drinking buddies) of Shastri as per your logic. But why does Ashwin have to lie? Just like how its wrong to brush off Rahane's contribution in this win a captain its wrong to brush off Shastri's too.

Yes, I felt draw was the most probable outcome but doubly happy that India won because not only did India win but I also won handsomely as I had put my money on Indian victory when the odds were 1:17. So it was a win-win situation for me personally.

 

[pillionrider]

Dhoni? Guy announced during the IPL that he has retired from international cricket. But he never was the best keeper - against spin, yes but not against pace.

Saha>>Dhoni >>>>>> (daylight) >>> Pant

On what basis have you put Saha as some great keeper vs pace compared to Dhoni. How many fluffs have you seen from Dhoni vs pace. Just because Saha dives acrobatically occasionally to catch something he should have anticipated earlier, doesn't make him a great keeper. It makes for good photos. I really don't want to bag the guy cuz he seems like a nice guy but...

Saha is far better keeper than Dhoni.Always has been

Only according to Bengalis

Yes, I felt draw was the most probable outcome but doubly happy that India won because not only did India win but I also won handsomely as I had put my money on Indian victory when the odds were 1:17. So it was a win-win situation for me personally.

Sure you did

You bet with your heart but post on forums with your brain

 

[MP2011]

Saha better than Dhoni? lol you learn something new everyday.

 

[Swashbuckler]

On what basis have you put Saha as some great keeper vs pace compared to Dhoni. How many fluffs have you seen from Dhoni vs pace. Just because Saha dives acrobatically occasionally to catch something he should have anticipated earlier, doesn't make him a great keeper. It makes for good photos. I really don't want to bag the guy cuz he seems like a nice guy but...

Dhoni was below average against pace, never used to attempt catches that required full length dives. Very good against spin though, probably the best when it comes to stumpings.

Saha does anticipate well and is also acrobatic. Regarding dropped catches, everyone does that, Guptill and Jonty Rhodes had their share of bad misses.

Against pace: Saha>Pant>Dhoni
Against spin: Saha=Dhoni>>>Pant

 

[ManFan]

This kind of rubbish is spewed when someone is inclined to tailor the narrative post-facto.

That bit about Allan Border is also absolute nonsense.

And you speak sense?

Do you know your history? Border was made captain in 84’, and in those five years, guys like Waugh, Boon, Merv, and Taylor made their debuts.

When 89’ came around, they had grown experienced and come of age. Hence, runs at the top and the ability to take wickets with guys like Alderman who could swing the ball (“we found that if you just bowled straight at them, they would be LBW or bowled”.) prodigiously, and Lawson, being supported by Hughes and Waugh.

Allan Border was notoriously quiet and reluctant to become captain. He didn’t make speeches or use special man-management techniques. He was the only guy who was guaranteed a spot in the playing XI after Marsh, Lilliee, and Chappell retired. It just so happens that when he toured in 89, he was tired of losing consecutive Ashes and decided to actually BECOME captain but more importantly, his players had developed enough to perform better than an ENG side that was on its last legs.

(If he had adopted the same stance in the 87’ Ashes, it would have backfired because he did not have the talent to make use of the approach.)

Sound familiar? That’s because it was reversed in 05’. An ENG side who had a new captain, finally beat an AUS team on its last legs. Why? Because they had talent that was not developed in 03’ (Flintoff, Jones, Harminson, Giles) and an extraordinary new player (KP). They executed better (caught, batted at 4+ RPO, used mint for reverse swing) and had the talent to barely beat an ATG AUS side.

 

[ManFan]

No captain can win with poor players. That is a given - however, great leadership can prove to be the difference between a great player underperforming and fulfilling his potential.

Ishant Sharma was the butt of jokes under Dhoni with his career going nowhere. Under Kohli, he has become a different bowler altogether, and has proved himself to be one of the best Test pacers in the world under his leadership.

He is still the same bowler, but now he has a captain who can use his strengths effectively. That is the difference between leadership.

And he is only one example. I can go on and on and on.

As far as Shastri is concerned, the fact that some people are still clinging onto the “he is drunk all the time and does nothing” rubbish clearly shows that how stubborn some people can be and will cling onto their ignorance no matter what.

Shastri is a fantastic man manager. He understands his role really well and executes it to perfection. If you really think that he had no role in motivating the squad after the Adelaide debacle and Kohli’s departure, and played no role in conditioning the young players to deliver, you are clearly shying away from reality.

He planned out the bowling tactics with the bowling coach months in advance. He clearly does a lot more than sit around drink booze.

The difference between Arthur and Shastri is clear. Arthur will not win in Australia with a reserve Indian attack and neither will Shastri win in Australia with Pakistani bowling, but Shastri will not surrender home series to Sri Lanka and New Zealand with Pakistan like Arthur did in 2017-18, because he will have the intelligence to understand the importance of playing two specialist spinners in UAE conditions.

Shastri has been part of the team management that has won two Test series in Australia back to back and people think he is just a free-rider. Some people will hold onto what they believe in simply because they do not have the strength to admit that they were wrong.

Shastri will have the intelligence to do that because he is Asian and has grown up knowing how to use spinners. However, if Shastri had to coach SA, he would be like Arthur in the UAE, misguided and lost because pacers who rely on swing and seam are not predominant in Asia.

We’ll agree to disagree on Shastri.

As far as Kohli is concerned, I don’t think you understand that I agree with what you have to say about him.