Was Malcolm Marshall the most lethal paceman of them all?

[Adil_94]

Iam aware of that and I dont claim KD to be a ATG bowler. Nor is DKL a ATG bowler for reasons that I have explained in my previous posts. Most of these experts that you refer to will also turn a blind eye to this aspect of DKL career where he was only good in 3 Countries : Eng/Aus/NZ. None of them will give you a fair explanation for his reluctance to touring Asia. There will be excuses like those given by Robert.

If I were asked to choose between DKL and KD I would go for KD in a heart beat. A champion player and someone who played to entertain the crowds. He would never back down and whinge if the conditions were flat like DKL did. I wont even bring his Batting, Fielding and Captaincy where there is no comparison to be made between him and DKL.

Failing in Asia doesnt make him rubbish. He bowled on a lot of flat decks in Aus too he is seen as the prototype of a fast bowler. During his inital years he was an express tearaway quick who ripped through batting line ups. But after injury he lost pace and reinvented himself with seamers and cutters and more variations but being equally as deadly. Kapil was a very good workhorse but he was a trundler for the most part of his career. He never had DKs X factor. Kapil has mediocre records in Pak NZ Eng and SA but that doesnt mean he was rubbish. Ask any of their peers and they will all say DK was miles ahead of Kapil as a bowler. Yeah as an all-round cricketer Kapil offers more but as a bowler it's DK all the way.

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[Bilal7]

Iam aware of that and I dont claim KD to be a ATG bowler. Nor is DKL a ATG bowler for reasons that I have explained in my previous posts. Most of these experts that you refer to will also turn a blind eye to this aspect of DKL career where he was only good in 3 Countries : Eng/Aus/NZ. None of them will give you a fair explanation for his reluctance to touring Asia. There will be excuses like those given by Robert.

If I were asked to choose between DKL and KD I would go for KD in a heart beat. A champion player and someone who played to entertain the crowds. He would never back down and whinge if the conditions were flat like DKL did. I wont even bring his Batting, Fielding and Captaincy where there is no comparison to be made between him and DKL.

ATG all-rounders are generally more valuable than ATG pure bats or bowlers so you're right. Same reasoning why Imran Khan is the greatest cricketer from the subcon and not Sachin.

 

[MMHS]

Murali confirmed for poor because he never performed in the hardest conditions for off spinners.

Gaz is ATG

I think, Murali had a bad time in AUS in his first tour, but we know what was going against him. Since then, he never liked playing Test in AUS & the Aussie crowd never helped him to settle in a Test grounds. Probably that emotional detachment didn't help him in Test series in AUS. Also, he played 3 of his 5 Tests in AUS at WACA, Hobert & Brisben, not the best grounds for spinners during his time, though he was quite good in ODI there. His first 2 Tests was in '95-'96, when he was just settling Test cricket. During his golden period between 96 WC to 2007 WC, he played only a single Test in AUS, at SCG (for 6 wickets). Apart from that, he had performed any where in the world & performed great. I do agree his away performance wasn't similar to home, but that's due to him being phenomenal at home, not that 307 wickets in 60 Tests @ 27.79 (with 7, 10 wicket match, equal to career total of Lille). Muthia Muralitharan "never performed" in the hardest condition is a bit disrespectful for the best spinner ever.

Both Murali & Warne are among the best ever & it's not for us to judge who's better. Murali's overall away record is slightly inferior to Warne, that's mostly due to Warne playing so many matches in ENG & SAF, while Murali playing more in IND & PAK. He has a better record in ENG, WI & NZ, slightly inferior in SAF, but I must say Murali never had McGrath, Lee, McDermott or Gillespee bowling at other end. Often he had to bowl against settled openers whereas Warne almost always came to bowl at 2 or 3 down. ENG had been a spin bunny since the 80s & Shane was lucky to play 36 Tests (195 wickets at 23.25) against them; while Murali played ENG few & far between (112 @ 20.06 in 16 Tests). Surprisingly, his record in ENG in better at home against them or even his overall Home performance. British media always hypes their players or players who performed better against them (They indirectly try to prove through Football punditry, that Messi, CR, Zlatan, Suarez & Rooney are in "Similar" class. No issues, but they compare it on football merit, not on weekly wage) & Lille or Warne had always enjoyed the best recognition due to them constantly "screwing" the English.

During modern era, a spinners ultimate test was probably his performance against the Indians. During 90s & 00s, in Azhar, SR, Dravid, VVS, Laxman, Ganguly, Shidhu, Sehwag, Vinod Kambli, MS & Kiran More, IND had some of the all time best spin players. Murali's record against the Indians isn't that great, but stands out (105 wickets in 22 Tests, @ 32.61, 7 5fers & 2 10fers, SR of 67) against that of Warne (in 14 Tests, 43 wickets @ 47.18, with a single 5fer & SR of 91). Had Murali played a 5 Test series against the poms every alternate years, I believe, there won't have been much debate on who's the best ever spinner, at least in British media.

Would appreciate qualitative discussion on this, without any disrespect to those 2 great spinners.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Gavaskar faced Maco in the 1983/4 series in India (in which Maco comprehensively outbowled Roberts IIRC).

I do think that Maco was the best I ever saw. He was horribly quick and skiddy when he was young, and could move it both ways in the air and off the deck at pace little short of express as an older man.

Robert,would you rate Dennis Lillee above Malcolm Marshall in terms of completeness and all-round skill?What about Ray Lindwall or Andy Roberts?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Failing in Asia doesnt make him rubbish. He bowled on a lot of flat decks in Aus too he is seen as the prototype of a fast bowler. During his inital years he was an express tearaway quick who ripped through batting line ups. But after injury he lost pace and reinvented himself with seamers and cutters and more variations but being equally as deadly. Kapil was a very good workhorse but he was a trundler for the most part of his career. He never had DKs X factor. Kapil has mediocre records in Pak NZ Eng and SA but that doesnt mean he was rubbish. Ask any of their peers and they will all say DK was miles ahead of Kapil as a bowler. Yeah as an all-round cricketer Kapil offers more but as a bowler it's DK all the way.

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Never forget Lillee only played 3 tests on the sub-continent.How can you forget Lillee's great effort of 7-89 at the Oval in 1981 and 6-63 and 5-78 at Melbourne in 1979-80 v England on dead wickets.Lillee displayed mastery of the seam and obtained pace and swung the ball both ways.Lillee had mastery of the leg-cutter,ouswinger and slower ball which was a meance to batsmen on the most docile of tracks.

Kapil Dev ranks amongst the best of all medium-pace bowlers His 32 wickets v Pakistan at 17.68 average in 1979-80 was a phenomenal performance.His 7-56 and 4-90 at Madras was one of the best spells on a docile track.Never forget his 8-85 at Lahore in 1982-83.Kapil's outswinger was as good as that of any great paceman.He troubled the great Viv Richards a lot in the Carribean with his control of length and movement.Viv thought Kapil was one of the most difficult bowlers he ever faced.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Iam aware of that and I dont claim KD to be a ATG bowler. Nor is DKL a ATG bowler for reasons that I have explained in my previous posts. Most of these experts that you refer to will also turn a blind eye to this aspect of DKL career where he was only good in 3 Countries : Eng/Aus/NZ. None of them will give you a fair explanation for his reluctance to touring Asia. There will be excuses like those given by Robert.

If I were asked to choose between DKL and KD I would go for KD in a heart beat. A champion player and someone who played to entertain the crowds. He would never back down and whinge if the conditions were flat like DKL did. I wont even bring his Batting, Fielding and Captaincy where there is no comparison to be made between him and DKL.

Never forget Lillee only played 3 tests on the sub-continent.How can you forget Lillee's great effort of 7-89 at the Oval in 1981 and 6-63 and 5-78 at Melbourne in 1979-80 v England on dead wickets.Lillee displayed mastery of the seam and obtained pace and swung the ball both ways.Lillee had mastery of the leg-cutter,ouswinger and slower ball which was a meance to batsmen on the most docile of tracks.

 

[cricketfan11]

early to mid 90s waqar was the most lethal fast bowler ever seen

 

[Tusker]

Never forget Lillee only played 3 tests on the sub-continent.How can you forget Lillee's great effort of 7-89 at the Oval in 1981 and 6-63 and 5-78 at Melbourne in 1979-80 v England on dead wickets.Lillee displayed mastery of the seam and obtained pace and swung the ball both ways.Lillee had mastery of the leg-cutter,ouswinger and slower ball which was a meance to batsmen on the most docile of tracks.

Kapil has a friggin 9 wkt haul in Ahmedabad against West Indies, a 8 wkt haul against Pakistan in Lahore .... and too many more such exploits on absolute dead tracks that he played ( 86 tests in Asia ). Like I said there is simply no comparison to be made in this regard. Lillee would have died of exhaustion if he were to have played even half as many as Kapil did in conditions that exist in places like Kanpur, Ahmedabad , Madras, Kolkatta etc.

Also take a look at Kapil/DKL vs WI - the best team of that era ... kapil wins that contest hands down. Sorry you have no argument here.

 

[Hitman]

Malcolm Marshall, RIP!

I still remember vividly the 1999 World Cup in England. India didn't do well in that World Cup. But cricket is just a game. Even more devastating than that, we fans got to know about the great Malcolm Marshall being diagnosed with cancer at that time.

41 years of age is no age to die. Unfortunately, the great Malcolm Marshall passed away on the 4th of November, 1999. That's merely 7 months after the 1999 World Cup.

It was devastating for me and a lot of my friends. You just don't expect anyone to die of natural causes at the mere age of 41.

Would like to know of you posters who followed cricket back then, and what was your reaction?

 

[MenInG]

18th April was his birthday - another opportunity to remember this amazing fast bowler.

 

[Markhor]

No conversation about the greatest fast bowlers in Test history is complete without Malcolm Marshall. With the exception of New Zealand, Maco performed everywhere he toured. The only other fast bowler with such consistency across the board is Glenn McGrath. Here's his averages:

In Australia - 23.
In England - 18.
In India - 24.
In New Zealand - 32.
In Pakistan - 21.
In West Indies - 20.

 

[jeetu]

Majority of people who witnessed cricket from 1983 onwards would rate Marshall the greatest fast bowler ever. The havoc he created in 1983-84 India series is unparallel on Indian pitches. Its not easy to make a batsman like Gavaskar to drop the bat.

Lillee was first true modern bowler with exceptional skills.He was fast enough to shock Sobers with pace. The havoc Lillee caused in first few unofficial ROW XI in early 70's will probably go down as greatest bowling in unofficial series.

 

[Thomaskutty]

No conversation about the greatest fast bowlers in Test history is complete without Malcolm Marshall. With the exception of New Zealand, Maco performed everywhere he toured. The only other fast bowler with such consistency across the board is Glenn McGrath.

Steyn, Mcgrath and Malcolm ... three bowlers who have performed everywhere. They deserve to be in everybody's All-time XI.

 

[Junaids]

Marshall was the best of the best.

He is the Bradman of bowling.

Really quick, but he bowled a perfect length for his short size (only 2 inches taller than Hasan Ali and 4 inches taller than Musa Khan).

And he could swing and seam it both ways.

But above all, he had amazing intelligence - he could work out what to do quicker than any other bowler or skipper.

 

[MenInG]

He passed away on this day in 1999.

 

[MMHS]

Of all the pacers I have seen, probably the most intelligent pair was Marshall & Lillee. It was a torture for batsmen to face Marshall and guy could choke every scoring opportunities, still bowling attacking spells. The greatest, probably won't ever be removed from there as we are killing the skills of this game.

 

[MenInG]

Best bowling averages among bowlers with 300 or more Test wickets:

Marshall: 20.94
Ambrose: 20.99
Trueman: 21.57
McGrath: 21.64
Donald: 22.25

#OnThisDay 64 years ago, the great Malcolm Marshall was born.

 

[TheSultan]

Best bowling averages among bowlers with 300 or more Test wickets:

Marshall: 20.94
Ambrose: 20.99
Trueman: 21.57
McGrath: 21.64
Donald: 22.25

#OnThisDay 64 years ago, the great Malcolm Marshall was born.

Miggy sahb, do we also have the strike rates? I believe if you put both together it shows daylight between Marshall and the next in line

 

[Kaddy]

Malcolm Marshall, the greatest test fast bowler of all time.

RIP Legend.

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We remember the late great Malcolm Marshall, born on this day in 1958.<br><br> Maco took 376 wickets in 81 Tests. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MenInMaroon?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#MenInMaroon</a> <a href="https://t.co/K4OsAx3GeV">pic.twitter.com/K4OsAx3GeV</a></p>— Windies Cricket (@windiescricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/windiescricket/status/1648339520910249986?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 18, 2023</a></blockquote>
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