Was there any planning at all for this 2017/18 Ashes series by the English hierarchy?

[Savak]

I am still curious to understand from the Director of Cricket Operations Andrew Strauss, the coach Trevor Bayliss, the English captain Joe Root as to what exactly was the game plan for this tour and the conditions in which they were going to be playing in?

Did they seriously think picking line and length swing medium pacers were going to trouble the Australian batting? Did they seriously think Moen Ali was going to play the Graeme Swann role as the main spinner in Australia when historically Australian pitches have been difficult for the best of front line spinners?

Did they seriously think a nice humble polite guy like Joe Root has the leadership qualities needed to lift the spirit of the entire squad in difficult circumstances and on a tour of Australia? Is it wise to appoint a young captain who also happens to be your brightest upcoming batsman as your captain on such a tough tour?

What makes this whole series result inexcusable is that the English team was demolished like this in similar circumstances in 2013-14 and it is incredible that they turned up to Australia and ended up making the same mistakes again without any lesson learnt.

So many heads to roll ie Strauss, Bayliss, Cook, Broad, Anderson and Roots captaincy.

 

[Gilly]

No thats just cricket, you could have (probably did) said the same thing about Australia after their SL tour. Someone has to lose a series and when its an away tour it will probably be ugly. Its not the end of the world, this happens to all teams quite a bit.

 

[in_cutter]

I am still curious to understand from the Director of Cricket Operations Andrew Strauss, the coach Trevor Bayliss, the English captain Joe Root as to what exactly was the game plan for this tour and the conditions in which they were going to be playing in?

Did they seriously think picking line and length swing medium pacers were going to trouble the Australian batting? Did they seriously think Moen Ali was going to play the Graeme Swann role as the main spinner in Australia when historically Australian pitches have been difficult for the best of front line spinners?

Did they seriously think a nice humble polite guy like Joe Root has the leadership qualities needed to lift the spirit of the entire squad in difficult circumstances and on a tour of Australia? Is it wise to appoint a young captain who also happens to be your brightest upcoming batsman as your captain on such a tough tour?

What makes this whole series result inexcusable is that the English team was demolished like this in similar circumstances in 2013-14 and it is incredible that they turned up to Australia and ended up making the same mistakes again without any lesson learnt.

So many heads to roll ie Strauss, Bayliss, Cook, Broad, Anderson and Roots captaincy.

Eng main goal is to plan for the Ashes...the planning was there but not the execution.

 

[Convict]

England's stuck in a situation where they have some players who are no longer best eleven who they aren't dropping because of previous performance.

 

[Convict]

Australian selectors have won the Ashes. They made difficult and mocked calls at the time by dropping Renshaw, bringing in Paine from club cricket and bringing in the Marsh bros.

 

[the Great Khan]

The problem is the replacements. I don't see anything coming through that is going help this england team move forward. I think a period of mediocrity beckons. The funny thing is this aussie team has plenty of holes in it.

 

[Convict]

The problem is the replacements. I don't see anything coming through that is going help this england team move forward. I think a period of mediocrity beckons. The funny thing is this aussie team has plenty of holes in it.

You say that but Malan wouldn't have played if Stokes wasn't a thug. And Malan has been a success.

Australia has basically filled up holes by picking Paine from suburban club cricket and recycling the Marsh Bros. Sometimes all you need is somebody better than the player they are replacing.

England should stop thinking that Cook and Broad are the 150 test opener and the 390+ wicket taking bowlers and look at what they have produced in recent years - not much and nothing that couldn't be done by a younger guy.

 

[the Great Khan]

You say that but Malan wouldn't have played if Stokes wasn't a thug. And Malan has been a success.

Australia has basically filled up holes by picking Paine from suburban club cricket and recycling the Marsh Bros. Sometimes all you need is somebody better than the player they are replacing.

England should stop thinking that Cook and Broad are the 150 test opener and the 390+ wicket taking bowlers and look at what they have produced in recent years - not much and nothing that couldn't be done by a younger guy.

I think they need to rebuild and think ahead now. They have a really good lower middle order in stokes ali and bairstow, but the top order is looking like a disaster zone. Vince is not up to standard, stoneman is well mediocre, cook is looking past it and root just doesnt have the mental game to withstand real pressure..

as for the bowling, its criminal that england still havent found a good full time spinner. To continue to ask Moeen to pick up the burden is a disservice. He has been a brilliant cricketer and has improved immensely but they need a full time spinner. The fast bowling is looking really run down now.

 

[HitWicket]

You say that but Malan wouldn't have played if Stokes wasn't a thug. And Malan has been a success.

Australia has basically filled up holes by picking Paine from suburban club cricket and recycling the Marsh Bros. Sometimes all you need is somebody better than the player they are replacing.

England should stop thinking that Cook and Broad are the 150 test opener and the 390+ wicket taking bowlers and look at what they have produced in recent years - not much and nothing that couldn't be done by a younger guy.

Pretty sure if Stokes was available at the start of the series Malan would still have been in the XI.

 

[Convict]

Pretty sure if Stokes was available at the start of the series Malan would still have been in the XI.

Stokes would have batted at 5 and if Malan were going to open or bat at 3 ahead of Stoneman or Vince I can't say why he wouldn't have been opening or batting at 3 so far this series.

I think they need to rebuild and think ahead now. They have a really good lower middle order in stokes ali and bairstow, but the top order is looking like a disaster zone. Vince is not up to standard, stoneman is well mediocre, cook is looking past it and root just doesnt have the mental game to withstand real pressure..

as for the bowling, its criminal that england still havent found a good full time spinner. To continue to ask Moeen to pick up the burden is a disservice. He has been a brilliant cricketer and has improved immensely but they need a full time spinner. The fast bowling is looking really run down now.

Yeah. Its been very lazy by the selectors to depend on Ali so much. He is a good allrounder - contributes with bat and ball here but not a specialist at either.
Its just dumb to expect him to do the job that Lyon does for Australia. He should be supporting the specialist spinner but in the end they just picked some youngster for experience. I doubt Crane is the best spinner in England at the moment.

 

[prop558]

Both England & Australia are home ground bullies in Ashes.

Australia never won the Ashes on English soil since 2001. While England won the Ashes in Australia last time in 2010-11. So a very much same condition.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Both are home team bullies just like everyone bar SA. AUS at least competes better @ England.

 

[Convict]

Both England & Australia are home ground bullies in Ashes.

Australia never won the Ashes on English soil since 2001. While England won the Ashes in Australia last time in 2010-11. So a very much same condition.

Australia have never been whitewashed in England and were very, very competitive in 2005 and 2009.

 

[Markhor]

England's problem overseas is an inability to take 20 wickets when the ball isn't swinging. You need pace or quality spin and England have neither.

The reason for that is a failure of the English system. England haven't kept their genuinely quick bowlers fit - Mark Wood and Jamie Overton's careers have been littered with injury. There has been attempts to encourage spin by scrapping the toss but there still aren't any world class spinners on the circuit.

With the new franchise T20 competition, the County Championship schedule will be further pushed to the margins of the English season - April/May and September when conditions are ideal for fast medium line and length bowlers that'll dominate at home but struggle away.

So much money has been thrown at the Loughborough Academy and on consultants, but there's been little to show for it in results. The scattergun selection policies of Whittaker and Bayliss hasn't helped either, so I've little faith they'll adequately replace seniors like Cook and Broad if they're to be dropped.

 

[HitWicket]

Stokes would have batted at 5 and if Malan were going to open or bat at 3 ahead of Stoneman or Vince I can't say why he wouldn't have been opening or batting at 3 so far this series.

Na, if he'd been available I reckon we'd have started the series with a 6, 7, 8 of Stokes, Bairstow, Moeen as we did during the summer. Once Moeen had been seen as ineffective we'd probably have changed it up.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

England's stuck in a situation where they have some players who are no longer best eleven who they aren't dropping because of previous performance.

Exactly.

 

[Convict]

Na, if he'd been available I reckon we'd have started the series with a 6, 7, 8 of Stokes, Bairstow, Moeen as we did during the summer. Once Moeen had been seen as ineffective we'd probably have changed it up.

Fair you know a lot more about England than I do.

But I still think there is more talent in English cricket than people believe.

 

[Robert]

England's stuck in a situation where they have some players who are no longer best eleven who they aren't dropping because of previous performance.

You would have to ask who is better who can replace them.

Cook is at the end, I think. He got a 200 in the English summer but otherwise little in the last ten tests. Hameed would be in the mix but he had an awful County season.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

What about Jack Leach?

He is bowling legally and still picking wickets like crazy.

Why is he not selected?

Why keep complaining you have no spinners when you won't pick a spinner who has 11 5fers in 50 tests.

 

[HitWicket]

What about Jack Leach?

He is bowling legally and still picking wickets like crazy.

Why is he not selected?

Why keep complaining you have no spinners when you won't pick a spinner who has 11 5fers in 50 tests.

He's gone round the park practically every time he's played for an England representative side and it's worth noting his that his domestic stats are aided by regularly playing on turners at Taunton.

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

What about Jack Leach?

He is bowling legally and still picking wickets like crazy.

Why is he not selected?

Why keep complaining you have no spinners when you won't pick a spinner who has 11 5fers in 50 tests.

Who is Leach, when did he played for England ?

 

[pakistani pride]

How many test series has AUS lost at home in the last 20 years.

Thats your answer.

 

[Princejain191]

The thing with England is that whenever there was talk of 2013-14 Ashes, they concentrated on the spectre of Mitchell Johnson, and were completely oblivious to their own shortcomings. This time around, when the focus is not on a single bowler, they can clearly see how average their bowlers look in these conditions. There should be significant changes in their first class system now if they have to compete in Australia next time around. The gulf in bowling is ridiculous between the two teams in these conditions.

 

[Convict]

You would have to ask who is better who can replace them.

Cook is at the end, I think. He got a 200 in the English summer but otherwise little in the last ten tests. Hameed would be in the mix but he had an awful County season.

Perhaps but sometimes you just have to roll the dice on some of the youngsters.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Who is Leach, when did he played for England ?

Domestic legend.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

He's gone round the park practically every time he's played for an England representative side and it's worth noting his that his domestic stats are aided by regularly playing on turners at Taunton.

I saw him pick wickets on non turners this county season with subtle variations.

What's his stats on non-Taunton wickets?

On this tour, Gabba turned a bit. The 2nd test Adelaide too turned a bit. 3rd test was tough on spinners. You think Leach wouldn't have done better than Ali?

He's gone round the park practically every time he's played for an England representative side

Was he picked for these representative sides immediately after he corrected his action?

"Who is better than the current lot" is something that gets thrown out a lot and in 90% of the cases, it ends up being proven false.

I find it hard to believe that England have no better spinners than Moeen Ali (who is a batsman first).

 

[HitWicket]

I saw him pick wickets on non turners this county season with subtle variations.

What's his stats on non-Taunton wickets?

Pulled up these stats for you for the most reason county season :

Leach away from Taunton
7 games
16 wickets
Average 33.44
Economy 2.61

Leach at Taunton
7 games
35 wickets
Average 22.29
Economy 2.48

For comparisons sake the average of all spinners at Taunton this season other than Leach (including any part timers) 22.30.

On this tour, Gabba turned a bit. The 2nd test Adelaide too turned a bit. 3rd test was tough on spinners. You think Leach wouldn't have done better than Ali?

Given whilst Moeen was playing at the Gabba leach was playing just the other side of town against Queensland 2nd XI and came out with figures of 16 overs 1/96 getting completely outshone by 19 year old Surrey spinner Amar Virdi (18 overs 4/70) I have my doubts.

Was he picked for these representative sides immediately after he corrected his action?

He's played these representative games all over the place, from shortly after he corrected his action to in the last few weeks. These are his stats in all multi day games for the England lions :

7 games (4 in Asia)
13 wickets
Average 43.46
Economy 4.72

 

[Buffet]

Australia have never been whitewashed in England and were very, very competitive in 2005 and 2009.

I also think that Eng getting whitewashed in long series should be troublesome. Team should be able to fight and draw at least 1 test. Aus doesn't lose all tests in Eng.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Pulled up these stats for you for the most reason county season :

Leach away from Taunton
7 games
16 wickets
Average 33.44
Economy 2.61

Leach at Taunton
7 games
35 wickets
Average 22.29
Economy 2.48

For comparisons sake the average of all spinners at Taunton this season other than Leach (including any part timers) 22.30.



Given whilst Moeen was playing at the Gabba leach was playing just the other side of town against Queensland 2nd XI and came out with figures of 16 overs 1/96 getting completely outshone by 19 year old Surrey spinner Amar Virdi (18 overs 4/70) I have my doubts.



He's played these representative games all over the place, from shortly after he corrected his action to in the last few weeks. These are his stats in all multi day games for the England lions :

7 games (4 in Asia)
13 wickets
Average 43.46
Economy 4.72

Thank you for the wonderful response.

It's greatly appreciated.

Leach may or may not be the answer but the issue is that English system's thinking is all wrong. They have certain yardsticks and they declare bowlers' quality based on that.

Anomalies happen in cricket which is why you have selectors to judge players:

1. Steve O Keefe averages 22 in Aus domestic while Lyon averages 30s or maybe 40s. In many domestic games, Lyon has been clubbed like a part time bowler yet he did well in inetrnational cricket and now has improved by leaps and bounds and today, one can make the claim that he is the best spinner in the world on current form. It may or may not be the case down the road but the very fact Lyon is considered as one is a huge deal.

2. Yasir Shah was outbowled by quite a few spinners in county. But bring them all to UAE/Asia and I bet Yasir will outperform them by a million miles.

3. Ashwin in domestic Ranji after injury rehabilitation averaged 22 odd in first innings and 110 odd in 2nd innings and was smashed around like a club level bowler a couple of times (pathetic bowling in one of the games). His average in Ranji this year is 40. He was outbowled by a left armer in one of the county games too. Didn't Rashid and Moeen outbowl our spin duo in Rajkot? These things happen.

The point is that you have to see BEYOND STATS. Someone who can play a pivotal role in helping his county win games will have a different mindset to a spinner who considers himself as a mere support bowler.

Leach averages 33 with 2.5 rpo outside Taunton is a GREAT thing. The economy shows that he is keeping it tight in non turners and his average ain't too bad (English Maybe he is going to make it...maybe not. You have to bring him to tours, make him play warm ups and see.

Ok, if he is outbowled by some other bowler (which has happened to anyone), try and find out who is consistently outbowling him and fast track him.

You have to try these bowlers out, think long term and take action proactively.

But what did England do? Stuck with Moeen and Rashid with no one else even getting chances.

Then they complain about having no spinners. Well, if you don't give them a chance, even bowlers like Ashwin, Jaddu, Yasir would have struggled to come up the ranks in the English system.

 

[Saqs]

Australian selectors have won the Ashes. They made difficult and mocked calls at the time by dropping Renshaw, bringing in Paine from club cricket and bringing in the Marsh bros.

You still think Shaun has it in him?

Mitch? OK. Brings the all-rounder element.

Shaun shouldn't be anywhere near the international circuit. Who taught him how to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of...wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

 

[notAgainPlease]

England badly missed Stokes in middle order ....

 

[OmarKhan99]

To b honest, I don't see much wrong with the batting line-up of England. I believe it's the bowling that always releases the pressure and momentum they try to pile on. In the bowling department, it's high time they give notice to the seniors. I still remember the PakvsEng series back in 2016, where an extremely in-form Woakes was always the first change bowler and despite being the best fast bowler of the series (by miles) they always honoured Broad's seniority with the new ball. I think one thing that Aus has done, is that they went for in-form players and didn't look for just "promise", "talent" and "experience." Not picking Renshaw, Maxwell, Bird and Wade and picking in-form players was really the big difference. I believe Eng need to bring Wood ASAP in place of Broad. They should've picked Plunkett (could bring an allround element) as well, but since he isn't even there, Overton would be good enough. If Cook doesn't fire, bring in Keaton. He's vulnerable against swing but there won't be much in Aus.

 

[Robert]

Perhaps but sometimes you just have to roll the dice on some of the youngsters.

How many openers have failed to step up since Strauss retired... nine, ten?

 

[Saj]

About the same amount of planning as by PCB in their last few tours of Australia.

 

[James]

How many openers have failed to step up since Strauss retired... nine, ten?

To be fair Hameed looked good in India but has been out of form since he came back. He will be picked again soon.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

You say that but Malan wouldn't have played if Stokes wasn't a thug. And Malan has been a success.

Australia has basically filled up holes by picking Paine from suburban club cricket and recycling the Marsh Bros. Sometimes all you need is somebody better than the player they are replacing.

England should stop thinking that Cook and Broad are the 150 test opener and the 390+ wicket taking bowlers and look at what they have produced in recent years - not much and nothing that couldn't be done by a younger guy.

It's Anderson who's been useless outside England the last few years, not Broad.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

They are not spoiled for choice. Aside from Wood, this is their best attack and batting lineup.

 

[Convict]

It's Anderson who's been useless outside England the last few years, not Broad.

It's Broad who looks like the 2005 version of Gillespie right now.

 

[Savak]

About the same amount of planning as by PCB in their last few tours of Australia.

It doesn't help if the Pakistan team gets to tour after every 5-6 years. England goes every 2-3 years atleast

 

[giri26]

I think there aren't many things England could have done. Their bowling always relied on Anderson, Broad and Stokes and unfortunately one of them did not make it. Anderson has always struggled in Australia while Broad has been decent. The inexperienced trio of Vince, Stoneman and Malan have done way better than the experienced Cook and Root. Australia are always tough to beat at home and England struggle to compete away from home.

 

[Titan24]

You say that but Malan wouldn't have played if Stokes wasn't a thug. And Malan has been a success.

Australia has basically filled up holes by picking Paine from suburban club cricket and recycling the Marsh Bros. Sometimes all you need is somebody better than the player they are replacing.

England should stop thinking that Cook and Broad are the 150 test opener and the 390+ wicket taking bowlers and look at what they have produced in recent years - not much and nothing that couldn't be done by a younger guy.

Malan didnt replace Stokes, he was in the playing 11 even when Stokes was available.

Stokes' replacement was Jack Ball in the first match and Craig Overton in the nect two.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

It's Broad who looks like the 2005 version of Gillespie right now.

Yes, Broad's down on pace and clearly not at his best but his production has been better overseas. Anderson hasn't done jack apart from the pink ball spell either which could've been easily been Broad's spell on another day.

Broad needs a long rest, not retirement.

 

[Bilal7]

No need to be too hard on themselves. This is not the first time a team has been crushed in foreign conditions and certainly not the first time an English team has suffered this fate.

Rest the seniors for Melbourne and try out the bench. Perhaps they'll find a new star or two. Try to take some positives into the home season and then give back as good as they got.

 

[shane]

I think the best way to "plan" an Ashes series win in Australia is to insist that your players play in their domestic Sheffield Shield tournament. It is proobably no coincidence that Australia used to routinely beat England in England when there was a very large contingency of Aussies playing county cricket. The problem is that the Sheffield Shield only has six teams and they do not really play foreigners.

 

[Savak]

I think the best way to "plan" an Ashes series win in Australia is to insist that your players play in their domestic Sheffield Shield tournament. It is proobably no coincidence that Australia used to routinely beat England in England when there was a very large contingency of Aussies playing county cricket. The problem is that the Sheffield Shield only has six teams and they do not really play foreigners.

Draw lessons from how the 2010 English team won in Australia. England should insist on a series in South Africa first, then New Zealand and then Australia. Best possible preparation for a tour to Australia

 

[Markhor]

[MENTION=139981]HitWicket[/MENTION] - speaking of spinners, what's happened to Tom Craddock who played for Essex ? He took a 5-fer against a strong England batting lineup in 2013 in an Ashes warm-up.

He's 28 years old with an average of 30 yet only played 18 FC matches and got released.