Wasim Akram ensured Pakistan did not win any World Cup after 1992: Aamir Sohail

[marlonbrowndo]

Pakistan’s former captain Aamir Sohail, in an interview with a local TV channel on Monday, made a staggering claim by accusing legendary pacer Wasim Akram as the principal force who ensured that the Men in Green did not win any World Cup after their triumphant 1992 campaign.

The opening batsman claimed that till 2003 there was a concentrated campaign to promote Akram as captain before every World Cup, while discarding the captain who had led the side up until that point

“It’s very simple. Put the 92 World Cup to one side and talk about the 1996 World Cup. In 1995 Ramiz Raja was captain. Saleem Malik was the captain before that, he was very successful and if he could have spent one more year as captain then Wasim Akram would not have been leading the side,” said Sohail.

If you look at what happened till 2003, there was this persistence before every World Cup to remove the captain and put Wasim Akram in that role,” he claimed.

Sohail lashed out at Akram by stating that his biggest contribution to Pakistan cricket was by ensuring that 1992 was the only time the country came out victorious in a World Cup.

“Look, the biggest contribution by Wasim Akram for Pakistan cricket was making sure Pakistan does not win a World Cup after 92. Imran Khan should be very grateful to him and he is by awarding him the presidential award. If he [Akram] was sincere with Pakistan, we would have easily won the 96, 99 and 2003 World Cups. All of this drama happened for a reason. This should be investigated. The culprit behind all this should be brought to the forefront,” he concluded.

The 53-year-old opener had a long and illustrious career having represented the Men in Green in 47 Tests and 156 One-Day Internationals (ODIs), scoring 2823 runs and 4780 runs, respectively

https://cricketpakistan.com.pk/en/n...tan-did-not-win-any-world-cup-after-1992-aami

 

[MenInG]

Seems Wasim Akram is the flavour of the Month/Day/Hour/Second....

 

[Slog]

lol wth

Wasim may have done intrigues to get captaincy but who didn't but this is sth else

If anyone lost the 1996 WC, it was Amir Sohail with his hotheadedness in the 1996 QF

 

[Bhaijaan]

He won Pakistan their only 50 over world cup with his twin wickets that turned the match on its head. Give him some respect bro.

I like AS. He's generally one of the most down to earth ex Pakistani players off the field and a great analyst but damn man the grudges within that 1990s Pakistan team are so deep these guys are at it even now in their 50s

Those days are long gone guys.

Cherish what you had rather than what you didn't have.

 

[Usman Chadda]

This is getting ridiculous now. What's the point of bringing up all of this now? Ex-players point scoring just for a bit of airtime, rather than contribute constructively to our cricket.

Amir Sohail was one of the main reasons we dropped that QF to India. Had he not gone gung-ho on Prasad and lost his wicket, we would have won.

 

[Bhaijaan]

I think there's just a lot of jealousy when it comes to Wasim. He was a huge star in the 1990s. After Sachin who was in a different sphere of stardum altogether, you had Wasim at #2 probably ahead of Warne and even Lara I would say. People just hate his popularity and connections

 

[MMHS]

What is going on here!!!! Have these people lost their mind? It’s just the start of summer and who knows how long this lock down will continue- someone needs to gag some loose mouths otherwise these verbal brawls will end up physical. Imran must be too busy for such shallow things but his gentleman chairman at PCB and his information minister needs to act upon here, in there use these people are basically washing PAK’s image as a major cricket nation.

Wasim Akram had “issues” and it’s open secret - I myself wrote few times; but this guy Amir Sohail kept silent for entire period when he had the hope of making it in to PCT or later in a paid job in PCB, now that Wasim Khan is trying to reduce charity at PCB’s expense, air is hotting up by every day.

 

[Savak]

I like this, even in the lockdown Pakistan Cricket never stops entertaining.

 

[Hawkeye]

These are just some bitter ex-cricketers, who had nothing significant to contribute to the team anyway and were dropped. And not given much recognition.

So, they're taking out that anger now.

 

[Savak]

These are just some bitter ex-cricketers, who had nothing significant to contribute to the team anyway and were dropped. And not given much recognition.

So, they're taking out that anger now.

This is the problem with Pakistan and the fans. The words and value of a legendary player carries more weight than the testimony of non legendary players even if they are telling the truth. This is why Wasim Akram got away with the Qayyum inquiry report in 2000.

 

[Markhor]

I think there's just a lot of jealousy when it comes to Wasim. He was a huge star in the 1990s. After Sachin who was in a different sphere of stardum altogether, you had Wasim at #2 probably ahead of Warne and even Lara I would say. People just hate his popularity and connections

Nah, Wasim was toxic in the 90s. A big time politician.

It's crazy to think now because he's so damn charming, humble and likeable when you see him make public appearances - his after dinner speeches are hilarious.

But he and the other senior players were out of control in the 90s, and the Board kept kowtowing to them, hence why we underachieved.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I'm grateful for everything Wasim has achieved for Pakistan but I will never forgive him for Bangalore 1996. Yeah sorry, I don't believe he was injured.

But Aamer Sohail should be the last one saying something like this after the way in which he made a fool of himself in the quarter-final, and basically ensured Pakistan's ticket back home was punched.

 

[Hawkeye]

This is the problem with Pakistan and the fans. The words and value of a legendary player carries more weight than the testimony of non legendary players even if they are telling the truth. This is why Wasim Akram got away with the Qayyum inquiry report in 2000.

Um, this is just one's word against the other.

There's no proof, no evidence, and all our ex-cricketers have a screw loose, they're big time conspiracy theorists, plus hold huge grudges for things like getting dropped.

MoYo is one recent example. Sarfraz Nawaz and Amir Sohail another.

Basit another one.

You don't take any of them seriously. They're mentally on another planet.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Nah, Wasim was toxic in the 90s. A big time politician.

It's crazy to think now because he's so damn charming, humble and likeable when you see him make public appearances - his after dinner speeches are hilarious.

But he and the other senior players were out of control in the 90s, and the Board kept kowtowing to them, hence why we underachieved.

It's such a shame because Wasim was always the heir apparent to Imran's throne. He could have been a real leader that the team needed. Instead he was more interested in politicking, feuding with Waqar, other activities that many people are fully aware of. In the end Pakistan cricket suffered.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Um, this is just one's word against the other.

There's no proof, no evidence, and all our ex-cricketers have a screw loose, they're big time conspiracy theorists, plus hold huge grudges for things like getting dropped.

MoYo is one recent example. Sarfraz Nawaz and Amir Sohail another.

Basit another one.

You don't take any of them seriously. They're mentally on another planet.

Allegations against Wasim are fairly serious. Not all were made by conspiracy theorists out to destroy him. Though there was never hard evidence against him there are a number of things that just don't add up. You are naive to think Wasim was an angel. In 1993, he, Waqar, Aqib and Mustaq were caught on a beach in Grenada with possession of drugs. There was another incident I can't fully recall...

 

[Abid Z]

lol wth

Wasim may have done intrigues to get captaincy but who didn't but this is sth else

If anyone lost the 1996 WC, it was Amir Sohail with his hotheadedness in the 1996 QF

Not exactly. The bowling was atrocious. Jadeja gave a walloping to waqar that still brings tears to the eye.

 

[Zaz]

Not exactly. The bowling was atrocious. Jadeja gave a walloping to waqar that still brings tears to the eye.

Pakistan were on course to win the game before sohail lost his head

Anyway back to the point This has got to stop These guys are making themselves and pakistan cricket look silly Havent they got anything better to do than fight ans theow dirt around?

 

[Savak]

When ones name ie Wasim Akram, Salim Malik comes up in the match fixing circles numerous times, you know there is no smoke without fire

 

[Bigboii]

Allegations against Wasim are fairly serious. Not all were made by conspiracy theorists out to destroy him. Though there was never hard evidence against him there are a number of things that just don't add up. You are naive to think Wasim was an angel. In 1993, he, Waqar, Aqib and Mustaq were caught on a beach in Grenada with possession of drugs. There was another incident I can't fully recall...

c'mon it was weed you are making it sound like they were shooting heroine in their arms

 

[Hawkeye]

Allegations against Wasim are fairly serious. Not all were made by conspiracy theorists out to destroy him. Though there was never hard evidence against him there are a number of things that just don't add up. You are naive to think Wasim was an angel. In 1993, he, Waqar, Aqib and Mustaq were caught on a beach in Grenada with possession of drugs. There was another incident I can't fully recall...

Nothing wrong in enjoying your personal life.

Don't try to mix the two things, because they're not the same.

Not a single evidence or proof, except some conspiracy theories by the hot-headed bitter ex-cricketers, who keep changing their stories or come up with a new one after every other year being neglected.

Here it's Amir Sohail again, who himself lost us the 96 match as being stated above.

Wasim won us countless.

 

[AAli98]

Sohail & Anwar got pak 110/0 of 11 overs in 96 quarter final if the rest of the fixers couldn’t get 188 of 40 overs then....

 

[Slog]

Not exactly. The bowling was atrocious. Jadeja gave a walloping to waqar that still brings tears to the eye.

yea that hurt a lot but Pak were still 100+ for 1 going at about 7 an over before Sohail lost his mind

 

[Mueez]

Poor Wasim.

Fact is that Wasim has achieved more things than these ex-cricketers have achieved in their whole lifetime...

 

[Savak]

Nothing wrong in enjoying your personal life.

Don't try to mix the two things, because they're not the same.

Not a single evidence or proof, except some conspiracy theories by the hot-headed bitter ex-cricketers, who keep changing their stories or come up with a new one after every other year being neglected.

Here it's Amir Sohail again, who himself lost us the 96 match as being stated above.

Wasim won us countless.

Again just because a player is a legend and has won us countless matches, he should be forgiven.

 

[u0sama]

He should rather curse his non sense shot against Prasad in quarter finals, Pak was way ahead in that match until his stupidity.

 

[Hawkeye]

Again just because a player is a legend and has won us countless matches, he should be forgiven.

No. But what Amir is saying is rubbish. He himself lost us the 96 match.

Wasim didn't lose us any, or deliberately. If he did, bring evidence.

 

[Watsupdoc]

What’s up with all these past players coming out now and acting against ?

 

[Bewal Express]

The only truth is that we don't what the truth is. We have a whole generation of talented guys who hated each other, very suspicious of each other and never took responsibility for anything. AS was a poor captain and his unforgivable brain **** in the 96 WC at Banglore was one of the reasons we didn't win any WC since then. I am embarrassed that these pathetic individuals represented PK

 

[Slog]

also if Wasim was faking the injury to fix he would have obviously have played the match to have control over the result and be able to impact it.

 

[Bewal Express]

also if Wasim was faking the injury to fix he would have obviously have played the match to have control over the result and be able to impact it.

WA hadn't bowled well in the WC in 96 and as you say, why would a fixer not play to fix the game.

 

[Junaids]

Um, this is just one's word against the other.

There's no proof, no evidence, and all our ex-cricketers have a screw loose, they're big time conspiracy theorists, plus hold huge grudges for things like getting dropped.

MoYo is one recent example. Sarfraz Nawaz and Amir Sohail another.

Basit another one.

You don't take any of them seriously. They're mentally on another planet.

I respect your point of view, but I disagree here.

Certain superstars took bribes in the period covered to enrich themselves at the cost of the team and its supporters. I watched every second of the 1999 Australia v Pakistan Test at Brisbane, and I think that key moments of that and the following Test at Hobart were deliberately lost too.

Most of the accessories to this are comfortable and don't want to rock the boat. The perpetrators rely on the others enjoying their prosperity and good reputation.

Everyone knows the story of a certain Pakistan cricketer becoming religious after a dreadful bereavement. But I have often wondered whether that is linked to guilt about what he had already done and was ultimately convicted of.

You say don't take these people seriously. But actually, Aamir Sohail and Rashid Latif constitute 50% of the clean players from that period! if we ignore them, we choose to remain in the dark.

 

[Technics 1210]

Amir Sohail is refering to match fixing. Justice Qayum report incase anyone missed it.

 

[Watsupdoc]

It’s just screen time they are looking for I think. Even if there might be some element of truth to this, but should have come out earlier and spoken about this. Speaking now is just not credible.

 

[Junaids]

It’s just screen time they are looking for I think. Even if there might be some element of truth to this, but should have come out earlier and spoken about this. Speaking now is just not credible.

I think that's a bit strong.

Both Hansie Cronje and Bob Woolmer ended up dead in suspicious circumstances. Woolmer's death may have been by natural causes, but Cronje's was in my mind 100% certainly by the same people and the same MO which killed Samora Machel.

https://mondediplo.com/2017/11/12Machel

Who would speak out in those circumstances? You would have to be a madman to take the risk.

 

[Bewal Express]

yea he had taken 1 wicket.

also he hadn't bowl in the prior match v NZ due to injury either.

Just looked short of sharpness in the whole WC, I remember when SA took him and Waqar to the cleaners in Karachi. If WA had played that game at Banglore when he wasn't fit, all those guys accusing him of fixing today, would still be accusing of fixing by playing when he wasn't fit.
I do know that the WC final in 99 wasn't fixed. He did the right thing by batting 1st, like we did at Headingly in the group stages and won and even with an awful total, if we took an early wicket, we might still have been in the game. History books won't show you that the biggest reason was Saeeds Anwars failure to change his grip batting quickly enough, which led to the crowd getting restless, which resulted in him losing concentration and getting out.

 

[Forward Defensive Push]

Ridiculous bitterness. The man won us the only World Cup we ever laid our hands on.. show some respect!

1996 - we all know who lost the quarter final single handedly when we were well placed to win the match...

1999 - team did reach the final but just completely collapsed under pressure.. not Wasim’s fault

2003 - how did you ever think any other team than Australia could have won it? Either you are foolish or delusional.

 

[Ab Fan]

That is basically what happens when you are at your home for more than a month, nowhere to go and perhaps nothing much to do either lol.

 

[Slim]

Not sure why people are blaming Sohail for 1996 when rest of the team couldnt chase a meagre total after getting an insane head start at a RR of 10.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Where there is smoke, there was fire. This guy played a lot of politics and got away with it because of his stature.

 

[MMHS]

I still don’t know why PCT with County players in it and with the UK based support staffs (Mushtaq Mo, Pybas) would opt to bat first in a 10 am start Lord’s game in mid June. On top of that, there was probably a slight delay in start for wet outfield after over night showers and the toss took place under gloomy sky. And, Aussies had Mac, Fleming, Riffle & Moody to bowl seemers on that track!!!!!!

Australia were the better team and were going through a tremendous run which saw them avoiding defeat in seven consecutive elimination games (for them), winning six of those on way to final. Probably, they still would have won (that gap was shamefully one sided for a WC final - like 8 wickets and 29 overs), but not sure why PAK should bat first, specially considering that they won the SF comprehensively against a very good Kiwi side, batting second on a similar track but under sunny sky at Old Trafford. When there is cloud around, you avoid batting in UK - it’s universally accepted; weather forecast also suggested a clearing sky later in the day.

 

[Bewal Express]

Not sure why people are blaming Sohail for 1996 when rest of the team couldnt chase a meagre total after getting an insane head start at a RR of 10.

It's not that he got out, it's the way the he got out. He was the biggest culprit but an ageing and slow Miandad batted like he was constiptated. Inzi falling asleep at the crease just like he did 4 years later at Old Trafford were also awful.

 

[Bewal Express]

I still don’t know why PCT with County players in it and with the UK based support staffs (Mushtaq Mo, Pybas) would opt to bat first in a 10 am start Lord’s game in mid June. On top of that, there was probably a slight delay in start for wet outfield after over night showers and the toss took place under gloomy sky. And, Aussies had Mac, Fleming, Riffle & Moody to bowl seemers on that track!!!!!!

Australia were the better team and were going through a tremendous run which saw them avoiding defeat in seven consecutive elimination games (for them), winning six of those on way to final. Probably, they still would have won (that gap was shamefully one sided for a WC final - like 8 wickets and 29 overs), but not sure why PAK should bat first, specially considering that they won the SF comprehensively against a very good Kiwi side, batting second on a similar track but under sunny sky at Old Trafford. When there is cloud around, you avoid batting in UK - it’s universally accepted; weather forecast also suggested a clearing sky later in the day.

Did you actually watch the game? We batted 1st Headingly in worse conditions and won by putting a total on the board.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

Not sure if wasim akram has any input into Pakistan cricket since 1999
Hes only ever been asked to come and do 121s u like waqar younis who has had role after role

 

[MMHS]

Did you actually watch the game? We batted 1st Headingly in worse conditions and won by putting a total on the board.

I do watch a bit of game. PAK won the Leeds game after being put in - but not everyday you score 108 in last 10 overs against Aussies and not every day you get Gilchrist in first over. After all this, the gap was 10 runs. It’s a bit flawed logic that once something unconventional happened, you expect a repeat of that.

By any logic, you can’t justify batting first at Lord’s that morning and Waugh actually mentioned that he would have bowled too, despite losing the Leeds game. And, I am not sure why the condition at Leeds was worse - it was equally gloomy, but that game was played under cloud for almost entire duration, Aussies also batted under cloud mostly. At Lord’s, the forecast was clearing sky and Aussies did bat under sun (would have done under brighter lights had PAK lasted more than 39 overs and put a decent total).

 

[Bewal Express]

I do watch a bit of game. PAK won the Leeds game after being put in - but not everyday you score 108 in last 10 overs against Aussies and not every day you get Gilchrist in first over. After all this, the gap was 10 runs. It’s a bit flawed logic that once something unconventional happened, you expect a repeat of that.

By any logic, you can’t justify batting first at Lord’s that morning and Waugh actually mentioned that he would have bowled too, despite losing the Leeds game. And, I am not sure why the condition at Leeds was worse - it was equally gloomy, but that game was played under cloud for almost entire duration, Aussies also batted under cloud mostly. At Lord’s, the forecast was clearing sky and Aussies did bat under sun (would have done under brighter lights had PAK lasted more than 39 overs and put a decent total).

PK have always won crunch games when they bat 1st.For example the 92 WC and CT final more recently. We Can't chase for Toffee against decent bowling lineups and this nonsense that batting 1st lost the game shows a total lack of understanding of pressure and particularly how we react to pressure. For example in last WC, the decision to put Ind in those conditions was probably right but we were never in the game once India got over 250.
Did you watch the whole game live or not?

 

[MMHS]

PK have always won crunch games when they bat 1st.For example the 92 WC and CT final more recently. We Can't chase for Toffee against decent bowling lineups and this nonsense that batting 1st lost the game shows a total lack of understanding of pressure and particularly how we react to pressure. For example in last WC, the decision to put Ind in those conditions was probably right but we were never in the game once India got over 250.
Did you watch the whole game live or not?

I lost interest after Pakistan’s batting effort.

But, I actually now am not sure how much you watched PAK’s game to talk about how PAK reacts under pressure, specially with words like “always”.

Remember, you are dealing with someone watched PAK chasing a SF against Lloyd’s WIN in WSC 1985; a last ball six winner against India in 1986, 273 at WACA under lights in 1987 against Aussies and their umpires, chased another SF in Neheru Cup 1989 - 180+ in 30 overs, 275+ against that WIN in final, the SF of 1992 WC and the SF of 2017 CT as well.

You see, you are dealing with an awkward customer here - for your next response, I suggest, choose words carefully.

 

[Mueez]

PK have always won crunch games when they bat 1st.For example the 92 WC and CT final more recently. We Can't chase for Toffee against decent bowling lineups and this nonsense that batting 1st lost the game shows a total lack of understanding of pressure and particularly how we react to pressure. For example in last WC, the decision to put Ind in those conditions was probably right but we were never in the game once India got over 250.
Did you watch the whole game live or not?

Couldn’t agree more.

Pakistan plays better when they are batting first as there is no pressure.

We witnessed that during CT final and more recently during the WC match against England.

 

[Slim]

It's not that he got out, it's the way the he got out. He was the biggest culprit but an ageing and slow Miandad batted like he was constiptated. Inzi falling asleep at the crease just like he did 4 years later at Old Trafford were also awful.

It was a pretty weird match.

India Innings
Pakistan's 1st match in India since the Nehru Cup final in November 1989.
1st match under floodlights at the Chinnaswamy Stadium.
India scored 57 runs in the final 4 overs, including 22 off a Waqar Younis over.
Waqar Younis 200 wickets in ODIs.
India innings: 1x5 ball over (47th over, Aaqib Javed 9th over, called by umpire SA Bucknor)
Pakistan was fined 1 over for a slow over rate
Pakistan Innings
Pakistan 84 in the opening 10 overs
Javed Miandad's final ODI.
Pakistan's 1st loss against India since the 1992 World Cup, 1st loss against India in India since March 1987 (Scores were level, awarded to India for losing fewer wickets).

 

[Bewal Express]

It was a pretty weird match.

India Innings
Pakistan's 1st match in India since the Nehru Cup final in November 1989.
1st match under floodlights at the Chinnaswamy Stadium.
India scored 57 runs in the final 4 overs, including 22 off a Waqar Younis over.
Waqar Younis 200 wickets in ODIs.
India innings: 1x5 ball over (47th over, Aaqib Javed 9th over, called by umpire SA Bucknor)
Pakistan was fined 1 over for a slow over rate
Pakistan Innings
Pakistan 84 in the opening 10 overs
Javed Miandad's final ODI.
Pakistan's 1st loss against India since the 1992 World Cup, 1st loss against India in India since March 1987 (Scores were level, awarded to India for losing fewer wickets).

A poor Ind team should never have beaten PK but as has been the case in our matches in the WCs, we wilted under pressure.

 

[Bewal Express]

I lost interest after Pakistan’s batting effort.

But, I actually now am not sure how much you watched PAK’s game to talk about how PAK reacts under pressure, specially with words like “always”.

Remember, you are dealing with someone watched PAK chasing a SF against Lloyd’s WIN in WSC 1985; a last ball six winner against India in 1986, 273 at WACA under lights in 1987 against Aussies and their umpires, chased another SF in Neheru Cup 1989 - 180+ in 30 overs, 275+ against that WIN in final, the SF of 1992 WC and the SF of 2017 CT as well.

You see, you are dealing with an awkward customer here - for your next response, I suggest, choose words carefully.

All the games you mentioned are not epoch defining games, they were important at the time but few if anyone on here will know they were played never mind we won them. No, we are poor chasers in big games. Did you watch the SF in 87 at home in Lahore, an average Aussie team team beat one of better teams, or we lost all the games to Ind when batting 2nd in WCs, which are like a WC final. We don't handle pressure well in crunch games.

 

[BoomBoomCricket]

Aamir Sohail has become a bit of a billy no mates in Pakistan Cricket.

He is not liked by the 1992 WC winning team.

Didn't get an invite to Imran Khan's oath taking.

Ramiz doesn't like him.
Neither does Wasim.
Neither does Imran.

Been critical of Mushtaq Ahmed, but he is the type who happily forgives and even appeared on his show when he was anchoring in 2014.

Don't think Waqar likes him too much either.

He is on decent terms with Javed Miandad though when they worked together for Samaa.

 

[MMHS]

PK have always won crunch games when they bat 1st.For example the 92 WC and CT final more recently. We Can't chase for Toffee against decent bowling lineups and this nonsense that batting 1st lost the game shows a total lack of understanding of pressure and particularly how we react to pressure. For example in last WC, the decision to put Ind in those conditions was probably right but we were never in the game once India got over 250.
Did you watch the whole game live or not?

Never mind.

Probably you guys have started watching PAK cricket when winning key matches are like upsets for PAK - I started watching in a bit different era. It’s true that it’s easier to win defending a total than chasing for an underdog - you put a total and then expect opponents will fail to chase it, it takes ten balls to win a game if you have a score on board. I have actually watched PAK cricket when it was not and underdog against anyone - not even Lloyd’s WIN or Border/Taylor/Waugh’s Australia, in Australia - you can check the stats for a feel good (you might not have seen those days, might not see ever either): till 2002, the H2H with Australia was like 16/16, and more of those games played in Australia.

The myth that PAK defends well and chases poor was established in 1990s by people who are slinging mud to each other these days; because it’s easier to script games batting second - you concede a total (if required drop couple of sitters), then couple of poor shots, may be a bit timely slow batting, one odd run out..... basically you are making a 200 target like 250, enough for most teams to defend in 1990s. It’s very easy to explain that also - got under pressure, Cricket didn’t want us to win today, luck wasn’t there, we made critical mistakes ....... and I have seen at least 10-12 of those games live - in UAE, in Morocco, in SAF, in Canada ......

PAK defends well is another myth - if you win one out of 4/5 games, doesn’t matter you are batting first or second - basically team is not good to compete at higher level. In last WC, against that Indian & ENG game, I can also mention the WIN game on a belter or the NZ game on a turner. And this myth wasn’t true even in 1990s, when PAK did have bowlers. I have seen PAK attack conceding twice world record chases by my own eyes - first one from VIP stand, 50 metres away from players - 314 against India at Dhaka (‘98) and 315 at Lahore ‘98, when Ponting & Gilchrist toyed with much vaunted PAK attack. On contrary, I have seen also PAK chasing 264 on a 3rd day wicket at Toronto against the best ever Indian attack before current lot.

In a standard game, when conditions are more or less similar throughout - teams can opt to bat or field based on their comfort level. Like now Poms will chase because of batting depth, but Indians would like to defend for top order batting and spin attack. Lloyd used to bowl first always and it cost him a WC, Cronje used to bat first because of his fielding unit that would have added 10-12% at least to his total - but that cost him an WC as well - could have eliminated Aussies in 1999 before SF .... and I am sure both would have done the same if they were given a second chance; because that was their core strategy, comfort zone and they didn’t lose because of the call at toss, opponents just played better that particular day.

But, that’s when the playing condition is roughly same, you stick to your play book. When the condition is massively favouring one side of batting of bowling first, you have to take judgemental calls. That’s why, many captains opts for chasing in D/N game despite clear light advantages in batting first - it’s a trade off between poor light/used track vs night dew. That Lord’s morning was crying for bowling first - with Wasim, Shoaib, Saq, backed by Razzak & Mahmood, PAK’s attack in any case in UK early summer was more suitable for bowling first and use the fresh wicket, particularly when in that WC they didn’t use D/N games.

I hope, now you are convinced that I do watch the game a bit.

 

[Slim]

Aamir Sohail has become a bit of a billy no mates in Pakistan Cricket.

He is not liked by the 1992 WC winning team.

Didn't get an invite to Imran Khan's oath taking.

Ramiz doesn't like him.
Neither does Wasim.
Neither does Imran.

Been critical of Mushtaq Ahmed, but he is the type who happily forgives and even appeared on his show when he was anchoring in 2014.

Don't think Waqar likes him too much either.

He is on decent terms with Javed Miandad though when they worked together for Samaa.

I get him. He sees through the ******** and prolly cannot do fake nice.

 

[MMHS]

All the games you mentioned are not epoch defining games, they were important at the time but few if anyone on here will know they were played never mind we won them. No, we are poor chasers in big games. Did you watch the SF in 87 at home in Lahore, an average Aussie team team beat one of better teams, or we lost all the games to Ind when batting 2nd in WCs, which are like a WC final. We don't handle pressure well in crunch games.

Bro, you are exposing your age - better leave it. You have absolutely no clue about what happened in that 1987 WC SF - at least could have checked CricInfo. Let me summarise it for you -

First of all, PAK made a blunder in selection - should have played Mansoor Elahi instead of Jafar - it was his last over that went for 18, the margin. Then, PAK started with an absolute disaster - WK Yousuf got injured inside few overs and Bade Mian had to keep, something he didn’t do after 1970s. It affected the entire bowling plan - pacers had to bowl cautiously, Imran tried to contain Aussies rather than going for the kill with pace .... still 34/35 extras were conceded (again ironically the gap of extras was 18, both sides matched scores with bat). Still, below 270 was within PAK’s reach.

Now come batting - it started with a bigger disaster, Rambo Raja was the man in form for that WC and he was shot in first over by his useless partner Mansoor, who managed to get himself castled very next over of a straight one from McDermott. Still, Imran - Javed took the game to even keel until an umpiring bowler got Imran out to first ball of part-timer Border. Ironically, AB got his counterpart Gooch also in the Final with first ball and same way - C Dayer, B Border. Even then, Yousuf and AQadir were pulling a miracle - after 48’5 overs, scores were level : Aussies 249/8, PAK 249/9. Next ball, Tim May survived for Waugh to cash on Jafar for 18..... Tauseef got out to CJ’s lady ball of the game.

I told you - I do watch game, and you guys will be astonished if I disclose my memory test scores ......,.

 

[Bewal Express]

Bro, you are exposing your age - better leave it. You have absolutely no clue about what happened in that 1987 WC SF - at least could have checked CricInfo. Let me summarise it for you -

First of all, PAK made a blunder in selection - should have played Mansoor Elahi instead of Jafar - it was his last over that went for 18, the margin. Then, PAK started with an absolute disaster - WK Yousuf got injured inside few overs and Bade Mian had to keep, something he didn’t do after 1970s. It affected the entire bowling plan - pacers had to bowl cautiously, Imran tried to contain Aussies rather than going for the kill with pace .... still 34/35 extras were conceded (again ironically the gap of extras was 18, both sides matched scores with bat). Still, below 270 was within PAK’s reach.

Now come batting - it started with a bigger disaster, Rambo Raja was the man in form for that WC and he was shot in first over by his useless partner Mansoor, who managed to get himself castled very next over of a straight one from McDermott. Still, Imran - Javed took the game to even keel until an umpiring bowler got Imran out to first ball of part-timer Border. Ironically, AB got his counterpart Gooch also in the Final with first ball and same way - C Dayer, B Border. Even then, Yousuf and AQadir were pulling a miracle - after 48’5 overs, scores were level : Aussies 249/8, PAK 249/9. Next ball, Tim May survived for Waugh to cash on Jafar for 18..... Tauseef got out to CJ’s lady ball of the game.

I told you - I do watch game, and you guys will be astonished if I disclose my memory test scores ......,.

So we should have played Elahi bowling at 75mph over Jaffar, a guy that had done well upto that point. Thank god you werent a selector. The 270 the Aussies wasnt the problem, it was the fact that under pressure these guys wilted and despite what the score suggests, the game was never that close at the end. We lost chasing in a big game, and that has been the case in most CRUNCH games in WCs

 

[Bewal Express]

Never mind.

Probably you guys have started watching PAK cricket when winning key matches are like upsets for PAK - I started watching in a bit different era. It’s true that it’s easier to win defending a total than chasing for an underdog - you put a total and then expect opponents will fail to chase it, it takes ten balls to win a game if you have a score on board. I have actually watched PAK cricket when it was not and underdog against anyone - not even Lloyd’s WIN or Border/Taylor/Waugh’s Australia, in Australia - you can check the stats for a feel good (you might not have seen those days, might not see ever either): till 2002, the H2H with Australia was like 16/16, and more of those games played in Australia.

The myth that PAK defends well and chases poor was established in 1990s by people who are slinging mud to each other these days; because it’s easier to script games batting second - you concede a total (if required drop couple of sitters), then couple of poor shots, may be a bit timely slow batting, one odd run out..... basically you are making a 200 target like 250, enough for most teams to defend in 1990s. It’s very easy to explain that also - got under pressure, Cricket didn’t want us to win today, luck wasn’t there, we made critical mistakes ....... and I have seen at least 10-12 of those games live - in UAE, in Morocco, in SAF, in Canada ......

PAK defends well is another myth - if you win one out of 4/5 games, doesn’t matter you are batting first or second - basically team is not good to compete at higher level. In last WC, against that Indian & ENG game, I can also mention the WIN�� game on a belter or the NZ game on a turner. And this myth wasn’t true even in 1990s, when PAK did have bowlers. I have seen PAK attack conceding twice world record chases by my own eyes - first one from VIP stand, 50 metres away from players - 314 against India at Dhaka (‘98) and 315 at Lahore ‘98, when Ponting & Gilchrist toyed with much vaunted PAK attack. On contrary, I have seen also PAK chasing 264 on a 3rd day wicket at Toronto against the best ever Indian attack before current lot.

In a standard game, when conditions are more or less similar throughout - teams can opt to bat or field based on their comfort level. Like now Poms will chase because of batting depth, but Indians would like to defend for top order batting and spin attack. Lloyd used to bowl first always and it cost him a WC, Cronje used to bat first because of his fielding unit that would have added 10-12% at least to his total - but that cost him an WC as well - could have eliminated Aussies in 1999 before SF .... and I am sure both would have done the same if they were given a second chance; because that was their core strategy, comfort zone and they didn’t lose because of the call at toss, opponents just played better that particular day.

But, that’s when the playing condition is roughly same, you stick to your play book. When the condition is massively favouring one side of batting of bowling first, you have to take judgemental calls. That’s why, many captains opts for chasing in D/N game despite clear light advantages in batting first - it’s a trade off between poor light/used track vs night dew. That Lord’s morning was crying for bowling first - with Wasim, Shoaib, Saq, backed by Razzak & Mahmood, PAK’s attack in any case in UK early summer was more suitable for bowling first and use the fresh wicket, particularly when in that WC they didn’t use D/N games.

I hope, now you are convinced that I do watch the game a bit.

Just look at the India games and my case is proven about pressure. In 92, a terrible Indian team gets around 220 and win the game easily, in 96, a poor Indian team gets a good total on an excellent pitch, we should have walked it, especially when you consider that around a 1/3 rd of the overs were bowled by Tendulkar and Jadeja, and we lose easily, in 99 another awful Ind team gets around 225 and win the game at a canter, in 2011 a decent Ind team gets 250 on an excellent pitch and we lose easily. We cant chase for toffee under pressure against poor bowling, never mind good ones.
The 99 WC final decision was the correct one but the batting was poor. The reason i asked you if you watched the game was that if you did, you would know that Saeeds Anwars( when he looked really good ) inability to change the grip and the crowds impatience as he wasted time, caused him to lose concentration and get out. And as he was our main man,any decent score from him would have meant that we would have scored over 200 and with our bowling lineup, we would have had a good chance.

 

[ahmedzee]

Totally disagree with Aamir Sohail there.

in 1996, Pakistan lost the world cup due to Aamir's hot headedness. We could've made it to the Semis easily with the chase, the way him and Saeed Anwar were going.

In 1999, Pakistan was on a roll. However you require something extra special to beat that Australian side.

In 2003, it was Waqar's poor captaincy that made Pakistan lose. Wasim wasn't even the captain. Waqar was extremely poor, and I have always maintained that he was 100% to blame with his defensive decision in almost every game.

 

[Watsupdoc]

I think that's a bit strong.

Both Hansie Cronje and Bob Woolmer ended up dead in suspicious circumstances. Woolmer's death may have been by natural causes, but Cronje's was in my mind 100% certainly by the same people and the same MO which killed Samora Machel.

https://mondediplo.com/2017/11/12Machel

Who would speak out in those circumstances? You would have to be a madman to take the risk.

But why take the risk now? What has changed. For me it doesn’t add up.

Again I am sure there is an element of truth to all this, but I don’t think any one in particular is telling the whole truth without adding their own spin on it.

 

[Markhor]

It's not that he got out, it's the way the he got out. He was the biggest culprit but an ageing and slow Miandad batted like he was constiptated. Inzi falling asleep at the crease just like he did 4 years later at Old Trafford were also awful.

Don't forget Saeed Anwar and Ijaz Ahmed giving catching practice despite being well ahead of the RRR. After that T20 paced start all we needed to do is knock it around.

 

[Bewal Express]

Don't forget Saeed Anwar and Ijaz Ahmed giving catching practice despite being well ahead of the RRR. After that T20 paced start all we needed to do is knock it around.

Agreed, it was if they had a bet on how quickly they could finish it. The fact that the Ind bowling in the middle overs was awful(Tendulkar and Jadeja) never occurred to these morons.

 

[MMHS]

Just look at the India games and my case is proven about pressure. In 92, a terrible Indian team gets around 220 and win the game easily, in 96, a poor Indian team gets a good total on an excellent pitch, we should have walked it, especially when you consider that around a 1/3 rd of the overs were bowled by Tendulkar and Jadeja, and we lose easily, in 99 another awful Ind team gets around 225 and win the game at a canter, in 2011 a decent Ind team gets 250 on an excellent pitch and we lose easily. We cant chase for toffee under pressure against poor bowling, never mind good ones.
The 99 WC final decision was the correct one but the batting was poor. The reason i asked you if you watched the game was that if you did, you would know that Saeeds Anwars( when he looked really good ) inability to change the grip and the crowds impatience as he wasted time, caused him to lose concentration and get out. And as he was our main man,any decent score from him would have meant that we would have scored over 200 and with our bowling lineup, we would have had a good chance.

You have no case here, because you have no clue about what it was like to chase 200+ under lights at SCG in early 90s. That IND side wasn't terrible, rather lost few very close games including one to Aussies to a ridiculous system used that time. On contrary PAK started from 10 wickets loss to WIN, and 74 all out England - both times batting first

If 2011 Indian team at home was decent, I am not sure what that PAK team should be leveled - YK, Asad, Misbah, sell by date Gul, ARazzak in an ODI playing XI and you think IND of 2011 side was "decent" - you must have high standards. PAK lost that game because fielders couldn't hold on to sitters 5 times in one game - you don't win after that batting first or second. Also, that wicket was dry and MSD was a master of those tracks - heavy dew nullified Indian spinners, otherwise batting first on dry conditions, against Indian spinner, that PAK batting lineup won't have taken you anywhere surface. And, that game was made close by Wahab, who made excellent use of the old ball - couple of years later that same Wahab defended 320+ at Dhaka, under lights with a wet ball ..........

The 1999 WC was a blunder to bat first and I did watch the game. More than those few minutes delay, I still think the bigger factor was the reason of those few minutes delay in start. Anwar is one of my favorites, a great player - still I am not sure he was that good to flip a defeat of that magnitude - alone, against those Aussies, against whom his stats outside Asia speaks it self. Few weeks back, Anwar came to Toronto for his Tableegue Jamat round-up, and I attended one of his session organized for youth (basically, that was the program where he was supposed to talk about his playing career, I am not that young anymore, neither devoted for TJ sermons) - he did mention the WC 1999 final, how difficult the batting condition was, how good the Aussies were and how they lost courage after couple of early wickets.

On a side note - your inner Pakistani is coming out when you mentioned Manzoor Elahi's pace. I was definitely not the selector, but the guy who used to select players for squad & playing XI as well, later did mention that it was a mistake - guy, buy the name of Imran Khan. In a five bowler combination, you need batting depth - which he rectified in his later ODI teams, which resulted players like Akram Raza, Sohail Fazal, Amer Malik, Shaeed Saeed, Wasim Haider... playing for his ODI team and Ijaz Ahmed sometimes bowling full quota - I may tell you that all these guys were below 75MPH .....

You have no clue about Manzoor Elahi - born in same year, that guy played lot more ODIs than Jaffar under the same Captain for a reason. In that SF, Jafar went for plenty including 18 in last over, and got a duck.

Regarding the 1996 QF, I have seen every ball of that game - this is what went wrong, and it wasn't batting second (just copying from other thread http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...an-defeat-upset-you-the-most/page3&highlight=)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of the list, I have seen every game and the top will be 1996 QF by some distance. That was a great, great PAK team with most of the players at their peak (barring Javed, who forced his way to PAK team, then play XI, and now these days he criticizes players to undeservingly hang around, irony....), and despite Wasim missing that game (& WY going for a beating), PAK had every opportunity to win that game.

SO many "wrong" was committed by PAK batsmen that day, that one could feel the PAK players were not in the game. 289 in 49 overs against IND, in IND in 1990s was always going to be tough, but PAK lost the game not from start, rather after 10 overs with 85/0 on board - needing 205 in 39 overs, with two set openers in, dew started to pour down and 10 of India's potent 30 overs gone. That day, IND was one bowler short, which had to be made by part-timers, then Ashish Kapoor was playing his 1st game of WC.

I remember, Azhar taking at least 5 minutes to start the 11th over, as his three main bowlers including Kumble were taken to the cleaners - then he went for one last over of Srinath, his 6th; and Anwar playing so far majestically for 48 (31), decided to play the least percentage shot of cricket - a lofted on drive from out side off, against a fast bowler bringing ball into him at pace and there was a deep mid-on placed - my hunch is, 99 times out of 100, any batsmen will fail to clear the deep mid-on on that shot, Anwar didn't either. Sohail took charge of the proceedings and he was still winning it - 115/1, after 14'5, that's 175 of 34 with 9 wickets at hand and by now Srinath had bowled 6, Prashad 4'5 and Kumble 4 ... only 15 overs from them were left - then the Sohail thing happened.

It was still on until, Izaj did exactly what Anwar did - this time to Prashad with almost identical result. ....It was still on - Azhar yet had to bail out 20 overs from Tendulkar, Jadeja & Kapoor and asking was less than 5.3, for a target around 170. Mongia dropped Inzamam, almost a dolly and the big mad was in tremendous form - he got out exactly to the same shot to cent percent precision - C Mongia, B Prashad, 3 balls later - 4 down.

Now, Azhar started to screw run-rate with his part-timers and that obsolete man Javed started to consume dots, asking went to sky and Salim Malik lost his wicket trying to reduce it. Even then, some mighty blows by Latif gave enough indication that had PAK planned the chase a little methodically, it was a game that should have been won comfortably from 85/0.

That WC, PAK top 4 were in tremendous form - each one scored plenty when they got the chance. As usual, PAK tank didn't think much, so against both Holland & UAE, after winning toss, on absolute belters, they decided to chase and casually won both games by 9 wickets inside 25 overs, ....... which didn't allow middle order any match practice - next game, against SAF, within few balls the two scorers against Holland, UAE (Saeed & Ijaz) got out, which cost PAK that game, because Amir, Inzi & others had their first outing in that WC, after 10 weeks from last competitive game - Amir did get a pain stacking hundred, but PAK fell short of posting a winning target. BUT, by the time QF started, each of the top 4 had enough time in middle, they were in great form - AND, each of them threw their wicket to fairly harmless balls, when there was absolutely no pressure to go after.

That, 1996 QF loss will hunt PAK many, many decades because PAK lost to IND in a WC game with undoubtedly superior team - since then, the gap between PAK-IND started to reduce and by 2003 the hand switched, it's getting wider from there on. I am not sure when PAK is going to beat IND in an ICC WC game in future!!!!!!

The Mohali one wasn't listed here because this thread was opened before that game, but that game wasn't a surprise to me to be honest - IND that time at home, batting first was always overwhelming favorites - Wahab's magic spell brought PAK into game some what, but fielders backed Indian batting that day to cover-up. NEVER in my mind was any doubt about who was going to win it after 1st innings.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Bewal Express]

You have no case here, because you have no clue about what it was like to chase 200+ under lights at SCG in early 90s. That IND side wasn't terrible, rather lost few very close games including one to Aussies to a ridiculous system used that time. On contrary PAK started from 10 wickets loss to WIN, and 74 all out England - both times batting first

If 2011 Indian team at home was decent, I am not sure what that PAK team should be leveled - YK, Asad, Misbah, sell by date Gul, ARazzak in an ODI playing XI and you think IND of 2011 side was "decent" - you must have high standards. PAK lost that game because fielders couldn't hold on to sitters 5 times in one game - you don't win after that batting first or second. Also, that wicket was dry and MSD was a master of those tracks - heavy dew nullified Indian spinners, otherwise batting first on dry conditions, against Indian spinner, that PAK batting lineup won't have taken you anywhere surface. And, that game was made close by Wahab, who made excellent use of the old ball - couple of years later that same Wahab defended 320+ at Dhaka, under lights with a wet ball ..........

The 1999 WC was a blunder to bat first and I did watch the game. More than those few minutes delay, I still think the bigger factor was the reason of those few minutes delay in start. Anwar is one of my favorites, a great player - still I am not sure he was that good to flip a defeat of that magnitude - alone, against those Aussies, against whom his stats outside Asia speaks it self. Few weeks back, Anwar came to Toronto for his Tableegue Jamat round-up, and I attended one of his session organized for youth (basically, that was the program where he was supposed to talk about his playing career, I am not that young anymore, neither devoted for TJ sermons) - he did mention the WC 1999 final, how difficult the batting condition was, how good the Aussies were and how they lost courage after couple of early wickets.

On a side note - your inner Pakistani is coming out when you mentioned Manzoor Elahi's pace. I was definitely not the selector, but the guy who used to select players for squad & playing XI as well, later did mention that it was a mistake - guy, buy the name of Imran Khan. In a five bowler combination, you need batting depth - which he rectified in his later ODI teams, which resulted players like Akram Raza, Sohail Fazal, Amer Malik, Shaeed Saeed, Wasim Haider... playing for his ODI team and Ijaz Ahmed sometimes bowling full quota - I may tell you that all these guys were below 75MPH .....

You have no clue about Manzoor Elahi - born in same year, that guy played lot more ODIs than Jaffar under the same Captain for a reason. In that SF, Jafar went for plenty including 18 in last over, and got a duck.

Regarding the 1996 QF, I have seen every ball of that game - this is what went wrong, and it wasn't batting second (just copying from other thread http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...an-defeat-upset-you-the-most/page3&highlight=)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of the list, I have seen every game and the top will be 1996 QF by some distance. That was a great, great PAK team with most of the players at their peak (barring Javed, who forced his way to PAK team, then play XI, and now these days he criticizes players to undeservingly hang around, irony....), and despite Wasim missing that game (& WY going for a beating), PAK had every opportunity to win that game.

SO many "wrong" was committed by PAK batsmen that day, that one could feel the PAK players were not in the game. 289 in 49 overs against IND, in IND in 1990s was always going to be tough, but PAK lost the game not from start, rather after 10 overs with 85/0 on board - needing 205 in 39 overs, with two set openers in, dew started to pour down and 10 of India's potent 30 overs gone. That day, IND was one bowler short, which had to be made by part-timers, then Ashish Kapoor was playing his 1st game of WC.

I remember, Azhar taking at least 5 minutes to start the 11th over, as his three main bowlers including Kumble were taken to the cleaners - then he went for one last over of Srinath, his 6th; and Anwar playing so far majestically for 48 (31), decided to play the least percentage shot of cricket - a lofted on drive from out side off, against a fast bowler bringing ball into him at pace and there was a deep mid-on placed - my hunch is, 99 times out of 100, any batsmen will fail to clear the deep mid-on on that shot, Anwar didn't either. Sohail took charge of the proceedings and he was still winning it - 115/1, after 14'5, that's 175 of 34 with 9 wickets at hand and by now Srinath had bowled 6, Prashad 4'5 and Kumble 4 ... only 15 overs from them were left - then the Sohail thing happened.

It was still on until, Izaj did exactly what Anwar did - this time to Prashad with almost identical result. ....It was still on - Azhar yet had to bail out 20 overs from Tendulkar, Jadeja & Kapoor and asking was less than 5.3, for a target around 170. Mongia dropped Inzamam, almost a dolly and the big mad was in tremendous form - he got out exactly to the same shot to cent percent precision - C Mongia, B Prashad, 3 balls later - 4 down.

Now, Azhar started to screw run-rate with his part-timers and that obsolete man Javed started to consume dots, asking went to sky and Salim Malik lost his wicket trying to reduce it. Even then, some mighty blows by Latif gave enough indication that had PAK planned the chase a little methodically, it was a game that should have been won comfortably from 85/0.

That WC, PAK top 4 were in tremendous form - each one scored plenty when they got the chance. As usual, PAK tank didn't think much, so against both Holland & UAE, after winning toss, on absolute belters, they decided to chase and casually won both games by 9 wickets inside 25 overs, ....... which didn't allow middle order any match practice - next game, against SAF, within few balls the two scorers against Holland, UAE (Saeed & Ijaz) got out, which cost PAK that game, because Amir, Inzi & others had their first outing in that WC, after 10 weeks from last competitive game - Amir did get a pain stacking hundred, but PAK fell short of posting a winning target. BUT, by the time QF started, each of the top 4 had enough time in middle, they were in great form - AND, each of them threw their wicket to fairly harmless balls, when there was absolutely no pressure to go after.

That, 1996 QF loss will hunt PAK many, many decades because PAK lost to IND in a WC game with undoubtedly superior team - since then, the gap between PAK-IND started to reduce and by 2003 the hand switched, it's getting wider from there on. I am not sure when PAK is going to beat IND in an ICC WC game in future!!!!!!

The Mohali one wasn't listed here because this thread was opened before that game, but that game wasn't a surprise to me to be honest - IND that time at home, batting first was always overwhelming favorites - Wahab's magic spell brought PAK into game some what, but fielders backed Indian batting that day to cover-up. NEVER in my mind was any doubt about who was going to win it after 1st innings.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's very detailed and I don't have time to read it but I have watched all the games and we don't chase well. I read what you said about the Ind team in 92, and they were poor, particularly their bowling. Kepil Dev was barely 75mph by 92, and Prabhakar was okay by then. Raju was OK but no way should we have not chased 220 on that wicket. To put it simply, if we batted 2nd against Ind in the CT, we would have lost.

 

[MMHS]

It's very detailed and I don't have time to read it but I have watched all the games and we don't chase well. I read what you said about the Ind team in 92, and they were poor, particularly their bowling. Kepil Dev was barely 75mph by 92, and Prabhakar was okay by then. Raju was OK but no way should we have not chased 220 on that wicket. To put it simply, if we batted 2nd against Ind in the CT, we would have lost.

Yes, PAK don't chase well - in normal condition, should always avoid chasing. But, not when you are starting against a massive handicap in some particular conditions. For example the BCCI Jubilee game at Eden, 2004 - PAK did chase 290+ under light and dew.

No, that Indian attack wasn't poor - they had Srinath as well. It's foolish to judge pacers only by speed, gun - I thought by now you should have realized that. Kapil that time still was top class pacer with skill, guile and Indian attack was quite decent. As I said, try to watch/follow games before questioning others - then you could have known that, that barely 75mph Kapil Dev took 25 wickets in 5 Tests, against AUS, in AUS, at an average of 25 with 2 5fors ...... 3 months before that 1992 WC . IND actually had a decent attack compared to their old fashioned ODI batting, which availed them defending 200 against AUS (won by 100+ margin) and 126 (tied) against WIN, both at WACA in that summer's WSC.

PAK probably would have lost in 2017 Final, because the gap between two teams was quite wide - that sort of batting doesn't happen when you are chasing. But, I am talking about 1999, when PAK had some proper batsmen, who had technique, temperament and proper shot playing ability - batsmen who could chase methodically, and batsmen who could rotate strike, and batsmen who could hit boundaries without playing low percentage shots - these are the keys to any chase; not guts or handling pressure.

You are saying PAK batsmen are born with the low pressure tolerance, so they should always bat first - I am saying a bit different thing - now, their skill set isn't good enough to play all-round game, which eventually always suffocates them while chasing - it was not the case in 1999, bowling first would have given PAK attack the same condition Aussies got and batsmen would have chased down a reasonable target - they did that, couple of years later at Docklands, against a better Aussie attack.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Wasim Akram should sue all of them.

 

[MMHS]

OK, let's wrap it.

I think, I understand where [MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] is coming, and to an extent he is correct as well. PAK has always been a bowling dependent team and in crunch situations, bowlers have delivered more than batsmen (right now, none is doing).

But, that thought process of "always bat first" isn't right - one has to use judgement. Cricket is a highly tactical game where condition & combination plays a big role. Most of the PAK posters recall the great wins by defending total, because they like to believe it. It's a psychic state where they attribute any failure to chase as batting short coming, but any failure to defend total as a better batting display by opponents. This is a flawed logic, which not only cost the 1999 Final, but 2003 WC as well - only a team like PAK could have opted to bat first on that Centurion track, which ironically was also a delayed start for overnight rain, a ground where W/L ratio for Day games was like 90/10 (or 80/20) by chasing team.

I give a real life example - that CT final is mentioned here, but en-route to that final, PAK actually won 3 elimination game, all batting second. It's just not that one should bat first because they are comfortable & confident in it - some judgement have to be applied.

We have discussed several games that were lost while chasing, because that fits the agenda, but we should look at the number of crucial games lost by PCT while batting first - no, I won't go to the WC games of 1975 & 1983, lost against WIN. From recent past, IND - 2003 (WC), 2014 (CT), 2012 (Asia Cup), NZ - 2002 CT (Nirobi), 2010 CT SF (SAF), WIN (2019 WC, 2004 CT), Ireland (2007 WC ), AUS (2001 triangular final), 2012 T20 SF ....... And, there are examples of opposite as well - winning crucial games while chasing - CT 2004 (IND), AUS (WC 2011), the T20 SF of 2007, Final for 2009.

Anyway, I didn't like PAK batting on that Lord's morning and I believe the game was lost with toss - now was it for any pre-planned strategy (whatever, we bat first), or any foul play, I don't know.

 

[MMHS]

Wasim Akram should sue all of them.

He won't - they'll settle it outside court, amicably . No one inside this ring is in a position to open the Pandora box.

 

[MenInG]

Please do not post unverified claims in any thread.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

You have no case here, because you have no clue about what it was like to chase 200+ under lights at SCG in early 90s. That IND side wasn't terrible, rather lost few very close games including one to Aussies to a ridiculous system used that time. On contrary PAK started from 10 wickets loss to WIN, and 74 all out England - both times batting first

If 2011 Indian team at home was decent, I am not sure what that PAK team should be leveled - YK, Asad, Misbah, sell by date Gul, ARazzak in an ODI playing XI and you think IND of 2011 side was "decent" - you must have high standards. PAK lost that game because fielders couldn't hold on to sitters 5 times in one game - you don't win after that batting first or second. Also, that wicket was dry and MSD was a master of those tracks - heavy dew nullified Indian spinners, otherwise batting first on dry conditions, against Indian spinner, that PAK batting lineup won't have taken you anywhere surface. And, that game was made close by Wahab, who made excellent use of the old ball - couple of years later that same Wahab defended 320+ at Dhaka, under lights with a wet ball ..........

The 1999 WC was a blunder to bat first and I did watch the game. More than those few minutes delay, I still think the bigger factor was the reason of those few minutes delay in start. Anwar is one of my favorites, a great player - still I am not sure he was that good to flip a defeat of that magnitude - alone, against those Aussies, against whom his stats outside Asia speaks it self. Few weeks back, Anwar came to Toronto for his Tableegue Jamat round-up, and I attended one of his session organized for youth (basically, that was the program where he was supposed to talk about his playing career, I am not that young anymore, neither devoted for TJ sermons) - he did mention the WC 1999 final, how difficult the batting condition was, how good the Aussies were and how they lost courage after couple of early wickets.

On a side note - your inner Pakistani is coming out when you mentioned Manzoor Elahi's pace. I was definitely not the selector, but the guy who used to select players for squad & playing XI as well, later did mention that it was a mistake - guy, buy the name of Imran Khan. In a five bowler combination, you need batting depth - which he rectified in his later ODI teams, which resulted players like Akram Raza, Sohail Fazal, Amer Malik, Shaeed Saeed, Wasim Haider... playing for his ODI team and Ijaz Ahmed sometimes bowling full quota - I may tell you that all these guys were below 75MPH .....

You have no clue about Manzoor Elahi - born in same year, that guy played lot more ODIs than Jaffar under the same Captain for a reason. In that SF, Jafar went for plenty including 18 in last over, and got a duck.

Regarding the 1996 QF, I have seen every ball of that game - this is what went wrong, and it wasn't batting second (just copying from other thread http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...an-defeat-upset-you-the-most/page3&highlight=)

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Of the list, I have seen every game and the top will be 1996 QF by some distance. That was a great, great PAK team with most of the players at their peak (barring Javed, who forced his way to PAK team, then play XI, and now these days he criticizes players to undeservingly hang around, irony....), and despite Wasim missing that game (& WY going for a beating), PAK had every opportunity to win that game.

SO many "wrong" was committed by PAK batsmen that day, that one could feel the PAK players were not in the game. 289 in 49 overs against IND, in IND in 1990s was always going to be tough, but PAK lost the game not from start, rather after 10 overs with 85/0 on board - needing 205 in 39 overs, with two set openers in, dew started to pour down and 10 of India's potent 30 overs gone. That day, IND was one bowler short, which had to be made by part-timers, then Ashish Kapoor was playing his 1st game of WC.

I remember, Azhar taking at least 5 minutes to start the 11th over, as his three main bowlers including Kumble were taken to the cleaners - then he went for one last over of Srinath, his 6th; and Anwar playing so far majestically for 48 (31), decided to play the least percentage shot of cricket - a lofted on drive from out side off, against a fast bowler bringing ball into him at pace and there was a deep mid-on placed - my hunch is, 99 times out of 100, any batsmen will fail to clear the deep mid-on on that shot, Anwar didn't either. Sohail took charge of the proceedings and he was still winning it - 115/1, after 14'5, that's 175 of 34 with 9 wickets at hand and by now Srinath had bowled 6, Prashad 4'5 and Kumble 4 ... only 15 overs from them were left - then the Sohail thing happened.

It was still on until, Izaj did exactly what Anwar did - this time to Prashad with almost identical result. ....It was still on - Azhar yet had to bail out 20 overs from Tendulkar, Jadeja & Kapoor and asking was less than 5.3, for a target around 170. Mongia dropped Inzamam, almost a dolly and the big mad was in tremendous form - he got out exactly to the same shot to cent percent precision - C Mongia, B Prashad, 3 balls later - 4 down.

Now, Azhar started to screw run-rate with his part-timers and that obsolete man Javed started to consume dots, asking went to sky and Salim Malik lost his wicket trying to reduce it. Even then, some mighty blows by Latif gave enough indication that had PAK planned the chase a little methodically, it was a game that should have been won comfortably from 85/0.

That WC, PAK top 4 were in tremendous form - each one scored plenty when they got the chance. As usual, PAK tank didn't think much, so against both Holland & UAE, after winning toss, on absolute belters, they decided to chase and casually won both games by 9 wickets inside 25 overs, ....... which didn't allow middle order any match practice - next game, against SAF, within few balls the two scorers against Holland, UAE (Saeed & Ijaz) got out, which cost PAK that game, because Amir, Inzi & others had their first outing in that WC, after 10 weeks from last competitive game - Amir did get a pain stacking hundred, but PAK fell short of posting a winning target. BUT, by the time QF started, each of the top 4 had enough time in middle, they were in great form - AND, each of them threw their wicket to fairly harmless balls, when there was absolutely no pressure to go after.

That, 1996 QF loss will hunt PAK many, many decades because PAK lost to IND in a WC game with undoubtedly superior team - since then, the gap between PAK-IND started to reduce and by 2003 the hand switched, it's getting wider from there on. I am not sure when PAK is going to beat IND in an ICC WC game in future!!!!!!

The Mohali one wasn't listed here because this thread was opened before that game, but that game wasn't a surprise to me to be honest - IND that time at home, batting first was always overwhelming favorites - Wahab's magic spell brought PAK into game some what, but fielders backed Indian batting that day to cover-up. NEVER in my mind was any doubt about who was going to win it after 1st innings.
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Couldn't agree more. 96' loss was most heart-breaking as a Pakistani fan. Aamer Sohail brainless antics have become etched in the memory like nothing else. Not even Misbah's scoop or the multiple sitters dropped at Mohali resonate as much.

 

[Saj]

I suggest all those former players with information, go to the ICC and reveal what they allegedly know.

I reckon most when approached by the ICC, will not say a thing.

 

[Bewal Express]

OK, let's wrap it.

I think, I understand where [MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] is coming, and to an extent he is correct as well. PAK has always been a bowling dependent team and in crunch situations, bowlers have delivered more than batsmen (right now, none is doing).

But, that thought process of "always bat first" isn't right - one has to use judgement. Cricket is a highly tactical game where condition & combination plays a big role. Most of the PAK posters recall the great wins by defending total, because they like to believe it. It's a psychic state where they attribute any failure to chase as batting short coming, but any failure to defend total as a better batting display by opponents. This is a flawed logic, which not only cost the 1999 Final, but 2003 WC as well - only a team like PAK could have opted to bat first on that Centurion track, which ironically was also a delayed start for overnight rain, a ground where W/L ratio for Day games was like 90/10 (or 80/20) by chasing team.

I give a real life example - that CT final is mentioned here, but en-route to that final, PAK actually won 3 elimination game, all batting second. It's just not that one should bat first because they are comfortable & confident in it - some judgement have to be applied.

We have discussed several games that were lost while chasing, because that fits the agenda, but we should look at the number of crucial games lost by PCT while batting first - no, I won't go to the WC games of 1975 & 1983, lost against WIN. From recent past, IND - 2003 (WC), 2014 (CT), 2012 (Asia Cup), NZ - 2002 CT (Nirobi), 2010 CT SF (SAF), WIN (2019 WC, 2004 CT), Ireland (2007 WC ), AUS (2001 triangular final), 2012 T20 SF ....... And, there are examples of opposite as well - winning crucial games while chasing - CT 2004 (IND), AUS (WC 2011), the T20 SF of 2007, Final for 2009.

Anyway, I didn't like PAK batting on that Lord's morning and I believe the game was lost with toss - now was it for any pre-planned strategy (whatever, we bat first), or any foul play, I don't know.

My friend you make some detailed and valid points but in the time I have been watching them, which now goes back 38 years, they have struggled with pressure. Now it can be argued that all teams have had their troubles with chasing.
Playing under pressure is an art, it combines all your skills with the added pressure of the scoreboard and to some extent history of your country. Our batsmen in the last 25 years in particular have struggled to cope with pressure and this combined with a lack of intelligence has led to struggles against the better bowling attacks. Off course conditions make difference but against good attacks, we look lost.

 

[Savak]

People blaming Amir Sohail for the 1996 loss are going overboard. Yes it was a humiliating ownage from Prasad but Sohail had done his job getting the team of to a flying start. Heck if you wish to blame Sohail for throwing his wicket away then the same could be said of Saeed Anwar. The real culprits are Ijaz, Inzamam, Salim Malik who failed to make the most of the rapid Jayasuriya, Afridi type start provided by the openers. Javed Miandad should never have played that WC and was a shell of himself.

 

[Chokli]

This is true, Pakistan should have won 1996 and 1999, 2003 could have gone either way.

We were extremely strong but we used to lose matches due to off-field antics.

Also don't forget, Wasim led his county side to victory a year prior at Lords also after it had been raining and he chose to bowl first

 

[MMHS]

My friend you make some detailed and valid points but in the time I have been watching them, which now goes back 38 years, they have struggled with pressure. Now it can be argued that all teams have had their troubles with chasing.
Playing under pressure is an art, it combines all your skills with the added pressure of the scoreboard and to some extent history of your country. Our batsmen in the last 25 years in particular have struggled to cope with pressure and this combined with a lack of intelligence has led to struggles against the better bowling attacks. Off course conditions make difference but against good attacks, we look lost.

Thanks bro. Playing under pressure indeed is an art and some of the best were for PAK - Javed, Zaheer, Asif, Imran, Malik (Salim), Inzi...

I think, every team struggles under pressure, even Aussies. One reason is, when you play games like Final/SF, you are playing against another top team of that tournament - there is hardly any soft moment. Against a good attack, a classy, sparkling but brittle line-up like PAK would often struggle - bat first or second, but if you add favorable conditions to it, it'll be carnage, most times. Didn't you see what WIN pacers did on an absolute belter, just using first few overs' freshness and bounce in 2019 WC?

For PAK, it (batting/chasing failure) gets often over blown because everyone around PAK cricket has a false believe (I would say bravado) for the bowling and it's always the batsmen that get the raw deal from media. It's exactly opposite of India - in 90s, bowlers at least gave that much vaunted line-up 5 Tests (including two against ZIM ) on plate for the batsmen to toast .... even people like Gavaskar always criticized their bowlers. We never tend to believe that bowlers might be in fault as well. Even I myself have slaughtered PAK batsmen for that Bangalore game (& fielders for that Mohali game) - still one bitter truth is that WY went for 40 in last two overs at Bangalore and IND had a start like 60-0, in 6/7 overs at Mohali.

I give you a classic example of how thought process has cluttered our judgement. I watched/heard at least 20 former PAK players after the 2003 WC game (IND) - from Col. Naushad Ali to Wasim Bari, Ali Zia, Javed, MHK, ..... Sarfraz (Newaz)....... More or less the gist was same - 1. batsmen should have scored more against Indian tundlers, 2. Tendulkar played like God against that PAK attack. Sarfraz even lambasted Saeed for a slow, selfish hundred and not taking PAK to 330.

I tell you the truth - that PAK attack was pathetic. Former greats holding on to last straw, on their career stats. Akram was a spent force (did manage his best ever ODI figure though ....against Netherlands), Shoaib was erratic - ugly on his bad days, WY was specialist Captain at No. 11, ARazzak was struggling with fitness and Indians play better leggi than 2003's Afridi at their clubs. Compared to that, I'll take that Indian attack any day for 2003 WC - ZAK was faster than any PAK pacer bar Shoaib, Srinath was still skillful with new ball, Nehra took 6-25 against Poms probably 5 days back and Kumble was mean as ever, and a genuine leggi. Add to that the intelligence of respective Captains, the utility part-timers in Ganguly, SRT, Mongia...; trust me, Indian attack was better ..... still tundler.

While SRT played a blinder, but that day every Indian batsmen pounced on PAK bowling, bar Ganguly; even Kaif who just accompanied Tendulkar - reason, PAK bowlers bowled absolute filth. SRT stayed there for long enough to ensure a walkaway win (& he was dropped as well), but IND would have chased 273 even without him, because of the condition and quality of PAK attack. Anwar hit a hundred as well and that was equally a good innings - played alone from one end, under far difficult conditions on a slow, wet out field and against a better attack .... still selfish.

This was exactly the thought process for 1999 Final (If I don't consider other possibility) - "we have bowlers who can defend whatever batsmen can put" - it doesn't work every time. In Super Six stage as well, PAK lost a game to SAF defending; in group stage, it was inexperience and 50+ extras that cost Scotland a possible upset, bowling first. How do we know that Aussies won't have lost by a bigger margin at Leeds had they batted first, or Kiwis at Northants? That PAK attack for 1999 was tailor made for English condition - the best ever ODI fast bowler, still in his menacing best; world's fastest bowler; a notorious mystery spinner and couple of skilled fast-medium seemers for middle overs. That Lord's condition was crying for that PAK attack to enjoy the first use of that fresh track and that gloomy sky would have made Mahmood/ARazzak more threatening than Shoaib with semi old ball.

 

[azimiqbal]

Ok I see everyone here blaming Amir Sohail , is everything forgetting Wasim Akram before the match got mysteriously injured ?

There is an old saying there is no smoke without fire!
Go ready the justice quyyam report , wasim Akram should of got a life ban.

Justice quyyam himself admitted he showed wasim Akram leanancy cause he was a fan

 

[sshakir411]

Amir’s only here for his 2 second game because if it really mattered to him he’d speak up then like Rashid. Pathetic of him to bring it when after he himself buried this years ago. Amir seeking cheap fame cuz he’s neither a saint nor a patriot by trying to bring this up now.

 

[Savak]

Aamir Sohail had no objections to playing Wasim Akram when he was captain in 1998.

 

[Hitman]

Ok I see everyone here blaming Amir Sohail , is everything forgetting Wasim Akram before the match got mysteriously injured ?

There is an old saying there is no smoke without fire!
Go ready the justice quyyam report , wasim Akram should of got a life ban.

Justice quyyam himself admitted he showed wasim Akram leanancy cause he was a fan

He said it in an interview in 2006. He himself admitted that he was a big fan of his and he didn't want his career to end in such a note. So he let him off.

 

[Ted123]

Rubbish claims.

 

[Dulex9]

1996-Sohail lost his head and gifted his wicket which led to a mini collapse.

1999-Collapsed under pressre.

2003-Australia was the best team there, their batting and bowling power was incredible.

 

[luv u cricket]

I think there's just a lot of jealousy when it comes to Wasim. He was a huge star in the 1990s. After Sachin who was in a different sphere of stardum altogether, you had Wasim at #2 probably ahead of Warne and even Lara I would say. People just hate his popularity and connections

Lol for after sachin hahaha. wasim Akram was a much much bigger star than sachin, even lara was bigger star than sachin