What is the reason behind protests against Covid-19 related restrictions?

[MenInG]

I am at a loss to understand why people would be against something that saves their lives?

===

More than 60 people have been arrested as anti-lockdown protesters clashed with police in central London.

Hundreds of demonstrators marched through the city near Oxford Street chanting "freedom" on Saturday, with some carrying placards reading "stop controlling us" and "no more lockdowns".

The Metropolitan Police said the arrests were for a number of suspected offences including breaching coronavirus regulations and that it expected the number to rise.

"We continue to urge people to go home," the force added.

Sky News reporter Ivor Bennett, who is at the scene, said there were "quite violent, aggressive clashes" between police and some protesters.

"People were letting off flares, there was red smoke and green smoke," he said.

"Police were trying to kettle the protesters in one place and break up the big group."

Groups of helmeted police were seen running to respond to protesters at Oxford Circus, Carnaby Street and Regent Street.

Traffic was temporarily blocked on Regent Street as police attempted to handcuff people on the ground in the middle of the road.

Police action was met with booing and chants of "shame on you" as demonstrators - many not wearing face masks - ignored requests to go home.

Other signs carried by protesters read "ditch the face masks" and "no to mandatory masks".

The Metropolitan Police said three people were arrested for allegedly breaching coronavirus restrictions at King's Cross station in London ahead of the demonstration.

A man is detained by police during the anti-lockdown protest in London
People were also led away in handcuffs during the protest in London's Hyde Park.

The Met Police had urged people not to attend protests this weekend and warned those who attend risk enforcement action by officers.

Protest is not a permitted exemption to the prohibition on gatherings under current coronavirus regulations in England, the force said.


https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-anti-lockdown-protesters-clash-with-police-in-london-12144977

 

[MenInG]

England's new Covid tier system has a "sunset" expiry date of 3 February, Boris Johnson has told MPs in a bid to prevent a Commons rebellion.

The current lockdown ends on Wednesday, and many Tory MPs are unhappy with the toughened tiers that will replace it.

MPs will vote on the system on Tuesday, with Labour undecided on its stance.

In a letter to MPs, the PM said rules could be eased in December, MPs could vote again in January, and the tier system could end in February.

And writing separately in the Mail on Sunday, Mr Johnson said he believed Easter would mark a "real chance to return to something like life as normal".

He warned, however, there would be "disastrous consequences" for the NHS if the government did not introduce the new tiered system when lockdown ends.

Has England's lockdown worked?
Why is so much of the North and Midlands in the top tier?
England's new system will see regions placed in one of three tiers: medium, high and very high.

In total, 99% of England will enter the highest two tiers, with tight restrictions on bars and restaurants and a ban on households mixing indoors. Only Cornwall, the Isle of Wight and Isles of Scilly will be in the lowest tier.

In a bid to quell MPs' concerns, Mr Johnson wrote to them outlining a timeline of when - and how - the tiered approach will end.

In his letter, Mr Johnson said:

Regulations have a "sunset" clause - or expiry date - of 3 February
Tiers will be reviewed every two weeks, and areas can move down the tiers from 16 December
At the end of January, MPs will have another vote on the tiered approach and decide whether measures stay in place until the end of March
The government will publish the circumstances that need to change for an area to move down a tier
Presentational grey line
GRaphic
In his letter to the public, the prime minister urged people to support the new system and "work together" with tiering, testing and vaccines.

He said: "We can't blow it now. We can't just throw it all away - not when freedom is in sight.

"We have worked too hard, lost too many, sacrificed too much, just to see our efforts incinerated in another volcanic eruption of the virus."

Third wave 'risk'
Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab told the BBC's Andrew Marr that having a tiered approach "allows us to have these localised restrictions".

He said there was a "risk" of a third wave "if we don't get the balance right."

Asked by Sophy Ridge on Sky News whether the government was looking at breaking counties into smaller areas for the tiers, given differences in rates of the virus within tier areas, Mr Raab said the measures would be reviewed every two weeks.

"But the problem is you've got to get the geographic size sufficiently effective that you don't find the smaller enclaves of lower level virus shooting up because they are not subject to the restrictions in the high levels around them," he said.

Labour's shadow foreign secretary Lisa Nandy told the BBC's Andrew Marr that her party's support of the government's coronavirus restrictions was "not unconditional" and they "will act in the public interest".

"We need to know first of all that these measures are tough enough to get control of the virus, otherwise what we are asking businesses to do is go through significant pain, people laid off, some businesses at risk of collapsing, without being able to show that this is worth it."

She added that there also needed to be "proper support" in place.

Elsewhere in the UK, Northern Ireland has begun a two-week circuit-breaker lockdown, while in Scotland each area has been placed in one of five tiers.

In Wales, First Minister Mark Drakeford said pubs, restaurants and bars will be subject to stricter restrictions - which are not yet finalised - in the run-up to Christmas. They will come into force from Friday, 4 December.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Reading in the paper today that the British army has deployed spies to fight Al Qaeda and Taliban anti-vax propaganda. Not sure if that's actually true, or the use of Al Qaeda and Taliban as enemies might itself be a way of tarring the anti-vax movement and get white Brits onside.

 

[Firebat]

Humans are just selfish. Having a beer at the pub is far more important to people than staying home for half a year to defeat a worldwide deadly virus.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

I am at a loss to understand why people would be against something that saves their lives?

===

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-anti-lockdown-protesters-clash-with-police-in-london-12144977

People are getting fed up of the covid restrictions - the government initially tell people that restrictions will be in place for 1-2 weeks which turn into 1-2 months which turn into god knows how long.

Also, whilst some of the rules make sense (no public gatherings, limited wedding/funeral sizes etc) some of the rules are just bizarre and so arbitrary. The ‘rule of 6’ for example has no scientific base at all. Moreover, they keep things like places of worship and pubs open yet gyms have to be closed?

Most of us follow the rules as we don’t want to break the law but who the hell are the government to tell us who we can and can’t hug, shake hands with or who we can and can’t have in our homes or gardens. Or who we can travel in our cars with. Even the whole face covering thing is silly - we need to wear them in supermarkets but not in the office/workplace lol.

Meanwhile lots of people are getting very very rich from all of this. And the taxpayer of course picks up the bill.

We are all adults and we should be able to judge for ourselves what level of risk we’re willing to take and act accordingly. Instead we are all just being treated like babies.

 

[Gullycricket]

Humans are just selfish. Having a beer at the pub is far more important to people than staying home for half a year to defeat a worldwide deadly virus.

Come on man there is no point living like this. It all made sense till some time but given everything many people are willing to take risks especially if they dont fall in vulnerable groups. Its been one year of this ** with no end in sight. Mask, social distancing and precautions but open up. Its enough. This lockdown and restrictions wont work

 

[Firebat]

Come on man there is no point living like this. It all made sense till some time but given everything many people are willing to take risks especially if they dont fall in vulnerable groups. Its been one year of this ** with no end in sight. Mask, social distancing and precautions but open up. Its enough. This lockdown and restrictions wont work

I'm not saying we should be locked down forever. I understand the detrimental effects it has on daily life and mental health etc. However, the lockdown and restrictions would have worked, and a lot sooner, if everyone properly adhered to them. At the heart of it, humans, including you and I, are selfish.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Come on man there is no point living like this. It all made sense till some time but given everything many people are willing to take risks especially if they dont fall in vulnerable groups. Its been one year of this ** with no end in sight. Mask, social distancing and precautions but open up. Its enough. This lockdown and restrictions wont work

Even when you do speak to people in the vulnerable groups, the over 80s for example, they’d rather make their own decisions.

You have people in care homes with dementia and other serious illnesses not being allowed to see their families for months and months all in an effort for what - to extend their lives by a few months or years? They are being forced to sacrifice their current quality of life in exchange for an extra few months or years of life which cannot even be guaranteed. It’s inhumane to keep people in their 80s and 90s away from their loved ones like this.

The government don’t even care about such people (if they did why did they discharge so many from hospitals to care homes at the peak of the crisis?) - they just don’t want to be embarrassed should the nhs get crippled as it would expose their years of underfunding and mismanagement.

 

[MenInG]

Police pelted with bottles as they break up illegal rave in COVID lockdown

West Midlands Police said bottles were thrown at officers who broke up an illegal rave at a disused warehouse in Birmingham.

The force tweeted a picture showing officers taking personal details from those present while issuing fines.

The tweet, issued in the early hours of Sunday, said around 150 people were found inside the warehouse, which was "contained" by response officers and members of its force support unit.

A follow-up tweet read: "All persons were led out in small numbers. Their details were taken and fixed penalty notices were issued for breaching lockdown restrictions. The fine is £200 to be paid within 28 days."

 

[ElRaja]

i dont advocate for anti lockdown demonstations, however i dont either accept the narrative that people should accept expert advice on word of mouth, esp when its patently obvious the government has been behind the eight ball on covid consistently.

the country had a mass approval for lockdowns in early march but the gov kept delaying with talk of herd immunity, but as soon as they felt the pressure of covid cases going up they went into lockdown. they lost the benefit of an early lockdown, but paid the price of a full lockdown anyway.

then there was the eat out to help out and test and trace, which was not a bad idea, but was so poorly executed that any fleeting economic benefit was more than wiped out by the severity of the eventual second wave.

the issue with the lockdowns, at least from my pov has been that the primary focus has been so myopically on the covid death rate (including all fatalities that may or may not have been covid related, but tested postiive) that there is simply no accounting for the hidden effects of the lockdowns on people mental and physical health, and on the general economy, effects of which will be felt for years, and most acutely by the poorest (tighter fiscal conditions, looser monetary conditions).

then you also have to consider the patently obvious corruption of the gov and corps who have exploited public contracts, the furlough scheme, etc.

all this before the moral issue of how many civil rights are we willing to have curbed in the name of protecting each other, yes this pandemic has been terrible, but the reaction will no doubt set a precedent for any unscrupulous ruling party to know how easy it is to control large populations.

 

[LongHorn]

In the US, stay home restrictions have helped Amazon and Facebook increase their profits by tens of billions; and predictably the Washington Post (owned by Bezos) is the most pro-lockdown newspaper

 

[LongHorn]

I'm not saying we should be locked down forever. I understand the detrimental effects it has on daily life and mental health etc. However, the lockdown and restrictions would have worked, and a lot sooner, if everyone properly adhered to them.

Lockdowns work when very few people have it in a city/country and you can test, track and isolate the contacts
When there already has been significant community spread, lockdowns just delay the inevitable

 

[Technics 1210]

The incompetent government.

It's clear there is no strategy by the UK GOV for C19. It's all chop and change, and with this comes uncertainty; which no one can plan/prepare for. People in the UK are becoming frustrated.

If Boris was a leader he'd have set a clear cut path since March.

Spitting image has nailed the Tories.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Because the pandemic is vastly overstated. 98% recover and to stop everyone living thier lives for this is a joke.

UK has one of the most vocal public. Most here have had enough of this nonsense, the ecomony is breaking down.

Those who are vunerable should stay in, simple.

 

[iRfaN_LA]

In the US, stay home restrictions have helped Amazon and Facebook increase their profits by tens of billions; and predictably the Washington Post (owned by Bezos) is the most pro-lockdown newspaper

Tech companies and left media has been overwhelmingly pro-lockdowns. Just open CNN and they will shovel you with Covid-19 coverage and lockdowns.

 

[Suleiman]

Not sure what’s happening in the UK specifically but think about it from a psychological perspective, a lot of countries have had lockdown for months on end now, how much longer can you go indoors without it affecting you mentally. It’s not a normal life style by any means. I think we are going to about one whole year more or less of said restrictions across the globe.

HAVING SAID THAT, if the health authorities deem it essential that a lockdown is necessary then we must follow, but I understand the frustrations all the same.

 

[James]

Because the population is understandably growing tired of it all.

 

[James]

Saw this posted on Twitter the other day, and it summed things up for me ---

"If you supported the lockdowns DO NOT come crying to me about
1) Reduced foreign aid budget.
2) Public sector pay freeze for years.
3) Taxes increased and incomes decreased for everyone.
4) Mental health services overrun.
5) Suicide rates up.
6) Businesses closing down everywhere.
7) Mass bankruptcies and widespread poverty.
8) Additional £394 Billion in debt."

Every government decision to lock us down harder for longer has consequences. Every day counts. Every day, the already gigantic hole gets deeper.

When civilisation as we know it has collapsed in a few years, one wonders if all of these vociferous pro-lockdown supporters will insist that none of it is their fault and that they never advocated for it....

 

[LongHorn]

HAVING SAID THAT, if the health authorities deem it essential that a lockdown is necessary then we must follow, but I understand the frustrations all the same.

Some countries allow health officials to make all the decisions, in others (like Pakistan), the leaders decide after taking in input from health and economic advisors

If you allow health officials to decide, they would have no problem with lockdowns for months or years. They themselves will get paid no matter what so they are tone deaf to the sufferings of other people who lose jobs/businesses

 

[LongHorn]

Tech companies and left media has been overwhelmingly pro-lockdowns. Just open CNN and they will shovel you with Covid-19 coverage and lockdowns.

If journalists and tech workers started losing jobs or face 50% salary cuts for every day of lockdown they would quickly change their stance. It is only because they themselves think their jobs are immune to lockdowns that they do not care for those suffering

 

[LongHorn]

Saw this posted on Twitter the other day, and it summed things up for me ---

"If you supported the lockdowns DO NOT come crying to me about
1) Reduced foreign aid budget.
2) Public sector pay freeze for years.
3) Taxes increased and incomes decreased for everyone.
4) Mental health services overrun.
5) Suicide rates up.
6) Businesses closing down everywhere.
7) Mass bankruptcies and widespread poverty.
8) Additional £394 Billion in debt."
..

9) Increased deaths from delayed cancer screenings, greater obesity from staying home, and heart diseases from the increased stress from job losses and economic collapse

 

[Robert]

I am at a loss to understand why people would be against something that saves their lives?

Britons are highly individualistic, we don’t like being told what to do.

A lot of people are reduced to poverty by these measures so there is much anger.

Plus the age of social media has led to the proliferation of silly conspiracy thinking.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Britons are highly individualistic, we don’t like being told what to do.

A lot of people are reduced to poverty by these measures so there is much anger.

Plus the age of social media has led to the proliferation of silly conspiracy thinking.

Which of the below is a conspiracy?

1) Reduced foreign aid budget.
2) Public sector pay freeze for years.
3) Taxes increased and incomes decreased for everyone.
4) Mental health services overrun.
5) Suicide rates up.
6) Businesses closing down everywhere.
7) Mass bankruptcies and widespread poverty.
8) Additional £394 Billion in debt."

 

[Robert]

Because the pandemic is vastly overstated. 98% recover and to stop everyone living thier lives for this is a joke.

98% recovery means well over a million will die.

That’s three times the number of Britons killed in World War Two.

So by your criterion, World War Two was “vastly overstated”.

 

[Robert]

Which of the below is a conspiracy?

1) Reduced foreign aid budget.
2) Public sector pay freeze for years.
3) Taxes increased and incomes decreased for everyone.
4) Mental health services overrun.
5) Suicide rates up.
6) Businesses closing down everywhere.
7) Mass bankruptcies and widespread poverty.
8) Additional £394 Billion in debt."

None, but all that garbage about vaccines changing your DNA and injecting tracker microchips is.

 

[KingKhanWC]

98% recovery means well over a million will die.

That’s three times the number of Britons killed in World War Two.

So by your criterion, World War Two was “vastly overstated”.

98% is worldwide.

War is nothing like a pandemic.

 

[KingKhanWC]

None, but all that garbage about vaccines changing your DNA and injecting tracker microchips is.

Hdyrogel is not a conspiracy theory, it is technology which is ready to go.

Lets stick to the damage being done, you seem to dismiss this quickly and spend more time worrying about what believe which may or may not be true.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Saw this posted on Twitter the other day, and it summed things up for me ---

"If you supported the lockdowns DO NOT come crying to me about
1) Reduced foreign aid budget.
2) Public sector pay freeze for years.
3) Taxes increased and incomes decreased for everyone.
4) Mental health services overrun.
5) Suicide rates up.
6) Businesses closing down everywhere.
7) Mass bankruptcies and widespread poverty.
8) Additional £394 Billion in debt."

Every government decision to lock us down harder for longer has consequences. Every day counts. Every day, the already gigantic hole gets deeper.

When civilisation as we know it has collapsed in a few years, one wonders if all of these vociferous pro-lockdown supporters will insist that none of it is their fault and that they never advocated for it....

For me the issue isn't with the idea of a lockdown, its with how poorly our government have executed it!

The lack of consistent messaging at the start, allowing almost every business to operate as 'essential', test and trace debacle and little scrutiny in airports at the start of the pandemic has contributed to this delay.

Boris has managed to make a career by being on the fence about things until the very last minute. While this strategy has benefited him tremendously, employing it during a pandemic has been catastrophic.

 

[Technics 1210]

Arcadia - Philip Green's retail empire is about to go bust.

 

[Technics 1210]

Hdyrogel is not a conspiracy theory, it is technology which is ready to go.

Lets stick to the damage being done, you seem to dismiss this quickly and spend more time worrying about what believe which may or may not be true.

Not damage, but carnage. Businesses going bust, people with no income, cannot pay debts, businesses cannot pay rent, rents collapsing, hospitality and airline industry decimated, genuine sick people dying because NHS is in C19 mode - but lets blame Brexit and conspiracy theories!

 

[pakistani pride]

People are fed up and had enough, being treated like 5 years old kids.

I mean the only thing that matters is covid 24/7. People lost their jobs, social issues, depressions but no you dont ubderstand why there are protests?

I mean really?

 

[pakistani pride]

98% recovery means well over a million will die.

That’s three times the number of Britons killed in World War Two.

So by your criterion, World War Two was “vastly overstated”.

Do you know how many people die EACH day worldwide?

 

[Stewie]

I am at a loss to understand why people would be against something that saves their lives?

===

More than 60 people have been arrested as anti-lockdown protesters clashed with police in central London.

Hundreds of demonstrators marched through the city near Oxford Street chanting "freedom" on Saturday, with some carrying placards reading "stop controlling us" and "no more lockdowns".

The Metropolitan Police said the arrests were for a number of suspected offences including breaching coronavirus regulations and that it expected the number to rise.

"We continue to urge people to go home," the force added.

Sky News reporter Ivor Bennett, who is at the scene, said there were "quite violent, aggressive clashes" between police and some protesters.

"People were letting off flares, there was red smoke and green smoke," he said.

"Police were trying to kettle the protesters in one place and break up the big group."

Groups of helmeted police were seen running to respond to protesters at Oxford Circus, Carnaby Street and Regent Street.

Traffic was temporarily blocked on Regent Street as police attempted to handcuff people on the ground in the middle of the road.

Police action was met with booing and chants of "shame on you" as demonstrators - many not wearing face masks - ignored requests to go home.

Other signs carried by protesters read "ditch the face masks" and "no to mandatory masks".

The Metropolitan Police said three people were arrested for allegedly breaching coronavirus restrictions at King's Cross station in London ahead of the demonstration.

A man is detained by police during the anti-lockdown protest in London
People were also led away in handcuffs during the protest in London's Hyde Park.

The Met Police had urged people not to attend protests this weekend and warned those who attend risk enforcement action by officers.

Protest is not a permitted exemption to the prohibition on gatherings under current coronavirus regulations in England, the force said.


https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-anti-lockdown-protesters-clash-with-police-in-london-12144977

My views might be highly controversial here for some people but here goes:

I think we are witnessing a massive “not so underground” movement the world over. It is basically spread by social media and the conspiracy theory sections of the populations across the world. There is a deep mistrust of the governments within these people around the world. They don’t trust them. They believe there is a larger scheme at work here. There is a pretty widely believed theory here in the US, also in the UK and pretty much most other western and some non western countries wherever these theories fit the local narrative. The “globalists/zionists/liberals/socialists/extremists” fit your choice of word... are out to get us. This is their new agenda. They want to control everyone. They want you to believe whatever they tell you. So they can have a one world policy.

It’s pretty easy to fit your piece of the thing in there and promote these anti establishment narrative. The covid reactions are a part of this trend. These theorists emboldened by the social media and support from some leaders, and also confused and frustrated by covid are lashing out because they feel the establishment has either something to do with it or they are trying to make it worse. There is no logic or reason behind some of these theories people believe in. There are anti maskers. Anti vaxxers. Anti 5g because 5g is killing people. Global warming non believers and climate change naysayers.

Like I said you will find all sorts but if you look closely, the patterns are very similar. The basis of it all is common. The overall lack of trust and belief in the system, believing unverified sources for information and chaos.

That’s my take, I could be wrong.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Not damage, but carnage. Businesses going bust, people with no income, cannot pay debts, businesses cannot pay rent, rents collapsing, hospitality and airline industry decimated, genuine sick people dying because NHS is in C19 mode - but lets blame Brexit and conspiracy theories!

Spot on. Also Older people need to stop being selfish, the kids will grow up into a debt ridden, broken, divided society with little prospects for the future.

 

[LongHorn]

What is happening over last few years is that anyone who expresses any doubt over any mainstream narrative is termed a "conspiracy theorist" or "flat-earther" implying that person is not credible because he or she is not following the "woke" narrative. With some social media giants dominating, they can easily silence or "cancel" anyone not meeting their standards

If you said Epstein was murdered and it was not a suicide you will be termed conspiracy theorist
If you think something was not right over 9/11, same thing

Nowadays apparently if you believe that the virus was an accident from some lab in Wuhan, you are again a lunatic
You should supposedly believe it came completely naturally

 

[LongHorn]

There is no logic or reason behind some of these theories people believe in. There are anti maskers. Anti vaxxers. Anti 5g because 5g is killing people. Global warming non believers and climate change naysayers.
.

Vast majority of people against lockdown are not spouting the 5G theory. But you are somehow lumping them all together

As for the "establishment", there has been increasing signs of the "Great Reset". Places like WEF actively promote certain movements ...

Global warming is real, however not everyone is a Greta style alarmist.


There are beliefs that are "in" and those that are not.

Nowadays, expressing any doubt over vaccines makes you a conspiracy theorist

But detracting from the BLM movement makes you a racist as BLM is "in" now

 

[Robert]

98% is worldwide.

War is nothing like a pandemic.

Ok, so worldwide you are willing to accept the deaths of 150 million human souls. That’s a lot worse than WW1 and WW2 combined including the mass exterminations and famines.

 

[Robert]

What is happening over last few years is that anyone who expresses any doubt over any mainstream narrative is termed a "conspiracy theorist" or "flat-earther" implying that person is not credible because he or she is not following the "woke" narrative. With some social media giants dominating, they can easily silence or "cancel" anyone not meeting their standards

If you said Epstein was murdered and it was not a suicide you will be termed conspiracy theorist
If you think something was not right over 9/11, same thing

Nowadays apparently if you believe that the virus was an accident from some lab in Wuhan, you are again a lunatic
You should supposedly believe it came completely naturally

Conspiracy theorists are people who jump to conclusions about some alleged shadowy groups making bad things happen, instead of thinking critically about the evidence and drawing parsimonious conclusions.

 

[Robert]

Do you know how many people die EACH day worldwide?

What’s your point? Is it that nothing matters, so let’s reduce the life expectancy of 150 million more? We’re all going to die so let us dispense with medicine?

 

[Robert]

Hdyrogel is not a conspiracy theory, it is technology which is ready to go.

Lets stick to the damage being done, you seem to dismiss this quickly and spend more time worrying about what believe which may or may not be true.

Eh? What is the reference to hydrogel for?

The way to stop the damage being done - by which I take it you mean economic damage - is roll out the vaccine. Then we can all start to get back to normal life.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Ok, so worldwide you are willing to accept the deaths of 150 million human souls. That’s a lot worse than WW1 and WW2 combined including the mass exterminations and famines.

Covid is mainly taking the lives of senior citizens, world war took away the young.

 

[Robert]

Covid is mainly taking the lives of senior citizens, world war took away the young.

1. Bombing cities, famines and extermination camps kill everyone

2. Why don’t you value elders?

 

[Gilly]

What’s your point? Is it that nothing matters, so let’s reduce the life expectancy of 150 million more? We’re all going to die so let us dispense with medicine?

At the moment isn't the average age of deaths due to covid higher than the life expectancy in the UK.

 

[Robert]

At the moment isn't the average age of deaths due to covid higher than the life expectancy in the UK.

So people above life expectancy should be allowed to die rather than carry on enjoying life?

Because quite apart from the moral aspect that will shift the bell curve to reduce life expectancy, if I remember my O-level Statistics correctly.

 

[Gilly]

So people above life expectancy should be allowed to die rather than carry on enjoying life?

Because quite apart from the moral aspect that will shift the bell curve to reduce life expectancy, if I remember my O-level Statistics correctly.

Thats what needs to be established, is covid reducing the life expectancy?

People will always die of something, you cant die from nothing.

 

[Robert]

Thats what needs to be established, is covid reducing the life expectancy?

People will always die of something, you cant die from nothing.

If you die of something, it has reduced your life expectancy. That does not need “establishing”. It’s a truism.

 

[Gilly]

If you die of something, it has reduced your life expectancy. That does not need “establishing”. It’s a truism.

Not always, more people die now from cancer than they did 50 years ago but our life expectancy has increased. Whenever you eliminate a cause of death there will be an uptake in other forms of death.

Like I said earlier almost everyone that has died of covid has other health complications, it needs to be established that covid is actually causing deaths or just associated with a weakened immune system (ie would the person died of other causes had covid not been present). there is very little information on this issue.

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/anti-lockdown-protesters-defy-restrictions-central-london-march-2021-04-24/

Several thousand anti-lockdown demonstrators marched through central London on Saturday despite restrictions on mass gatherings during the COVID-19 pandemic.

The event was billed by organisers: "Unite for Freedom".

The protesters view COVID-19 restrictions as unnecessary and a breach of their human rights. They oppose vaccinations, mask-wearing and so called health passports.

Media reports put numbers at about 10,000, though the Metropolitan Police did not confirm a figure.

Protesters chanted "freedom" and "take off your mask" and some carried placards saying: "No to vaccine passports" and "Lockdowns kill". Most were unmasked.

A spokesman for the Metropolitan Police said he was not aware of any arrests.

England has relaxed its lockdown restrictions in recent weeks. Non-essential shops and outdoor hospitality reopened on April 12, but indoor gatherings are still banned until May 17 at the earliest.

 

[MenInG]

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Protesters faced off against police in Amsterdam as thousands of people defied a ban on mass gatherings.

 

[PakLFC]

The government keeps changing it's stance every day. People are promised that taking the vaccine will protect them from the Covid then another variant comes along and we are told the same. This is biological warfare not a natural disease that we are being told off.

 

[IAJ]

The government keeps changing it's stance every day. People are promised that taking the vaccine will protect them from the Covid then another variant comes along and we are told the same. This is biological warfare not a natural disease that we are being told off.

Wich gov. tells you vaccine will protect you from Covid? Here in Norway the majority are vaccinated but people still do get Covid. The vaccines will make sure you don’t get seriously ill, that’s what they say here at least.

 

[Giannis]

Good on the English, people are fed up with these games

 

[Manunited18]

The omricon variant and it's milder symptoms will ensure of heard immunity moving forward, surely the pandemic will conclude to endemic. The big question is how many more boosters/vaccines will be required for the coming years?

 

[PakLFC]

Wich gov. tells you vaccine will protect you from Covid? Here in Norway the majority are vaccinated but people still do get Covid. The vaccines will make sure you don’t get seriously ill, that’s what they say here at least.

Don't know about Norway but the UK government said this the first time the vaccine was made available. Then came the second vaccine or boosters. When I first went for the first vaccine was told it will protect me from the virus. Then some days later news channels reported the vaccine does not guarantee anything so what it the point in taking it? Now they are telling us what is seriously sick and what isn't!. The whole thing is like a circus.

 

[Robert]

The omricon variant and it's milder symptoms will ensure of heard immunity moving forward, surely the pandemic will conclude to endemic. The big question is how many more boosters/vaccines will be required for the coming years?

A vaccine will be offered every year moving forward, like the flu jab is now to elders and immunocompromised, protecting against the current circulating strains.

So COVID will come to be managed in the same way as the flu - all it more contagious and more deadly.

 

[Justcrazy]

Its insane that even after 2 years , there is no effective vaccine, people will eventually get fed up.

 

[Tera Gawaandi]

Its insane that even after 2 years , there is no effective vaccine, people will eventually get fed up.

Vaccines are effective, most (80% +) hospitalizations and ICUs are unvaccinated. Only problem is selfish 10% people who refuse to get vaccinated in Canada.

Problem is knee-jerk reactions like banning foreign travel and keeping families seperated, hoarding vaccines in US n Canada instead of helping developing countries, stupid rules like no gym but one can eat unmasked in crowded mall food court. Masks, capacity restrictions n social distancing is all theatre, this virus is not going away ever, but it can be controlled if rest of the world gets vaccines.

Anyways Omicron has been a blessing, it spreads fast and is mild. I also got it, and it mainly impacted my throat. I think eventually everyone is going to catch covid at this rate, 1 Million a day cases in US.

 

[Stewie]

I think the issue is far more complex than most people are making it out to be.

1. Lockdowns don’t work. The data has proven it.

2. The vaccine does work, the data proves that as well. If you are vaccinated, it improves your odds of survival by A LOT.

3. Lockdowns and vaccines DO NOT guarantee 100% protection.


I would simply conclude that lockdowns were needed when we had no vaccine. But now that we do, it’s the people who are not vaccinated ruining it for everyone, and the Omicron variant has exacerbated the situation because it’s highly contagious.

But the point is the same reason vaccine is not working (anti vaxxers) will be in play with lockdowns as well (these people just won’t accept lockdowns) which is why it won’t work.

We just have to ride this wave out. The Omicron variant is actually good news for us because it’s milder yet highly contagious so hopefully it will lead us to herd immunity.

 

[silentkiller187]

Not always, more people die now from cancer than they did 50 years ago but our life expectancy has increased. Whenever you eliminate a cause of death there will be an uptake in other forms of death.

Like I said earlier almost everyone that has died of covid has other health complications, it needs to be established that covid is actually causing deaths or just associated with a weakened immune system (ie would the person died of other causes had covid not been present). there is very little information on this issue.

I read a report the other day which highlighted the fact many ommicron patients in UK hospitals came in for other issues, and then contracted covid in the hospital, that then gets attributed to being a covid hospitalization which is highly misleading.

Politicians have also admitted live on tv if you get hit by a bus, and you had covid in the last year you death will be attributed to covid, seems like they are trying to hit some sort of targets or something with the way they speak about these things.

Finally if the government really believed this virus was to be as bad as it is they would be the first to take precautions, but it seems the MPS are most lax in the country when it comes to coivd protocol

 

[Stewie]

I read a report the other day which highlighted the fact many ommicron patients in UK hospitals came in for other issues, and then contracted covid in the hospital, that then gets attributed to being a covid hospitalization which is highly misleading.

Politicians have also admitted live on tv if you get hit by a bus, and you had covid in the last year you death will be attributed to covid, seems like they are trying to hit some sort of targets or something with the way they speak about these things.

Finally if the government really believed this virus was to be as bad as it is they would be the first to take precautions, but it seems the MPS are most lax in the country when it comes to coivd protocol

I would like to know why do you think they are doing that? Why would they want to inflate Covid fatality numbers? I hear and read a lot of conspiracy theories but nothing convincing so far.

 

[LaLoco]

I read a report the other day which highlighted the fact many ommicron patients in UK hospitals came in for other issues, and then contracted covid in the hospital, that then gets attributed to being a covid hospitalization which is highly misleading.

Politicians have also admitted live on tv if you get hit by a bus, and you had covid in the last year you death will be attributed to covid, seems like they are trying to hit some sort of targets or something with the way they speak about these things.

Finally if the government really believed this virus was to be as bad as it is they would be the first to take precautions, but it seems the MPS are most lax in the country when it comes to coivd protocol

So, hospitals are getting filled up because more people are getting hit by bus during Pandemic? how does it make sense?

If people arriving at hospitals, contracting Covid, then getting admitted because their body can't handle covid related complication is still filling up the hospitals, isn't it? but question is, why are more people arriving at the hospital during Pandemic and getting admitted if it has almost nothing to do with contracting covid in community?

 

[silentkiller187]

I would like to know why do you think they are doing that? Why would they want to inflate Covid fatality numbers? I hear and read a lot of conspiracy theories but nothing convincing so far.

Im not too sure to be honest, I'm not fully a conspiracy theorist but i have heard separately at the start of the pandemic anyway hospitals and GPS were getting extra funding for every covid patient they dealt with?

Another thing which makes me wonder is the emergence of many articles in the last few weeks on the economist and other well respected publications on the strain the older generations are having on the population especially in the west, it costs the state a lot of money when trying to deal with these people, and coincidently a virus comes out which mainly affects the older generation population control or coincidence? im still undecided personally.

 

[silentkiller187]

So, hospitals are getting filled up because more people are getting hit by bus during Pandemic? how does it make sense?

If people arriving at hospitals, contracting Covid, then getting admitted because their body can't handle covid related complication is still filling up the hospitals, isn't it? but question is, why are more people arriving at the hospital during Pandemic and getting admitted if it has almost nothing to do with contracting covid in community?

if i am in hospital with covid, and i beat covid, and i leave the hospital and get hit by a bus, what is my cause of death in your opinion? covid or being hit by bus??

There are other medical issues other than covid, hospitals in the uk have always been full even pre pandemic, what i am saying is they are falsely inflating the stats if someone is already in hospital with something else and they contract a mild covid which otherwise would not require hospitilization, why do you think theres so many vaccinated covid patients in hospital

 

[LaLoco]

Not always, more people die now from cancer than they did 50 years ago but our life expectancy has increased. Whenever you eliminate a cause of death there will be an uptake in other forms of death.

Like I said earlier almost everyone that has died of covid has other health complications, it needs to be established that covid is actually causing deaths or just associated with a weakened immune system (ie would the person died of other causes had covid not been present). there is very little information on this issue.

Covid hasten the death. If it wasn't for Covid, most of those people would still be alive, so the cause of death would be Covid because of immunocompromised patients could not effectively fight the virus - well established fact, no ambiguity in this fact.

Similar mechanism with any serious respiratory virus in any immunocompromised patient, the cause of death will be that particular virus, not diabetes because diabetes did not kill the patient, the virus did.

 

[LaLoco]

if i am in hospital with covid, and i beat covid, and i leave the hospital and get hit by a bus, what is my cause of death in your opinion? covid or being hit by bus??

There are other medical issues other than covid, hospitals in the uk have always been full even pre pandemic, what i am saying is they are falsely inflating the stats if someone is already in hospital with something else and they contract a mild covid which otherwise would not require hospitilization, why do you think theres so many vaccinated covid patients in hospital

Getting hit by the bus, broke a neck or profusely bleeding will be documented as such, accident caused the death.

This ambiguity, mostly has build upon the foundation for those who failed to understand how deaths are documented at hospital. And, probably the worse counter against lockdown.

 

[silentkiller187]

Getting hit by the bus, broke a neck or profusely bleeding will be documented as such, accident caused the death.

This ambiguity, mostly has build upon the foundation for those who failed to understand how deaths are documented at hospital. And, probably the worse counter against lockdown.

Well like i mentioned in my initial post, Public Health England who publishes these reports admitted themselves the example i gave above would be attributed to a covid death, its common knowledge a simple google search you can find the articles.

Therefore in this scenario the ambiguity has been caused by the people we should be trusting?

 

[LaLoco]

Well like i mentioned in my initial post, Public Health England who publishes these reports admitted themselves the example i gave above would be attributed to a covid death, its common knowledge a simple google search you can find the articles.

Therefore in this scenario the ambiguity has been caused by the people we should be trusting?

can you please post the article, if getting hit by a bus is documented Covid then it is pretty stupid, I doubt Public Health England is that stupid, but again, anything is possible.

Recently, the people in the US were told to inject bleach by an elected clown, so anything is possible.

 

[silentkiller187]

can you please post the article, if getting hit by a bus is documented Covid then it is pretty stupid, I doubt Public Health England is that stupid, but again, anything is possible.

Recently, the people in the US were told to inject bleach by an elected clown, so anything is possible.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1284054725927866369

 

[James]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60059543

<b>German Covid protests turn nasty in row over rules and vaccinations</b>

Petra Köpping was at home when she realised that around 30 people wielding flaming torches had gathered outside her house.

The regional politician is responsible for public health in the eastern state of Saxony, and the shouting protesters on her doorstep were apparently furious about measures to tackle the coronavirus pandemic.

The protest last month, widely condemned by politicians and the public alike, was not a one-off.

Every week tens of thousands of Germans take to the streets to demonstrate against restrictions and vaccination.

Many protests are peaceful, but others explode into violence and experts are increasingly worried by the aggressive language and threats aimed at politicians and public figures online.

Two security officers stood guard as I interviewed Petra Köpping about her experience.

Some of the hatred towards her, she says, is stirred up and exploited by the far right.

"We have to make a clear distinction between organisers who engage in right-wing extremist ideology and want to change society - they don't care about vaccination policy - and the people who come along because they're opposed to vaccination."

People such as Björn who I met at a recent demonstration in Berlin. He'd brought along his young son and, as he held his hand in the crowd, Björn explained he wasn't vaccinated himself because he thought the jab had been developed too quickly.

"The discrepancy between what we know and what the media tell us makes me suspicious."

Covid has divided Germany.

The unvaccinated are banned from restaurants, non-essential shops, leisure and arts facilities; and politicians are considering compulsory vaccination.

Björn was among several thousand people who marched through the brightly lit streets of the capital.

At the same time, in towns and cities across Germany, around 70,000 people took part in small, simultaneous demonstrations, some of which ended in scuffles and arrests.

Many take place on Monday nights.

By advertising them as Spaziergänge, or strolls, organisers not only seek to bypass Covid laws, which might prevent a mass gathering, but also to invoke nostalgically the symbolism of the Monday night strolls that were used by pro-democracy protesters opposed to the communist regime of the old East Germany.

The crowd in Berlin shouted Freiheit - freedom - as loudspeakers blasted out antivax songs, misinformation and conspiracy: "You'd be surprised by what our politicians and public broadcasters keep secret from you - and why!"

Some German politicians have acknowledged that they'll never persuade many of these people of the benefits and safety of the vaccine, let alone convince otherwise those who don't believe Covid exists.

But authorities are worried by the spread of conspiracy theories and the threat of radicalisation.

The number of recorded politically motivated crimes rose to its highest level in a decade last year.

"The big shift we've seen during the pandemic is that the more inherently violent ideas of overthrowing democracy which we've seen from the beginning turn more into concrete ideas," said Miro Dittrich, who researches right-wing extremism at the Centre for Monitoring, Analysis and Strategy.

He spends his days undercover online, monitoring networks like the messaging app Telegram.

"So it's not just 'we'll do a big demonstration in Berlin', it's 'what are the private addresses of these people who we think are responsible for this and we have to visit their homes'."

He pointed to an example from Telegram: a picture of the German health minister with text suggesting people storm his flat and "inject him with his own stuff".

While he believes it would be wrong to assume that all those who express such ideas online represent a physical danger, "we've seen its crucial for people who actually do offline violence to feel that they have a community that agrees with them".

Most Germans dismiss the conspiracy theories and the protesters who are, after all, very much in the minority. But the voice of discontent is loud. It's disruptive and it's persistent.

 

[James]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60202050

<b>Freedom Convoy: Trudeau calls trucker protest an 'insult to truth'</b>

Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has slammed protests in the capital city against Covid-19 vaccine mandates as "an insult to memory and truth".

Protestors are demonstrating for a third consecutive day over a cross-border vaccine mandate for truckers imposed by the Liberal government.

Ottawa police asked the public to avoid the downtown area on Monday, citing "traffic, noise and safety issues".

Some downtown stores, including a shopping mall, will also be closed.

Demonstrators at the so-called Freedom Convoy have been mostly peaceful but the behaviour of some members of the crowd has been strongly criticised.

Police have opened investigations into several reported incidents, including footage of a woman dancing on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier at the National War Memorial.

Nazi symbolism was seen on protest signs, some likening Covid-19 health measures to Jews under Nazi persecution.

Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center for Holocaust Studies criticised the use of those symbols as "a heinous form of Holocaust distortion".

Mr Trudeau said: "Freedom of expression, assembly and association are cornerstones of democracy, but Nazi symbolism, racist imagery and desecration of war memorials are not."

The prime minister refused to meet protestors.

"This is not the story of our pandemic, our country, our people," he said.

"My focus is standing with Canadians and getting through this pandemic."

But Candice Bergen, deputy leader of the Conservative Party, said the protesters represented millions who "have had enough of lockdowns and broken promises".

"They deserve to be heard and they deserve respect," she wrote on Twitter.

On Monday, Mr Trudeau also announced that he has tested positive for Covid-19 but is "feeling fine".

He said he would continue to work remotely this week while following public health guidelines.

The convoy began as a call to end a vaccine mandate imposed by the federal government on 15 January that would require unvaccinated Canadian truckers returning from across the US border to quarantine once they return home.

But it has since grown into a push to end all vaccine mandates nationwide and what supporters see as government overreach of Covid-19 restrictions.

A GoFundMe page to support the convoy has now raised over C$9m ($7m; £5.2m).

At an invite-only weekend news conference, Benjamin Dichter and Tamara Lich - the two organisers behind the page - said they aimed to create a "logistics nightmare" to put pressure on the Canadian government.

The crowd of demonstrators - the truckers and their supporters - were estimated to be in the thousands on Saturday as they gathered around parliament.

The crowd has since thinned but many protesters have indicated they plan to stay on until their demands are met.

Around 90% of Canada's 120,000 cross-border truckers are vaccinated, in line with the country's adult population.

Members of parliament are returning to the House of Commons on Monday after nearly two months on recess. though existing permissions for MPs to work remotely allowed some legislators to avoid the protesters that have converged nearby.

In an update from city officials on Monday afternoon, Mayor Jim Watson said protesters had "worn out their welcome" and that the events had been "disruptive" and extremely noisy for local residents.

The city's police chief, Peter Sloly, said it had been "four dangerous, difficult, dynamic days" for his forces dealing with "thousands of potential flash points" but that there had been "no riots, no injuries, no deaths".

He said that protests had "scaled down" in the past 12 hours and that he wanted "that trend to continue until this demonstration comes to a complete end".

Police have been in contact with the protest's core organisers, he noted.

Reports on social media indicate that truckers in the US may be planning a similar demonstration that would see them drive from California in the West to the country's capital in Washington DC.

 

[James]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60281088

<b>Canada trucker protest: Ottawa declares emergency</b>

<I>The mayor of Canada's capital Ottawa has declared a state of emergency in response to more than a week of truckers' protests against Covid restrictions.</I>

Jim Watson said the city was "completely out of control", with demonstrators outnumbering police.

He said the protests posed a threat to residents' safety.

There have also been reports of racial attacks.

Ottawa's centre has been paralysed, with vehicles and tents blocking roads.

The "Freedom Convoy" was sparked by the introduction last month of a new rule that all truckers must be vaccinated to cross the US-Canada border, but the protests have morphed into broader challenges to Covid health restrictions.

The protesters have since gathered in downtown Ottawa near Parliament Hill, and their demands have grown to include ending all such mandates nationwide and opposing the government of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

Speaking to Canadian radio station CFRA, Mr Watson said the protesters were behaving increasingly "insensitively" by continuously "blaring horns and sirens, [setting off] fireworks and turning it into a party".

"Clearly, we are outnumbered and we are losing this battle," he said, adding: "This has to be reversed - we have to get our city back."

The mayor did not give specific details about what measures he might impose, but police said on Sunday that they would step up enforcement, including possible arrests of those seeking to aid the protesters by bringing them supplies like fuel, toilet paper and food.

A state of emergency will give the city additional powers, including access to equipment required by frontline workers and emergency services.

Many Ottawa residents have objected to the demonstrations.

Complaints range from idling trucks that impede traffic and makeshift wooden structures in city parks to lost income and fears of harassment and even violence.

Police have said they are concerned about how the convoy has attracted far-right and extremist elements, and on Sunday confirmed they were dealing with more than 60 criminal investigations, with alleged offences including "mischief, thefts, hate crimes and property damage".

"There have been racist signs, there have been a lot of reports of people being assaulted and harassed if they wear a mask," Stephanie Carvon, Ottawa resident and former national security analyst for the Canadian government told the BBC.

She added that some organisers of the protest hold extremist views but have "successfully framed their actions in the name of the pandemic and ending the mandates, so they've earned the sympathy of a lot of Canadians who may not necessarily realise where this has come from".

One demonstrator who drove for hours to join the protest in Ottawa, Kimberly Ball, told the AFP news agency that the protest was "about our freedom".

"A couple of people we know, friends, lost their jobs because of these mandates," she said, adding that she had concerns about the safety and effectiveness of Covid vaccines.

Covid-19 vaccines have cut the risk of severe illness in those infected with the virus and serious side effects are extremely rare.

More than 80% of the eligible population is fully vaccinated and a recent poll showed a majority of Canadians favoured imposing more restrictions on the unvaccinated.

A recent opinion poll by Abacus Data suggested 68% of Canadians felt they had "very little in common" with the protesters, while 32% said they "had a lot in common" with the truckers.

 

[James]

<b>Covid protests: Hundreds fined and dozens arrested as convoy enters Paris</b>

Police have intercepted hundreds of vehicles trying to enter Paris as part of a protest against France's coronavirus regulations.

Tear gas was fired in the city as demonstrators defied an order banning the "Freedom Convoy".

Interior Minister Gérald Darmanin said more than 300 tickets had been handed out and 54 people arrested.

Authorities have deployed more than 7,000 officers over the next three days in a bid to stop the demonstrators.

Despite those efforts, some vehicles managed to arrive at the Arc de Triomphe in the city, and tear gas was fired at demonstrators on the nearby Champs-Élysées avenue.

The groups were inspired by the self-styled Canadian "Freedom Convoy" which has disrupted trade on the US border and occupied streets in Ottawa.

Similar demonstrations have started to spread around the world.

Austria and Belgium have banned such convoys from entering their capitals, with similar demonstrations also emerging in Australia, New Zealand and the Netherlands.

On Saturday, police in Paris said they had intercepted hundreds of vehicles heading into the city.

Two were allegedly carrying knives, hammers and petrol canisters, and five were allegedly carrying slingshots.

A video posted online by a journalist and shared by the police showed officers halting lines of vehicles on the city's ring road.

Police close to the Arc de Triomphe were seen diverting camper vans and other vehicles away from the area.

Demonstrators who oppose France's Covid pass, which requires people to show proof of vaccination before entering public venues, want to gather and blockade the capital across the weekend - suggesting such scenes may be repeated Sunday.

Convoys have organised online and appear to come from various political and ideological backgrounds, making it difficult to estimate how many vehicles might arrive in Paris each day.

They have also drawn in others angry at rising prices in France.

Some plan to continue on to Brussels, home of many European Union institutions, for further demonstrations on Monday.

City officials there have also banned the planned demonstration.

Prime Minister Jean Castex said on Friday that authorities would be "very firm" if the group tried to block the French capital.

"The right to demonstrate and to have an opinion are a constitutionally guaranteed right in our republic and in our democracy.

The right to block others or prevent coming and going is not," he told France 2.

Mr Castex also objected to the demonstrators calling themselves a "Freedom Convoy".

The word freedom should not be associated with "virulent attacks against vaccination", he said, because freedom is not "contaminating others".

France's protesters were inspired by the blockade in Canada, which has closed a crossing that sees $1.7bn (£1.2bn) of daily trade between Canada and the US.

Truckers there, objecting to a federal Covid vaccine mandate for those crossing the border into Canada, have occupied the Ambassador Bridge and camped on the streets of the capital Ottawa for days.

A court order ordering them to leave the bridge came into effect at 19:00 local time (midnight GMT) on Friday.

Copycat protests have also emerged elsewhere.

Some 10,000 protesters opposed to vaccine mandates arrived at Parliament House in the Australian capital Canberra on Saturday, local media reported, while police in New Zealand's capital Wellington arrested more than 100 people on Thursday who blocked roads in the city.


BBC

 

[James]

These protests are spreading across the globe nowadays.