Where are the young stars of our domestic cricket?

[Titan24]

So my genuine concern and question is why are the talented players and products which we found and groomed in domestic cricket are nowhere to be seen at international level.

Just to give some examples out of young players which have decent experience of domestic cricket and now might have been useful at international level.

Zafar Gohar (Left arm orthodox spinner; 24 years old, avgs 25 with 106 wickets in 28 matches and genuinely spins the bowl, decent bastman as well)

Ahmed Bashir (Right arm fast bowler; 23 years old, avgs 19 with 112 wickets in 25 matches and bowls impressive pace)

Ammad Butt (Right arm fast bowler, and handy lower order hitter; 24 years old, avgs 22 with bowl with 98 wickets in 29 matches and averages 22 with the bat and has the ability hit the ball well)

Zia Ul Haq (24 years old Left arm fast bowler, avgs 24, 196 wickets, decent pace)

Khushdil Shah (Batsman; 24 years old, avgs 47 with bat in list A, Sr of 98 and 8 centuries)

These were just to give few examples. I am sure there must be many others. Irrespective of the standard of domestic cricket, there is no replacement to actually play cricket, gain experience and learn. So why are the products like these are not being utilized in international cricket and we are fast tracking almost every performing youngster from PSL to international cricket? I dont mind fast tracking players, but there arent many figures like Imran or Wasim in our team now who can nurture them better than domestics.

Above mentioned names either dont get selected in PSL or dont get games. If PSL is now only criteria than how these player can come under radar of national selection? If there is emerging player category for young players U-23 in PSL, why is there no catrgory for U26, U27 players (Who have played no matches or maybe less than 5 for Pak) who are performers in domestics to be given atleast one spot in playing XI in PSL teams.

Above mentioned guys are young, have put in the hard yards as and now they know their game. Why are they nowhere to be seen?

I feel its not unfair only on these young domestic performers but also on youngsters like Shaheen, Shadab and Hasnain who could have easily played a season or two of first class cricket. Learned the basics of cricket through ups and downs and progressed to national side as much stronger characters.

 

[Chokli]

Selection criteria is a mess.

 

[Titan24]

Selection criteria is a mess.

Yes it is especially when few products we have groomed in recent times through domestics arent given any opportunities at international level.

 

[Syed1]

"Sorry can only select if related to me or perform in PSL. Deal with it "

 

[MMHS]

Selection criteria is a mess.

Also, the definition of “youngster” as well - you would have been damn disappointed if these players (in OP) were picked for PAK. Learning curve has an age factor, which is related to biological age, not certificate age. You can’t develop teen agers born as 5-6 years old - their output will be stuck after a certain level.

I give you a specific name - from last U19 WC and after that in this PSL, what I have seen, there is a new Ray Lindwall in making (height & structure perfectly matches, playing role as well), if Musa Khan is genuine 18 now ..... add 3 years in that, he might not play for PAK..... add 6 years on that - he might not have a decent FC career - what he is doing now is phenomenal for a 18 years old boy, very good for a 21 years old young man.... at best above acceptable for a 25 years old man, expected to represent national team.

 

[Ronaldo7]

Parents are reluctant to allow their kids to choose cricket as a career. Pak domestic cricket just doesn't give enough money unlike the english counties, Indian domestic (ranji) etc.
Education has become the priority.
I saw a 15 minute mini documentary on prithvi shaw when he was 15, he got a big sponsorship deal from SG cricket, he got a free flat from their local mp or something. This type of help is unheard of in pak. There's more security when you get so much money.

 

[Titan24]

Also, the definition of “youngster” as well - you would have been damn disappointed if these players (in OP) were picked for PAK. Learning curve has an age factor, which is related to biological age, not certificate age. You can’t develop teen agers born as 5-6 years old - their output will be stuck after a certain level.

I give you a specific name - from last U19 WC and after that in this PSL, what I have seen, there is a new Ray Lindwall in making (height & structure perfectly matches, playing role as well), if Musa Khan is genuine 18 now ..... add 3 years in that, he might not play for PAK..... add 6 years on that - he might not have a decent FC career - what he is doing now is phenomenal for a 18 years old boy, very good for a 21 years old young man.... at best above acceptable for a 25 years old man, expected to represent national team.

My emphasis wasnt on them being young but them having played decent amount of cricket and having experience under their belt.

With experience you learn more about cricket and also about your own game and the basics of the game.

Shaheen is really talented but at the moment he isnt even assure about his own game and doesnt understand the basics of the game well. He can give moments of brilliance but at the moment he is too inexperienced. He hasnt seen too many ups and downs in his small career to make him a more confident player.

On the other hand Zia Ul Haq arguably might have a lower ceiling but at this point of time he must be more self assured with decent amount pf FC cricket behind him. He wont be making the basic mistakes and would have seen ups and downs in his career.

Guys like Shaheen, Hasnain and Shadab would have been much more aware of their game if they had atleast 8-15 matches of FC cricket under their belt.

Everyone in SA knew how talented Rabada was but they didnt brought him to ODI and test cricket until he had some number of FC matches under his belt.

 

[Titan24]

I am definitely not writing Shaheen, Shadab and Hasnain off as they are surely talented but I think there graduation to international cricket could have been bit smoother.

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

Ammad Butt hit some gigantic sixes of Umer Khan and Sohail khan's bowling today. Clean strikes!!

Seems like Mickey missed the trick by investing in Faheem instead of Ammad!

 

[MMHS]

My emphasis wasnt on them being young but them having played decent amount of cricket and having experience under their belt.

With experience you learn more about cricket and also about your own game and the basics of the game.

Shaheen is really talented but at the moment he isnt even assure about his own game and doesnt understand the basics of the game well. He can give moments of brilliance but at the moment he is too inexperienced. He hasnt seen too many ups and downs in his small career to make him a more confident player.

On the other hand Zia Ul Haq arguably might have a lower ceiling but at this point of time he must be more self assured with decent amount pf FC cricket behind him. He wont be making the basic mistakes and would have seen ups and downs in his career.

Guys like Shaheen, Hasnain and Shadab would have been much more aware of their game if they had atleast 8-15 matches of FC cricket under their belt.

Everyone in SA knew how talented Rabada was but they didnt brought him to ODI and test cricket until he had some number of FC matches under his belt.

Bro, for that you need a robust domestic system which is just one level below international cricket, so that you have several players ready to step in just in case. In a national squad, at most you can accommodate 16 players, may be 25 in 3 formats over a year - that’s not enough. The ideal pyramid should be that below this 25, there is at least another 50 with almost similar skill level and mental maturity, waiting for their chances if someone above falters (of course there has to be a selection integrity).

But, if your premier domestic level is like grade 8, when international cricket is at the level of 2nd year engineering .... how these players can make a smooth transition between levels?? Most of the PAK players looks out of depth these days, whereas as I said in past at a time there were 5 County captains in PAK team!!!!

Don’t get me wrong - I watched today’s game almost by ball and taken it was a practice game, yet AFG players looked far more composed, confident, calculation & up to the task - that’s not because they are more educated, skilled or comes from better/richer background... rather they are groomed by the help of Indian system which brings the professional approach of a sportsman into their system. I am sure AFGs will lose the WC game as they don’t have anyone close to PAK’s too 4 batsmen or pacers like Amir, Hasan & Wahab (even Shaheen, Hasnain), but that’s skill gap, they are mentally better prepared.

Imran is spot on and he must crash it to dust if it’s required for a fresh start.

 

[Markhor]

I agree, this fast tracking of players after one half decent PSL (which's a second rate competition) must stop and consistent domestic players rewarded.

International cricket is no place for a kid to learn the basics of his craft, you should be close to the finished article when you debut. Shadab is crying out for two or three seasons of 4 day cricket to get him accustomed to long spells, yet he gets picked for our Test squads !

This fast tracking of kids who are not ready for international cricket just shows our desperation and lack of professionalism.

 

[Titan24]

I agree, this fast tracking of players after one half decent PSL (which's a second rate competition) must stop and consistent domestic players rewarded.

International cricket is no place for a kid to learn the basics of his craft, you should be close to the finished article when you debut. Shadab is crying out for two or three seasons of 4 day cricket to get him accustomed to long spells, yet he gets picked for our Test squads !

This fast tracking of kids who are not ready for international cricket just shows our desperation and lack of professionalism.

Exactly. Even WI made Oshane Thomas play one full season (around 8 FC matches) before transitioning to national team let alone teams like Ind, SA who only selected Kuldeep, Bumrah and Rabada once they had decent FC experience under their belt.

 

[Junaid_ahmed]

So my genuine concern and question is why are the talented players and products which we found and groomed in domestic cricket are nowhere to be seen at international level.

Just to give some examples out of young players which have decent experience of domestic cricket and now might have been useful at international level.

Zafar Gohar (Left arm orthodox spinner; 24 years old, avgs 25 with 106 wickets in 28 matches and genuinely spins the bowl, decent bastman as well)

Ahmed Bashir (Right arm fast bowler; 23 years old, avgs 19 with 112 wickets in 25 matches and bowls impressive pace)

Ammad Butt (Right arm fast bowler, and handy lower order hitter; 24 years old, avgs 22 with bowl with 98 wickets in 29 matches and averages 22 with the bat and has the ability hit the ball well)

Zia Ul Haq (24 years old Left arm fast bowler, avgs 24, 196 wickets, decent pace)

Khushdil Shah (Batsman; 24 years old, avgs 47 with bat in list A, Sr of 98 and 8 centuries)

These were just to give few examples. I am sure there must be many others. Irrespective of the standard of domestic cricket, there is no replacement to actually play cricket, gain experience and learn. So why are the products like these are not being utilized in international cricket and we are fast tracking almost every performing youngster from PSL to international cricket? I dont mind fast tracking players, but there arent many figures like Imran or Wasim in our team now who can nurture them better than domestics.

Above mentioned names either dont get selected in PSL or dont get games. If PSL is now only criteria than how these player can come under radar of national selection? If there is emerging player category for young players U-23 in PSL, why is there no catrgory for U26, U27 players (Who have played no matches or maybe less than 5 for Pak) who are performers in domestics to be given atleast one spot in playing XI in PSL teams.

Above mentioned guys are young, have put in the hard yards as and now they know their game. Why are they nowhere to be seen?

I feel its not unfair only on these young domestic performers but also on youngsters like Shaheen, Shadab and Hasnain who could have easily played a season or two of first class cricket. Learned the basics of cricket through ups and downs and progressed to national side as much stronger characters.

These stats are misleading in a sense that performance in pak domestic is a worst parameter to evaluate a player. Can you imagine Hammad azam has a bowling avg of 21 & 5 100s & 18 50s in domestic. But we have seen his potential in international.

 

[The Viper]

A lot of our players have shown initial promise but that then fizzles out. Its not taht they are bad players, but they need more experience. Like Hasnain had not played a List A game before being picked for Pakistan.

 

[HappyWarsFan]

Absolutely!! You are right, top FC performers have to be selected!! We have declined since we started picking PSL hacks for our team. We were a much better team in 2010-14. Where we picked more FC players. who performed well. Yes they can fail too but they are usually a lot more succesful.

Start rewarding domestics more!

Can't wait till Inzi, Mickey and Sarfraz are sacked - the 3 stooges.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Zafar Gohar should have been been in the squad. Team def needs a proper spinner. Hopefully after the World Cup some of thes guys will be part of the squad.

 

[Chokli]

Also, the definition of “youngster” as well - you would have been damn disappointed if these players (in OP) were picked for PAK. Learning curve has an age factor, which is related to biological age, not certificate age. You can’t develop teen agers born as 5-6 years old - their output will be stuck after a certain level.

I give you a specific name - from last U19 WC and after that in this PSL, what I have seen, there is a new Ray Lindwall in making (height & structure perfectly matches, playing role as well), if Musa Khan is genuine 18 now ..... add 3 years in that, he might not play for PAK..... add 6 years on that - he might not have a decent FC career - what he is doing now is phenomenal for a 18 years old boy, very good for a 21 years old young man.... at best above acceptable for a 25 years old man, expected to represent national team.

A team like this; there is no way they can plan long term.

The best solution for Pakistan would be short term selections and retaining maybe a few players.

World Cup to World Cup.

Fakhar Zaman made his name known when he debuted in Champions Trophy and he helped us win it.

Two years later he is a shell of his former self.

Long term planning has never really worked for Pakistan.

 

[Chokli]

This fast tracking of kids who are not ready for international cricket just shows our desperation and lack of professionalism.

It may have worked in the 80s and 90s but no place for that in the 2020s.

 

[Savak]

Absolutely!! You are right, top FC performers have to be selected!! We have declined since we started picking PSL hacks for our team. We were a much better team in 2010-14. Where we picked more FC players. who performed well. Yes they can fail too but they are usually a lot more succesful.

Start rewarding domestics more!

Can't wait till Inzi, Mickey and Sarfraz are sacked - the 3 stooges.

We were a better team from 2010 to 2014? How so? That team had the services of a pre 15 degree Ajmal, Hafeez, an Afridi who could blow hot and cold, in form Junaid and Irfan but our batting compared to now was a shambles and inspite of a solid bowling attack we languished at the bottom of the rankings.

Losing a pre 15 degree Ajmal, Hafeez and the two new ball rule which has eliminated reverse swing in ODI's is what has really neutralized Pakistan's ODI bowling.

 

[HappyWarsFan]

We were a better team from 2010 to 2014? How so? That team had the services of a pre 15 degree Ajmal, Hafeez, an Afridi who could blow hot and cold, in form Junaid and Irfan but our batting compared to now was a shambles and inspite of a solid bowling attack we languished at the bottom of the rankings.

Losing a pre 15 degree Ajmal, Hafeez and the two new ball rule which has eliminated reverse swing in ODI's is what has really neutralized Pakistan's ODI bowling.

We were a better team. We beat NZ in NZ in 2010/11 (3-2), lost 3-2 twice to an ATG South african team, and then eventually beat them 2-1 in SA.

Lost 3-2 in England in 2010, put a respectable performances despite it being right after the spot fixing saga.

Beat a very good SL team 3-2 in 2013/14, and 4-1 in 2011/12.

Won asia cup 2012.

Reached SF of the 2011 WC. (beating AUS along the way).

Imagine this current shambolic team doing this (besides that fluke CT win). The safraz/inzi/mickey + psl combo isn't working at all.

 

[Savak]

Bro, for that you need a robust domestic system which is just one level below international cricket, so that you have several players ready to step in just in case. In a national squad, at most you can accommodate 16 players, may be 25 in 3 formats over a year - that’s not enough. The ideal pyramid should be that below this 25, there is at least another 50 with almost similar skill level and mental maturity, waiting for their chances if someone above falters (of course there has to be a selection integrity).

But, if your premier domestic level is like grade 8, when international cricket is at the level of 2nd year engineering .... how these players can make a smooth transition between levels?? Most of the PAK players looks out of depth these days, whereas as I said in past at a time there were 5 County captains in PAK team!!!!

Don’t get me wrong - I watched today’s game almost by ball and taken it was a practice game, yet AFG players looked far more composed, confident, calculation & up to the task - that’s not because they are more educated, skilled or comes from better/richer background... rather they are groomed by the help of Indian system which brings the professional approach of a sportsman into their system. I am sure AFGs will lose the WC game as they don’t have anyone close to PAK’s too 4 batsmen or pacers like Amir, Hasan & Wahab (even Shaheen, Hasnain), but that’s skill gap, they are mentally better prepared.

Imran is spot on and he must crash it to dust if it’s required for a fresh start.

So you agree with Imran Khan's vision for regional cricket and getting rid of the sponsors playing their own team. I was listening to Wasim Khan and he mentioned the PCB is working on the following cricket structure modelled on the Australian system

1) Six Regional teams in Domestic Cricket

2) All the Cities in the region will have its own cricket team, and these cities will then feed the major regional teams on the basis of their performance in the Inter City tournament in every region. When selecting for the regional side, the regional selectors will have the discretion to choose the best players they deem fit

3) All the clubs in the various cities will have a club based tournament in the city, the clubs will feed the city team and the city team will have the discretion to select the best club players in the city.

 

[Savak]

We were a better team. We beat NZ in NZ in 2010/11 (3-2), lost 3-2 twice to an ATG South african team, and then eventually beat them 2-1 in SA.

Lost 3-2 in England in 2010, put a respectable performances despite it being right after the spot fixing saga.

Beat a very good SL team 3-2 in 2013/14, and 4-1 in 2011/12.

Won asia cup 2012.

Reached SF of the 2011 WC. (beating AUS along the way).

Imagine this current shambolic team doing this (besides that fluke CT win). The safraz/inzi/mickey + psl combo isn't working at all.

Again its about context, you take out Afridi, Gul, pre 15 degree Ajmal, Hafeez, Asif, Amir from the 2010 England series and the results will still be the same. We are suffering due to the abscence of quality in our cricket and the fact that the rest of the world is moving leaps and bounds in comparison to us.

 

[Chokli]

Again its about context, you take out Afridi, Gul, pre 15 degree Ajmal, Hafeez, Asif, Amir from the 2010 England series and the results will still be the same. We are suffering due to the abscence of quality in our cricket and the fact that the rest of the world is moving leaps and bounds in comparison to us.

Hafeez was just making his come back in that 2010 England series, he wasn't the player he would later onto become.

Asif & Amir didn't play the ODIs

Gul was at his peak.

Ajmal had only been with the team for about 2 years and was finally becoming a good LOI bowler.

 

[Titan24]

Some fast bowlers being named by some to come in early post WC in my opinion need to play atleast one full season of 4 day cricket and those are Shaheen Shah, Hasnain, Musa, Arshad Iqbal, Naseem Shah and Hassan needs to get his form back in FC cricket.

I think for the next 8-12 months in LOIs we need to stick with:

Amir
Haris Rauf
Shinwari (In ODIs only)
Amad Butt (Decent action and hits the hard, good slower balls and is a pretty good lower order hitter)
Zia Ul Haq (Swing the new ball decently at 140 +)
Ahmed Bashir (If he still has pace and has improved his accuracy)
Wahab (In T20s atleast)

Hassan Ali if he gets his form back and meanwhile young pace bowling group whould be playing domestics and working on their fitness.

Amongst spinners

Zafar Gohar (Is completely ready for LOIs as well as tests)
Raza Hassan (Is ready for LOIs as well as tests only if he has good fitness now)
Usama Mir (Can play LOIs but needs to prove himself in 4 day cricket with a good season)
Asghar (He is ready for all the formats if he has got his confidence and form back, was looking mediocre last year in PSL)
Nawaz (He is decent all rounder, nothing exceptional but decent and I never understood so much hatred towards him by some, so he should be in the mix of LOIs)

While Shadab and Umer Khan should ideally play one full 4 day season and then will be fully developed for international cricket.


What surprises me is that the products which were completely developed by now were not even tried like Zafar Gohar, Amad Butt, Zia Ul Haq and Ahmed Bashir. We should have gone for these guys atleast an year ago while the young lot should have played all the FC matches. There is no replacement of playing a full FC season in today's era.

 

[unemployedgm]

There are better players in our domestic cricket structure than people think.

I recently had an opportunity to scout the Pakistan Under19 Tour and was thoroughly impressed by Haider Ali. There are others like Saud Shakeel who are genuine middle order batsman. Unfortunately there are no established pathways for these players.

 

[Saj]

Wasim Akram was recently quoted as saying standards in domestic cricket are poor and there aren't any players who stand-out.

 

[Titan24]

Wasim Akram was recently quoted as saying standards in domestic cricket are poor and there aren't any players who stand-out.

I am not sure how much domestic cricket Wasim Akram is following. Yes domestic cricket should be improved but to see a talent in someone you need a good eye. Imran and Javed didnt have to see Wasim Akram in QAE final rather they knew how good he was by just looking at him bowling in a club.

I guess someone like Mohammad Wasim or Rashid Latif etc who have been involved in domestic cricket in recent times can shed better light on that there is absolutely no talent in domestics or there are few players who can make it to the top.

While Mohammad Abbas and Imam are not world beaters but they are domestic products of the last few years. Yes Imam played U19 but FC cricket is where he was groomed.

There are few names like Saud Shakeel, Zafar Gohar, Amad Butt etc who are decent talents and can make it through.

 

[Titan24]

There are better players in our domestic cricket structure than people think.

I recently had an opportunity to scout the Pakistan Under19 Tour and was thoroughly impressed by Haider Ali. There are others like Saud Shakeel who are genuine middle order batsman. Unfortunately there are no established pathways for these players.

Exactly. You have to find young players and keep them in radar and wait for their breakthrough domestic season. Rabada is one such example who was a known commodity at U19 level but only got into SA side after his first season of domestic where he got success.

 

[Surya Kiran]

Parents are reluctant to allow their kids to choose cricket as a career. Pak domestic cricket just doesn't give enough money unlike the english counties, Indian domestic (ranji) etc.
Education has become the priority.
I saw a 15 minute mini documentary on prithvi shaw when he was 15, he got a big sponsorship deal from SG cricket, he got a free flat from their local mp or something. This type of help is unheard of in pak. There's more security when you get so much money.

Well, that was because in Mumbai Cricket, there is a tradition to help such talent when identified very early. He was already making a splash in Mumbai Cricket circles by the age of 8. Another present day example is Yashaswi Jaiswal who is part of current India U19 set up.

 

[Surya Kiran]

I am not sure how much domestic cricket Wasim Akram is following. Yes domestic cricket should be improved but to see a talent in someone you need a good eye. Imran and Javed didnt have to see Wasim Akram in QAE final rather they knew how good he was by just looking at him bowling in a club.

I guess someone like Mohammad Wasim or Rashid Latif etc who have been involved in domestic cricket in recent times can shed better light on that there is absolutely no talent in domestics or there are few players who can make it to the top.

While Mohammad Abbas and Imam are not world beaters but they are domestic products of the last few years. Yes Imam played U19 but FC cricket is where he was groomed.

There are few names like Saud Shakeel, Zafar Gohar, Amad Butt etc who are decent talents and can make it through.

What about Umar Amin? He was thought of very highly as a stylish left handed batsman in 2010