Which was the best pace attack of all-time?

[Lahorijat]

I have only mentioned the ones that I can remember. Looking to my list it appears there have been many strong attacks. I likely missed some. Not sure how to dissect who is the best. Interested to see other thoughts
Pak - Wasim, waqar, shoaib, Razzaq, gul
Pak - Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Aaqib Javed
SA - Donald, pollock, De Villiers, Kallis, Klusener
SA - Steyn, Morkel, Philander, Rabada
Aus - McGrath, Brett lee, Gillespie, Kasprowicz
Aus - Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood, Pattinson
WI - Marshal, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop
WI - Croft, Roberts, garner, holding
IND - Bumrah, Shami, Ishant, Yadav, Siraj
NZ - Boult, Southee, Jameson, Wagner
ENG - Flintoff, harminson, Hoggard, Jones
ENG - Anderson, Broad, Archer, Wood, Woakes

 

[Justcrazy]

WI - Croft, Roberts, garner, holding

 

[Ab Fan]

You missed

Lillee
Thomson
Pascoe

 

[wrongun]

You missed

Lillee
Thomson
Pascoe

Walker was in the team with them too. So you had 3 genuine fast quicks + Max Walker who bowled medium fast swingers. He wasn't bad either- 138 test wickets at 27.5. Surely helped by the company he bowled with but people would play a few shots once Walker came on & he could swing it both ways on a good day & pick up a few wickets.

 

[Last Monetarist]

I'd go with the Roberts, Holding, Croft, and Garner quartet as the best pace attack of all-time.

The Pakistani attack of the nineties was great on paper, but ultimately test performances didn't match up to reputation for whatever reason.

 

[Saj]

You won't get much better than:

WI - Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop
WI - Croft, Roberts, Garner, Holding

Relentless pace and aggression. No breathing space for the batsmen at all.

 

[AMSS]

You won't get much better than:

WI - Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop
WI - Croft, Roberts, Garner, Holding

Relentless pace and aggression. No breathing space for the batsmen at all.

Stats bear this out.

From Marshall's debut year in 1978 to Ambrose retirement in 2000, the collective Windies bowling attack averaged 27.xx for 23 years.

The next best is AUS from 1992 to 2007 averaging 27.xx - for 16 continuous years.

Although, the answer may surprise everyone looking for an attack with sub-25 average for the longest continuous stretch

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Stats bear this out.

From Marshall's debut year in 1978 to Ambrose retirement in 2000, the collective Windies bowling attack averaged 27.xx for 23 years.

The next best is AUS from 1992 to 2007 averaging 27.xx - for 16 continuous years.

Although, the answer may surprise everyone looking for an attack with sub-25 average for the longest continuous stretch

England Circa 1900?

 

[Ashmal]

Hard to look past that WI attack of 80s

 

[Ashmal]

Stats bear this out.

From Marshall's debut year in 1978 to Ambrose retirement in 2000, the collective Windies bowling attack averaged 27.xx for 23 years.

The next best is AUS from 1992 to 2007 averaging 27.xx - for 16 continuous years.

Although, the answer may surprise everyone looking for an attack with sub-25 average for the longest continuous stretch

IIRC, Indian attack have been avg below 25 in last 3 years....let's see how long can continue that run

 

[AMSS]

IIRC, Indian attack have been avg below 25 in last 3 years....let's see how long can continue that run

6 years. They have averaged 24.18 for the last 6 years.

 

[Junaids]

You won't get much better than:

WI - Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop
WI - Croft, Roberts, Garner, Holding

Relentless pace and aggression. No breathing space for the batsmen at all.

Yep.

People forget just how superb Ian Bishop was before his back fractures.

Honorable mention though for:

Van Der Bijl
Le Roux
Procter
Rice

 

[Kaddy]

West Indies.

 

[Ashmal]

6 years. They have averaged 24.18 for the last 6 years.

Great achievement

 

[Robert]

Either Roberts-Holding-Croft-Garner or Marshall-Garner-Holding-Patterson.

 

[Rajdeep]

I have not watched West Indies in 80s as was not born back then but were they really that good or most of it is hyping the past due to sheer nostalgia?

From the time I have been following cricket, I would rate the bowling attack as follows:

1) McGrath-Lee-Gillespie
2) Steyn-Philander-Morkel-Rabada
3) Bumrah-Shami-Ishant-Siraj
4) Amir-Asif-Gul-Razzaq

 

[Sir Alex]

This current Indian lineup is easily the best, only countered by the great WI quartets

 

[Bewal Express]

Garner, Marshall, Holding and take your pick

 

[Rightarmfast]

The current Indian bowling unit is the best. With individual bowlers not being as threatening as some other legends of the past, but as a unit, they are relentless and result-oriented and the best.

 

[Buffet]

I have only mentioned the ones that I can remember. Looking to my list it appears there have been many strong attacks. I likely missed some. Not sure how to dissect who is the best. Interested to see other thoughts
Pak - Wasim, waqar, shoaib, Razzaq, gul
Pak - Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Aaqib Javed
SA - Donald, pollock, De Villiers, Kallis, Klusener
SA - Steyn, Morkel, Philander, Rabada
Aus - McGrath, Brett lee, Gillespie, Kasprowicz
Aus - Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood, Pattinson
WI - Marshal, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop
WI - Croft, Roberts, garner, holding
IND - Bumrah, Shami, Ishant, Yadav, Siraj
NZ - Boult, Southee, Jameson, Wagner
ENG - Flintoff, harminson, Hoggard, Jones
ENG - Anderson, Broad, Archer, Wood, Woakes

Put Avg and SR for each unit.

 

[Mesozoic]

Dale Steyn
Morne Morkel
Vernon Philander
Kyle Abbott

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

Yep.

People forget just how superb Ian Bishop was before his back fractures.

Honorable mention though for:

Van Der Bijl
Le Roux
Procter
Rice

That's a good pickup....

If not for injuries, Ian bishoip would have been up there with the highest....the same with guys like Shane Bond, Bruce Reid possibly Simon Jones, ryan harris, mahamad Zahid

And good that you've mentioned that SAF generation who missed out...cricket was poorer for this...

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

If there was one pace attack which could turn 110/1 into 165 AO and for the sheer ability , for sheer talent, for the ;possibilty of doing something deemed impossible.
I'd go 2 W's with any of IK, Shoiab, Razaak, gul, etc.
Else Roberts, Marshall, Holding, Garner would be a handful for any line up , any conditions.
Throw in Croft, patterson, bishop, ambrose etc - WI beats any bowling line up by a distance.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

WI - Marshal, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop is the best, it had two of the top 5 greatest pace bowlers of all time.

Marshal and Ambrose both are good enough to be selected for GOAT team, let alone ATG. I don't see any other lineup having two bowlers of GOAT caliber in one team.

 

[Robert]

I have not watched West Indies in 80s as was not born back then but were they really that good or most of it is hyping the past due to sheer nostalgia?

I saw them. They were terrible. England featuring Gower, Lamb, Botham and later Gooch got wiped 0-5 by them home and away. After the second Blackwash, it looked like some of the England players didn’t want to play cricket any more.

 

[topspin]

I have only mentioned the ones that I can remember. Looking to my list it appears there have been many strong attacks. I likely missed some. Not sure how to dissect who is the best. Interested to see other thoughts
Pak - Wasim, waqar, shoaib, Razzaq, gul
Pak - Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Aaqib Javed
SA - Donald, pollock, De Villiers, Kallis, Klusener
SA - Steyn, Morkel, Philander, Rabada
Aus - McGrath, Brett lee, Gillespie, Kasprowicz
Aus - Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood, Pattinson
WI - Marshal, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop
WI - Croft, Roberts, garner, holding
IND - Bumrah, Shami, Ishant, Yadav, Siraj
NZ - Boult, Southee, Jameson, Wagner
ENG - Flintoff, harminson, Hoggard, Jones
ENG - Anderson, Broad, Archer, Wood, Woakes

Don't ever remember Gul playing with Wasim and Waqar.

 

[mastimasti]

6 years. They have averaged 24.18 for the last 6 years.

Where do you get these stats? I can never seem to get the right info on statsguru when doing team analysis. Any help?

 

[mastimasti]

Something I did manage to pull up from statsguru is overall pace bowling averages for all test playing nations.

Interestingly Ireland have the best, admittedly this is in a single year of test cricket with 8 pace bowlers used. A very small population.

The next best is South Africa from their debut in 1889 till now have averaged 27.75 and Australia 27.99.
After that, England, West Indies and Pakistan wrap up the 29-30 range of bowling averages, everything below is 31+.

So, how come South Africa are rarely spoken about in the same breathy, romantic tone as the Windies or Pakistan?

 

[AMSS]

Where do you get these stats? I can never seem to get the right info on statsguru when doing team analysis. Any help?

 

[AMSS]

West Indies too had a glorious run from 1981 to 1988 across 63 matches where they averaged under 25 as a team.

 

[Smbhayi]

Did Gul played with WWs? Dont think so..

 

[OMB]

I have only mentioned the ones that I can remember. Looking to my list it appears there have been many strong attacks. I likely missed some. Not sure how to dissect who is the best. Interested to see other thoughts
Pak - Wasim, waqar, shoaib, Razzaq, gul
Pak - Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Aaqib Javed
SA - Donald, pollock, De Villiers, Kallis, Klusener
SA - Steyn, Morkel, Philander, Rabada
Aus - McGrath, Brett lee, Gillespie, Kasprowicz
Aus - Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood, Pattinson
WI - Marshal, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop
WI - Croft, Roberts, garner, holding
IND - Bumrah, Shami, Ishant, Yadav, Siraj
NZ - Boult, Southee, Jameson, Wagner
ENG - Flintoff, harminson, Hoggard, Jones
ENG - Anderson, Broad, Archer, Wood, Woakes

1) WI - Marshal, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop - mostly coz of Marshal
2) Pak - Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Aaqib Javed (fav being Wasim)
3) Aus - McGrath, Brett lee, Gillespie, Kasprowicz

India - I don't think they have reached their peak yet so watching with interest. Probably need more bite in Ishant and Shami.

 

[Last Monetarist]

View attachment 111434

These numbers are slightly skewed by the fact that they include Ashwin and Jadeja's exploits at home, so can't really be used as a direct comparison with the performances of the West Indies bowling quartet.

 

[Last Monetarist]

There's no doubt though that the Indian fast bowlers have been excellent over the last five years, pace bowling statistics as follows:



For comparison, the West Indies at their peak during the first five years of the 1980s:

 

[AMSS]

These numbers are slightly skewed by the fact that they include Ashwin and Jadeja's exploits at home, so can't really be used as a direct comparison with the performances of the West Indies bowling quartet.

I mean, if I were to choose simply the pace bowling option, that average goes from 24.18 to 24.60. But just like the average for AUS attack during their dominant days cannot ignore Warne, I don't see why India's record would be skewed by including their champ spinners. Are we now going to negate this advantage for ENG by excluding Anderson-Broad's record in cloudy/seaming home conditions?

 

[street cricketer]

I mean, if I were to choose simply the pace bowling option, that average goes from 24.18 to 24.60. But just like the average for AUS attack during their dominant days cannot ignore Warne, I don't see why India's record would be skewed by including their champ spinners. Are we now going to negate this advantage for ENG by excluding Anderson-Broad's record in cloudy/seaming home conditions?

No, but the point is that this thread is purely about comparing the pace attacks of respective countries across eras and not "bowling attacks" per se which would include the spin attack too.

The Indian bowling attack is easily the best in the world when you include both spinners and pacers, but even comparing purely the fast bowling attacks of different countries, this Indian pace attack ranks among the best in the world.

The average of all pace attacks in the last 5 years:



The average of all pace attacks away from home in the same period:



I'm not sure how this attack ranks alongside the great pace attacks of the previous eras, but the Indian pace attack of the last 5 years would surely be up there among the best, particularly away from home.

 

[street cricketer]

Perhaps if someone can point out the best 5 year periods for the following attacks:

1. Windies quartet
2. The 80s Pakistan attack
3. The 90s Pakistan attack
4. The McGrath Australian attack
5. Saffer attack having Steyn

I can post their respective stats for their best 5 year period. One for the cricket history nerds out there..

 

[OMB]

No, but the point is that this thread is purely about comparing the pace attacks of respective countries across eras and not "bowling attacks" per se which would include the spin attack too.

The Indian bowling attack is easily the best in the world when you include both spinners and pacers, but even comparing purely the fast bowling attacks of different countries, this Indian pace attack ranks among the best in the world.

The average of all pace attacks in the last 5 years:

View attachment 111438

The average of all pace attacks away from home in the same period:

View attachment 111439

I'm not sure how this attack ranks alongside the great pace attacks of the previous eras, but the Indian pace attack of the last 5 years would surely be up there among the best, particularly away from home.

yes it would be very difficult to compare performances across the eras for "pace bowling" and that too "away from home" is even more difficult as pitch awareness and curator role has become more prominent over the years.

To explain - WI pace quartet were considered greats because of their excellent overall team performances. True they were menacing and difficult to bat against but please factor in the overall balance between bat and bowl during those days. It was difficult to bat as helmet were rarely used. The balance was always tilted in the favour of the bowlers. Test openers were a really special breed and batting mainly revolved around 5 batsmen. Tailenders were really poor batsmen so it was matter of picking 5 wickets for the bowlers.

In perspective, the bowlers now have their jobs more difficult than yesteryears bowlers. The game is batsmen friendly and people want to see boundaries scored. There are better bats and tougher rules against bouncers. No balls and over rates are more strictly monitored. The tail enders are trained to bat too. Worst of all, cameras and umpires are very active and keep checking the ball conditions frequently.

 

[mastimasti]

View attachment 111434

Ahh you added in specific dates. Fair enough but why those specific dates? Theer may be various periods for various bowling line ups for any average one wishes for. The poster below you just highlighted an even longer period for the Windies.

Also, did you qualify with pace bowling?

Because if one groups by just pace bowling, as is the thread topic, India's average is still very good 24.60 but it's not the best. South Africa are averaging 23.78 and Ireland 24.22 (As mentioned before very small sample size).

Is South Africa's the best bowling average, for a group of pace bowlers over 6 years? Why not look at 5 years or 10 years?

 

[mastimasti]

Something I found very interesting, the best pace bowling averages of the 2010s -



Let's exclude Ireland and Afghanistan as the sample sizes are too small, the only team with a sub 25 average are the mighty Saffers and that's not a hard guess, with the greatness of Steyn and Morkel in tests, along with Philander and later Rabada. Australia and England are the only other teams with a sub 30 average and once again, not a surprise yet the Kiwis with a string of good bowlers and favorable conditions at home. India averaging just a fraction more is a great achievement considering the bowlers and the conditions.

If we look at the previous decade, to complete the 21st century analysis:



I think the fact that no team has a pace bowling attack averaging less than 25 indicates the dearth in quality as the likes of Wasim, Waqar, Pollock, Donald and co eventually left the scene. It also potentially indicates a better era for test batting (Tendy, Ponty, Kallis etc).

 

[Last Monetarist]

Perhaps if someone can point out the best 5 year periods for the following attacks:

1. Windies quartet
2. The 80s Pakistan attack
3. The 90s Pakistan attack
4. The McGrath Australian attack
5. Saffer attack having Steyn

I can post their respective stats for their best 5 year period. One for the cricket history nerds out there..

I've run the numbers for each block of 5 years starting from 1975 (emergence of Andy Roberts) till 2007 (retirement of McGrath).

The best performance by the West Indies corresponded with Malcolm Marshall's peak years between 1984 and 1988:



Away record during the period:



The West Indies remained indisputably the best attack in the world till about 1990 and the emergence of Waqar Younis. Pakistan's statistical record was most impressive for that 5 year period:



Pakistan's away record also confirms their dominance during that period:



Pakistan's fast bowling superiority matched the pattern of Waqar's career and gave way to South Africa and Australia as soon as Waqar declined after 1994.

The South African and Australian pace attacks were generally neck and neck, but their respective bowling averages were on the high side (above 26) till the retirements of Donald (2002) and McGrath (2007) respectively. The 5 year block between 1996 and 2000 was the exception, with Australia perhaps shading it due to away performances.

 

[AMSS]

The long and the short is, only two teams have had sub-25 average over a long-ish period of time - West Indies and India.

Peak years of Pakistan and AUS never had a sustained run of sub-25 average over 6 years.

 

[street cricketer]

I've run the numbers for each block of 5 years starting from 1975 (emergence of Andy Roberts) till 2007 (retirement of McGrath).

The best performance by the West Indies corresponded with Malcolm Marshall's peak years between 1984 and 1988:

View attachment 111442

Away record during the period:

View attachment 111441

The West Indies remained indisputably the best attack in the world till about 1990 and the emergence of Waqar Younis. Pakistan's statistical record was most impressive for that 5 year period:

View attachment 111445

Pakistan's away record also confirms their dominance during that period:

View attachment 111444

Pakistan's fast bowling superiority matched the pattern of Waqar's career and gave way to South Africa and Australia as soon as Waqar declined after 1994.

The South African and Australian pace attacks were generally neck and neck, but their respective bowling averages were on the high side (above 26) till the retirements of Donald (2002) and McGrath (2007) respectively. The 5 year block between 1996 and 2000 was the exception, with Australia perhaps shading it due to away performances.

View attachment 111447

View attachment 111446

Thanks for the stats mate..

The Indian attack seems to be up there with the best attacks ever particularly when playing away from home, but the Windies quartet just seem to be in a different league even away from home.

As an aside, the Pak attack has crazy stats in the 5 year period you have displayed. I just had a look into the country wise breakdown and they seem to have absolutely destroyed the Kiwis and the Lankans during that period. Perhaps the only semblance of criticism I can make is that they seem to have underperformed by their lofty standards in Australia. But such a gun attack it was - I presume it was Imran (not sure if he was playing test cricket then), Wasim and Waqar doing their magic.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Peak years of Pakistan and AUS never had a sustained run of sub-25 average over 6 years.

Not quite, as both Pakistan and Australia managed to maintain sub-25 averages over a 6-year period as well.

Pakistan 1990-1995



However, if one looks at away performances only, then Pakistan's collective fast bowling average slipped slightly below 26 for the period and their attack was less potent than the West Indies.



Australia 1995 - 2000



Australia's fast bowlers were able to maintain an average hovering just above 24 away from home during that 6-year period as well.

 

[street cricketer]

yes it would be very difficult to compare performances across the eras for "pace bowling" and that too "away from home" is even more difficult as pitch awareness and curator role has become more prominent over the years.

To explain - WI pace quartet were considered greats because of their excellent overall team performances. True they were menacing and difficult to bat against but please factor in the overall balance between bat and bowl during those days. It was difficult to bat as helmet were rarely used. The balance was always tilted in the favour of the bowlers. Test openers were a really special breed and batting mainly revolved around 5 batsmen. Tailenders were really poor batsmen so it was matter of picking 5 wickets for the bowlers.

In perspective, the bowlers now have their jobs more difficult than yesteryears bowlers. The game is batsmen friendly and people want to see boundaries scored. There are better bats and tougher rules against bouncers. No balls and over rates are more strictly monitored. The tail enders are trained to bat too. Worst of all, cameras and umpires are very active and keep checking the ball conditions frequently.

Tbh it is really difficult to compare across eras. I've always believed in the thumb rule of 'if you were great in your era, you'd have been great in any era'.

That said, I did look into the decade wise breakdown of aggregate batting average of all batsmen and according to it:

90s was the most difficult for batting and 2000s was the easiest for batting.

Difficulty wise, decades ranked as:

90s>80s>2010s>2000s.

 

[AMSS]

Not quite, as both Pakistan and Australia managed to maintain sub-25 averages over a 6-year period as well.


However, if one looks at away performances only, then Pakistan's collective fast bowling average slipped slightly below 26 for the period and their attack was less potent than the West Indies.


Australia's fast bowlers were able to maintain an average hovering just above 24 away from home during that 6-year period as well

I understand the thread specifically mentions pace bowlers but like I mentioned earlier, I am clearly speaking of the whole attack. Whether you feel it somehow ''skews'' numbers is your take and that is fine.

I am talking about the potency and threat of the whole attack. In West Indies' case, this luckily covers their whole attack but not so with others. If we are going to speak of the formiable AUS attack, there's no point taking Warne out of it. He was half of that attack.

Of course, limiting to quicks also ''skews'' the number against certain teams that are favorable to spin. It's sort of meaningless to compare Lanka and Saffer attacks after taking spin out of equation.

So yeah, I am speaking of the whole attack and not just a part of it. Which is where West Indies and India stand in a league of their own.

 

[Last Monetarist]

I understand the thread specifically mentions pace bowlers but like I mentioned earlier, I am clearly speaking of the whole attack. Whether you feel it somehow ''skews'' numbers is your take and that is fine.

I am talking about the potency and threat of the whole attack. In West Indies' case, this luckily covers their whole attack but not so with others. If we are going to speak of the formiable AUS attack, there's no point taking Warne out of it. He was half of that attack.

Of course, limiting to quicks also ''skews'' the number against certain teams that are favorable to spin. It's sort of meaningless to compare Lanka and Saffer attacks after taking spin out of equation.

So yeah, I am speaking of the whole attack and not just a part of it. Which is where West Indies and India stand in a league of their own.

We are not talking about the potency of the whole attack here though, nor is there any argument that the Indian attack is not one of the all-time great attacks.

The point is about picking the best pace attack, bringing spinners into it is a tangent. For what it's worth, I'd rank the current Indian pace attack above all apart from the West Indies 80s attack and the Australian mid-90s to early 2000s attack.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Does this thread also take into account the batting line ups of opposition teams?

 

[Ab Fan]

South African attack of Donald, Pollock, de Villiers and Kallis between 1995-2000 is right up there as the greatest pace attack of all-time.

Both Donald and Pollock averaged 20-21 over the decade and performed in all conditions and all over the world. They went on to beat Indian team in India with a part time bits and pieces spinner, Nicky Boje.

Unfortunately, that batting lineup was just okayish with Kallis and Kirsten only World class batsman.

 

[Rajdeep]

Does this thread also take into account the batting line ups of opposition teams?

Dont think so as its a relative comparison.

Otherwise its pretty difficult to compare cross eras without factoring things like:

Uncovered pitches in the past
Bodyline rules
Lack of cameras
Bigger bats in modern day
How many wickets taken of top order batsmen vs tailenders etc.

Think what OP is alluding to is based on the stats we have in the scoresheet, rate the best bowling unit. But as well all know cricket is more than just stats but recon thats not the point to discuss in this thread.

 

[Buffet]

We are not talking about the potency of the whole attack here though, nor is there any argument that the Indian attack is not one of the all-time great attacks.

The point is about picking the best pace attack, bringing spinners into it is a tangent. For what it's worth, I'd rank the current Indian pace attack above all apart from the West Indies 80s attack and the Australian mid-90s to early 2000s attack.

Agree here. I don't know where to rank the Indian pace attack, but overall Indian bowling attack is comfortably one of the ATG attacks. In the last 5-6 years, they have performed in all kinds of conditions. Great pace attack and great spin attack.

The rank of the Indian pace attack will be easier to tell after few years, but so far their performance has been right up there with the best pace units.

Often we put lots of weight if the pace unit has ATG bowlers in it, but ATG stature often comes when bowlers are close to retirement. Another point - Bowling units without a weak link may be harder to face when compared to one ATG, one good, and 2 ordinary pacers. I suspect that's what we are seeing in those sub 25 avg numbers for the Indian pace unit despite none of the pacers are ATG right now.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

It's really weird how nobody ever talks about South Africa. South Africa in 2010s had Steyn, Philander, Rabada and Morkel. Those 4 could easily be the GOAT bowling lineup stat wise, alongside the WI ones from 70s and 80s. South Africa in 90s also had Donald and Pollock, both of whom are ATG bowlers themselves.

South Africa is criminally underrated, they had like 5 bowlers with sub 23 average in last 30 years. Only West Indies can match them.

 

[Buffet]

It's really weird how nobody ever talks about South Africa. South Africa in 2010s had Steyn, Philander, Rabada and Morkel. Those 4 could easily be the GOAT bowling lineup stat wise, alongside the WI ones from 70s and 80s. South Africa in 90s also had Donald and Pollock, both of whom are ATG bowlers themselves.

South Africa is criminally underrated, they had like 5 bowlers with sub 23 average in last 30 years. Only West Indies can match them.

Donald and Pollock in the second half of 90s were simply great. The problem was bowlers after them. Klusener was averaging near 40. McMillan was averaging near 50. Kallis was decent with avg of 28-29.

 

[PakLFC]

West Indies one from the 1980's was awesome. Marshall, Garner, Holding and Harper being the spinner.

 

[Mamoon]

WI - Marshal, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop is the best, it had two of the top 5 greatest pace bowlers of all time.

Marshal and Ambrose both are good enough to be selected for GOAT team, let alone ATG. I don't see any other lineup having two bowlers of GOAT caliber in one team.

I don’t think Marshall and Ambrose can be considered part of the same attack because there wasn’t a big enough overlap in their careers.

Ambrose made his debut at the end of Marshall’s career - Marshall is an 80’s bowler and Ambrose is a 90’s bowler.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Perhaps if someone can point out the best 5 year periods for the following attacks:

1. Windies quartet
2. The 80s Pakistan attack
3. The 90s Pakistan attack
4. The McGrath Australian attack
5. Saffer attack having Steyn

I can post their respective stats for their best 5 year period. One for the cricket history nerds out there..

I don't know about best but between Jan 1990 and Jan 1995, Pakistan pace attack averaged 21.97 That might be their best because of Waqar's peak

 

[James]

It's really weird how nobody ever talks about South Africa. South Africa in 2010s had Steyn, Philander, Rabada and Morkel. Those 4 could easily be the GOAT bowling lineup stat wise, alongside the WI ones from 70s and 80s. South Africa in 90s also had Donald and Pollock, both of whom are ATG bowlers themselves.

South Africa is criminally underrated, they had like 5 bowlers with sub 23 average in last 30 years. Only West Indies can match them.

It’s because the SA team never truly dominated cricket like West Indies and then Australia used to, and India might go on to do. SA had some strong away wins in Aus and Eng in their late 00s/early 2010s peak, but many of their other home and away meets at this time ended up in drawn series.

 

[Robert]

South African attack of Donald, Pollock, de Villiers and Kallis between 1995-2000 is right up there as the greatest pace attack of all-time.

Donald and Pollock yes, but De Villiers only played eighteen tests, while Kallis was a stock bowler with padded stats from minnowbashing.

 

[mastimasti]

I've run the numbers for each block of 5 years starting from 1975 (emergence of Andy Roberts) till 2007 (retirement of McGrath).

The best performance by the West Indies corresponded with Malcolm Marshall's peak years between 1984 and 1988:

View attachment 111442

Away record during the period:

View attachment 111441

The West Indies remained indisputably the best attack in the world till about 1990 and the emergence of Waqar Younis. Pakistan's statistical record was most impressive for that 5 year period:

View attachment 111445

Pakistan's away record also confirms their dominance during that period:

View attachment 111444

Pakistan's fast bowling superiority matched the pattern of Waqar's career and gave way to South Africa and Australia as soon as Waqar declined after 1994.

The South African and Australian pace attacks were generally neck and neck, but their respective bowling averages were on the high side (above 26) till the retirements of Donald (2002) and McGrath (2007) respectively. The 5 year block between 1996 and 2000 was the exception, with Australia perhaps shading it due to away performances.

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Good analysis but you're missing out an entire year each time.

But it easily shows that in the latter half of the 20th century the three best pace bowling units were Windies, Pakistan and either of SA or Aus. It makes sense that they had the most iconic pace men. The Windies were remarkable of course.

 

[mastimasti]

The long and the short is, only two teams have had sub-25 average over a long-ish period of time - West Indies and India.

Peak years of Pakistan and AUS never had a sustained run of sub-25 average over 6 years.

 

[mastimasti]

Unfortunately I can not edit the post above :/ BUT Pakistan have had 7 years with a sub 24 average let alone sub 25

As an Indian, we must be honest that out pace attack is not great and never has been. It has been good in recent times but that too against some of the most fragile batting line ups in recent memory but let's enjoy it instead of going overboard. Once we produce pace bowlers averaging less than 25 and 200+ wickets then we can start spouting we are the greatest of all time.

 

[street cricketer]

Unfortunately I can not edit the post above :/ BUT Pakistan have had 7 years with a sub 24 average let alone sub 25

As an Indian, we must be honest that out pace attack is not great and never has been. It has been good in recent times but that too against some of the most fragile batting line ups in recent memory but let's enjoy it instead of going overboard. Once we produce pace bowlers averaging less than 25 and 200+ wickets then we can start spouting we are the greatest of all time.

Let me breakdown the stats you have provided.

The top 4 teams in the period you have mentioned (01 Jan 1990-31 Dec 1996) ranked by their W/L ratios:

Aus - 2.133
SA - 1.857
Pak - 1.846
WI - 1.571

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...1990;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

Bowling averages of all pace attacks against the top 4 teams from 1 Jan 1990-31 Dec 1996:



Bowling averages of all pace attacks while playing "away" against the top 4 teams from 1 Jan 1990-31 Dec 1996:



------------------------------------------------------------------------

The top 4 teams during the last 6 years ranked by their W/L ratios:

Ind - 3.076
NZ - 1.857
Aus - 1.555
SA - 1.086

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...2015;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

Bowling averages of all pace attacks against the top 4 teams in the last 6 years:




Bowling averages of all pace attacks while playing "away" against the top 4 teams in the last 6 years:




There is no hard evidence to point out that India have particularly benefited from playing the most fragile batting line ups. If anything, the stats above points otherwise. India have been a cut above the rest while touring away, particularly against the top teams.

Nobody proclaims this Indian attack as "the greatest of all time". But they have been performing at a high level for a long time now, to compare favourably with the great attacks of the past eras. People tend to get an illusion that all the teams of the 90s decade were very strong because of the many ATG cricketers during that era, but England was at its weakest and SL and NZ were worse than the current West Indian team, at least during the phase you have mentioned in your post.

 

[Sir Alex]

The long and the short is, only two teams have had sub-25 average over a long-ish period of time - West Indies and India.

Peak years of Pakistan and AUS never had a sustained run of sub-25 average over 6 years.

Assuming this is factual, this pretty much settles the debate.

 

[Sir Alex]

Donald and Pollock in the second half of 90s were simply great. The problem was bowlers after them. Klusener was averaging near 40. McMillan was averaging near 50. Kallis was decent with avg of 28-29.

Excellent point. Donald and Pollock were truly brilliant - but once you saw them off, you backed yourselves to score against the rest.

The WI trio of Holding, Marshall, and Garner (with supporting acts by Andy Roberts, Colin Croft and Walsh etc) were truly brilliant in this regard. Absolutely no let up in intensity whatsoever and individually they were ATG pace bowlers as well.

And we saw how the Indian quartet was absolutely unrelenting at Lords - there was no question of seeing off any set of bowlers. You somehow survive Bumrah and Shami and then you had Siraj and Ishant coming up.

 

[ElRaja]

my two cents, we are talking about such huge data samples that you can cut em up and slice em to justify any point. fast bowling averages have come down from 33 in 2000s to 28 (small sample size) in 2020s. its arguable that test batsmen's techniques are worsening as a lot of those who had grew up with pre t20 techniques retired in the last decade.

what i will say in favour of this indian bowling attack is that ive rarely seen an attack that is as disciplined across three or four pacers in implementing strategies, as was obvious on the australia tour. they are fit, smart and very effective.

however indias spin attack is so good im pretty sure the quicks over this period have bowled less overs as a proportion of all overs bowled by india at home than any other era in history, although i have no way or working out whether this is true or not, and given how little test cricket india play against other asian teams proportionally they have also pbly bowled the least in asia compared to historic indian bowling line ups.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Excellent point. Donald and Pollock were truly brilliant - but once you saw them off, you backed yourselves to score against the rest.

The WI trio of Holding, Marshall, and Garner (with supporting acts by Andy Roberts, Colin Croft and Walsh etc) were truly brilliant in this regard. Absolutely no let up in intensity whatsoever and individually they were ATG pace bowlers as well.

And we saw how the Indian quartet was absolutely unrelenting at Lords - there was no question of seeing off any set of bowlers. You somehow survive Bumrah and Shami and then you had Siraj and Ishant coming up.

So how many times have they done that? Doing it once or twice doesn't make them an ATG attack. OP has mentioned Jamieson(8 tests) and Siraj(7 tests) in ATG bowling attacks. What a joke.

 

[Ab Fan]

Indian pace attack is nowhere close to the great Windies attack.

Flat wickets, not much runs on board and looked flat too with figures getting close to 100 on average by their pacers.

 

[Ozymandiasza]

So how many times have they done that? Doing it once or twice doesn't make them an ATG attack. OP has mentioned Jamieson(8 tests) and Siraj(7 tests) in ATG bowling attacks. What a joke.

While playing at home they were hyped as the GOAT team by some Indian fans on here. I just shake my head at some of these posters. Although they don't mean it, they sometimes come off as disrespecting to actual GOAT teams, and attacks in this case, but it's just arrogance and fanaticism.

 

[street cricketer]

While playing at home they were hyped as the GOAT team by some Indian fans on here. I just shake my head at some of these posters. Although they don't mean it, they sometimes come off as disrespecting to actual GOAT teams, and attacks in this case, but it's just arrogance and fanaticism.

Save the moral lecturing buddy. Hardly any Indian fan ever called this attack as the GOAT attack. However, they have performed very well as an attack though in the past 5 or so years to be branded as a very good or even a great attack.

 

[Robert]

Indian pace attack is nowhere close to the great Windies attack.

Flat wickets, not much runs on board and looked flat too with figures getting close to 100 on average by their pacers.

I never saw an England side score as fast and as easily against the great WI side as England did today, no matter how flat the wicket.

 

[mastimasti]

Assuming this is factual, this pretty much settles the debate.

It's not factual. Just go up to my responses to this poster. Not factual in the least. Pakistan for example had a sub 25 bowling average for 7 years, sub 24 for about 5 or 6.

WI did something similar and I believe, for longer.

Plus, AMSS did not even quote pace attack stats but the stats of all bowlers, including spinners.

 

[Bewal Express]

I would take many attacks over this attack. Its a good attack but for anyone to claim anything about it being epoch defining is plain rubbish

 

[therealAB]

You won't get much better than:

WI - Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop
WI - Croft, Roberts, Garner, Holding

Relentless pace and aggression. No breathing space for the batsmen at all.

The above one here for me takes it. Bishop is his early days was every bit as good as the best of the West Indians

 

[moghul]

WI - Croft, Roberts, garner, holding

I agree

 

[Joseph Gomes]

There are a handful of truly ATG pace bowling lineup. Imo to have an ATG pace bowling lineup, there must be at least 1 ATG and at least 1 or more borderline ATG pacer in the team at any time during the period. South Africa (1995-2019), Australia (1996-2007), WI (1975-2000), Pakistan (1985-2003) all had those.

West Indies had the highest amount of ATG (Garner, Holding, Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh). South Africa had 3 (Donald, Pollock, Steyn), Pakistan had 3 (I. Khan, Akram, W. Younis). Australia had just McGrath.

As for borderline ATG, WI had Roberts and Bishop. Australia had just Gillespie. South Africa had Philander. Pakistan had Akhtar (?).

Feel free to correct me or add onto what I wrote.

 

[street cricketer]

I don't rate the Indian batting one bit, but this Indian team has the highest W/L ratio after the great Windies and Aussie sides despite lacking a great batting line up and that's largely down to its bowling.

I get the feeling fans are reluctant to rate the Indian bowling purely because India has had a meme bowling attack for almost the entirety of its history. I mean, that Oval wicket was as flat as it gets and we kept hearing about how flat it was from the commentators all through the test but the Indian pacers did the job on the last day, just as they did during the Lords test inside 60 overs. Individually not all of them might be ATGs but as a combined attack, this Indian bowling attack is probably the most complete ever, in terms of having both a gun seam bowling and spin bowling attack.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Imran was mostly a lone warrior. His career was on the last legs when Waqar emerged. played with AKram for a few years. But Akram was still developing. He had guys like Sikander bhakt, Tahir Naqqash to bowl with.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

These Proteas are fairly good! Laughable Pakistan's is touted as the best in world cricket at present. Far from.

 

[jeetu]

I rather pair Akhtar with W's rather than Imran. Imran was not regularly bowling when Waqar established himself. Akhtar-Wasim-Waqar was formidable trio.

 

[Kianig89]

Wasim Waqar Akhtar Sami the deadliest achievements 2003 WC 1st round exit