Who are the Uyghurs and why is China being accused of genocide?

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China has been accused of committing crimes against humanity and possibly genocide against the Uyghur population and other mostly-Muslim ethnic groups in the north-western region of Xinjiang.

Human rights groups believe China has detained more than one million Uyghurs against their will over the past few years in a large network of what the state calls "re-education camps", and sentenced hundreds of thousands to prison terms.

A series of police files obtained by the BBC in 2022 has revealed details of China's use of these camps and described the routine use of armed officers and the existence of a shoot-to-kill policy for those trying to escape.

The US is among several countries to have previously accused China of committing genocide in Xinjiang. The leading human rights groups Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have published reports accusing China of crimes against humanity.

China denies all allegations of human rights abuses in Xinjiang. The Chinese government - speaking after details of the Xinjiang Police Files were published - said the peace and prosperity brought to Xinjiang as a result of its anti-terrorism measures were the best response to "all sorts of lies".

There are about 12 million Uyghurs, mostly Muslim, living in Xinjiang, which is officially known as the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region (XUAR).

The Uyghurs speak their own language, which is similar to Turkish, and see themselves as culturally and ethnically close to Central Asian nations. They make up less than half of the Xinjiang population.

Recent decades have seen a mass migration of Han Chinese (China's ethnic majority) into Xinjiang, allegedly orchestrated by the state to dilute the minority population there.

China has also been accused of targeting Muslim religious figures and banning religious practices in the region, as well as destroying mosques and tombs.

Uyghur activists say they fear that the group's culture is under threat of erasure.

Several countries, including the US, UK, Canada and the Netherlands, have accused China of committing genocide - defined by international convention, external as the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group".

The declarations follow reports that, as well as interning Uyghurs in camps, China has been forcibly mass sterilising Uyghur women to suppress the population, separating children from their families, and attempting to break the cultural traditions of the group.

The US Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, has said China is committing "genocide and crimes against humanity".

The UK parliament declared in April 2021 that China was committing a genocide in Xinjiang.

A UN human rights committee in 2018 said it had credible reports that China was holding up to a million people in "counter-extremism centres" in Xinjiang.

The Australian Strategic Policy Institute, external found evidence in 2020 of more than 380 of these "re-education camps" in Xinjiang, an increase of 40% on previous estimates.

Analysis of data contained in the latest police documents, called the Xinjiang Police Files, showed that almost 23,000 residents - or more than 12% of the adult population of one county - were in a camp or prison in the years 2017 and 2018. If applied to Xinjiang as a whole, the figures would mean the detention of more than 1.2 million Uyghur and other Turkic minority adults.

The UK Foreign Secretary Liz Truss said the files contained "shocking details of China's human rights violations".

China denies all allegations of human rights abuses in Xinjiang. In response to the Xinjiang Police Files, China's foreign ministry spokesman told the BBC that the documents were "the latest example of anti-China voices trying to smear China". He said Xinjiang enjoyed stability and prosperity and residents were living happy, fulfilled lives.

China says the crackdown in Xinjiang is necessary to prevent terrorism and root out Islamist extremism and the camps are an effective tool for re-educating inmates in its fight against terrorism.

It insists that Uyghur militants are waging a violent campaign for an independent state by plotting bombings, sabotage and civic unrest, but it is accused of exaggerating the threat in order to justify repression of the Uyghurs.

China has dismissed claims it is trying to reduce the Uyghur population through mass sterilisations as "baseless", and says allegations of forced labour are "completely fabricated".

 

China changed village names 'to erase Uyghur culture'​


China has changed the names of hundreds of villages in Xinjiang region in a move aimed at erasing Uyghur Muslim culture, Human Rights Watch (HRW) says.

According to a report by the group, hundreds of villages in Xinjiang with names related to the religion, history or culture of Uyghurs were replaced between 2009 and 2023.

Words such as "sultan" and "shrine" are disappearing from place names - to be replaced with terms such as "harmony" and "happiness", according to the research, which is based on China's own published data.

The BBC contacted China's embassy in London about the allegations.

In recent years, Chinese authorities have been radically overhauling society in Xinjiang in an attempt to assimilate its minority Uyghur population into mainstream Chinese culture.

Researchers from HRW and Norway-based organisation Uyghur Hjelp studied the names of villages in Xinjiang from the website of the National Bureau of Statistics of China over the 14-year period.

They found the names of 3,600 of the 25,000 villages in Xinjiang were changed during this time.

While the majority of these name changes "appear mundane", HRW said, around one fifth - or 630 changes - remove references to Uyghur religion, culture or history.

Words freighted with meaning for China's Uyghur population - including Hoja, a title for a Sufi religious teacher, and political or honorific titles such as Sultan and beg - have been replaced with words HRW claims reflect "recent Chinese Communist Party ideology", including "harmony" and "happiness".

In one example highlighted by the report, Aq Meschit (“white mosque”) in Akto County, a village in the southwest of Xinjiang, was renamed Unity village in 2018.

A growing body of evidence points to systematic human rights abuses against the country's Uyghur Muslim population. Beijing denies the accusations.

Most of China's Uygur Muslims live in the north-west of the country, in areas such as Xinjiang, Qinghai, Gansu and Ningxia.

There are roughly 20 million Muslims in China. While China is officially an atheist country, the authorities say they are tolerant of religious freedom.

However, in recent years observers say they have witnessed a crackdown on organised religion across the country.

According to HRW, while the renaming of villages and towns appears ongoing, most of the place names were changed between 2017 and 2019.

The group claims this coincides with an escalation in hostilities against the Uyghur population in Xinjiang.

China has used the threat of "violent terrorism, radicalisation and separatism" in the past to justify the mass detention of the country's minority Uyghur population.

Maya Wang, the acting China director at Human Rights Watch, said: “The Chinese authorities have been changing hundreds of village names in Xinjiang from those rich in meaning for Uyghurs to those that reflect government propaganda

“These name changes appear part of Chinese government efforts to erase the cultural and religious expressions of Uyghurs," she added.

The research follows a report published last year in which HRW accused the Chinese state of closing, destroying and repurposing mosques in an effort to curb the practise of Islam in China.

 
This is a heartbreaking attempt to erase the cultural identity of the Uyghur people! This issue deserves just as much attention as the situation in Gaza.
 

Uyghurs report disturbing stories of their relatives in Xinjiang being forced to marry Han Chinese, part of Beijing’s strategy for diluting Uyghur heritage.

There have been several attempts by the Chinese Communist Party to promote interethnic marriage over the years, but more recently there has been a worrying trend that has seen over 1 million Chinese government officials being sent to live with single Uyghur women or those who do not have husbands. Many of these women are being blackmailed, sexually assaulted, or coerced into marriage due to concerns that their relatives may be harmed.

According to a recent report from the Uyghur Human Rights Project, the extent of the situation has worsened over the years. Since 2014 the Chinese government has imposed forced interethnic marriages on Uyghur women under the guise of “promoting unity and social stability.” However, these claims of promoting unity couldn’t be further from the truth.

Many of the Uyghurs living abroad whom I spoke to for this story report that their female relatives have felt terrorized in their own homes after being placed in home surveillance schemes where Han men would be sent to stay with them.

In addition, many Uyghur women have been coerced into these forced marriages through incentivized schemes run by the Chinese Communist Party. The heart-breaking reality is that these Uyghur women are being stripped of any agency and authority to make their own decisions about whom they want to marry. If they refuse the orders of the Chinese Communist Party, they could face dire harm imposed on them and their loved ones.

One Uyghur woman, Aysha (a pseudonym used due to safety concerns), told me that her cousin was threatened with imprisonment if she did not marry a Han Chinese man. Aysha said that her cousin pleaded with officials that she was against the marriage, but Chinese officials threatened to harm her elderly parents and throw them into internment camps.

As Aysha broke down in tears, she told me that since her cousin’s refusal to marry a Han man, she has not been able to get in contact with her or their relatives. She fears for the worst.

Many Uyghurs living abroad have lost contact with their relatives in Xinjiang and neighboring provinces in China due to the strict monitoring of calls, invasive surveillance, and crackdown on Uyghurs run by President Xi Jinping.

Sadly, Aysha is not the only Uyghur with relatives she fears could have been harmed by the Chinese Communist Party after resisting pressure to marry. Gulnaz, another Uyghur, tells me a similar story she heard from a relative who had sought exile in Istanbul. Gulnaz said that this Uyghur woman was married, but her husband was sent to a concentration camp. A Han Chinese man was sent to stay with the wife, despite her feeling terribly distressed and upset about it. The woman was
threatened into a forced marriage, and no one has been able to contact her since.

Having interviewed many Uyghur women over the years, one can only suspect that something sinister would have happened to the women who would not go through with the marriages as ordered by the CCP. However, despite many testimonies from Uyghurs who have managed to escape China, justice and accountability has yet to be realized for the Uyghur people.

The gravity of forced and incentivized marriages have been likened to gender-based crimes that violate human rights standards
nternationally. The intentional policy to dilute Uyghur culture is part of the rationale for the charge that genocide is being committed against the Uyghurs in their homeland.

Many Uyghur Muslim women are left feeling vulnerable, alone, and unable to speak out about their turmoil. There have even been videos circulating on social media that show Uyghur women looking incredibly distressed at their weddings to Han men. These videos are a disturbing counterpoint to propaganda videos created by the Chinese Communist Party advertising Uyghur women as “beauties” and “urgently” calling for a specific number of Uyghur brides. Some women have even been offered the release of their male loved ones in return for giving up their fundamental right to marry according to their own choice.
 
Still remember Imran Khan's response as PM when he was asked about the issue in an interview. It was back when he was posting right, left and centre on X about the BJP government and Modi being fascist, racist, etc.
 
Still remember Imran Khan's response as PM when he was asked about the issue in an interview. It was back when he was posting right, left and centre on X about the BJP government and Modi being fascist, racist, etc.
China gives Pakistan loans and aid, so it's understandable
 
Half the world is indebted to China , they control the supply chain it’s hard to criticise the hands that are so powerful and take offense to such narratives.
 
China gives Pakistan loans and aid, so it's understandable
In that case he shouldn't have opened his big mouth regarding India either. It drastically effects your credibility when you indulge in selective criticism.
 
In that case he shouldn't have opened his big mouth regarding India either. It drastically effects your credibility when you indulge in selective criticism.
It honestly doesn’t, selective criticism happens around the world we are just more aware about it now.

Ukraine Palestine is the biggest example of hypocrisy.
 
Half the world is indebted to China , they control the supply chain it’s hard to criticise the hands that are so powerful and take offense to such narratives.
So using common sense allowed here I guess. Doesn’t look very consistent to me though.
 
In that case he shouldn't have opened his big mouth regarding India either. It drastically effects your credibility when you indulge in selective criticism.
Assuming there was credibility to begin with.

Speaking of credibility, what are odds of the "hindutva sponsered genocide" brigade showing up in this thread.
 
Assuming there was credibility to begin with.

Speaking of credibility, what are odds of the "hindutva sponsered genocide" brigade showing up in this thread.
I was speaking of Imran Khan in particular. As for that particular brigade you mentioned, the less said the better.
 
I was speaking of Imran Khan in particular. As for that particular brigade you mentioned, the less said the better.

He's been in Pakistani jail for months now, would be a better question to ask what is the stance of the actual Pakistan govt which is running the country.
 
He's been in Pakistani jail for months now, would be a better question to ask what is the stance of the actual Pakistan govt which is running the country.
They visit China almost every month, everytime i see someone is in China from current Est and politicians.
 
Just some anecdotal experience but I recently spent over a month in Xinjiang, mostly in Urumqi, Turpan, and Kashgar. Everyone including Muslims appeared to be living normally and peacefully together. Of course, a month is not a very long period of time but maybe things are not as bad as they seem.
 
Just some anecdotal experience but I recently spent over a month in Xinjiang, mostly in Urumqi, Turpan, and Kashgar. Everyone including Muslims appeared to be living normally and peacefully together. Of course, a month is not a very long period of time but maybe things are not as bad as they seem.

Did you not ask them about dissident camps ? Not that I think they'll answer truthfully.
 
Did you not ask them about dissident camps ? Not that I think they'll answer truthfully.

I did not, but there was ostensibly no feeling of fear, despair, or tension among anyone I came across. Mosques were around every corner and operating in full flow. The entire situation appeared to be far better than what is portrayed by the media, which is not surprising considering how common unsubstantiated efforts to demonize China are.
 
Just some anecdotal experience but I recently spent over a month in Xinjiang, mostly in Urumqi, Turpan, and Kashgar. Everyone including Muslims appeared to be living normally and peacefully together. Of course, a month is not a very long period of time but maybe things are not as bad as they seem.
When freedoms are completely crushed, why will they risk any truth that can seriously affect the lives of their families?
Do North Koreans in North Korea speak against the regime, its only once they are able to escape that they speak.
China has learnt the true art of crushing rebellion since ancient times, when you crush them crush them completely. LEt no one stay alive to speak otherwise.
Lol, reminded me of Thanos' dialogue in Avengers Endgame!
 
Try replying to the post below yours.

Why? Clearly this focus on a past leader who is not even PM any more just shows hindutvas aren't interested in the plight of Uhiygurs at all, and are more interested in harking back to Imran Khan for some reason. Which is a shame because you could ask the same questions of the current Pakistan regime quite legitimately.
 
Why? Clearly this focus on a past leader who is not even PM any more just shows hindutvas aren't interested in the plight of Uhiygurs at all, and are more interested in harking back to Imran Khan for some reason. Which is a shame because you could ask the same questions of the current Pakistan regime quite legitimately.
He's not just a past leader but was the PM of his country. But the most important point is he had the habit of babbling 24/7 on X about Modi/BJP/India with regards to treatment of Muslims. And when he was asked about Uyghurs that was his response. And those videos were when he was the PM of his country. The current Pakistan regime doesn't have his habit of yapping like a goose on India with regards to treatment of Muslims. Maybe a post once in a while, but that's it.​
 
He's not just a past leader but was the PM of his country. But the most important point is he had the habit of babbling 24/7 on X about Modi/BJP/India with regards to treatment of Muslims. And when he was asked about Uyghurs that was his response. And those videos were when he was the PM of his country. The current Pakistan regime doesn't have his habit of yapping like a goose on India with regards to treatment of Muslims. Maybe a post once in a while, but that's it.​

So your main issue is a former leader of Pakistan who talked about Indian treatment of Muslims and you have no problem with Chinese torture of Uhygurs otherwise? Maybe you should have posted in the Imran Khan threads then, especially as he has not been leader of Pakistan for a year.
 
So your main issue is a former leader of Pakistan who talked about Indian treatment of Muslims and you have no problem with Chinese torture of Uhygurs otherwise? Maybe you should have posted in the Imran Khan threads then, especially as he has not been leader of Pakistan for a year.
No amount of deflection is going to help you. The topic is in front of you, and it's open for discussion for all. Address the issue raised like a man instead of trying to escape like a weasel.
 
BBC CNN are championing their hypocrisy when it comes to china.

Yet what the pro israeli are doing to palastanian children and women is swept under the carpet and hid from reality.
 
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No amount of deflection is going to help you. The topic is in front of you, and it's open for discussion for all. Address the issue raised like a man instead of trying to escape like a weasel.

So you responded to a simple question about your "concern" for the Uyghurs by name calling which I think exposes your position fairly clearly. If you don't care about torture of Uyghurs in China just say so, it's not against the law. You want to talk about a former PM in Pakistan instead...ironic that you accuse me of deflecting. :ROFLMAO:
 
What is happening in China is mainly secret or conjecture.

What is happening in Palestine is in front of the eyes of the world. Family trees are being obliterated, women raped by IDF and babies are being torn apart limb for limb.

The same countries saying China is committing genocide say Israel is not.

The same countries saying China is committing genocide supply weapons to Israel to blow up children.

It would be helpful if some countries would lodge complaints in the ICC or ICJ so we can get to the heart of the issue and really understand what is going on.
 
So you responded to a simple question about your "concern" for the Uyghurs by name calling which I think exposes your position fairly clearly. If you don't care about torture of Uyghurs in China just say so, it's not against the law. You want to talk about a former PM in Pakistan instead...ironic that you accuse me of deflecting. :ROFLMAO:
More deflection. Kindly try answering the original question that I raised.
 
Not everything is going good for China. While they are busy in trying to stamp out Muslims from their country, their citizens are running to US in thousands as illegal immigrants.
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Ecuador is suspending visa-free access for Chinese travelers starting July 1, closing off a popular arrival spot used last year by thousands of Chinese migrants trekking to the US-Mexico border.

Since 2016, Ecuador has allowed Chinese nationals to enter its borders without a visa and stay for up to 90 days.

But in a statement on Tuesday seen by Business Insider, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Human Mobility said it was ending the program "due to the unusual increase in irregular migratory flows of Chinese citizens" who overstayed their 90 days.

It is only one of two nations in the Americas that offers visa-free access to Chinese nationals. The other is Suriname, a smaller country of about 618,000 people.

The Ecuadorian ministry noted that about 50% of all Chinese arrivals "have not left through regular routes and within the times established by law."

Many people have used the country as a "starting point to reach other destinations in the Hemisphere," the ministry added.

The Niskanen Center assessed in May that Chinese travelers entered Ecuador 48,381 times in 2023 but only left the country legally 24,240 times that year. The deficit was "by far the highest number of any nationality," the US think tank wrote.

It comes amid a surge in Chinese arrivals that year, with a 235% increase compared to the previous five-year average, per the Niskanen Center.

The visa-free access recently made Ecuador a major entry point into the Americas for Chinese migrants looking to travel through Central America and reach the US-Mexico border.

In response to Ecuador's Tuesday decision, a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson said the country "firmly opposes any form of smuggling activities."

"In recent years, Chinese law enforcement agencies have cracked down on crimes that hinder national border management and have maintained a high-pressure crackdown on various smuggling organizations and criminals engaged in smuggling activities, achieving remarkable results," the spokesperson said.

How Chinese migrants use Ecuador to get to the US
Thousands of migrants fly into Ecuador before traveling through Columbia, where they undertake a grueling trek through a perilous, cartel-run stretch of jungle called the Darién Gap.

If successful, they emerge in Panama. Over 15,500 Chinese migrants were counted exiting the Darién Gap in 2023, per Washington-based think tank The Wilson Center.

"This figure is nearly eight times as many from the same period in 2022 and more than 40 times that of 2021," wrote Joshua Peng, a program associate in refugee and displacement research at The Wilson Center.

Many migrants then travel to Mexico, attempting to reach the US through its southern border.

US border officials said they detained 37,000 Chinese migrants attempting to cross the border in 2023, or 10 times the number detained in the year before. The true number of those attempting to cross the border is likely higher.


 
Not everything is going good for China. While they are busy in trying to stamp out Muslims from their country, their citizens are running to US in thousands as illegal immigrants.


Eerie parallels with India here tbh

You could replace the names of the countries in your post and it would be true.

When you have 1 billion plus population there are bound to be people that are in the fringes and want a way out.
 
Not question, but issue. Here was my post -

The only issue you raised was about a former PM of Pakistan and his relations with China. He is no longer PM so what is the point of discussing him now like a cornered toad?

If you want to discuss Pakistan's role in this, I have offered to bring it up to date by focusing on current leadership. Would that not make more sense, or is there some reason you want to discuss Imran Khan only?
 
The only issue you raised was about a former PM of Pakistan and his relations with China. He is no longer PM so what is the point of discussing him now like a cornered toad?

If you want to discuss Pakistan's role in this, I have offered to bring it up to date by focusing on current leadership. Would that not make more sense, or is there some reason you want to discuss Imran Khan only?
The issue was about his hypocrisy. I was speaking of Imran Khan, not about Pakistan.
 
The issue was about his hypocrisy. I was speaking of Imran Khan, not about Pakistan.

So that would have made more sense to have posted in a thread about Imran Khan surely?

Seems you don't really have any views on the Uyhigurs in China.
 
So that would have made more sense to have posted in a thread about Imran Khan surely?

Seems you don't really have any views on the Uyhigurs in China.
This is a thread on Uyghurs, so I brought up the topic here. As for my opinion on the thread topic, nothing better can be expected from China.
 
China is killing and oppressing their own Muslim's even force feeding them pork. Of course the great Imran Khan ignored that when he was our PM. That is why I say he is no better then any other Pak politician.
 
As s Pakistanis consider themselves to be the spokespeople of the world Muslim community then they deserve to be condemned. We care so much about the poor and suffering Palestinians, Iraqis, Rohingya, Kashmiris and every man and his dog. Why then are our politicians silent on the condition of Chinese Muslims?. What happened to this bhai-bhai relationship?
 
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As s Pakistanis consider themselves to be the spokespeople of the world Muslim community then they deserve to be condemned. We care so much about the poor and suffering Palestinians, Iraqis, Rohingya, Kashmiris and every man and his dog. Why then are our politicians silent on the condition of Chinese Muslims?. What happened to this bhai-bhai relationship?

You are here to bash Imran Khan not concerned with the plight of Uhygiurs. If you want to condemn Pakistanis as spokesmen of the Muslim community then it would make more sense to condemn the leadership of the country.

NEWSFLASH: Imran Khan is not the leader of Pakistan.
 
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You are here to bash Imran Khan not concerned with the plight of Uhygiurs. If you want to condemn Pakistanis as spokesmen of the Muslim community then it would make more sense to condemn the leadership of the country.

NEWSFLASH: Imran Khan is not the leader of Pakistan.
IK was the PM when the Chinese were killing their Muslim's yet he remained silent.

He was also the PM when India revoked article 370 too. When have I not condemned the leadership rather insisted that all our politician's including IK are the same. Their actions never meet their words.

What I want Pak to do is sort out our own problems instead of playing the world leader of the Muslim's. No other Muslim country or community has ever supported us.
 
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IK was the PM when the Chinese were killing their Muslim's yet he remained silent.

He was also the PM when India revoked article 370 too. When have I not condemned the leadership rather insisted that all our politician's including IK are the same. Their actions never meet their words.

What I want Pak to do is sort out our own problems instead of playing the world leader of the Muslim's. No other Muslim country or community has ever supported us.

It seems like you want Imran Khan to sort out Pakistan's problems even after he has been jailed and disqualified from your Islamic republic. Again, should probably have been directed at a thread about Imran Khan because you clearly don't have any interest in current Pakistan position on the thread topic.
 
Just some anecdotal experience but I recently spent over a month in Xinjiang, mostly in Urumqi, Turpan, and Kashgar. Everyone including Muslims appeared to be living normally and peacefully together. Of course, a month is not a very long period of time but maybe things are not as bad as they seem.
There was a video on Vice on the situation of Uyghurs by a Chinese Brit journalist who travelled to Kashgar and met Uyghur refugees in Turkey, would recommend watching it
 
A delegation of muslim leaders were invited to china to check out what is led to believe to be western propaganda in China's human rights towards Uyghur muslims.
===
A delegation of 32 envoys and senior diplomats from 30 Muslim-majority countries have paid a visit to China’s Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region at the invitation of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to learn about the region’s economic and social development.

The five-day visit took place last week and included envoys from countries including Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Yemen and Pakistan. The delegation visited the provincial capital Urumqi in addition to Kashgar and Aksu prefectures. They were met by Ma Xingrui, secretary of the Party Committee of Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region.

A spokesperson for theFforeign Ministry, Hua Chunying said the diplomats visited mosques, Islamic schools, museums, old city renovation, grassroots communities, technology enterprises, green development and rural revitalisation projects.

“Members of the delegation expressed that the Chinese government adheres to the people-centred approach and has made great achievements in promoting the governance and development of Xinjiang,” she said.

 
Wests concerns on human rights is the biggest hypocrisy in living memory. What is happening in middle east is the proof of the pudding
 
If there's one thing to China's credit (and I know it's meagre credit), it's that their leadership hold every religion and religious people in contempt. There's no discrimination except maybe a slight laxity towards Buddhism. Just witness their crackdown on mainstream religions like Christianity and Islam as well as cults like the Falun Gong.

It must really stick in their and their benefactor's craw that their main alliances are perforcedly with deeply religious countries like Pakistan and Iran. Russia becoming their client must a nice relief though it's gone pretty superficially Orthodox Christian in the last few years.

Such a weird world we live in.
 
If there's one thing to China's credit (and I know it's meagre credit), it's that their leadership hold every religion and religious people in contempt. There's no discrimination except maybe a slight laxity towards Buddhism. Just witness their crackdown on mainstream religions like Christianity and Islam as well as cults like the Falun Gong.

It must really stick in their and their benefactor's craw that their main alliances are perforcedly with deeply religious countries like Pakistan and Iran. Russia becoming their client must a nice relief though it's gone pretty superficially Orthodox Christian in the last few years.

Such a weird world we live in.
china has never cared about religion outside its borders, if you read up their history then you can easily understand why religion and religious expression (which is a fundamentally sectarian force in their context) within their borders is so dangerous.

most people dont get impressed by religions of poorer people, so as long as the Chinese are wealthier than their religious neighbours, the religions are unlikely to have significant attraction to the monied and powerful classes who are more deeply invested in their own social dynamics.

however as economic and demographic growth slows, religiosity is likely to increase, which is why china is taking pre emotive steps by limiting religion with greater force over the last few years.
 
Wests concerns on human rights is the biggest hypocrisy in living memory. What is happening in middle east is the proof of the pudding
everyone is a hypocrite when it comes to human rights, its wrong to blame the west alone, history is littered with double standards from everyone if you go and look, its just that the "non western" world is so weak, that their hypocrisies rarely matter to anyone else these days.
 
Not only IK but no one has ever done anything for Chinese Muslims. Like the Muslims of India they have to tolerate this oppression until Allah wants. They will be rewarded for it more then those who are enjoying the good times at the moment.
 
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china has never cared about religion outside its borders, if you read up their history then you can easily understand why religion and religious expression (which is a fundamentally sectarian force in their context) within their borders is so dangerous.

most people dont get impressed by religions of poorer people, so as long as the Chinese are wealthier than their religious neighbours, the religions are unlikely to have significant attraction to the monied and powerful classes who are more deeply invested in their own social dynamics.

however as economic and demographic growth slows, religiosity is likely to increase, which is why china is taking pre emotive steps by limiting religion with greater force over the last few years.
True. Of all the 'great powers' of the world, China has the least history of conquering unless you count the Mongols which they don't. The Middle Kingdom and it's historic borders have always been enough for them.

However it's impossible to deal with Chinese officials for any duration without seeing their pretty patronizing and frankly, contemptuous attitude towards religion and the religious. I mean I'm an atheist myself and their views (with their guard down) honestly annoyed me.
 
True. Of all the 'great powers' of the world, China has the least history of conquering unless you count the Mongols which they don't. The Middle Kingdom and it's historic borders have always been enough for them.

However it's impossible to deal with Chinese officials for any duration without seeing their pretty patronizing and frankly, contemptuous attitude towards religion and the religious. I mean I'm an atheist myself and their views (with their guard down) honestly annoyed me.
its pragmatic, their social dynamic cannot tolerate any form of sectarianism, whenever it has happened in the past they've had apocalyptic civil wars, so even if their views are patronising and contemptuous, the rationale behind it is logical.
 
its pragmatic, their social dynamic cannot tolerate any form of sectarianism, whenever it has happened in the past they've had apocalyptic civil wars, so even if their views are patronising and contemptuous, the rationale behind it is logical.
Fair. It makes me fear for the future for though. The West for all their hypocrisy and willingness to abandon their ideals atleast has ideals I subscribe to.

The Chinese seem to have none beyond pragmatic self-interest. Given they're about to be (or obviously already are) one of the arbitrers of the future of the World order, it's tough to see where we're headed. At the least, we had interventions like in Bosnia when things got too bad. Will we have even those in the future?
 
Fair. It makes me fear for the future for though. The West for all their hypocrisy and willingness to abandon their ideals atleast has ideals I subscribe to.

The Chinese seem to have none beyond pragmatic self-interest. Given they're about to be (or obviously already are) one of the arbitrers of the future of the World order, it's tough to see where we're headed. At the least, we had interventions like in Bosnia when things got too bad. Will we have even those in the future?
two points, the west ideals are moving goal posts, when i was a teen i thought the world was on a trajectory towards logical and scientific progress aided by free speech and free thought. i never thought id see the political discourse in the west debased to the inane groupism that seem to features of a polarised and static type of politics.

secondly, the Chinese believe is economic imperialism far more than martial, and the nature of their local politics means that they need not justify interventions, nor worry about optics, so they can be far more comfortable with taking proxies roles without regard for and blowback, like they have with the taliban in Afghanistan.

that nation is like a giant dry hay bale balancing precariously over the embers of global instability, you tip one way or the other and you risk so much that everyone is mutually invested in that mypoic self-interest. china will be a titan of the next generation, but it will not be able to operate without state control, IMO, the west would have far too much to gain from breaking it up should any political liberalism enter the system.
 
two points, the west ideals are moving goal posts, when i was a teen i thought the world was on a trajectory towards logical and scientific progress aided by free speech and free thought. i never thought id see the political discourse in the west debased to the inane groupism that seem to features of a polarised and static type of politics.

secondly, the Chinese believe is economic imperialism far more than martial, and the nature of their local politics means that they need not justify interventions, nor worry about optics, so they can be far more comfortable with taking proxies roles without regard for and blowback, like they have with the taliban in Afghanistan.

that nation is like a giant dry hay bale balancing precariously over the embers of global instability, you tip one way or the other and you risk so much that everyone is mutually invested in that mypoic self-interest. china will be a titan of the next generation, but it will not be able to operate without state control, IMO, the west would have far too much to gain from breaking it up should any political liberalism enter the system.
Sorry I didn't get your point beyond the assertion that the Chinese political system and statecraft is likely to last at least in the medium term. I do agree with that much.

What about the world though? In the cold war, for all it's flaws, we had two entities who believed the world was better off following their respective economic and political philosophies and we're willing to help countries get there.

Do you believe China as it ascends to it's rightful position in the world would be willing to intervene in a crisis for anything beyond it's own narrow self interest? And would that be a good or bad thing?
 
The West for all their hypocrisy and willingness to abandon their ideals atleast has ideals I subscribe to.
The Chinese seem to have none beyond pragmatic self-interest. Given they're about to be (or obviously already are) one of the arbitrers of the future of the World order, it's tough to see where we're headed.

What western ideals do you subscribe to that the Chinese don't have .. how might the latter influence future arbitration ?
 
What western ideals do you subscribe to that the Chinese don't have .. how might the latter influence future arbitration ?
Freedom of speech is an example I suppose. I like coming on forums like these and (occasionally) criticising my own country and government. I wouldn't be able to do that behind the Great Firewall.

Democracy, for all it's flaws, is another pet favourite of mine.

The West for all their flaws have occasionally supported their ideals to the detriment of their interests. Say in the Arab Spring. Can China claim the same?
 
The West for all their flaws have occasionally supported their ideals to the detriment of their interests. Say in the Arab Spring. Can China claim the same?

Brazil, Congo, Chile, Iran, Argentina, Guatemala ... are just some of the many countries where the USA have removed democratically elected governments and installed their pet dictators through military coups. All of us have grown up with this rosy view of good vs bad in international politics but self interest is what motivates the West as well.
 
everyone is a hypocrite when it comes to human rights, its wrong to blame the west alone, history is littered with double standards from everyone if you go and look, its just that the "non western" world is so weak, that their hypocrisies rarely matter to anyone else these days.

I agree. But west does champion it's human rights, and it likes to preach what it doesn't practice. There's ample examples, and the biggest one is in the middle East with the current Genocide.
 
Not only IK but no one has ever done anything for Chinese Muslims. Like the Muslims of India they have to tolerate this oppression until Allah wants. They will be rewarded for it more then those who are enjoying the good times at the moment.
That is fine, if everyone is okay to discuss Imran Khan's qualities or shortcomings in this thread then I am good with that. You described his rule as megalomaniac, and also alleged said he lived a sinful life. Can you expand on this please? What sins in particular do you object to?
 
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That is fine, if everyone is okay to discuss Imran Khan's qualities or shortcomings in this thread then I am good with that. You described his rule as megalomaniac, and also alleged said he lived a sinful life. Can you expand on this please? What sins in particular do you object to?

I also hold him responsible for what is happening in IoK today. He was PM when India removed article 370 or was it someone else? He is also one of the biggest hypocrites in the world going full circle from a playboy to an Islamic scholar wannabe. Oh yes, he won the undemanding Cricket WC for Pak, we'll never get to hear the end of that. Arjuna Ranatunga also did the same for Sri Lanka.
 
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Obviously you do not realize IK's youthful days when he was sexually involved with so many ladies. It was a free for all him always being heavily linked to some women. So he tells us "I don't personally attack anyone" because he can't! This is to save face so no one else rips his character to shreds!

I also hold him responsible for what is happening in IoK today. He was PM when India removed article 370 or was it someone else? He is also one of the biggest hypocrites in the world going full circle from a playboy to an Islamic scholar wannabe. Oh yes, he won the undemanding Cricket WC for Pak, we'll never get to hear the end of that. Arjuna Ranatunga also did the same for Sri Lanka.
Damn. Truth bombs!
 
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That is fine, if everyone is okay to discuss Imran Khan's qualities or shortcomings in this thread then I am good with that. You described his rule as megalomaniac, and also alleged said he lived a sinful life. Can you expand on this please? What sins in particular do you object to?
Why are you getting so defensive and upset over criticisms of the khan
 
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Why are you getting so defensive and upset over criticisms of the khan

I don't see what is defensive or upsetting about criticism of Imran Khan. I did question whether this was the right thread to discuss his qualities or drawbacks, but since it seems to be approved, I will of course reply to the self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam in great detail on these matters pertaining to Pakistan's former PM.

I would suggest if you are seeing upset or defensiveness in asking perfectly reasonable questions then perhaps you are projecting? :unsure:
 
I also hold him responsible for what is happening in IoK today. He was PM when India removed article 370 or was it someone else? He is also one of the biggest hypocrites in the world going full circle from a playboy to an Islamic scholar wannabe. Oh yes, he won the undemanding Cricket WC for Pak, we'll never get to hear the end of that. Arjuna Ranatunga also did the same for Sri Lanka.

If people want to criticise him for that well that is up to them, but most would agree that a person should take more responsibility as they get older.

As for article 370 being removed in India during Imran Khan's term, I believe your suggestion in a thread about Kashmir was that Pakistan should declare war on India? Is that correct? First let us establish that before we go further.
 
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Uyghur-American politician calls out China’s alleged trade in ‘Halal Organs’​


The situation regarding the treatment of Uyghurs in China is deeply concerning and has raised serious allegations of human rights abuses, including forced organ harvesting.

In March, during a US congressional committee hearing, experts had claimed that Chinese authorities had gathered genetic information from the Muslim Uyghur minority, with the aim of supporting a forced organ transplant programme targeted at attracting Muslim medical tourists from Gulf states.

In a post on X, Uyghur-American politician Salih Hudayar stated, “China has inaugurated a “Children’s Organ Transplant Centre.” As part of the Uyghur genocide, China has been harvesting Uyghurs’ organs and selling them as “halal organs.” Since 2014, nearly a million Uyghur children have been forcibly separated from their families. Is this another step in China’s ongoing Uyghur Genocide and notorious organ harvesting practices?”

There have been allegations and reports from various sources, including human rights organisations and testimonies from individuals, suggesting that Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslim minorities in Xinjiang have faced severe repression, including forced labour, mass detention, and possibly forced organ harvesting.

These claims are serious and demand thorough investigation and accountability.

According to the Minnesota-based non-profit organisation ‘World Without Genocide’, Uyghurs are reportedly being killed for their organs to meet the demands of a lucrative transplant industry valued at approximately USD 1 billion annually.

These allegations are serious and have been raised by various human rights organizations, investigative journalists, and testimonies from individuals who claim to have been affected or have knowledge of such practices.

However, due to the secretive nature of the Chinese government and limited independent access to Xinjiang, verifying these claims with concrete evidence remains challenging.

International bodies and governments have called for investigations into these allegations, emphasising the need for transparency and accountability from Chinese authorities.

Advocacy groups continue to monitor the situation closely and push for international scrutiny to ensure the protection of human rights and dignity for all individuals affected.

Source: Indian Narrative
 
If people want to criticise him for that well that is up to them, but most would agree that a person should take more responsibility as they get older.

As for article 370 being removed in India during Imran Khan's term, I believe your suggestion in a thread about Kashmir was that Pakistan should declare war on India? Is that correct? First let us establish that before we go further.
Indeed, IK when PM should have attacked India when when article 370 was revoked. Since then India has become far more aggressive towards AJK because if his lacklustre and cowardly attitude.
 
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Can you guys stick to the topic and talk about China and Uyghurs.

NO MORE IRRELEVANT POSTS please
 
Muslim countries if they wanted could put lots of pressure on China to treat their Muslim's well. The Arab's, Iran, Turkey, Afghanistan and yes Pak as well could grab China by the throat making them respect their Muslims. If not they could threaten them in many ways.
 
There will be some major wars involving China in the coming decades. I hope our western neighbors can come to India's rescue when needed and we can both teach China a lesson for their crimes against Uyghurs. #TogetherWeCan<3
 
Muslim countries if they wanted could put lots of pressure on China to treat their Muslim's well. The Arab's, Iran, Turkey, Afghanistan and yes Pak as well could grab China by the throat making them respect their Muslims. If not they could threaten them in many ways.
I've always agreed with you that the influential Islamic countries simply don't care about the concept of Muslim Ummah. Self interest is the only thing that drives them.
 
There will be some major wars involving China in the coming decades. I hope our western neighbors can come to India's rescue when needed and we can both teach China a lesson for their crimes against Uyghurs. #TogetherWeCan<3
I think we might see something like that When Xi is dying or China is suffering an intense internal turmoil.
Similar to what Putin has done.
Pakistan will be stuck supporting China no matter what. The level of "colonial diktats" China tends to issue to Pakistan about the safety of Chinese citizens in Pakistan should trouble any proud Pakistani
 
Indeed, IK when PM should have attacked India when when article 370 was revoked. Since then India has become far more aggressive towards AJK because if his lacklustre and cowardly attitude.

Can you please explain your reasoning for demanding that a smaller nation should launch a war against a much larger and better equipped military force?
 
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