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Who would you pick between Mohammad Asif and Mohammad Abbas?

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Who would be your choice based on what you’ve seen? Obviously the ban prevented Mohammad Asif from having a full career, but he did end up playing 23 test matches and picking up 106 wickets. Have we seen enough of Mohammad Abbas to make a final determination? Tough to say! It’s easy to say that the current Australian side is probably one of their weakest sides ever, but who was expecting a fast bowler to do the job in the series. Let’s not forget Australia had M. Starc and an experienced P. Siddle on their side.
 
Asif always. Guy was a genius. What he did to some of the world's finest was epic. Still remember how he made Sachin look like a fool in that test match.

Abbas is good very good, but not as talented as Asif was.
 
Asif was more talented could bowl magic balls Abbas is not a magic deliveries bowler however I believe Abbas is more relentless with the off stump channel.Asif could over do with floating stuff to get the batsman driving Abbas master on length and line is superior also Abbas is fitter
 
I would have liked to see, if there was a poll, how many voted for Abbas:)
 
I'd wait probably a year to think about this comparison. Asif's mind as a bowler was unparalleled. The guy literally set traps for batsmen that he had been planning for overs and obviously he had the skills to execute them perfectly. That said, Asif had serious attitude problems. I think everyone knew it was only a matter of time before he destroyed his career, which he did.

Abbas has many of Asif's traits, barring the magic. He's also a very thinking bowler and while I'm not sure whether or not he will surpass Asif I atleast know that he's low-maintenance, doesn't have those self-destructive sensibilities and actually seems like a very nice bloke who realizes the importance of playing well for Pakistan. I don't think Asif ever realized this.
 
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Abbas.

Action,average he beats him in all aspects atleast in FC stats.

Asif never played for the team and most of his spells hardly had an impact.
 
Nostalgia is an amazing thing. It makes people forget how often Asif seemed like a useless trundler with zero impact who was toyed around by the batsmen.
 
Syed1 said:
Nostalgia is an amazing thing. It makes people forget how often Asif seemed like a useless trundler with zero impact who was toyed around by the batsmen.
Click to expand...

Please show us where... KP and AB both say hes the best they’ve ever faced. But Syed from Pak passion thinks he’s a useless trundler
 
Syed1 said:
Nostalgia is an amazing thing. It makes people forget how often Asif seemed like a useless trundler with zero impact who was toyed around by the batsmen.
Click to expand...
Apart from the series where he played right after his elbow surgery and was wearing a cast I would say he never had a bad series
 
Syed1 said:
Nostalgia is an amazing thing. It makes people forget how often Asif seemed like a useless trundler with zero impact who was toyed around by the batsmen.
Click to expand...

There is some truth to this. After his injury, his pace reduced and struggled to take wickets after the new ball spell and if the wicket was unresponsive. He would still bowl tidy spells but clearly lost his penetration. This was most evident in the 2009 series in Australia, when he carved through the Aussie lineup in Sydney on a greenish early wicket, but didnt do anything for the rest of the series on flatter decks.
 
Right now it is Mohammad Asif.

I'd for for Abbas to play some more matches particular in South Africa, New Zealand and Australia. If Abbas is so good in UAE you would think he would perform the same if not better in swinging and seaming conditions.
 
Asif's ability to produce unplayable deliveries was unprecedented. Abbas may still be able to end up as the better or should I say more effective bowler with better stats.

But these comparisons are premature. Let Abbas play 20 matches at least.
 
Asifs height gave him an extra dimension, longer limbs too, good for mechanics. Abbas very, very good though 👍
 
The Asif that we saw against Ind 2006 bowling at 85mph was something else( but that Asif only lasted 1 year) but on dead tracks Abbas has shown to be a better bowler.
 
Asif bowled some of the best batsmen of his era and troubled them. Tough to look past Asif.
 
Asif was poetry in motion. Abbas is steady. Still can't forget the marathon spell Asif bowled in South Africa, Port Elizabeth I believe, where he single-handedly bowled us to a victory. His setup of KP, ABD and Ponting is well-documented, and it remains to be seen if Abbas can do the same to gun batsmen.

Hands down the most talented pacer from Asia in the last 10 years. He would have gone down as one of the greats of Pakistan, had he not sold his soul for a few pounds.
 
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There is a difference between the master and the pupil.

Abbas is good but Asif was different class. He had deliveries available to him that Abbas is yet to learn.

But who knows, maybe one day the pupil will be as good as the master,

By the way, Asif and Abbas played together at KRL.
 
Usman Chadda said:
Asif was poetry in motion. Abbas is steady. Still can't forget the marathon spell Asif bowled in South Africa, Port Elizabeth I believe, where he single-handedly bowled us to a victory. His setup of KP, ABD and Ponting is well-documented, and it remains to be seen if Abbas can do the same to gun batsmen.

Hands down the most talented pacer from Asia in the last 10 years. He would have gone down as one of the greats of Pakistan, had he not sold his soul for a few pounds.
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He didn't sell his soul, actually. We have had this debate before with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]. Asif declined to do it at first, then relented, after being pressured by his captain. But he took no money, that was clear from the court proceedings. He made a criminal mistake but not out of greed.

I would take Asif, but I have a feeling that he was not in fact better than Abbas. He just looked so much better. Magic balls and all. But he could lack penetration sometimes; people forget this. Abbas is more effective I suspect. A Wasim vs McGrath kind of situation.
 
Saj said:
Not quite as tall as Asif I reckon but 6 foot or maybe just over.
Click to expand...

The really interesting point of comparison would be the hands. Abbas looks like he has little wings attached to the ends of his arms.
 
Syed1 said:
Nostalgia is an amazing thing. It makes people forget how often Asif seemed like a useless trundler with zero impact who was toyed around by the batsmen.
Click to expand...

:)))

So who's better, Junaid Khan?

Unbelievable, even Asif's haters wouldn't say such a thing. Universally acclaimed bowler, one of the most skilled in history.

wasimjunior said:
Please show us where... KP and AB both say hes the best they’ve ever faced. But Syed from Pak passion thinks he’s a useless trundler
Click to expand...

I have no idea how anyone can say that about Asif.
 
Bewal Express said:
The Asif that we saw against Ind 2006 bowling at 85mph was something else( but that Asif only lasted 1 year) but on dead tracks Abbas has shown to be a better bowler.
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Asif owned batsmen repeatedly, the best of the last 10-20 years, even after teams have had several chances to study his bowling and work him out.

Abbas has yet to do that. He very well can, have to see.


New Yorker said:
He didn't sell his soul, actually. We have had this debate before with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]. Asif declined to do it at first, then relented, after being pressured by his captain. But he took no money, that was clear from the court proceedings. He made a criminal mistake but not out of greed.

I will be happy once he does that - but till then, let's not compare like that.

I would take Asif, but I have a feeling that he was not in fact better than Abbas. He just looked so much better. Magic balls and all. But he could lack penetration sometimes; people forget this. Abbas is more effective I suspect. A Wasim vs McGrath kind of situation.
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Goodness me. Asif vs. Abbas is already Wasim vs. McGrath?!

Look, Abbas is probably the best Test debutant bowler. But he does not have the same skillset that Asif did.

He has not repeatedly troubled batsmen (those who already have played him), and he has not bowled to the best batsmen of this era. Teams have yet to study him and work him out.
 
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Asif was unbelievable but Abbas is inconceivable. That's reflected in their averages and the fact that Abbas is yet to bowl in South Africa, New Zealand or go back to England for some more fun.

An average of 24 is fantastic but compared to a guy with an average of 15, it looks mediocre.
 
Syed1 said:
Nostalgia is an amazing thing. It makes people forget how often Asif seemed like a useless trundler with zero impact who was toyed around by the batsmen.
Click to expand...

Can you remind me when Asif was “toyed around” by batsman :13:

I don’t recall too many such instances :)
 
Asif was a high quality bowler but what he did was a disgrace to cricket. He has only himself to blame for not achieving respect from people all round the world.
 
Hawkeye said:
:)))

So who's better, Junaid Khan?

Unbelievable, even Asif's haters wouldn't say such a thing. Universally acclaimed bowler, one of the most skilled in history.



I have no idea how anyone can say that about Asif.
Click to expand...

Maybe try reading my post again and this time slowly so that you can understand it. To make it simpler for you to understand let me explain a bit, perhaps this might be an effort in vain knowing your mental state. Where did I say that Asif wasn't a great bowler? He was definitely the best we produced after the generation of Wasim, Waqar, Akhtar but people on this thread are acting as if Asif was some legendary bowler who took fifers for fun. He definitely had his days when he was smashed around and look harmless.


And you are one to talk you claimed Abbas hasn't performed against good opposition when he averages in the teens against England and Australia :)))
 
New Yorker said:
He didn't sell his soul, actually. We have had this debate before with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]. Asif declined to do it at first, then relented, after being pressured by his captain. But he took no money, that was clear from the court proceedings. He made a criminal mistake but not out of greed.

I would take Asif, but I have a feeling that he was not in fact better than Abbas. He just looked so much better. Magic balls and all. But he could lack penetration sometimes; people forget this. Abbas is more effective I suspect. A Wasim vs McGrath kind of situation.
Click to expand...
Abbas has a long way to go. Asif has had absolute marathon spells, specially when Akhtar went limping off the field more often than not. That spell in Port Elizabeth is one for the ages tbh. Despite Akhtar and Kaneria being part of the attack, Asif single-handedly won us that test in a region where we might not further win one for a while.
 
Asif.

He was a complete fast bowler in Test cricket. Got the ball to move at will (both ways). Mohammad Abbas is the real deal but he lacks in certain areas.

It's an absolute shame Asif's life decisions ruined him.
 
msb314 said:
Can you remind me when Asif was “toyed around” by batsman :13:

I don’t recall too many such instances :)
Click to expand...

Johnathan Trott had figured out the perfect formula to neutralize Asif in the final innings, he got out of the crease and put his front pad just outside the line to take the inswing lbw out of the equation and he was able to read Asif's outswinger with relative ease.

However Asif could have countered this by having the keeper come up to the stumps.
 
Hawkeye said:
Asif owned batsmen repeatedly, the best of the last 10-20 years, even after teams have had several chances to study his bowling and work him out.

Abbas has yet to do that. He very well can, have to see.




Goodness me. Asif vs. Abbas is already Wasim vs. McGrath?!

Look, Abbas is probably the best Test debutant bowler. But he does not have the same skillset that Asif did.

He has not repeatedly troubled batsmen (those who already have played him), and he has not bowled to the best batsmen of this era. Teams have yet to study him and work him out.
Click to expand...

An aesthetic comparison. Wasim could do more with the ball, and people enjoyed watching him even if he didn't take wickets. A less extreme version of the Wahab vs Watson phenomenon. You would rarely hear people describe a ball by McGrath as a 'magic ball. You might even say Wasim's skill set was bigger than McGraths's skill set. I think that would be fair in fact. Nonetheless McGrath was the more effective Test bowler, Pakistani protestations notwithstanding.
 
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Usman Chadda said:
Abbas has a long way to go. Asif has had absolute marathon spells, specially when Akhtar went limping off the field more often than not. That spell in Port Elizabeth is one for the ages tbh. Despite Akhtar and Kaneria being part of the attack, Asif single-handedly won us that test in a region where we might not further win one for a while.
Click to expand...

Sure he bowled many spells for the ages and I enjoyed watching him tremendously but I also remember him not doing much a couple of Tests at home, also in Australia, if you look at his record there were a few off Tests, and Tests in which he had limited impact. He was not invincible. Nor of course is Abbas.
 
Syed1 said:
Maybe try reading my post again and this time slowly so that you can understand it. To make it simpler for you to understand let me explain a bit, perhaps this might be an effort in vain knowing your mental state. Where did I say that Asif wasn't a great bowler? He was definitely the best we produced after the generation of Wasim, Waqar, Akhtar but people on this thread are acting as if Asif was some legendary bowler who took fifers for fun. He definitely had his days when he was smashed around and look harmless.


And you are one to talk you claimed Abbas hasn't performed against good opposition when he averages in the teens against England and Australia :)))
Click to expand...


He was a legendary bowler! As good as they can come.

And you're still hurt about the other thread? Probably need to go and read the whole post. :najam


New Yorker said:
An aesthetic comparison. Wasim could do more with the ball, and people enjoyed watching him even if he didn't take wickets. A less extreme version of the Wahab vs Watson phenomenon. You would rarely hear people describe a ball by McGrath as a 'magic ball. You might even say Wasim's skill set was bigger than McGraths's skill set. I think that would be fair in fact. Nonetheless McGrath was the more effective Test bowler, Pakistani protestations notwithstanding.
Click to expand...


Hmm, it would've been right if Abbas was actually more effective than Asif.

How can you tell? Well, look at his average after 20-30 Tests. If it's still below 20, you can say that, and if he continues to do good against the good sides.

Just talking about skill-set, that's true. But Abbas has to prove himself better and more effective than Asif. After 25+ Tests.
 
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Hawkeye said:
He was a legendary bowler! As good as they can come.

And you're still hurt about the other thread? Probably need to go and read the whole post. :najam





Hmm, it would've been right if Abbas was actually more effective than Asif.

How can you tell? Well, look at his average after 20-30 Tests. If it's still below 20, you can say that, and if he continues to do good against the good sides.

Just talking about skill-set, that's true. But Abbas has to prove himself better and more effective than Asif. After 25+ Tests.
Click to expand...

So far, in so far as we can say anything about Abbas, he has been more effective. Better SR and lower Ave. I don't buy this wait until arbitrary number of Tests to decide. Asif himself never played more than 23 Tests, remember? So why wait for 25+ for Abbas? We deify Asif without considering whether that was in fact his own purple patch.
 
Savak said:
Johnathan Trott had figured out the perfect formula to neutralize Asif in the final innings, he got out of the crease and put his front pad just outside the line to take the inswing lbw out of the equation and he was able to read Asif's outswinger with relative ease.

However Asif could have countered this by having the keeper come up to the stumps.
Click to expand...

Yes that infamous Lord’s Test :(

Keep in mind that it took the English batsman four tests to finally figure him out. Not to mention the Trios misdemeanors that game that makes me question how much they really cared at that point.

And yes - Trott did get out of his crease to counter the swing and Kamran was bought up to the stumps but the English were playing bat on ball on a flat Lord’s afternoon.
 
Asif, the guy could easily have been the most phenomenal fast bowler after the Ws for Pakistan.

To understand the level of his genius see how he has made the likes of Pietersen, ABD, Ponting look clueless against him.
 
msb314 said:
Yes that infamous Lord’s Test :(

Keep in mind that it took the English batsman four tests to finally figure him out. Not to mention the Trios misdemeanors that game that makes me question how much they really cared at that point.

And yes - Trott did get out of his crease to counter the swing and Kamran was bought up to the stumps but the English were playing bat on ball on a flat Lord’s afternoon.
Click to expand...

Finch tried the same approach against Abbas but Abbas quickly put his ego aside and instructed the keeper to come up to the stumps
 
Syed1 said:
Nostalgia is an amazing thing. It makes people forget how often Asif seemed like a useless trundler with zero impact who was toyed around by the batsmen.
Click to expand...

If ever in doubt.... think Karachi test match vs India, Sehwag, Dravid, laxman and srt all mesmerised by Asif. Tendulkar ended up on his knees after one dismissal.
 
Asif but would love to have Asif & Abbas open the bowling against SA in December ... that would be epic!
 
Bilal7 said:
Asif was unbelievable but Abbas is inconceivable. That's reflected in their averages and the fact that Abbas is yet to bowl in South Africa, New Zealand or go back to England for some more fun.

An average of 24 is fantastic but compared to a guy with an average of 15, it looks mediocre.
Click to expand...

Asif had a sub 18 avg. in similar amount of matches and didn't have DRS.
 
New Yorker said:
So far, in so far as we can say anything about Abbas, he has been more effective. Better SR and lower Ave. I don't buy this wait until arbitrary number of Tests to decide. Asif himself never played more than 23 Tests, remember? So why wait for 25+ for Abbas? We deify Asif without considering whether that was in fact his own purple patch.
Click to expand...

While a valid point, Abbas hasn't faced adversity yet. A few more matches like Trent Bridge and the numbers will inevitably regress.

He's off to a historic start no doubt and I expect him to ultimately be a sub 20 avg. bowler which would still put him in the company of greats. Just don't expect him to maintain sub 16 avg. :D
 
Savak said:
Johnathan Trott had figured out the perfect formula to neutralize Asif in the final innings, he got out of the crease and put his front pad just outside the line to take the inswing lbw out of the equation and he was able to read Asif's outswinger with relative ease.

However Asif could have countered this by having the keeper come up to the stumps.
Click to expand...

Sadly we never got to see how Asif would adjust past that match.
 
If only Inzi would consider recalling Asif who has been performing in FC since his return ... Asif-Abbas against SA would be a treat to watch ... in his only test tour to SA in 2007, Asif was phenomenal.
 
For those suffering from stunted growth

Capture.JPG



While Asif was a spectacular bowler who could really make the ball talk, heck I was in the stands in Karachi when he put the Indian batting line up in its place, however, all I'm alluding to is that there were often days when Asif was treated like a harmless trundler as evidenced by the stats above. Perhaps this might help people wrap their heads around what I'm trying to say.
 
Asif was more fun to watch.

It was poetry in motion. Watching him operate in England, SA, Karachi 2006 or Sydney 2009/10 remain among my most favorite cricket moments ever.

He used to toy around with the batsmen and make them look stupid before deciding to send them on their way.
 
Asif literally brought Tendulkar to his knees...
 
Syed1 said:
For those suffering from stunted growth

View attachment 84728



While Asif was a spectacular bowler who could really make the ball talk, heck I was in the stands in Karachi when he put the Indian batting line up in its place, however, all I'm alluding to is that there were often days when Asif was treated like a harmless trundler as evidenced by the stats above. Perhaps this might help people wrap their heads around what I'm trying to say.
Click to expand...

8-10 times out of 40 odd innings in his 23 tests career does not amount to "often". If we take the upper limit, that's only ~25% of his innings he didn't have an impact in while ~75% of the time he did.

No body hear is claiming Asif to be invincible as such a bowler has never existed.
 
boomboom6 said:
8-10 times out of 40 odd innings in his 23 tests career does not amount to "often". If we take the upper limit, that's only ~25% of his innings he didn't have an impact in while ~75% of the time he did.

No body hear is claiming Asif to be invincible as such a bowler has never existed.
Click to expand...

Those are 8 instances from his 23 matches, meaning 8 matches and possibly 16 innings. 8/23 is about 1/3rd. So 1/3rd or 33% of his matches he was a harmless trundler.
 
boomboom6 said:
While a valid point, Abbas hasn't faced adversity yet. A few more matches like Trent Bridge and the numbers will inevitably regress.

He's off to a historic start no doubt and I expect him to ultimately be a sub 20 avg. bowler which would still put him in the company of greats. Just don't expect him to maintain sub 16 avg. :D
Click to expand...

If you know the future already I have some more stock tips to ask you.

You may note that the trend in his average is that it is getting lower and lower.

As long as he sandwiches in series in which he averages 10 or so in between the lean spells, he may well keep it up.
 
Syed1 said:
Those are 8 instances from his 23 matches, meaning 8 matches and possibly 16 innings. 8/23 is about 1/3rd. So 1/3rd or 33% of his matches he was a harmless trundler.
Click to expand...

you realize test matches have 2 innings right? 23 tests = 46 innings.

The data disproves your premise emphatically. Pick another fight, this ain't it chief.
 
New Yorker said:
If you know the future already I have some more stock tips to ask you.

You may note that the trend in his average is that it is getting lower and lower.

As long as he sandwiches in series in which he averages 10 or so in between the lean spells, he may well keep it up.
Click to expand...

If he keeps this up he would become the GOAT bowler. But I am anticipating a regression because of law of averages. However, since Abbas is very consistent with his line & length, regressing to low 20s avg. would still be world class.

Anyhow lets see how he does against NZ now. For team's sake I hope he keeps it going. :D
 
boomboom6 said:
you realize test matches have 2 innings right? 23 tests = 46 innings.

The data disproves your premise emphatically. Pick another fight, this ain't it chief.
Click to expand...
I think you are not getting his post .
The data he has showed in his post is overs and wickets per test not per innings . Hope it helps .
 
boomboom6 said:
If he keeps this up he would become the GOAT bowler. But I am anticipating a regression because of law of averages. However, since Abbas is very consistent with his line & length, regressing to low 20s avg. would still be world class.

Anyhow lets see how he does against NZ now. For team's sake I hope he keeps it going. :D
Click to expand...

Abbas has been extremely impressive. Hope he continues his good run against NZ & especially against SA.
 
New Yorker said:
If you know the future already I have some more stock tips to ask you.

You may note that the trend in his average is that it is getting lower and lower.

As long as he sandwiches in series in which he averages 10 or so in between the lean spells, he may well keep it up.
Click to expand...

Law of averages.. it's inevitable.

Though if he can maintain sub-20 average over a good sample size, he'll already be the GOAT.

Statistically that's a bit unlikely.
 
Hawkeye said:
Law of averages.. it's inevitable.

Though if he can maintain sub-20 average over a good sample size, he'll already be the GOAT.

Statistically that's a bit unlikely.
Click to expand...

If I may quote.

"As invoked in everyday life, the "law" usually reflects wishful thinking or a poor understanding of statistics rather than any mathematical principle. While there is a real theorem that a random variable will reflect its underlying probability over a very large sample, the law of averages typically assumes that unnatural short-term "balance" must occur.[3]
 
boomboom6 said:
you realize test matches have 2 innings right? 23 tests = 46 innings.

The data disproves your premise emphatically. Pick another fight, this ain't it chief.
Click to expand...

The stats I showed are per match.
 
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Hasn't Abbas just started, why there is this tendency in Pakistan to compare a new comer with some giant from the history? Asif was good and Abbas is getting there, please wait for sometime.
 
Bob Marley said:
Hasn't Abbas just started, why there is this tendency in Pakistan to compare a new comer with some giant from the history? Asif was good and Abbas is getting there, please wait for sometime.
Click to expand...

Well the irony here is that Asif himself only played 23 Tests. If one can say that he was a giant with that kind of sample, then Abbas is well on his way. Just needs another year or two. Put differently, if there is anyone with whom a comparison would actually be fair, it would be Asif.
 
Savak said:
Johnathan Trott had figured out the perfect formula to neutralize Asif in the final innings, he got out of the crease and put his front pad just outside the line to take the inswing lbw out of the equation and he was able to read Asif's outswinger with relative ease.

However Asif could have countered this by having the keeper come up to the stumps.
Click to expand...

Jos Buttler did the same to Abbas in England.
 
considering Asif struggled to play cricket for more than 6 months at a time, I would go with Abbas.. He's there when the team needs him
 
The comparisons with Asif were very premature.

How can people overhype someone to this extent?
 
Asif was brilliant, but people seem to forget that he trundled hopelessly many times on flat decks. He was often unplayable on grassy pitches, but he was also often bog average on true flat pitches.

That is why pace is an asset - it is not everything, but it is very, very useful. A bowler like Asif or Abbas will always struggle to get the better of quality batsmen when pitch is not doing anything. That is why Asif failed in Limited Overs and so will Abbas.
 
Kevin Petersen on commentary during the recent Test mentioned how he would counter Abbas and why it wouldn't work on Asif. He said he would bat way out of his crease to disrupt the length Abbas is bowling because otherwise you are a sitting duck. He said Abbas doesn't have a serious bumper so there is no need to worry about it. But he said Asif did, so he had to play him from the crease and that's why he had no idea what to do against him.
 
Mamoon said:
Asif was brilliant, but people seem to forget that he trundled hopelessly many times on flat decks. He was often unplayable on grassy pitches, but he was also often bog average on true flat pitches.

That is why pace is an asset - it is not everything, but it is very, very useful. A bowler like Asif or Abbas will always struggle to get the better of quality batsmen when pitch is not doing anything. That is why Asif failed in Limited Overs and so will Abbas.
Click to expand...

Problem with Abbas is that he wasnt able to do even decently well when pitch was offering enough

Asif would have been a handful on a pitch like 2nd test
 
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