Why do Pakistan cricket supporters have trouble accepting that India and SENA are superior to us?

[mominsaigol]

For some reason some members pakpassion forumn have trouble accepting this fact. Now before everyone critises me for the India defeat, remember I never bring that match into discussion lol.

Can pakistan beat sena and India? Yes, but in the same way Sri lanka 2019 and pak 2019 beat 2019 England. It doesn't mean we were superior to 2019 England. Let's do a proper player analysis between current pakistan and current India so that everyone can understand which team is truly superior.

1) Fakhar vs Rohit : both are put of form and shadows of their former selves and both struggle, fakhar is technically limited and struggles with anything that angles away or towards him and rohit struggles against swing.

But Prime rohit has played innings against first string sides and is a genuine ATG, Fakhar is not, and even current has been rohit is superior to current Fakhar lol.

2) Imam vs Shubman Gill: Imam is a very very very good accumulator, I do not hate Imam, but he reached his ceiling since debut, Imam is basically a batsmen from the 1990's functioning in 2023. A good accumulator but a technically limited player in striking

Shubman gill struggles against pace and has issues respecting good line and length deliveries so his game awareness is slightly lacking, bit this lad is becoming an ATG, I guarantee it. Have Imam score a 200 and dominate 1st string attacks like this man has done early on in his career and then we'll talk.

3) Babar vs kholi: again I don't hate babar, I defend him and think this forumn is harsh on him. But you're delusional if you think he's world no 1. Babar is a very very good batsmen, he dominated medium and accumulates against fast and spin well. He is bad against spin but he hangs in their and his temperament is solid. Basically he's a superior version of Imam.

But kholi is compared to Sachin by fans, that speaks of his caliber. Has Babar ever dominated 1st string Australian sides or completly humiliated teams including pakistan over and over like kholi has? Be honest, you think Babar would help chase down 28 of 8? Like kholi did?

Babar is a good accumulator and a great player, Kholi is an ATG and yes current regressed kholi is still superior to Prime Babar.

4) Sheryas Iyer vs Rizwan: not a comparison, Sheryas stomps, sheryas has problems with the short ball only, Rizwan is completly clueless when and limited facing alot of deliveries. He's a medicore bat but people are fooled by his no 2 t20 rank.

5) Rahul/Kishan vs Agha: again not a comparison, you're comparing acrual middle order batsmen to a bit and pieces hack who has fooled us with his 40 Average against 2nd string attacks.

6) Chacha vs Pandya: chacha had a poor LPL, he dominates against weak 2nd string sides, so much so that babar has occasionally brought usama mir over chacha. Pandya is a genuine allrounder who has won games.

7) Jadeja vs Shadab: Shadab is superior bat and even that's debatable because I have seen quality knocks from jadeja, jadeja is a genuine bowler though, not the best spinner, but he ain't bowling full tosses to the best batsmen anytime soon.

8) Bumrah vs Shaheen: Bumrah is superior, Nuff said.

9) Naseem vs Siraj: Naseem is better then siraj but the thing about india's bowling is that they aren't dependent on bunrah, Siraj or thakur. Pandya, kuldeep and jadeja are reliable. Pakistan is dependent on our trio and if they fail then our bits and pieces players bottle it up.

10) Haris vs Shami/Thakur: Haris is better I agree.

11) kuldeep vs usama: Kudleep is a million light years ahead.

^^ From this analysis can you understand why current India is superior? Even if we beat Sri lanka and beat India in Asia cup final assuming rain doesn't intervene, it won't change my mind, one proper player analysis and you'll understand India is still superior to us irrespective of who wins amd loses.


I can compare pakistan to sena teams as well in the same light, but then the post will be too long.

Our fans are delusional atm. We are in for a beating this world cup if we don't groom genuine players soon and rely on technically limited accumulators at the top and bits and pieces middle order who pat themselves on the back abusing 2nd string teams and get exposed as soon as stark, or adil rahseed or kudleep start bowling to them lol.

 

[Ali Active]

Sometimes our fans overrate our players and sometimes They underrate them its not like that they are world beaters but they are certainly not on that low that some fans think.

 

[Ali Active]

And in this WC pak will still make it to semis somehow. but think they will crumble under That game pressure and lose.

 

[jnaveen1980]

India has a lot of weaknesses. One weakness is there for more than 5 or 6 years. After top order collapse they generally don't have anyone to bail out as the tail is way too long. India's lack of part time option doesn't allow India to have extra batter in their ranks. Also current line up has weakness against left arm spin in the middle phase. Literally any team can fancy chances against India if they can trigger top order collapse. If you notice carefully only time when Pakistan was able to either beat or compete against India was whenever INdia lost their top order quickly inside 10 overs. Once that 10 over mark is gone without much damage the gap you are talking about will look much much wider. So Pakistan can still shock India exploiting this one major weakness. Not just Australia. Ausralia, NZ, England all can do this. So the gap can be closed in specific situations. Otherwise overall gap is high. I agree.

 

[saqib.rai]

How one game has totally changed peoples perception of our team. This players that you are saying are inferior have led Pakistan to the number 1 rank. Please have patience

 

[mominsaigol]

How one game has totally changed peoples perception of our team. This players that you are saying are inferior have led Pakistan to the number 1 rank. Please have patience

These players were playing 2nd string sides. The reason why sena and India play 2nd string sides is because their trying to groom youngsters. Aka give them enough experience so that by the time of the next world cup they can be incorporated to their main side, while their best players like kholi, Smith usually come and play here and their before dropping out of the squad and playing domestic or franchise games, because their main players need practise as well.

We Play our full strength and don't bother grooming at all. And every time a world cup comes we face a reality check each and every time.

 

[mominsaigol]

India has a lot of weaknesses. One weakness is there for more than 5 or 6 years. After top order collapse they generally don't have anyone to bail out as the tail is way too long. India's lack of part time option doesn't allow India to have extra batter in their ranks. Also current line up has weakness against left arm spin in the middle phase. Literally any team can fancy chances against India if they can trigger top order collapse. If you notice carefully only time when Pakistan was able to either beat or compete against India was whenever INdia lost their top order quickly inside 10 overs. Once that 10 over mark is gone without much damage the gap you are talking about will look much much wider. So Pakistan can still shock India exploiting this one major weakness. Not just Australia. Ausralia, NZ, England all can do this. So the gap can be closed in specific situations. Otherwise overall gap is high. I agree.

I 100% agree about india's weaknesses, the tail is freakishingly weak and extremely extremely long.

But if you do a player analysis, the gap is high, India is genuinely superior to us. Us winning against them is the same as us winning against 2019 England, it doesn't mean we're superior cause we won a few games.

Rohit is superior to fakhar, Gill is superior to imam, Kholi is superior to babar, Sheryas is superior to rizwan, Kishan/Rahul are better then agha, Pandya is better then chacha.

Their front line bowler bunrah is superior to our front line bowler shaheen. Shaheen isn't even better then naseem or Rauf lol, yet we have him as our front line. Kuldeep is better then all our spinners including abrar if we bring him in.

 

[PakPremi]

There are not many fans who claim Pakistani players are superior to all Indian players or many SENA players, but that does not make Pakistani players useless. Babar, Rizwan, Saud(not given enough chance to prove himself yet), Imam, and Pace trio,, plus Zaman are very good players. So no need to berate Pakistan in numerous threads just because PKistan lost one game against a much superior and lot more experienced team. Pakistan do have poor management and tactically poor captain, so that does not help them doing well a lot of time, but due to brilliance of their players they have Benn in Semi finals and finals of tournaments and even achieved no 1 ranking, no matter how much it is not considered to be true refection of Pakistan team's ability.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Because they aren’t.

Sometimes people just forget that the last two generations of Pakistani cricketers barely played any international cricket in their motherland and missed out on the opportunity to destroy foreign teams and have a sort of a mental edge over them which always helps when you tour.

The best example of this, does anyone remember when Rohit Sharma was being sledged in Australia some years ago and all he said was like we will see you guys in India. Now, he could say it with confidence because firstly he knew historically India crushes Australia in India, secondly he knew Australia will visit India soon so it was a proper warning and a challenge to the Aussies. This is the difference between the two countries.

I would say hats off to Pakistan cricket players for winning two ICC trophies and reaching semis and finals a few more times during the last 15 years of cricket turmoil. Practically almost same as India despite us living through our absolute peak as an economy.

 

[Stewie]

Consistent, maybe but not superior. Everybody knows we blow hot an cold and can beat the best team in the universe on our day. and lose to the most mediocre team on a bad one.


no reason to panic, abhi to party shuru hui hai

 

[mominsaigol]

Because they aren’t.

Sometimes people just forget that the last two generations of Pakistani cricketers barely played any international cricket in their motherland and missed out on the opportunity to destroy foreign teams and have a sort of a mental edge over them which always helps when you tour.

The best example of this, does anyone remember when Rohit Sharma was being sledged in Australia some years ago and all he said was like we will see you guys in India. Now, he could say it with confidence because firstly he knew historically India crushes Australia in India, secondly he knew Australia will visit India soon so it was a proper warning and a challenge to the Aussies. This is the difference between the two countries.

I would say hats off to Pakistan cricket players for winning two ICC trophies and reaching semis and finals a few more times during the last 15 years of cricket turmoil. Practically almost same as India despite us living through our absolute peak as an economy.

Trophy winning and winning a few cricket games has nothing to do with who's a superior team.

Imam, Babar, Fakhar, rizwan, Agha, Chacha and shadab this is the team we have been going with in terms of batting line ups, so much so that we are now forcing changes against Sri lanka.

This batting line up is not batter then rohit, Gill, kholi, sheryas, kishan, Rahul, pandya lol

 

[mominsaigol]

There are not many fans who claim Pakistani players are superior to all Indian players or many SENA players, but that does not make Pakistani players useless. Babar, Rizwan, Saud(not given enough chance to prove himself yet), Imam, and Pace trio,, plus Zaman are very good players. So no need to berate Pakistan in numerous threads just because PKistan lost one game against a much superior and lot more experienced team. Pakistan do have poor management and tactically poor captain, so that does not help them doing well a lot of time, but due to brilliance of their players they have Benn in Semi finals and finals of tournaments and even achieved no 1 ranking, no matter how much it is not considered to be true refection of Pakistan team's ability.

Who's berating them? I literally said imam and Babar are very very very good batsmen.

Also no I've seen people on this forumn outright praise pakistan for their no 1 ranking and berate India.

Imam, Babar, Fakhar and rizwan. This top order pair is not superior then the Gill, rohit, Kholi and sheryas pair.

Neither is our middle order of shadab, Chacha and agha that we've been playing for a while superior to pandya, Kishan/Rahul.

Only jadeja is inferior to shadab in terms of batting ability only. Jadeja is a superior bowler.

 

[mominsaigol]

Sometimes our fans overrate our players and sometimes They underrate them its not like that they are world beaters but they are certainly not on that low that some fans think.

Yh i understand, me however im not overrating or underrating, I'm speaking the truth.

Imam is a very good accumulator and a consistent one, but he ain't a striker, and is a liability if he makes it past 40 overs. Besides that 1 fluke 150 score, he ain't ever making an impact beyond his 100.

Babar is also a very very good accumulator and far superior to Imam, but he ain't the no 1 game changer that people make him out to be. He ain't ever coming close to what kholi has done when chasing totals or making totals even for that matter.

Same with rizwan, Rizwan is a medicore bat. He ain't the worst batsmen to ever exist but he ain't the best. He's an alright bat. He isn't the world's best t20 player that people are making him out to be though. He's an accumulator and a far worse accumulator then Imam and Babar.

 

[160KPH]

Honestly, I think most of the criticism of the Indian team was coming from other Indians not Pakistanis.They are as harsh on their team in the same manner that we are harsh on ours.

This is not the time to overreact though. We climbed to the number 1 rank, scored our highest ever chase recently, beat South Africa in South Africa, and won home series against Australia and New Zealand. Whatever you may think, it’s clear that Pakistani cricket is moving in the right direction while at the current moment India seems to be regressing from their peak as some of their players age out. Obviously this trend can change but this is the most exciting Pakistani team I’ve seen in the last 10 years at least.

 

[Jazx]

Who's berating them? I literally said imam and Babar are very very very good batsmen.

Also no I've seen people on this forumn outright praise pakistan for their no 1 ranking and berate India.

Imam, Babar, Fakhar and rizwan. This top order pair is not superior then the Gill, rohit, Kholi and sheryas pair.

Neither is our middle order of shadab, Chacha and agha that we've been playing for a while superior to pandya, Kishan/Rahul.

Only jadeja is inferior to shadab in terms of batting ability only. Jadeja is a superior bowler.

Are you aware that Jadeja have 3 triple centuries in ranji trophy? There is no way shadab being better batsman than jadeja, shadab is not even a proper batsman. Its only because india have a lot of better options in middle, so jadeja normally bats in lower middle order.

 

[mominsaigol]

Are you aware that Jadeja have 3 triple centuries in ranji trophy? There is no way shadab being better batsman than jadeja, shadab is not even a proper batsman. Its only because india have a lot of better options in middle, so jadeja normally bats in lower middle order.

I already said it was debatable, because I haven't seen much of jadeja. If anything you proved my point, because that just adds further to my point as to why India is genuinely superior to us lol.

 

[Devadwal]

This is over reaction . Pakistan is very good team infect one of the favourite team to win the world Cup 2023.but it's seems like they are panking just before mega event

 

[PakPremi]

Trophy winning and winning a few cricket games has nothing to do with who's a superior team.

Imam, Babar, Fakhar, rizwan, Agha, Chacha and shadab this is the team we have been going with in terms of batting line ups, so much so that we are now forcing changes against Sri lanka.

This batting line up is not batter then rohit, Gill, kholi, sheryas, kishan, Rahul, pandya lol

It does not matter if Pakistan man to man is not better than other superior teams, the fact is with limited resources, poor captain and disastrous management PKistan has done well. So let us enjoy their success and hope they improve their skills further, select even better players, and Babar is directed to captain with attacking mindset.
Pakistan biggest weakness has been that they have not groomed good proper full time spinners due to poor selections.

 

[PakPremi]

Honestly, I think most of the criticism of the Indian team was coming from other Indians not Pakistanis.They are as harsh on their team in the same manner that we are harsh on ours.

This is not the time to overreact though. We climbed to the number 1 rank, scored our highest ever chase recently, beat South Africa in South Africa, and won home series against Australia and New Zealand. Whatever you may think, it’s clear that Pakistani cricket is moving in the right direction while at the current moment India seems to be regressing from their peak as some of their players age out. Obviously this trend can change but this is the most exciting Pakistani team I’ve seen in the last 10 years at least.

I agree just need injection of good spinner and one or two dynamic batsmen. I am sure even Agha will prove good given time and enough opportunities.

 

[mominsaigol]

Honestly, I think most of the criticism of the Indian team was coming from other Indians not Pakistanis.They are as harsh on their team in the same manner that we are harsh on ours.

This is not the time to overreact though. We climbed to the number 1 rank, scored our highest ever chase recently, beat South Africa in South Africa, and won home series against Australia and New Zealand. Whatever you may think, it’s clear that Pakistani cricket is moving in the right direction while at the current moment India seems to be regressing from their peak as some of their players age out. Obviously this trend can change but this is the most exciting Pakistani team I’ve seen in the last 10 years at least.

Everyone is constantly clinging to that icc no 1 rank. We're in for a beating this world cup.

Also brother India is not regressing. Shami isn't even their main line bowler, he literally sits out. Bumrah is back and better then ever. Gill, Kishan, sheryas and pandya make for a solid middle order, same with kudleep who's a gun spinner.

Only issue with India is that rohit is on his last legs and is gearing for retirment and kholi is now deteriorating but kholi is still better then every single one of our batsmen even in the state he's in.

Kholi, Rohit, Jadeja amd shami this is only aged players India is facing.

Dhawan got his replacement found in Gill, Similarly Kishan will replace rohit soon enough once rohit retires which after this world cup he likely will.

India won't feel the effects of any of these 3 players leaving the team, infact their team will get even stronger as they have better replacements.

Only effect they will feel will be that of kholi when he retires. The same way they felt the effects of Dhoni when he retired. Otherwise current out of form rohit, no one will miss and kishan will be a welcome change.

 

[mominsaigol]

It does not matter if Pakistan man to man is not better than other superior teams, the fact is with limited resources, poor captain and disastrous management PKistan has done well. So let us enjoy their success and hope they improve their skills further, select even better players, and Babar is directed to captain with attacking mindset.
Pakistan biggest weakness has been that they have not groomed good proper full time spinners due to poor selections.

Limited resources, Poor Captain, and distaroous management

^^ Broskie you just summed up why the team is poor . How have they done well if you just admitted all these 3 things are in place? Also Pakistan isn't that limited. We have a long list of up and coming players. It's just the management is brain dead and does not know how to groom players even if their life depended on it.

Babar was an exception because mickey Arthur was the only person to realise that babar was born to bat at no 3 in all formats. When babar debuted they played him at no 4 and then shoved him at no 6, typical Pakistan. Mickey came to the rescue hence babar escaped the fate of talented players becoming has beens due to our brain dead management.

 

[mominsaigol]

Limited resources, Poor Captain, and distaroous management

^^ Broskie you just summed up why the team is poor . How have they done well if you just admitted all these 3 things are in place? Also Pakistan isn't that limited. We have a long list of up and coming players. It's just the management is brain dead and does not know how to groom players even if their life depended on it.

Babar was an exception because mickey Arthur was the only person to realise that babar was born to bat at no 3 in all formats. When babar debuted they played him at no 4 and then shoved him at no 6, typical Pakistan. Mickey came to the rescue hence babar escaped the fate of talented players becoming has beens due to our brain dead management.

I'll give you an example. Saim ayub debuted and Pakistan instantly shoved him to no 4 in t20 even though hes an opening batsmen and did not bother to try him out in odi.

The NZ series would have been perfect to send our 2nd string side. No Boult, Henry, Kane Williamson, Devon Conway etc. If it was India or aus or England, they'd have send their 2nd string side to discover players for growth.

We sent our 1st string like brain dead morons

 

[Cricket Warrior]

I agree just need injection of good spinner and one or two dynamic batsmen. I am sure even Agha will prove good given time and enough opportunities.

Agha doesnt look like a sound batsman to me, he always try to play across the line and gets out while playing lame shots.

 

[mominsaigol]

This is over reaction . Pakistan is very good team infect one of the favourite team to win the world Cup 2023.but it's seems like they are panking just before mega event

Brother it isn't an overreaction.

Pakistan is a better team then bangaldesh, Afghanistan, Netherlands and Sri Lanka

And they are on par with South Africa and Mew Zealand. As these teams also have weaknesses.

They are not better then Aus, England, India. Pakistan's top order is composed of 4 technically limited accumulators and middle order is composed of bits and pieces players.

Imam and Babar are world class accumulators and would be amazing additions to have if they had 2019 Level England players on their side. Joe root functioned well when Morgan, Roy, Baorstow, Butler were batting around him. But imam and Babar require hand holding while they anchor and if these 2 fail, then game over for pak.

Our bowling trio is world class, shaheen, naseem and Rauf are killer bowlers and any team will find these lads a nightmare to face. But if they fail, which they will because everyone fails on some occasion, even wasim, waqar and sohaib Akhtar trio has failed on occasion, Pakistan does not have any backup bowlers.

The whole team is relying on the bowling trio and imam and Babar. This problem does not exist for a team like India. They are not dependent on rohit and kholi, if these 2 fail, The others can pull it back and recover, Similarly if bumrah, Siraj and thakur fail, then kuldeep, Pandya and jadeja can pull it back.

 

[Justcrazy]

Pakistan has done well in recent years by getting accumulators in top order. Earlier Pakistan used to be 20 / 3 often , these days top order is solid but the game has changed. Pakistan top order is suited for totals like 260 - 280 . When they get good pitch , they do not have batters who can aim for 330 - 350 . This is the main issue. Pakistan batsmen lack the game plan to bat 20 - 25 overs with run a ball risk free batting. This is long term thing , you need to work at grass root and get such batters. There is NO magic wand or coach in the world who can change this in 3 - 4 months.

 

[mominsaigol]

Pakistan has done well in recent years by getting accumulators in top order. Earlier Pakistan used to be 20 / 3 often , these days top order is solid but the game has changed. Pakistan top order is suited for totals like 260 - 280 . When they get good pitch , they do not have batters who can aim for 330 - 350 . This is the main issue. Pakistan batsmen lack the game plan to bat 20 - 25 overs with run a ball risk free batting. This is long term thing , you need to work at grass root and get such batters. There is NO magic wand or coach in the world who can change this in 3 - 4 months.

This won't change in 3-4 months I am aware of that. I want long term grooming but knowing pakistan that won't happen due to them loving accumulators and bits and pieces players.

As for the whole 20/3 for the misbah era, that was because misbah was brain dead. Any player who had striking ability and performed well at the top at no 3 or 4 like sohaib maqsood who burst onto the seen with 2 50's and an unbeaten 89 was shoved into no 6 or 7 and then turned into a has been due to permeantly incorporating that pinch hitting mentality, while players like asad shafiq or Ahmed shezad or nasir jamshed hogged the Top order.

Difference between Ahmed shezad/nasir/ Asad and imam/ Babar is that imam and Babar are extremely extremely good solid accumulators. Ahmed shezad and asad were no good no talent players who had zero tencique.

Imam and Babar are genuinely good accumulators and strike rotators and that's why we improved. Babar when he debuted was being shoved at no 4 and then at no 6 lol. Credit goes to mickey for understanding that babar was destined to bat at no 3 in all formats and that imam was needed at opening.

If Babar debuted during the time misbah was in charge, you'd see another umar akmal in the making with Babar being an even worse punch hitter at no 6 then umar akmal. Babar is just lucky to escape the misbah fate and land into the palms of mickey Arthur.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Pakistan are ranked #2 in ODI cricket. That's based on 4 years of consistent cricket. No logical person will underrate Pakistan based on that. At least not in this format. They have weaknesses but so do all sides.

Only 8 years ago, Pakistan were ranked #9 in ODI's after chucking was strictly banned and PAK failed to adapt with a completely useless Misbah and an equally useless Waqar at the helm, a domestic structure that was pathetic and churning out talentless players and even 2 years ago the players looked clueless in the face of a 3-0 drubbing by England 'C' side.

Wasim Khan put a structure in place that is churning out some very good players (overhyped by some excitable PAK fans but still) and Ramiz Raja invested in PJL and in a data-driven approach towards cricket which helped identify how best to use the cricketers you are now churning out and also finally got serious about age fraud.

The issue is that some of your ex-captains/players are some of the dumbest guys ever to grace a cricket field and they were all given positions that naturally influence selections/player development etc.

Neither do they have any vision for Pakistan cricket nor do they understand the process needed to achieve results.

And I'm sorry to say Babar does not look like a guy who is either intelligent enough or strong enough to implement his own vision for the side.

Luckily for Pakistan, there are guys like Grant Bradburn, Morne Morkel and Mickey Arthur who I think can bring further change - Bradburn in particular.

 

[Savak]

Man to Man India is a better talented team, they need to have a real off day or be fatigued, tired for them to lose to the Pakistani team. India with their A game will always beat Pakistan on their A game. We have a lot of catching up to do.

 

[mominsaigol]

Man to Man India is a better talented team, they need to have a real off day or be fatigued, tired for them to lose to the Pakistani team. India with their A game will always beat Pakistan on their A game. We have a lot of catching up to do.

Zindabad brother

 

[mominsaigol]

Pakistan are ranked #2 in ODI cricket. That's based on 4 years of consistent cricket. No logical person will underrate Pakistan based on that. At least not in this format. They have weaknesses but so do all sides.

Only 8 years ago, Pakistan were ranked #9 in ODI's after chucking was strictly banned and PAK failed to adapt with a completely useless Misbah and an equally useless Waqar at the helm, a domestic structure that was pathetic and churning out talentless players and even 2 years ago the players looked clueless in the face of a 3-0 drubbing by England 'C' side.

Wasim Khan put a structure in place that is churning out some very good players (overhyped by some excitable PAK fans but still) and Ramiz Raja invested in PJL and in a data-driven approach towards cricket which helped identify how best to use the cricketers you are now churning out and also finally got serious about age fraud.

The issue is that some of your ex-captains/players are some of the dumbest guys ever to grace a cricket field and they were all given positions that naturally influence selections/player development etc.

Neither do they have any vision for Pakistan cricket nor do they understand the process needed to achieve results.

And I'm sorry to say Babar does not look like a guy who is either intelligent enough or strong enough to implement his own vision for the side.

Luckily for Pakistan, there are guys like Grant Bradburn, Morne Morkel and Mickey Arthur who I think can bring further change - Bradburn in particular.

Man to Man: Do you honestly think a batting lineup that typically composes of babar, Imam, Fakhar, rizwan, agha, Shadab and Chacha is superior to india's lineup for rohit, Gill, kholi, sheryas, rahul/kishan, and pandya?

Our batting relies on imam and Babar to play for us and accumulate, and relies on our bowling trio which is world class to get the job done.

But if our bowling trio has an off day or is unfit and suffers injuries like they did against India then game over.

In the first game, India recovered cause their was no other bowler to add pressure after the bowling trio finished its spell.

 

[rickroll]

For some reason some members pakpassion forumn have trouble accepting this fact. Now before everyone critises me for the India defeat, remember I never bring that match into discussion lol.

Can pakistan beat sena and India? Yes, but in the same way Sri lanka 2019 and pak 2019 beat 2019 England. It doesn't mean we were superior to 2019 England. Let's do a proper player analysis between current pakistan and current India so that everyone can understand which team is truly superior.

1) Fakhar vs Rohit : both are put of form and shadows of their former selves and both struggle, fakhar is technically limited and struggles with anything that angles away or towards him and rohit struggles against swing.

But Prime rohit has played innings against first string sides and is a genuine ATG, Fakhar is not, and even current has been rohit is superior to current Fakhar lol.

2) Imam vs Shubman Gill: Imam is a very very very good accumulator, I do not hate Imam, but he reached his ceiling since debut, Imam is basically a batsmen from the 1990's functioning in 2023. A good accumulator but a technically limited player in striking

Shubman gill struggles against pace and has issues respecting good line and length deliveries so his game awareness is slightly lacking, bit this lad is becoming an ATG, I guarantee it. Have Imam score a 200 and dominate 1st string attacks like this man has done early on in his career and then we'll talk.

3) Babar vs kholi: again I don't hate babar, I defend him and think this forumn is harsh on him. But you're delusional if you think he's world no 1. Babar is a very very good batsmen, he dominated medium and accumulates against fast and spin well. He is bad against spin but he hangs in their and his temperament is solid. Basically he's a superior version of Imam.

But kholi is compared to Sachin by fans, that speaks of his caliber. Has Babar ever dominated 1st string Australian sides or completly humiliated teams including pakistan over and over like kholi has? Be honest, you think Babar would help chase down 28 of 8? Like kholi did?

Babar is a good accumulator and a great player, Kholi is an ATG and yes current regressed kholi is still superior to Prime Babar.

4) Sheryas Iyer vs Rizwan: not a comparison, Sheryas stomps, sheryas has problems with the short ball only, Rizwan is completly clueless when and limited facing alot of deliveries. He's a medicore bat but people are fooled by his no 2 t20 rank.

5) Rahul/Kishan vs Agha: again not a comparison, you're comparing acrual middle order batsmen to a bit and pieces hack who has fooled us with his 40 Average against 2nd string attacks.

6) Chacha vs Pandya: chacha had a poor LPL, he dominates against weak 2nd string sides, so much so that babar has occasionally brought usama mir over chacha. Pandya is a genuine allrounder who has won games.

7) Jadeja vs Shadab: Shadab is superior bat and even that's debatable because I have seen quality knocks from jadeja, jadeja is a genuine bowler though, not the best spinner, but he ain't bowling full tosses to the best batsmen anytime soon.

8) Bumrah vs Shaheen: Bumrah is superior, Nuff said.

9) Naseem vs Siraj: Naseem is better then siraj but the thing about india's bowling is that they aren't dependent on bunrah, Siraj or thakur. Pandya, kuldeep and jadeja are reliable. Pakistan is dependent on our trio and if they fail then our bits and pieces players bottle it up.

10) Haris vs Shami/Thakur: Haris is better I agree.

11) kuldeep vs usama: Kudleep is a million light years ahead.

^^ From this analysis can you understand why current India is superior? Even if we beat Sri lanka and beat India in Asia cup final assuming rain doesn't intervene, it won't change my mind, one proper player analysis and you'll understand India is still superior to us irrespective of who wins amd loses.


I can compare pakistan to sena teams as well in the same light, but then the post will be too long.

Our fans are delusional atm. We are in for a beating this world cup if we don't groom genuine players soon and rely on technically limited accumulators at the top and bits and pieces middle order who pat themselves on the back abusing 2nd string teams and get exposed as soon as stark, or adil rahseed or kudleep start bowling to them lol.

Good analysis.

 

[shamaan]

Man to Man: Do you honestly think a batting lineup that typically composes of babar, Imam, Fakhar, rizwan, agha, Shadab and Chacha is superior to india's lineup for rohit, Gill, kholi, sheryas, rahul/kishan, and pandya?

Our batting relies on imam and Babar to play for us and accumulate, and relies on our bowling trio which is world class to get the job done.

But if our bowling trio has an off day or is unfit and suffers injuries like they did against India then game over.

In the first game, India recovered cause their was no other bowler to add pressure after the bowling trio finished its spell.

You picked it based upon the xi pakistan are playing not based upon what they actually should be playing.

 

[mominsaigol]

You picked it based upon the xi pakistan are playing not based upon what they actually should be playing.

I have been saying a million times play saud at no 4, play Abdullah at opening, play tayyab at no 5, play imad over shadab, nawaz and faheem, bring in saim ayub as our backup option, play haris at no 7, have zaman Khan and ihsanullah as pur backup options and have abrar and usama as the front line spinners.

I'm tired of repeating myself at this point. So yes if pakistan think tank wants to keep playing their combination then I will compare their garbo combo to india's current combination because management is too dumb to do the right thing.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Man to Man: Do you honestly think a batting lineup that typically composes of babar, Imam, Fakhar, rizwan, agha, Shadab and Chacha is superior to india's lineup for rohit, Gill, kholi, sheryas, rahul/kishan, and pandya?

Our batting relies on imam and Babar to play for us and accumulate, and relies on our bowling trio which is world class to get the job done.

But if our bowling trio has an off day or is unfit and suffers injuries like they did against India then game over.

In the first game, India recovered cause their was no other bowler to add pressure after the bowling trio finished its spell.

It depends. I think there are obvious weaknesses in that Pakistan lineup that can be exploited. A team that has a good combination and variety of bowlers can and will ruthlessly exploit it with meticulous planning.

Only England do that level of planning and execute that well. India have too many redundant bits and pieces players and Rohit/Kohli don't believe in that level of planning and execution for each batter.

A lot will depend on conditions, toss etc.

 

[mominsaigol]

It depends. I think there are obvious weaknesses in that Pakistan lineup that can be exploited. A team that has a good combination and variety of bowlers can and will ruthlessly exploit it with meticulous planning.

Only England do that level of planning and execute that well. India have too many redundant bits and pieces players and Rohit/Kohli don't believe in that level of planning and execution for each batter.

A lot will depend on conditions, toss etc.

Fair enough. But India doesn't really have bits and pieces besides sky.

Sheryas iyer, Kishan/rahul are genuine middle order batsmen, and pandya is a genuine all rounder, a current regressed kholi is still superior to pur batsmen.

Its just rohit who's the issue and even he's > Fakhar atm.

Jadeja is also an issue and India have an atrocious tail, our tail is superior to India. But even jadeja isn't bits and pieces, he's a good bowler and has accumulated well for India in the past. He's a genuine all rounder, it's just he's the weakest link as he's the weakest batsmen and weakest bowler, but still an allrounder.

Unlike faheem who's a horrible bowler simply pretending to be a batsmen, or even nawaz for that matter who's predominantly a bowler who can pinch hit.

 

[SM1989]

How one game has totally changed peoples perception of our team. This players that you are saying are inferior have led Pakistan to the number 1 rank. Please have patience

Please stop hyping this no 1 ranking. It was built off victories in bilateral series against B string Australia, B string New Zealand, West Indies and weaker sides like Afghanistan and Netherlands.

This Indian team was the first strong team to face Pakistan in a while and we got a massive reality check.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Fair enough. But India doesn't really have bits and pieces besides sky.

Sheryas iyer, Kishan/rahul are genuine middle order batsmen, and pandya is a genuine all rounder, a current regressed kholi is still superior to pur batsmen.

Its just rohit who's the issue and even he's > Fakhar atm.

Jadeja is also an issue and India have an atrocious tail, our tail is superior to India. But even jadeja isn't bits and pieces, he's a good bowler and has accumulated well for India in the past. He's a genuine all rounder, it's just he's the weakest link as he's the weakest batsmen and weakest bowler, but still an allrounder.

Unlike faheem who's a horrible bowler simply pretending to be a batsmen, or even nawaz for that matter who's predominantly a bowler who can pinch hit.

India does have bits and pieces players. Between Axar and Jadeja, we don't have 1 full bowler or 1 full batter and that's a massive issue going forward. Nobody even bowls Travis Head level offspin among our batters. If we can only get 4 overs of off spin, we can play the extra batter and get Jadeja off the lineup. He's useless at 7. Worse than tailender batting. That will strengthen the batting and we can play a better fast bowler instead of Shardul.

That can make this team a whole lot better than it is now. If we keep playing Jadeja at 7 and Thakur at 8, this team will fail.

 

[AZulfi]

Rankings only take into account win/loss ratio or consistency over a certain period of time. They do not take into account quality of the opposition

 

[AZulfi]

Pakistan do have problems against India and Australia (esp. in KO games) in ICC events but saying we have problems against all SENA nations is a bit of an exaggeration.

There is a bit of history too. Pakistan usu. beat New Zealand and South Africa in ICC tournaments. India have had problems against NZ in recent ICC tournaments

 

[AZulfi]

Besides, you can have a bad day in cricket. Did India suddenly become a bad team after the 10-wicket T20 loss to Pakistan? Of course not. The problem is that (many in) the media and (some) fans on both sides of the border create unnecessary hype and put unnecessary pressure on the players.

Look at the first three ODIs between England and NZ. You see very different results. England amassed a massive 368 in the 3rd ODI today and won by 181 runs. NZ chased down 291 for the loss of just 2 wickets in the first ODI. In the second NZ had England reeling at 8/3, 28/4, and 55/5 but England still went on to score a competitive 226/8 (34-over game) which shows depth and quality in their batting.

Pakistan's batting is obviously not as strong as India's. Indian top order is not going to fail in every match. So that was always on the cards. Hindsight is 2/20 but putting India in after winning the toss was a mistake. It shows that you have no confidence in your batting. Most of Pak batsmen (apart from Fakhar (out of form), Imam and Babar) are actually T20 players who do not know how to construct or pace an innings in an ODI game. They either go into their shell or try to hit every ball in the air. 50 is a lot of overs to bat. India also has a better all-around attach esp. when you take into account their spinners.

India is a serious contender for the World Cup for sure along with Australia. England is a close third imo (batting is good but they lack quality spinners). I am under no illusions. Pak only has an outside chance. The top three teams are the ones that I've mentioned above. However, in ODIs, it all comes down to how you perform on the day. Bat first and bat badly and the match is almost as good as over at the halfway mark. And, like in any other sport, the best team does not always win the World Cup. You need a bit of luck as well.

 

[AZulfi]

Rizwan is a decent wicket-keeper batsman but he's not an ODI no.4. Your best batsman usu. bats at that position

 

[mominsaigol]

India does have bits and pieces players. Between Axar and Jadeja, we don't have 1 full bowler or 1 full batter and that's a massive issue going forward. Nobody even bowls Travis Head level offspin among our batters. If we can only get 4 overs of off spin, we can play the extra batter and get Jadeja off the lineup. He's useless at 7. Worse than tailender batting. That will strengthen the batting and we can play a better fast bowler instead of Shardul.

That can make this team a whole lot better than it is now. If we keep playing Jadeja at 7 and Thakur at 8, this team will fail.

That's fair.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Rizwan is a decent wicket-keeper batsman but he's not an ODI no.4. Your best batsman usu. bats at that position

yeah i think rizwan must play at number 5 position in ODIs.

 

[mominsaigol]

yeah i think rizwan must play at number 5 position in ODIs.

Why should rizwan play at no 5? What does that do?

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Why should rizwan play at no 5? What does that do?

If we bring saud shakeel to number 4 so he can handle those spin dominated overs quite well and also he can bring in the left right combo factor, afterwards if rizwan comes on the crease at number 5 position so he can play his natural game which he usually plays in T20 cricket.

 

[160KPH]

Also, let’s not pretend that India hasn’t failed massively in every recent ICC tournament. They always cruise through the group stages and then get badly crushed in the knockout rounds.

 

[mominsaigol]

Also, let’s not pretend that India hasn’t failed massively in every recent ICC tournament. They always cruise through the group stages and then get badly crushed in the knockout rounds.

Chocking is different from actually having a bad team.

If you think the middle order that pakistan typically plays composed of rizwan, Agha, Chacha, Shadab and Faheem/Nawaz is superior to india's current middle order of sheryas, Rahul, Kishan, Pandya amd jadeja then you're out of your mind.

 

[WengerOut]

Couple of issues i found in OP,

1) Gill is a great player of pace but below average against spin.

2) At this point of time, Babar > Kohli but by not much.

3) Iyer is pretty decent nowadays against Short ball. Atleast in Asia.

4) England and Aussies are the top 2 ODI sides. Ind, Pak come after.

 

[160KPH]

Chocking is different from actually having a bad team.

If you think the middle order that pakistan typically plays composed of rizwan, Agha, Chacha, Shadab and Faheem/Nawaz is superior to india's current middle order of sheryas, Rahul, Kishan, Pandya amd jadeja then you're out of your mind.

I actually agree with you! Particularly against spin, it seems strange but for once the Pakistani batting seems to be way worse against spin than pace. Maybe it’s because we don’t have really good spinners in the nets bowling to these guys?

Also, I do think a lot of the guys you listed for the Indian side are really hit or miss. We definitely need to get rid of Shadab and Faheem/Nawaz as soon as possible.

 

[Marooned]

Yawn.

We have seen this self depreciating Khichdi with words "delusional", "reality check", etc for years here. Come up with something original.

 

[adi_62941]

To quickly answer your questions, how many times have we beaten sena countries in worldcup matches even with our legendary star team of 90s?

 

[VForVendetta]

To quickly answer your questions, how many times have we beaten sena countries in worldcup matches even with our legendary star team of 90s?

92
Matches :7
Won: 4
Lost :2
N/R :1
(I am counting WI too since despite their clear decline they were still a force & specially good against sc teams)

96
Matches : 3
Won : 2
Lost : 1

99
Matches : 6
Won : 4
Lost : 2

Total
Matches : 16
Won : 10
Lost : 5
N/R : 1
Success rate : 65.63%
That's a mighty impressive record when you consider how tough those SA & Aus sides were throughout the decade. Only glaring flaw is 3 defeats against SA,which is fine considering they were nearly unbeatable by all sc sides & ofcourse they were the true top dog of that decade. When it comes to bilaterals Pak were absolutely pathetic not only against Aus & SA but even against a mediocre outdated Eng side also. But as it's evident in the world cups Pak more or less held their own. You compare it with Ind & Sri, you will see the massive difference.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Most Wins against South Africa in T20Is

17 - Australia (25 Matches)
17 - India (30 Matches)
14 - West Indies (26 Matches)
12 - England (26 Matches)
12 - Pakistan (22 Matches)
5 - Sri Lanka (18 Matches)
4 - New Zealand (15 Matches)
1 - Ireland (7 Matches)
1 - Netharlands (3 Matches)