Why do we have minorities in Pakistan? Quaid-e-Azam speech of 11th August?

[dhump]

So I was browsing and I found a very interesting link I am sharing it as it is face book and I cant embedd it but here is the link below.

https://www.facebook.com/page.boldo/videos/727722344033394/

Also found same thing being discussed here

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/yKeBYusrlVo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

So now my discussion pointed to both of these videos are.

1) As per words of Qaid E Azam why any Pakistan is considered minority in Pakistan ? why are we all not the same why do we even need a minority in Pakistan ?

2) When Qaid clearly states that state got nothing to do with religion and it is decision of every person...Why state of Pakistan interfere in religion ?

3) As I came to know that this famous speech was removed from library of Radio Pakistan and complete audio is not yet to be found...Isnt it obvious that Pakistan is completely hijacked and its constitution needs to be corrects as per image of Qaid e Azam ?

Link of missing speech controversy.
http://tribune.com.pk/story/602789/...dings-of-jinnahs-aug-11-speech-still-missing/

I would love to have some non hypocritical opinions on this.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

1. State was Hijacked by people who were Opposers of Pakistan and they did not struggle for Pakistan.

These were the Same People who apparently Used to condemn Britishers and under the table used to say " Raqam Berhao "


2. The same people got truck loafs of American Dollars and also raised slogans of Go Amrica Go.


3. These Hypocrites hijacked Quaid e Azam's Pakistan and Quaid e Azam's Pakistan Lost somewhere as Early as 1953.


After the Brutalities of 1953 on name of Religion Justice Munir gave a historic Judgement which needed to be implemented in letter and spirit and Death Punishment was requirement of time as he prescribed to the person who misused religion and caused deaths of Innocent Muslims. The biggest Opposer of Pakistan.


Then these people Sat in the Lap of every dictator and blackmailed the State with their Street Power.



They will never change the Constitution because Constitution for them is Holy because it states something which isn't written in Quran or Any Sahi Hadees.




Liaqat Ali Khan ko eliminate kerne waala bhee yei Tola tha aor Phir Fatima Jinnah ki bhee wo pagrhee uchalee inhoun ne k Bus.



State has got nothing to do with Religion but in Party State defines Religion and State's Laws are against Human Rights.



State is Ghulam of these Evil Brigades and Blackmailers.



State had a great chance to Curb them forever in 1953 but they failed to do it than. Now the kid has grown up into a Malignant Cancer.



We can only Pray.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

There should be No Concept of Minority in Pakistan.

Danda bhee Minorities mein diya hua hai in Flag and woi on ground bhee horaha hai.


Pakistan Flag should be All green with a white Crescent.


And State should not ask you your religion and All Pakistanis should be equal citizens.


Only for Census there should be Column of Religion while at other places No.



Jaldi kero mein Hajj & Umra kerun yaar.

 

[czar]

There should be No Concept of Minority in Pakistan.

Danda bhee Minorities mein diya hua hai in Flag and woi on ground bhee horaha hai.


Pakistan Flag should be All green with a white Crescent.


And State should not ask you your religion and All Pakistanis should be equal citizens.


Only for Census there should be Column of Religion while at other places No.



Jaldi kero mein Hajj & Umra kerun yaar.

Are you in Pakistan? Aren't Ahmadis allowed to visit Saudi Arabia for pilgrimage with a Pakistani Passport?

 

[MSaad1237]

Because Mullahs Hijacked this country ..

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Are you in Pakistan? Aren't Ahmadis allowed to visit Saudi Arabia for pilgrimage with a Pakistani Passport?

I am only a Pakistani National. Proud Pakistani. Love my Soil.


No after 1974 Islam was redefined by People that too Parliamentarians whom few years later Government own White Paper declared Zaani & Sharaabi.



Until 1974 we could go to Hajj & Umra as Muslims and our Passports stated us as Muslims which we are alhamdoulillah.


But in 1974 State played God and tried to make us a Minority. They did not have the shame that Pakistan Resolution was written by An Ahmadi Muslim and Quaid e Azam was asked to come back to India by our 2nd Caliph Mirza Bashir ud Deen Mehmood As through our Imam of Fazal Mosque London to lead the Muslims of Subcontinent for Pakistan struggle. Quaid e Azam announced his return to India first time ever in our Bait ul Fazal Mosque London and is pictured there.


But the State does not teach its children this correct history otherwise they would ask that you declared the same people as Non Muslims ?



So My Passport does not declare me Muslim hence i cannot go for Hajj or Umra from a Pakistani Passport while on other Passports i can go for Hajj and Umrah but i only have my beloved Pakistani Passport so i cannot go for Hajj or Umra as State says you are not Muslim.

 

[czar]

I am only a Pakistani National. Proud Pakistani. Love my Soil.


No after 1974 Islam was redefined by People that too Parliamentarians whom few years later Government own White Paper declared Zaani & Sharaabi.



Until 1974 we could go to Hajj & Umra as Muslims and our Passports stated us as Muslims which we are alhamdoulillah.


But in 1974 State played God and tried to make us a Minority. They did not have the shame that Pakistan Resolution was written by An Ahmadi Muslim and Quaid e Azam was asked to come back to India by our 2nd Caliph Mirza Bashir ud Deen Mehmood As through our Imam of Fazal Mosque London to lead the Muslims of Subcontinent for Pakistan struggle. Quaid e Azam announced his return to India first time ever in our Bait ul Fazal Mosque London and is pictured there.


But the State does not teach its children this correct history otherwise they would ask that you declared the same people as Non Muslims ?



So My Passport does not declare me Muslim hence i cannot go for Hajj or Umra from a Pakistani Passport while on other Passports i can go for Hajj and Umrah but i only have my beloved Pakistani Passport so i cannot go for Hajj or Umra as State says you are not Muslim.

Sorry to know that Man and it's not the business of the state to decide the religion of an individual.

Hopefully someday in the future, Pakistan can return back to the days of no extremism.

Things have got to change for that to happen though, mindset of the people needs to change. Do you see any hope in the future?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Sorry to know that Man and it's not the business of the state to decide the religion of an individual.

Hopefully someday in the future, Pakistan can return back to the days of no extremism.

Things have got to change for that to happen though, mindset of the people needs to change. Do you see any hope in the future?

In near future ? Not At All.

But State has to seperate itself soon otherwise God Forbid things would go downhill further because these termites will eat States Roots.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Any patriotic Pakistani will be angered and hurt by the religious hijacking of our country. Unfortunately, there are many among us who put religion ahead of country, which is toxic for our society.

 

[dhump]

ok so I got the answer not many are bothered about it .

P.S. Please dont change this to Ahmadies vs Rest of Pakistan thread I am trying to discuss Pakistanis declared minorities religion is not in discussion.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

ok so I got the answer not many are bothered about it .

P.S. Please dont change this to Ahmadies vs Rest of Pakistan thread I am trying to discuss Pakistanis declared minorities religion is not in discussion.

Congratulations on getting your thread back.

It is nothing short of a Moujza.



Lets Pray that now instead of discussing Quaid e Azam's Speech the pseudointellectuals do not take another turn and say Najam Sethi is RAW, CIA agent bla bla just because He is quoting Quaid e Azam.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Oh what irony .... In a hypothetical Pakistan of majority ahmedis

- would resemble Iranian rule with a supreme leader being the caliph till his death.
- It would not be democratic but an theocratic nation.
- it would be a highly annoyingly prosletising country.
- the biggest irony of all would be that they would consider anyone else who didn't believe in Mirza to be a non-Muslim.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Oh what irony .... In a hypothetical Pakistan of majority ahmedis

- would resemble Iranian rule with a supreme leader being the caliph till his death.
- It would not be democratic but an theocratic nation.
- it would be a highly annoyingly prosletising country.
- the biggest irony of all would be that they would consider anyone else who didn't believe in Mirza to be a non-Muslim.

This. One of my favourite arguments is what if they were a majority.

 

[dhump]

Oh what irony .... In a hypothetical Pakistan of majority ahmedis

- would resemble Iranian rule with a supreme leader being the caliph till his death.
- It would not be democratic but an theocratic nation.
- it would be a highly annoyingly prosletising country.
- the biggest irony of all would be that they would consider anyone else who didn't believe in Mirza to be a non-Muslim.

Ok Good hypothetical analysis from your POV keep researching on this topic.

What about the actual question in OP ??

 

[Lords]

So I was browsing and I found a very interesting link I am sharing it as it is face book and I cant embedd it but here is the link below.

https://www.facebook.com/page.boldo/videos/727722344033394/

Also found same thing being discussed here

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/yKeBYusrlVo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

So now my discussion pointed to both of these videos are.

1) As per words of Qaid E Azam why any Pakistan is considered minority in Pakistan ? why are we all not the same why do we even need a minority in Pakistan ?

2) When Qaid clearly states that state got nothing to do with religion and it is decision of every person...Why state of Pakistan interfere in religion ?

3) As I came to know that this famous speech was removed from library of Radio Pakistan and complete audio is not yet to be found...Isnt it obvious that Pakistan is completely hijacked and its constitution needs to be corrects as per image of Qaid e Azam ?

Link of missing speech controversy.
http://tribune.com.pk/story/602789/...dings-of-jinnahs-aug-11-speech-still-missing/

I would love to have some non hypocritical opinions on this.

Things were lot different in 1940s and 50s.
Jinnah wanted a welfare state, he had a minority write its national antham, white in pakistani flag to symbolize minority as equal status, he even celebrated independence day on 15th august. He wanted open border type relation with India and retained his house in Bombay, he thought he could go there to visit like he used to even after separation.

He couldnt produce a second, third line of leaders who could carry his agenda after him. But later on after his early demise his agenda was highjacked by powerful people with different agenda. The leadership void after his death was quickly filled by army and pakistan moved towards a security state instead of welfare state.
Even the slogan Pakistan ka matlab kya .... came much after his death.

I think if he lived for 10 more years then we would have a very different equation in indian subcontinent today.

 

[Mamoon]

An uncomfortable issue for our resident patriots.

If this thread was about the plight of Muslims in the West, the usual suspects would have been flocking in numbers, and these hypocrites know who they are.

The Pakistan that we have today is not the Pakistan M. A. Jinnah wanted. After all, he appointed an Ahmadi as his Foreign Minister.

Unfortunately, this country has been hijacked by extremists whose foundation was laid by Bhutto, who specifically targeted Ahmadis and later his spawn Zia took it one step forward.

However, what M. A. Jinnah wanted is another matter. We also need to consider why Pakistan was created in the first place - it was formed on religious grounds. When you create a country because of religion, how do you expect it to be secular in nature and function?

Pakistan was a ticking bomb as far as the role of minorities is concerned, and what happened was inevitable.

Without question, one of the worst countries in the world as far as living as a minority is concerned.

 

[dhump]

Things were lot different in 1940s and 50s.
Jinnah wanted a welfare state, he had a minority write its national antham, white in pakistani flag to symbolize minority as equal status, he even celebrated independence day on 15th august. He wanted open border type relation with India and retained his house in Bombay, he thought he could go there to visit like he used to even after separation.

He couldnt produce a second, third line of leaders who could carry his agenda after him. But later on after his early demise his agenda was highjacked by powerful people with different agenda. The leadership void after his death was quickly filled by army and pakistan moved towards a security state instead of welfare state.
Even the slogan Pakistan ka matlab kya .... came much after his death.

I think if he lived for 10 more years then we would have a very different equation in indian subcontinent today.

Good analysis of whole situation and that clarifies that all these lifafa patriots trying to take Jinnah's view of Pakistan ahead are nothing but hypocrites looking for self benefit out of nation.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Does it even matter what Jinnah thought? We are in 2016 - the majority of Pakistanis should decide what kind of state they want to live in and not someone who died decades ago.

For example, if Jinnah wanted a seperation of religion and state whereas the vast majority of Pakistanis today want the opposite who should get their way? Surely it should be the latter.

 

[dhump]

An uncomfortable issue for our resident patriots.

If this thread was about the plight of Muslims in the West, the usual suspects would have been flocking in numbers, and these hypocrites know who they are.

The Pakistan that we have today is not the Pakistan M. A. Jinnah wanted. After all, he appointed an Ahmadi as his Foreign Minister.

Unfortunately, this country has been hijacked by extremists whose foundation was laid by Bhutto, who specifically targeted Ahmadis and later his spawn Zia took it one step forward.

However, what M. A. Jinnah wanted is another matter. We also need to consider why Pakistan was created in the first place - it was formed on religious grounds. When you create a country because of religion, how do you expect it to be secular in nature and function?

Pakistan was a ticking bomb as far as the role of minorities is concerned, and what happened was inevitable.

Without question, one of the worst countries in the world as far as living as a minority is concerned.

This was always my biggest concern with Pakistan..If I think from back of my mind there are only 2 nations I think found based on religion Pakistan and Israel and both of these nations have nothing but chaos.

It is also very very stupid to think that you can found a nation based on religion when religion in it self is distributed in between so many sects and Pakistan is prime example of this.

I think and most of us consider Jinnah as supreme tactician, but it baffles me that he failed to for see what monster he is creating or simply this was not his goal (as many suggests and uber patriots in Pakistan are always ready to chop their heads off). Also when Pakistan was created (willingly or unwillingly) Jinnah tried his best to cancel this concept by saying in his speech that religion is something personal and amazingly we lost the tape .

Minorities well there condition and situation is discussed far too much around here so lets leave it a side, but for this thread I am just ticked of upon the fact that why do we have minorities in Pakistan ?? why someone is minority when its founder never planned anything like this.

 

[dhump]

Does it even matter what Jinnah thought? We are in 2016 - the majority of Pakistanis should decide what kind of state they want to live in and not someone who died decades ago.

For example, if Jinnah wanted a seperation of religion and state whereas the vast majority of Pakistanis today want the opposite who should get their way? Surely it should be the latter.

Because back in 1940s all these so called minorities stood with Jinnah and supported him...clearly some solution should be found for them, currently I have a feeling if we try a referendum the "final solution" coming out of it will not be better than what Third Reich had to offer.

This is why it matters also for the reason that all the patriots actually like Jinnah and say that his vision is vision of Pakistan and clearly his vision sounds better for 2016 not the vision Pakistan is currently running on.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It's an issue best decided by those who live there, as someone who only has a distant relationship I can only observe with slight interest on the musings of others who are also expatriates.

 

[dhump]

It's an issue best decided by those who live there, as someone who only has a distant relationship I can only observe with slight interest on the musings of others who are also expatriates.

I guess you have same opinion about Palestine,Kashmir,Syria,India etc ? right

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I guess you have same opinion about Palestine,Kashmir,Syria,India etc ? right

Yes.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Things were lot different in 1940s and 50s.
Jinnah wanted a welfare state, he had a minority write its national antham, white in pakistani flag to symbolize minority as equal status, he even celebrated independence day on 15th august. He wanted open border type relation with India and retained his house in Bombay, he thought he could go there to visit like he used to even after separation.

He couldnt produce a second, third line of leaders who could carry his agenda after him. But later on after his early demise his agenda was highjacked by powerful people with different agenda. The leadership void after his death was quickly filled by army and pakistan moved towards a security state instead of welfare state.
Even the slogan Pakistan ka matlab kya .... came much after his death.

I think if he lived for 10 more years then we would have a very different equation in indian subcontinent today.

I agree with 90 % of what you have written. But there was no need to differenciate Minorities in National Flag. All Green woul have been fine with a white Crescent.


Liaqat Ali Khan was his natural Heir. His ideology was the same as Quaid e Azam and He had actively taken part in creation of Pakistan. He was Martyred now this is not the mistake of Quaid e Azam.


Quaid e Azam's death aswell as Fatima Jinnah's death was also mysterious unfortunately.



The Simple Truth is that Quaid e Azam's Ideology and Agenda got lost after the death of Liaqat Ali Khan and Pakistan got hijacked by Opposers of Pakistan who were and are Hypocrites and just jumped in for Power, Greed and with a Wisdom and Belief that Now they are the Thaanedaar's Thaykaydaar's of Pakistan.


Successive Dictatotships did not help either.



Than Pakistan got a Genuine Leader Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto who was Secular and Progressive. He had all the qualities.


But After Losing Bengal Province due to His Power Struggles and Greed along with Failure of Army Bhutto started losing it. So to gain Support of Danda Brigade and Sarhakk Party because of the fear of them Showing Immense street Power and Destabilising Government and ending his time as PM he took them into His Goudd. With a Successful OIC Conference Bhutto started flying high yet again and started thinking of himself as a Global Muslim Leader and Head of Ummah. The Danda Brigade and Sarhak Party gave him khoob Hawaa as they loved to see Pakistan Thaykaydaar of Muslim Ummah aswell.


Than the anti Pakistan elements went to Bhutto and said " Bus Hamara Yeh Kaam ker dou than Agle 10 Saal bhee Kursi pe Bethay Raho we will Support You "

If not than feel the Music of Sarhak & Khoon and Yoi can't survive our Religious Card.


From there On All Fell Apart Completely. Zia Came and he did further Burbaadi and upto Today Zia's legacy continues.



In Quaid's Pakistan State had nothing to do with Religion but of Today's Pakistan State & Religion are Part & Parcel of Each Other.

 

[dhump]

Yes.

Than please go through your posting history I can see you discussing way too much on issues based in Pakistan,India etc.

It is quite shameful actually that you actually wrote yes on it.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

An uncomfortable issue for our resident patriots.

If this thread was about the plight of Muslims in the West, the usual suspects would have been flocking in numbers, and these hypocrites know who they are.

The Pakistan that we have today is not the Pakistan M. A. Jinnah wanted. After all, he appointed an Ahmadi as his Foreign Minister.

Unfortunately, this country has been hijacked by extremists whose foundation was laid by Bhutto, who specifically targeted Ahmadis and later his spawn Zia took it one step forward.

However, what M. A. Jinnah wanted is another matter. We also need to consider why Pakistan was created in the first place - it was formed on religious grounds. When you create a country because of religion, how do you expect it to be secular in nature and function?

Pakistan was a ticking bomb as far as the role of minorities is concerned, and what happened was inevitable.

Without question, one of the worst countries in the world as far as living as a minority is concerned.

I have only a little disagreement on the Ideology Part. Rest All is True, Factual & Reality.


Pakistan was Created For Majority Muslims of this Region to have Social, Cultural, Religious and Economic Freedom. Where the Plea was that they were not getting it as a Community.


But Pakistan was not made for Islam. It was not made for the service of Islam (Which we haven't done upto date despite claims).


Clearly it was mentioned that State would have nothing to do with religion. It will give religious freedom to All, it will give human rights to all but neither the State would interfere in People's Religion or there Personal matters concerning religion nor the Religion will interfere in the matters of State.



Until the Life of Liaqat Ali Khan all was fine. But from 1953 Fasaadaat it all fell Apart.



If Pakistan's creation would have been a mistake than we would have Seen it Upfront in the first 6 years. Clearly State did not take unexpected wrong turns than and Quaid's vision stayed there but Liaqat Ali Khan's Martyrdom started all the Mess.

 

[Lords]

I wonder if you guys have heard Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad about the issue of seperation with India. He was a major leader in pre partition India and had played a vital role in fight for independence while staying in India.

Many of his prediction have come true. I recommand.

 

[Markhor]

An uncomfortable issue for our resident patriots.

If this thread was about the plight of Muslims in the West, the usual suspects would have been flocking in numbers, and these hypocrites know who they are.

The Pakistan that we have today is not the Pakistan M. A. Jinnah wanted. After all, he appointed an Ahmadi as his Foreign Minister.

Unfortunately, this country has been hijacked by extremists whose foundation was laid by Bhutto, who specifically targeted Ahmadis and later his spawn Zia took it one step forward.

However, what M. A. Jinnah wanted is another matter. We also need to consider why Pakistan was created in the first place - it was formed on religious grounds. When you create a country because of religion, how do you expect it to be secular in nature and function?

Pakistan was a ticking bomb as far as the role of minorities is concerned, and what happened was inevitable.

Without question, one of the worst countries in the world as far as living as a minority is concerned.

Good post especially the bolded. People have me down as anti-Zia yet I've always said the roots of Pakistani radicalisation began with ZAB's capitulation to the religious right for his own political survival. Its one of the most sorry and darkest chapters in the history of so-called "liberal" PPP. NFP's article "The 1974 Ouster of the Heretics" in 2013 gave an in-depth analysis of what happened in the events leading up to the declaration of Ahmadis as non-Muslims.
[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] you mention the Munir Report, have you heard of the Rabwa incident of 1974 ? I'll sum up the incident as follows:

1) On 22nd May 1974, over hundred members of the IJT boarded a train to Peshawar. On their way, they stopped off at Rabwa station - a predominantly Ahmadi town.

2) As the train stopped, IJT members got out and cursed the hell out of Ahmadis and raised slogans against them. They then proceeded to Peshawar without untoward incident.

3) When the incident was relayed to Ahmadi leaders in Rabwa, they ordered Ahmadi youth to reach the station with hockey sticks and clubs when the train stops again at Rabwa on its way back from Peshawar on the 29th. So on that day, dozens of young Ahmadi men gathered at the Rabwa station and beat up 30 IJT members. A non-Ahmadi man who witnessed the incident at the station told reporters that both the incidents were unprecedented. "Someone wanted this to happen" he said. NFP noted that the first incident had only been briefly reported by the newspapers, the news of the attack on IJT was widely displayed in the press.

4) JI demanded that the culprits of the attack be apprehended or the party would hold countrywide protest rallies. They demanded that Ahmadis be removed from the bureaucracy and the government. Despite Punjab government setting up an inquiry, all the right-wing parties and ulema held rallies. The leaders of the protests then demanded that Ahmadis be excommunicated from Islam.

This lead to a major pogrom against Ahmadis across Punjab.

To be fair, Bhutto did crack down on the pogrom. Bhutto said a bill declaring Ahmadis a minority and pushing them out from state and government institutions would be detrimental to the economy and political stability of the country. He also protested that the issue was a religious one and hence the National Assembly should not be used to resolve it. But the 1973 Constitution declared Pakistan an Islamic Republic so how he claim religious affairs had no place in the Assembly ?

Advisors then told Bhutto he faced losing major support including party members sympathetic to the demands of the opposition.

On September 7th 1974, the declaration was passed and the Ahmadis became a non-Muslim minority. In the aftermath, large numbers of Ahmadis who were actively involved in the fields of business, science, teaching and the civil service began to move out of Pakistan. That day Pakistan committed a national act of self-harm. Our loss.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Than please go through your posting history I can see you discussing way too much on issues based in Pakistan,India etc.

It is quite shameful actually that you actually wrote yes on it.

I post according to the posters and topics that are brought up here, no more no less. I don't see anything shameful in that. I don't see how you can lay the blame for Syria, India, Pakistan or Palestine being discussed here at my door.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Good post especially the bolded. People have me down as anti-Zia yet I've always said the roots of Pakistani radicalisation began with ZAB's capitulation to the religious right for his own political survival. Its one of the most sorry and darkest chapters in the history of so-called "liberal" PPP. NFP's article "The 1974 Ouster of the Heretics" in 2013 gave an in-depth analysis of what happened in the events leading up to the declaration of Ahmadis as non-Muslims.
[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] you mention the Munir Report, have you heard of the Rabwa incident of 1974 ? I'll sum up the incident as follows:

1) On 22nd May 1974, over hundred members of the IJT boarded a train to Peshawar. On their way, they stopped off at Rabwa station - a predominantly Ahmadi town.

2) As the train stopped, IJT members got out and cursed the hell out of Ahmadis and raised slogans against them. They then proceeded to Peshawar without untoward incident.

3) When the incident was relayed to Ahmadi leaders in Rabwa, they ordered Ahmadi youth to reach the station with hockey sticks and clubs when the train stops again at Rabwa on its way back from Peshawar on the 29th. So on that day, dozens of young Ahmadi men gathered at the Rabwa station and beat up 30 IJT members. A non-Ahmadi man who witnessed the incident at the station told reporters that both the incidents were unprecedented. "Someone wanted this to happen" he said. NFP noted that the first incident had only been briefly reported by the newspapers, the news of the attack on IJT was widely displayed in the press.

4) JI demanded that the culprits of the attack be apprehended or the party would hold countrywide protest rallies. They demanded that Ahmadis be removed from the bureaucracy and the government. Despite Punjab government setting up an inquiry, all the right-wing parties and ulema held rallies. The leaders of the protests then demanded that Ahmadis be excommunicated from Islam.

This lead to a major pogrom against Ahmadis across Punjab.

To be fair, Bhutto did crack down on the pogrom. Bhutto said a bill declaring Ahmadis a minority and pushing them out from state and government institutions would be detrimental to the economy and political stability of the country. He also protested that the issue was a religious one and hence the National Assembly should not be used to resolve it. But the 1973 Constitution declared Pakistan an Islamic Republic so how he claim religious affairs had no place in the Assembly ?

Advisors then told Bhutto he faced losing major support including party members sympathetic to the demands of the opposition.

On September 7th 1974, the declaration was passed and the Ahmadis became a non-Muslim minority. In the aftermath, large numbers of Ahmadis who were actively involved in the fields of business, science, teaching and the civil service began to move out of Pakistan. That day Pakistan committed a national act of self-harm. Our loss.

First of all you have completely ignored 1953 fasadaat and justice munir report. Death Penalty was handed to Maulana Maudoodi for his movement against Ahmadi Muslims where many Ahmadi Muslims were Martyred and their Properties and Businesses were burnt to Ashes just because of theological differences and hate mongering and slogans of Allah's blessings if you Harm Ahmadis and promises of Paradise in afterlife.



Are you trying to Imply that a Train Incidence of Voilence should be the reason of Declaring a Community Non Muslim ? ?


If in a Christian Country such a Incidence happens between Protestants and Catholics will the State go into Parliament session deciding whether Protestants are christians or not ?



IJT had threatened to Enter Rabwah and beat the Hell out of Ahmadi Muslims and destroy them, their families and Properties double this time than what they did in 1953. We approached Police to give Us Protection but they raised their hands and said this is your issue go and handle it yourself.


Is this the Role of State ? Isn't the State supposed to give Protection to its citizen's and their properties ?


What should we have done ? ?


We than sent our Youth as Protection Shield. IJT was not coming to Rabwah to give us flowers and sweets. They were voilent and they were coming to draw hell upon Us. Than there was a scuffle over there from both sides. We were helpless and we had to defend ourselves. We could not afford killing of dozens of Ahmadi Muslims again and our houses and properties being burnt again.



These are the same people who wanted 9 years old Down's Syndrome Christian patient to be given Death Punishment for blasphemy or be handed over to them. Why did the State than flew her and her family out of Pakistan ? ?




Lastly why did they keep a rule that for the next 35 years the In Camera Session won't be made Public ? Where is the Video Tape of All the discussion ? So that Entire Pakistan and World sees that discussion of what happened in Parliament. They released a Text format. You can edit as much as u can of anybody's point of view but in Video you have to present all the debate in ful of the total hours of discussion.


In Last PPP term a Canadian Muslim doing Phd in Theology wrote to the Speaker National Assembly that He has to write a Thesis for which He requires that Video Tape as now timelimit is over. She wrote back to him that Few years ago We had a Fire incidence in our Media Library where all Casettes were present and that Video Tape got burnt.


What sort of Fire is this which only burns 1 Video Tape in a Room ?


This was reported by Jung News in their daily Urdu Newspaper.

 

[Indiafan]

Oh what irony .... In a hypothetical Pakistan of majority ahmedis

- would resemble Iranian rule with a supreme leader being the caliph till his death.
- It would not be democratic but an theocratic nation.
- it would be a highly annoyingly prosletising country.
- the biggest irony of all would be that they would consider anyone else who didn't believe in Mirza to be a non-Muslim.

Isn't this very similar to the argument Trump and other Islam haters make? Muslims will take over our country. Every women will need to wear a burqa. Sharia law will apply in Europe. Europe will no longer have democratic but theocratic nations. Biggest irony of all will be that Christians will be persecuted. Etc, etc? It is funny how extremists on all sides are so similar in rhetoric.

 

[dhump]

I post according to the posters and topics that are brought up here, no more no less. I don't see anything shameful in that. I don't see how you can lay the blame for Syria, India, Pakistan or Palestine being discussed here at my door.

I am just enjoying the visible contradiction is your statements and actions.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I am just enjoying the visible contradiction is your statements and actions.

Really. You should point out these visible contradictions for those with less keen eyesight than you.

 

[dhump]

Really. You should point out these visible contradictions for those with less keen eyesight than you.

It's an issue best decided by those who live there, as someone who only has a distant relationship I can only observe with slight interest on the musings of others who are also expatriates.

Keep this in perspective and check your postings all around the forum you can see it yourself.

I dont want to do boring labor sorry.

 

[Markhor]

Are you trying to Imply that a Train Incidence of Voilence should be the reason of Declaring a Community Non Muslim ? ?

You've got the wrong impression, I'm agreeing with you ! I was just relaying the background of how the 1974 bill got passed hence why I didn't mention 1953. Reading the accounts, its evident IJT deliberately set about to provoke the Ahmadis of Rabwa. The students arrived carrying anti-Ahmadi placards so it cannot have been an innocent accident. They ran a pernicious media campaign about how the students received such grievous injuries, that they had their tongues slashed and genitals cut off.

Yet during the inquiry after the incident set up by Punjab Government - there was NO medical evidence of any such injuries. There were only bruises and scars. Justice Samdani has on record in interviews and his biography confirming this. Immediately the conservative Urdu press, like the journal run by Ahrar leader Agha Shorish Kashmiri printed inflammatory headlines like "100 Students of Nishtar Medical College Attacked by Qadiani Dogs in Rabwah" - and the religious parties exploited the incident to project it as a growing sign of Ahmadi power in the country.

Finally, on the 1974 bill and why people need to stop calling PPP a liberal party. One would think any self-respecting liberal would never boast about one of the darkest moments in their country's history, such a disgraceful piece of legislation. Yet Raja Pervez Ashraf boasted in a speech in Azad Kashmir, "If someone has served Islam, only the government of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto has. It solved the 90-year-old problem, the problem of Qadianis [Ahmadis] who challenged the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. The PPP shut them up, broke their neck and buried the [Ahmadi] problem."

Yet Bhutto himself did a U-turn on the issue. On 3rd June 1974, Bhutto accused his opponents of manufacturing the Rabwa controversy against Ahmadis (true). The next day, the Speaker of National Assembly ruled out a debate on Ahmadi issue, saying that the Constitution already defined religious minorities. Yet 10 days later on 13 June, Bhutto changed his position and declared that he would ask parliament to debate and vote on whether Ahmadis were Muslim ! Funnily enough, despite this bid to pacify the religious right, the same folks were out on the streets celebrating when ZAB was deposed. All those efforts at appeasing his opponents for nothing.

 

[Buffet]

Why will you not have minorities when country itself is founded on basis of religion?

 

[troodon]

Are Ahmadis allowed to do Haj?

Do Saudis allow Ahmadis in their holy lands and consider them Muslims or Muslim enough?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Keep this in perspective and check your postings all around the forum you can see it yourself.

I dont want to do boring labor sorry.

I already answered this, I respond to posts and threads according to their topic. If anyone has an issue they are free to respond in said topic.

Politics in Pakistan bores me somewhat so I tend to stay away from those threads, if you study my posts so closely you should have noticed it.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Are Ahmadis allowed to do Haj?

Do Saudis allow Ahmadis in their holy lands and consider them Muslims or Muslim enough?

Pakistani Ahmadi Muslims who hold only Pakistani Passport cannot do Hajj.

Others Can and Do.


SA cannot stop us from doing hajj unless we have a Pakistani Passport only.

 

[troodon]

Pakistani Ahmadi Muslims who hold only Pakistani Passport cannot do Hajj.

Others Can and Do.


SA cannot stop us from doing hajj unless we have a Pakistani Passport only.

This means the issue is only with Pakistani Sunni Muslims who are quick to judge who is Muslim and who is not.

If Arabs do not have problem with Ahmadis, why would Pakistani Muslims have? Probably trying to be more Muslim than Arabs?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

You've got the wrong impression, I'm agreeing with you ! I was just relaying the background of how the 1974 bill got passed hence why I didn't mention 1953. Reading the accounts, its evident IJT deliberately set about to provoke the Ahmadis of Rabwa. The students arrived carrying anti-Ahmadi placards so it cannot have been an innocent accident. They ran a pernicious media campaign about how the students received such grievous injuries, that they had their tongues slashed and genitals cut off.

Yet during the inquiry after the incident set up by Punjab Government - there was NO medical evidence of any such injuries. There were only bruises and scars. Justice Samdani has on record in interviews and his biography confirming this. Immediately the conservative Urdu press, like the journal run by Ahrar leader Agha Shorish Kashmiri printed inflammatory headlines like "100 Students of Nishtar Medical College Attacked by Qadiani Dogs in Rabwah" - and the religious parties exploited the incident to project it as a growing sign of Ahmadi power in the country.

Finally, on the 1974 bill and why people need to stop calling PPP a liberal party. One would think any self-respecting liberal would never boast about one of the darkest moments in their country's history, such a disgraceful piece of legislation. Yet Raja Pervez Ashraf boasted in a speech in Azad Kashmir, "If someone has served Islam, only the government of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto has. It solved the 90-year-old problem, the problem of Qadianis [Ahmadis] who challenged the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. The PPP shut them up, broke their neck and buried the [Ahmadi] problem."

Yet Bhutto himself did a U-turn on the issue. On 3rd June 1974, Bhutto accused his opponents of manufacturing the Rabwa controversy against Ahmadis (true). The next day, the Speaker of National Assembly ruled out a debate on Ahmadi issue, saying that the Constitution already defined religious minorities. Yet 10 days later on 13 June, Bhutto changed his position and declared that he would ask parliament to debate and vote on whether Ahmadis were Muslim ! Funnily enough, despite this bid to pacify the religious right, the same folks were out on the streets celebrating when ZAB was deposed. All those efforts at appeasing his opponents for nothing.

Even before your 2nd Post i was preparing to send you a thesis of a Non Ahmadi student . But I read your Post to take out some quotes and i found out that I misunderstood and got the wrong impression at first place and indeed you just carry forwarded the argument i started giving finer details. So i was about to say Sorry before your second post gave me a notification.


Yes their claim was that Ahmadi youth God Forbid cut the tongues and private parts of IJT students but Medical Reports could not substantiate these false accusations. You are right.


And you have colloquially analysed the entire Situation with the factual portrayal of all the events.




When Ex Prime Minister says about a religious Community of his own Country that " Hum ne Qaadianioun ka Gala Duba Diya " than what sort of Equal rights equal Human Rights they say they Give to Minorities ?


Koi Apne Mulk k Shehrioun k Mutalliq aesa kehta hai ?


That too for a Community which was in forefront in Creation of Pakistan and served Pakistan in every field.



What Notice did Bilawal Bhutto Zardari take of Ex PM Statement ? Nil

Probably He cannot given the Taboo they have made Ahmadi Muslims in Pakistan where hating them, abusing them, persecuting them has become a National Duty of Uneducated or Semi Educated people.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

This means the issue is only with Pakistani Sunni Muslims who are quick to judge who is Muslim and who is not.

If Arabs do not have problem with Ahmadis, why would Pakistani Muslims have? Probably trying to be more Muslim than Arabs?

No this isn't the thing.



The thing is I have a Cat at home. It Looks like a Cat, it acts like a Cat, it walks like a Cat, it runs like a Cat, it jumps like a Cat. But if you want to say that No it is not a Cat it is a Dog than its your Opinion and to me it doesn't matter but what i have is a Cat.


Same is the Case with Ahmadi Muslims. They dress like Muslims, they use Islamic terms in their talk, they Pray 5 times a day like Muslims sometimes 6 times again like Muslims, they pray on a praying mat facing Qaaba, they recite quran, they read same ahadees books, there day to day life is lived and practiced like a Muslim. They have Muslim names. There way of doing Hajj and Umrah is identical to Muslims.


So if want to say that No You are not a Muslim than you can say or believe it but you cannot Impose it on Us.


You can Call me a Daddoo (Frog) but you cannot say that Now I paint my body green, speak like a Frog and Jump like a Frog and Leave my home and start living with Daddoos because for you I am not a Man but a Daddoo.



So when an Ahmadi Muslim on an Indian, American, Canadian, Australian, British etc etc Passport goes for Hajj and Umrah how will you distinguish him her from other Muslims ? For example two girls Ayesha Ahmad (one Ahmadi muslim) (one from any other 72 Sects) , Furqan Ahmed (one ahmadi muslim) other from any other of 72 sects cannot be differentiated.


And the Passport does not mentiom religion it only mentions Name and Nationality. Even if it did than in those countries we are considered Muslim so it would be written Muslim.


So SA cannot stop us.



And being Muslim it is mamdatory to do Hajj if you can Afford to do it. If you have Istetaat ie Physical and Financial ability. So it is our duty so we do it as our duty. So we cannot stop doing it at others wishes unless we are rejected visa.



If SA asks countries to tell them about Sects of Muslims or specifically Ahmadi Muslims than those countries would not allow it and they will consider it as a Human Right Violation so SA cannot afford to do it.

 

[troodon]

^
TalentSpotter, if you tell that you are an Ahmadi in Saudi Arabia, will the Saudi Government or Religious scholars ban you from doing Haj there?

 

[Mughal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfO231KOJ9A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LipBuJflIQs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37kV3XWa_R8

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Definition of Secularism as Understood by Quaid e Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah


https://youtu.be/siS5in_5xBw

 

[Mughal]

It is very important for people to realise that division between mankind was not caused by people who were truly guided by guidance of God but by people who have no idea what guidance of God is or what it is about regardless what they themselves claim to be eg hindu, parsee, jew, christian, muslim etc etc. God only and only guided people to live by way of life he advised for them but people had invented their own ways of living their lives in this world which caused them problems.

People were divided long before revelation of the quran and they are still divided on same basis. The quran was given to mankind in this era to help them live as one united proper human community based upon it so that people could overcome their divisions by educating each other as to how to live in this world properly.

However a question arises as to why people became divided? It is because God created mankind for his purpose so people had to be created not knowing anything but normally capable of learning and doing things by themselves till they reached a level of knowledge whereat they could be helped with guidance from God. This is why people were given a limited freewill and brains and senses as well as bodies to go with it along with things in the real word to play with to learn sense of making proper sense of things on their own. Once people become reasonably sensible only then guidance of God becomes their guide but only if they reach for it and try their best to make proper sense of it.

Why do people fight with each other? It is because people have brains and senses and bodies so they have needs and those needs need to be fulfilled. However people do not know how to fulfil their needs and wants in a way that ensures their well being because they are born ignorant and it takes them ages to learn things through life experiences therefore they need help a bit of and that is why have been given guidance from their creator. To learn guidance properly and to adopt it faithfully also takes time, so meanwhile things continue between people as they see fit. However till people learn sense of making proper sense of things and guidance of God and adopt guidance of God faithfully after its proper understanding things will remain as people themselves decide for themselves.

Although all people are related to each other by blood yet they need to become one ideologically as well and that where comes in the quran to help them do so if they so decide for themselves. All because people are born not knowing anything and so they are born narrow minded till their life experiences help them fill their minds with information and knowledge. Since all people are at various stages of learning or levels of knowledge with respect to each other hence people have different opinions about the very same things.

So one should be able to see why people need their own separate places to live therefore the need for muslims to have their own place. However once people are educated and trained enough to be able to live together as one people all barriers will come down. So people should try and help each other with education and training so that that day comes about sooner rather than later. It is because the sooner we bring about that day it will save a lot of people from needless painful suffering.

Pakistan was created to act as a laboratory or testing place for deen of islam and people who claim to be muslims so once people who claim to be muslims understand the quran properly and adopt it faithfully things will start looking great but till then things will continue as they have been. To understand vision of Jinnah or Iqbal people need to know a lot of information as well as need to think a lot to put that information together properly so that it makes perfect sense.

This is only to help people realise proper context of the speeches of Jinnah or iqbal.

 

[Mughal]

islam deen hai mazhab nahin hai
http://archive.org/details/Al-Quran_123

 

[Prince_]

^
TalentSpotter, if you tell that you are an Ahmadi in Saudi Arabia, will the Saudi Government or Religious scholars ban you from doing Haj there?

TSPK bhai, I would also like know the answer of this question. If u don't mind, would u pls answer it. Thanks.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

TSPK bhai, I would also like know the answer of this question. If u don't mind, would u pls answer it. Thanks.

The answer is simple...

On paksitani passport you have a religion section. The ahmedis are not considered muslim and thus, they have to put down non-muslim/ahmedi (i presume) in that section. The Saudis can then see that this person is not muslim and will not permit them to goto Makkah or Medina, let alone Haj/Umra.

The Ahmedis are a 19th century punjabi relic of the British empire. Therefore the most opposition to Ahmedis would naturally come from Pakistanis.

Most muslims around the world probably do not know who they are or what their entire belief set is. Once they do, its almost universally accepted by both Sunni and Shias that Ahmedi beliefs take them out of the fold of islam.

Whether a state should tell you who can or cannot be muslim..... that is another matter altogether.

 

[Third_Umpire]

The answer is simple...

On paksitani passport you have a religion section. The ahmedis are not considered muslim and thus, they have to put down non-muslim/ahmedi (i presume) in that section. The Saudis can then see that this person is not muslim and will not permit them to goto Makkah or Medina, let alone Haj/Umra.

The Ahmedis are a 19th century punjabi relic of the British empire. Therefore the most opposition to Ahmedis would naturally come from Pakistanis.

Most muslims around the world probably do not know who they are or what their entire belief set is. Once they do, its almost universally accepted by both Sunni and Shias that Ahmedi beliefs take them out of the fold of islam.

Whether a state should tell you who can or cannot be muslim..... that is another matter altogether.

A state should not. Sunnis, Shias whoever else are free to believe their fantasy is right and someone else's is wrong. But the fact that the Pakistani state is an active participant in this discussion is hugely troubling.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

So I was browsing and I found a very interesting link I am sharing it as it is face book and I cant embedd it but here is the link below.

https://www.facebook.com/page.boldo/videos/727722344033394/

Also found same thing being discussed here

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/yKeBYusrlVo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

So now my discussion pointed to both of these videos are.

1) As per words of Qaid E Azam why any Pakistan is considered minority in Pakistan ? why are we all not the same why do we even need a minority in Pakistan ?

2) When Qaid clearly states that state got nothing to do with religion and it is decision of every person...Why state of Pakistan interfere in religion ?

3) As I came to know that this famous speech was removed from library of Radio Pakistan and complete audio is not yet to be found...Isnt it obvious that Pakistan is completely hijacked and its constitution needs to be corrects as per image of Qaid e Azam ?

Link of missing speech controversy.
http://tribune.com.pk/story/602789/...dings-of-jinnahs-aug-11-speech-still-missing/

I would love to have some non hypocritical opinions on this.

By definition, minorities exists everywhere. Be it ethnic or religious. Why dont you first make it clear which type of minority you are referring to. You would be hard pressed to find an ethnic and religious homogeneous nation (which is not a tiny pacific island).

"Missing Speech", is in the public domain and available on youtube as the article itself points out. Nonetheless, everyone is aware of what Jinnah said and despite that most Pakistanis disagree with him on that, so on that point, no its not hijacked.

How about giving us your own non-hypocritical opinions. Ahmedis are not the only minority....There are Christians, hindus etc... I have the feeling that you are only rooting for the ahmedis here, if they hadn't been labelled non muslims, this would not be an issue for you and you would not be a "minority" but part of the majority and it is this part that you are resentful of.

In a democratic and secular set-up where does your caliph fit in?

 

[big_gamer007]

I don't understand for a normal person anywhere in the rest of the world an Ahmadi is a Muslim.. We won't be able to differentiate between them, heck i didn't even know Ahmadi is a sect of Islam till I read it here on PP a month or so back.. So why so much hue and cry I don't understand and the violence against them
Is disgusting..

 

[gattaca]

I don't understand for a normal person anywhere in the rest of the world an Ahmadi is a Muslim.. We won't be able to differentiate between them, heck i didn't even know Ahmadi is a sect of Islam till I read it here on PP a month or so back.. So why so much hue and cry I don't understand and the violence against them
Is disgusting..

Because Ahmedis were well educated and held higher positions in the government. The majority didn't like minority holding power.

 

[troodon]

The answer is simple...

On paksitani passport you have a religion section. The ahmedis are not considered muslim and thus, they have to put down non-muslim/ahmedi (i presume) in that section. The Saudis can then see that this person is not muslim and will not permit them to goto Makkah or Medina, let alone Haj/Umra.

The Ahmedis are a 19th century punjabi relic of the British empire. Therefore the most opposition to Ahmedis would naturally come from Pakistanis.

Most muslims around the world probably do not know who they are or what their entire belief set is. Once they do, its almost universally accepted by both Sunni and Shias that Ahmedi beliefs take them out of the fold of islam.

Whether a state should tell you who can or cannot be muslim..... that is another matter altogether.

Thanks. This means Saudis also do not consider Ahmadis as Muslims.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Intensionally this thread is made into an Anti Ahmadi thread.


We don't report such posts as we are tolerant Muslims.


Such people get exposed in Apostasty, Stonning to Death, Blasphemy, Jehaad threads when they are shown the mirror through Quran and Hadees than they do Aaein Baayein Shaaein. Than they join hands and jawaab na bun paaey tou Majority is Authority they In tandem report tp Control Room. Control Room gets multiple Bells and than the threads are deleted which is there untimate Goal.


Because they want Islam to have a Barbaric Cruel Picture which it is not. It is a beautiful Peaceful Religion which is Pro Life and Pro Human Rights.

 

[troodon]

Intensionally this thread is made into an Anti Ahmadi thread.


We don't report such posts as we are tolerant Muslims.


Such people get exposed in Apostasty, Stonning to Death, Blasphemy, Jehaad threads when they are shown the mirror through Quran and Hadees than they do Aaein Baayein Shaaein. Than they join hands and jawaab na bun paaey tou Majority is Authority they In tandem report tp Control Room. Control Room gets multiple Bells and than the threads are deleted which is there untimate Goal.


Because they want Islam to have a Barbaric Cruel Picture which it is not. It is a beautiful Peaceful Religion which is Pro Life and Pro Human Rights.

You believe Ahmadis are Muslims by grouping yourself with Sunnis and Shias. But the reciprocation seems to be missing from the other groups.

You are getting a lot of Air High fives.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I don't understand for a normal person anywhere in the rest of the world an Ahmadi is a Muslim.. We won't be able to differentiate between them, heck i didn't even know Ahmadi is a sect of Islam till I read it here on PP a month or so back.. So why so much hue and cry I don't understand and the violence against them
Is disgusting..

Why Hue and Cry ?

Because they have spread into 209 countries now winning hearts with there character and with theological evidences.


Because there fate has not been like the Fate of 29 Dajjali Fake Prophets and their followers who vanished and got extinct in no time.


Because they are growing every single day despite their opponents below the belt attacks.



Because they are Appreciated as the Single Largest Community Worlwide who have minimum crime rate in the world and are never into Bad News for their Bad Deeds. Who are united behind one man and are termed as the Most Peaceful Muslim Community in the World.




They thought that these people are fastly spreading without any violence. People are embracing them joining them so what about my identity ? They thought lets declare them Non Muslim after 85 years of their inception when they have reached in millions starting from 1 Man. They thought this way their own members will say Oh We are not Muslims ? We did not know it so we we leave ahmadiat and become Sunni Shia or other Sects which we were previously and Ahmadiyyat will end this way and other sects people won't join them as they ll say well we are muslims so why become non muslims but all their plans failed. Ahmadiyyat's growth could not be stopped so they cannot digest it.


Since 127 years they are saying that You are Agents of Israel and Britishers and they are behind you and never ever they could substantiate it. They try to sell this theory to others so that they Hate Us and so that easily voilence can be incited against Us.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

You believe Ahmadis are Muslims by grouping yourself with Sunnis and Shias. But the reciprocation seems to be missing from the other groups.

You are getting a lot of Air High fives.

We do not go against Quranic definitions and Sayings of Prophet Muhammad Pbuh which i have told you previously.


Even if they don't consider us Muslims it is there Choice but we consider them Muslims because Holy Quran defines a Muslim and Prophet Muhammad Pbuh defines a Muslim and they do not fall short of those definitions of Islam so we do not lie and we do not hold any personal grudge against them.


For 1500 years there were came around 30 False Prophets in Islam who vanished within no time and thete followers became extinct. Today None muslim exists who says or claims to be there follower. Yet the definition of Muslim remained same. The same definition given by Holy Quran and by the sayings of Prophet Pbuh nobody dared to change those definitions until 1974.


When they changed definition of Islam and Muslim just to rule out Ahmadis from Islam. So that 72 sects remain in Islam while 73rd gets an exit.


While It is a Islamic Principle that Only God will judge claim of a person or Community whether He is Muslim or not True Muslim or not. No Human Being has the Authority to Define somebody's religion.



I as Ahmadi Muslim can say that Lord Krishna for me was a True Prophet of God while other muslims will say this is not certain so cannot be said so they want to pool him amongst either imposter Prophets or somebody whose status is unknown. And majority of them say Hindus are disbelievers so they will go to hell. We Ahmadi Muslims do not say that and we prove it from Quran and Sayings of Prophet Pbuh. Plus this is not humans duty. Muslims wont be gate keepers of Paradise or Hell to decide who will go where it will be Gods decision. On the other hand Hindus believe that Krishna was incarnation of God. Ok fine. Things stop here respectfully. But i am nobody to say that since you dont agree with me so you are not a Hindu. Similarly A Brahmin Hindu can disagree with a Shudras Hindu or others on religious matters claims or beliefs, claims of Holy figures who may be holy for some but not for others but they cannot pass a ruling and say that No You are not a Hindu and you cannot even make a New Mandar and pray seperately. And we will make sure that on your passport if religion column is there than you are mentioned not Hindu and you cannot go to sacred hindu places.


Can you imagine the first thing anybody who becomes Muslim is recitation of Kalima which is

" La Ilaha ilallah Muhammad ur Rasool Allah "

It has word to word this meaning that Allah is One and Muhammad Pbuh is his Messenger


Thats it.



After 1974, three of my uncles went to Jail for 3 years. What was their Crime ? Recitation of this Kalima.


Anti Ahmadiyya laws were made by State where if amybody Presents evidence that He saw an Ahmadi praying Salaat Namaz or reciting Quran or saying Assalamoalaikum MashaAllah JazaakAllah Alhamdoulillah or reciting Kalima than he will be punishable with 3 years in prison because they say these are islamic practices and Ahmadis cannot practice it because they are not muslim.

 

[WebGuru]

[MENTION=38994]dhump[/MENTION] I am sorry i wasn't interested in derailing the thread but i think it's already derailed and i am getting tired of this same old debate in every other thread (not talking about your question). So i thought to add something as well. Sorry for not being on topic. You can ignore this post because this is for those who are discussing same topic again and again in different threads.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Muhammad is not the father of any of your males. He is the Messenger of God and the last Prophet. God has the knowledge of all things.

Many people claimed to be the Mahdi & the promised Messiah because they can't claim to be Messenger of God that is against the teachings of Islam and Quran so they know that will make their case weak in front of the followers thats why they use this trick of being Mehi / Messiah.

The last claimant i think is Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi. His follower thinks he is the promised Messiah. His son and his followers are running this Messiah Foundation International in USA. btw he was from rawalpindi dhok gohar shah. Some of his followers came with banners to support Imran during dherna days that created a huge mess for PTI and IIRC he had to release a statement.

And for the followers of Messiah Claimant from Qadian here is an eye opening video of someone who is probably in his 70s now and served the jamaat for decades so spend some minutes and watch it. (title of the video is misleading by the uploader)

<iframe frameborder="0" width="480" height="270" src="//www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x1wlecq" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

What is the relevence of Less than 10 people in a Community of Millions ?


Does Salman Rushdee also represent Islam ?


Were Musaylima, Aswad Ansi who ambassadors of Islam as Ex Muslims ?

 

[WebGuru]

Now on topic:

My POV that i shared above is different but keep in mind that doesn't means i am a supporter of violence against anyone. Ahmedis / Minorities, Non muslims all should be given equal status in the country just like Quaid wanted because we are all Pakistanis and there shouldn't be any hidden agendas against anyone.

One day we will get back our real Pakistan that is hijacked by these Mullahs and by those who were against partition but now are happily sitting in National Assembly and are involved in all type corruption while giving us lecture on Islam.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Mujaddad Alif Saani.

Mujaddid of the 2nd millenium.
Died in 1624. Religion Islam. Hanafi Jurist.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Now dhump back to topic. Mullah is very strong in Pakistan and every leader bows infront of them and fears them.


Even Imran Khan who retracted his statement on Atif Mian. Because of Fear and did sorry sorry i did not know.

 

[WebGuru]

Thats why the best trick is to claim that you are the promised Mehdi / Messiah instead of making the case weak by claiming to be a Prophet.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Somebody needed to hold the Hand of Ibn e Arabi Rehmatullah Aleh the renowned Islamic Saint, Scholar of the Ahl e Sunnat School of thought of the Golden Islamic Age of 6th century and tell him Sir what kind of Islamic Scholar you are ? You don't even know what " Khaatam " means ? Open Quran He Pbuh is called Khaatam un Nabee-een and what you are saying ?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Holy figures are not magicians or trick sellers. Neither are they representatives of worldly people who have to dance on the Dugdugee of their Worldly Masters.

They only say and claim what Allah tells them and ask them to tell the world. They don't claim on the wishes of their opponents and opposers.


Take the example of Holy Prophet Pbuh. When he arrived everybody was happy with him. Everybody used to say great things about him. Especially his honesty and piety.

But the Moment He claimed to be a Prophet they drew eartg short on him. They said say whatever but don't claim prophethood because jews said Mashiash will come in End so they rejected Jesus and Mohammad Pbuh both.

Christians said Jesus is the Last Prophet so he will comeback from Heaven so He is Last.

Hindus Believe Krishna / King of Aryas will come in last as Rishi. So for those for whom word to word prophecicies in literal sense were not fulfilled in the Personality of Mohammad Pbuh so they rejected him.


But my beloved Mohammad Pbuh did not put up a claim which others like and He even Had to migrate to Madeena to save his Life.

Would have been very easyand feasible to retract his claim but Holy Prophets do not backtrack and they stick to what Allah says no matter hell falls on them.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Holy figures are not magicians or trick sellers. Neither are they representatives of worldly people who have to dance on the Dugdugee of their Worldly Masters.

They only say and claim what Allah tells them and ask them to tell the world. They don't claim on the wishes of their opponents and opposers.


Take the example of Holy Prophet Pbuh. When he arrived everybody was happy with him. Everybody used to say great things about him. Especially his honesty and piety.

But the Moment He claimed to be a Prophet they drew eartg short on him. They said say whatever but don't claim prophethood because jews said Mashiash will come in End so they rejected Jesus and Mohammad Pbuh both.

Christians said Jesus is the Last Prophet so he will comeback from Heaven so He is Last.

Hindus Believe Krishna / King of Aryas will come in last as Rishi. So for those for whom word to word prophecicies in literal sense were not fulfilled in the Personality of Mohammad Pbuh so they rejected him.


But my beloved Mohammad Pbuh did not put up a claim which others like and He even Had to migrate to Madeena to save his Life.

Would have been very easyand feasible to retract his claim but Holy Prophets do not backtrack and they stick to what Allah says no matter hell falls on them.

Reading that it gives the impression that your holy man has spoken directly with God?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Thanks. This means Saudis also do not consider Ahmadis as Muslims.

Neither do Iranians.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Reading that it gives the impression that your holy man has spoken directly with God?

The Last Migrant Ever on Earth Hazrat Abbass RA.


Why do you call Syrian Migrants as Migrants ?


He Pbuh called Hazrat Abbass RA Khaatam ul Mohajireen.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

The Last Migrant Ever on Earth Hazrat Abbass RA.


Why do you call Syrian Migrants as Migrants ?


He Pbuh called Hazrat Abbass RA Khaatam ul Mohajireen.

With respect, you are not making any sense.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

When He Pbuh called Hazrat Ali R.A as Khaatam ul Aoliya than how come

Khwaja Farid GanjBakhsh Shakkar, Shah Wali ullah Mohaddis e Dehalwee and few others are considered as Wali's ? ?


If Khaatam means Absolute Last ?



Isn't it a blasphemy to call Muslims who came from India as Migrants as He Pbuh said Hazrat Abbass is Khaatam ul Mohajireen. The Last Migrant.


Verily I am the Last of the Prophets and My Mosque is the Last of the Mosques (Sahi Muslim)

Here word Khaatim is not used by Prophet Muhammad Pbuh instead he usedword Aakhir which is used in Arabic aswell as Urdu.

If the Holy Prophet meant that No Prophet would come after him, then he also means that No Mosque would be built after him as He called his Mosque ie Masjid e Nabwi as the Last Mosque. Yet why we see thousands of Mosques being built after him pbuh ?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

If Hazur Pbuh is absolute Last Prophet than


Who will be the last Prophet to Walk on Earth ? Hazrat Eesa As who will come from heaven ?


So who will walk last on Plannet Earth ? Hazrat Eesa As ? Than Last will be Eesa As or Mohammad Pbuh ? ?


If in 2025 Hazrat Eesa As lands from Parashoot on Earth and Christians say See we told u He is Last He will come in Last than the Muslims will say No Mohammad Pbuh was Absolute Last.

Christians will say Mohammad Pbuh walked on Earth Alive in 630 AD while this Man is walking on Earth on 2025 so which is Last ?


If the door of Nabooat is bund sealed closed like if i seal a pencil Bag and inside environment se Earth outside is Space. Than if from Space a pencil has to enter the pencil bag who will it go in the pencil bag which is sealed closed ? ?


The Darwaza on Nabooat if is Closed than is closed for All.


If Jesus will enter than He will break the Seal.



Quran calls Jesus As a Prophet so He cannot be considered as an Ordinary Ummati. Once a Prophet always a Prophet. What Sin did Jesus As did that Allah will strip him off from Prophethood and demote him into an ordinary human ?

And whem Quran will say He is a Prophet than why would i say No Jesus Pbuh you are not a Prophet ?


What is the role of Prophet of Bani Israel amongst Ummat e Mohammadi Pbuh when Quran clearly says that Allah made Jesus Christ Pbuh a Prophet for the Nation of Bani Israel.


Jesus will go to Bani Israel and He will say that I am a Prophet and when he will come to Pakistan India than He will say I am not a Prophet ? ?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

You Should Send Your Waliullah Angel AK Sheikh's videos to these People and ask them that You made a Mistake come to Us and leave Ahmadiyyat they are not Muslims :


https://youtu.be/trmUX5ED5ZQ

 

[Eagle_Eye]

When He Pbuh called Hazrat Ali R.A as Khaatam ul Aoliya than how come

Khwaja Farid GanjBakhsh Shakkar, Shah Wali ullah Mohaddis e Dehalwee and few others are considered as Wali's ? ?

If Khaatam means Absolute Last ?



Isn't it a blasphemy to call Muslims who came from India as Migrants as He Pbuh said Hazrat Abbass is Khaatam ul Mohajireen. The Last Migrant.


Verily I am the Last of the Prophets and My Mosque is the Last of the Mosques (Sahi Muslim)

Here word Khaatim is not used by Prophet Muhammad Pbuh instead he usedword Aakhir which is used in Arabic aswell as Urdu.

If the Holy Prophet meant that No Prophet would come after him, then he also means that No Mosque would be built after him as He called his Mosque ie Masjid e Nabwi as the Last Mosque. Yet why we see thousands of Mosques being built after him pbuh ?

Quick Google reveals that the last mosque is a classic ahmedi argument.... Anyone can google and find what the actual FULL Hadith in its proper context says....


It still doesn't answer my question whether your holy man has directly spoken to God?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Quick Google reveals that the last mosque is a classic ahmedi argument.... Anyone can google and find what the actual FULL Hadith in its proper context says....


It still doesn't answer my question whether your holy man has directly spoken to God?

My Intension is not to Impose my beliefs on you or to forcefuly convert you.

You have your own faith and i have no issue with you furthermore if you only recite Kalima and claim that you are a muslim that you are a Muslim for me.

But Stop deciding my faith and stop defining Me. Its my life and our life fo which we are responsible and we can give our religious views like all humam beings have the human right to say what they their beliefs are. If you dont like dont agree just Ignore.


But without even knowing what our Khilafatt stands you jumped into Minority Pakistan thread and tried to be Ahmadiyya Muslim Representative Worlwide and a Najoomi and future teller of What our Khilafatt stands for


You wrote Isis , TTP and Bokoharaam ideology for which they are fighting struggling in a Barbaric inhumane way of doing Qabza over Worldly Governments.


If we had the same agenda of getting Worldly Governments we would have been doing the same things as they are doing but our actions speak for ourself.


If you are a Doctor or Engineer or a noble student or a noble professional living a Peaceful Life and are a good human being which i am sure you will be than I have no right to say that tommorow you will Burst and kill innocent people. If I say that than i will be an intellectually dishonest person with Malafide intentions. Similarly when you even don't know ABC about my community and its Agenda except for ABC failex exposex websites whose Manjan doesn't sell than you should not say what we will do in Pakistan. We have no such aims and objectives and our history tells how much blood we have spilled in last 127 years and who we are.


Just Leave Us Alone and Do not define Us or try to define Us.


World has Open Eyes and they can see and judge themselves by Actions in their Societies and Communities that who is who


Now forget that it is a Pakistani or Indian Phenomenon. It is out your hand and out of your sight. You cannot control it cannot reduce it. You have to take takkar with Allah SWT and pray every midnight and cry your Soul that O Allah what you did with 29 Imposter Prophets and there followers where within No Point you made them Extinct and Nishaan e Ibrat for all why that did not happen with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad AS and his followers despite us declaring them non muslim , burning their homes , properties, killing them taking their lives doing worst persecution why they did not vanish ? Why 1 rule for 29 imposters and another for this 1 if he was imposter. Than Allah will Answer you. Have faith in Allah World History tells you that Allah as per his Promises of Quran has destroyed Each and Every Imposter Prophet and has made their Followers Nishaan e Ibrat. So have faith. Allah is JUST.


Meanwhile Leave Us Alone.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

A state should not. Sunnis, Shias whoever else are free to believe their fantasy is right and someone else's is wrong. But the fact that the Pakistani state is an active participant in this discussion is hugely troubling.

Where is the Pakistani state actively participating in this thread?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

[MENTION=38994]dhump[/MENTION] I am sorry i wasn't interested in derailing the thread but i think it's already derailed and i am getting tired of this same old debate in every other thread (not talking about your question). So i thought to add something as well. Sorry for not being on topic. You can ignore this post because this is for those who are discussing same topic again and again in different threads.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Muhammad is not the father of any of your males. He is the Messenger of God and the last Prophet. God has the knowledge of all things.

Many people claimed to be the Mahdi & the promised Messiah because they can't claim to be Messenger of God that is against the teachings of Islam and Quran so they know that will make their case weak in front of the followers thats why they use this trick of being Mehi / Messiah.

The last claimant i think is Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi. His follower thinks he is the promised Messiah. His son and his followers are running this Messiah Foundation International in USA. btw he was from rawalpindi dhok gohar shah. Some of his followers came with banners to support Imran during dherna days that created a huge mess for PTI and IIRC he had to release a statement.

And for the followers of Messiah Claimant from Qadian here is an eye opening video of someone who is probably in his 70s now and served the jamaat for decades so spend some minutes and watch it. (title of the video is misleading by the uploader)

<iframe frameborder="0" width="480" height="270" src="//www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x1wlecq" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ak Sheikh Should reach out to these people and Convert them Back to Real Constitutional Islam of any of the 72 sects so that than they enter Paradise as a Sunni Muslim Shia Muslim or else :


https://youtu.be/NGbPE8KpiEY


https://youtu.be/ConMcTn8-Zs


https://youtu.be/d5ePsbE6O5s


https://youtu.be/PpxkJtQ22_Q


https://youtu.be/POpCsA_u21Y

 

[dhump]

By definition, minorities exists everywhere. Be it ethnic or religious. Why dont you first make it clear which type of minority you are referring to. You would be hard pressed to find an ethnic and religious homogeneous nation (which is not a tiny pacific island).

"Missing Speech", is in the public domain and available on youtube as the article itself points out. Nonetheless, everyone is aware of what Jinnah said and despite that most Pakistanis disagree with him on that, so on that point, no its not hijacked.

How about giving us your own non-hypocritical opinions. Ahmedis are not the only minority....There are Christians, hindus etc... I have the feeling that you are only rooting for the ahmedis here, if they hadn't been labelled non muslims, this would not be an issue for you and you would not be a "minority" but part of the majority and it is this part that you are resentful of.

In a democratic and secular set-up where does your caliph fit in?

Let me answer you step by step..

By definition, minorities exists everywhere. Be it ethnic or religious. Why dont you first make it clear which type of minority you are referring to. You would be hard pressed to find an ethnic and religious homogeneous nation (which is not a tiny pacific island).

No minorities dont exist everywhere for e.g. in Germany there is no minority in between citizens so there is no minority citizen or majority citizen. I can understand Afghanis to be minority in Pakistan as they are immigrants same as I can say for Syrian or any other immigrants in Germany (who are not German nationals), but I dont see any minority in between nationals of country.

One common poster you see in German governament offices say "Whitemen,Black Men, Yellow Man ?? no just German"

"Missing Speech", is in the public domain and available on youtube as the article itself points out. Nonetheless, everyone is aware of what Jinnah said and despite that most Pakistanis disagree with him on that, so on that point, no its not hijacked.

If you have complete audio of speech I would love to listen to it please....feel free to share it here and wrong me.

Absolutely looking forward to it as I really want to hear it.

How about giving us your own non-hypocritical opinions. Ahmedis are not the only minority....There are Christians, hindus etc... I have the feeling that you are only rooting for the ahmedis here, if they hadn't been labelled non muslims, this would not be an issue for you and you would not be a "minority" but part of the majority and it is this part that you are resentful of.

Where in my post I mentioned Ahmadies ?? please guide me to it..

You have wrong feeling I am sorry I cannot control your feelings also you saying that I dont have issues with something matters nothing to me...It is your personal reflection that may be effecting your judgment so it is good for you to look yourself into mirror.

In a democratic and secular set-up where does your caliph fit in?

Nothing to do with the thread, but since your asked and answer is very simple he will fit as he is fitting in other democratic secular set ups all around the world. He does not tell us whom to vote for we all vote as per our liking. Religion got nothing to do with my choice of voting.

I hope this answer all your queries.


Now my question to you.

Since Qaid E Azam said state got nothing to do with religion why Pakistani state interfere with religion and why is it not allowed in Pakistan for members of any other religion to be President and Prime Ministers ??

 

[dhump]

[MENTION=133397]WebGuru[/MENTION] Bhai feel free to post as you like end of the day I am not the admin...I posted the op without word Ahmadies and you can read the thread and decide on its own.

I think with this amount of intolerance in mind of our countrymen we cannot have a decent intellectual discussion....We are more or less "Gods on Earth".

I really dont care how derailed thread it clearly the intellectual discussion I wanted to have is down the drain for all I care Admins can trash this thread.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Let me answer you step by step..



No minorities dont exist everywhere for e.g. in Germany there is no minority in between citizens so there is no minority citizen or majority citizen. I can understand Afghanis to be minority in Pakistan as they are immigrants same as I can say for Syrian or any other immigrants in Germany (who are not German nationals), but I dont see any minority in between nationals of country.

One common poster you see in German governament offices say "Whitemen,Black Men, Yellow Man ?? no just German"



If you have complete audio of speech I would love to listen to it please....feel free to share it here and wrong me.

Absolutely looking forward to it as I really want to hear it.



Where in my post I mentioned Ahmadies ?? please guide me to it..

You have wrong feeling I am sorry I cannot control your feelings also you saying that I dont have issues with something matters nothing to me...It is your personal reflection that may be effecting your judgment so it is good for you to look yourself into mirror.



Nothing to do with the thread, but since your asked and answer is very simple he will fit as he is fitting in other democratic secular set ups all around the world. He does not tell us whom to vote for we all vote as per our liking. Religion got nothing to do with my choice of voting.

I hope this answer all your queries.


Now my question to you.

Since Qaid E Azam said state got nothing to do with religion why Pakistani state interfere with religion and why is it not allowed in Pakistan for members of any other religion to be President and Prime Ministers ??

You are conflating two issues with regards to minorities, one is to do with your origin/beliefs/orientation and the second to do with treatment by the state as in your example, you are a German national (I think) of Pakistani origin but you feel that the state makes no distinction in law between you and an indigenous German. The thrust of Jinnah's speech is that you can be whoever you are, the state will not make a distinction between you as long as you are a pakistani, and I agree with that.

The answer to your question about why non muslims cannot be prime minister or president is straight forward and dare I say you know too. Because pakistan was made in the name of islam, they do not want non muslims leading the country in the same way as a non-jew being prime minister or president of Israel. We can disagree with it, but ultimately its down to the people, until and unless they changed their mind... it is what it is.

Back to my question about your caliph, you provided an answer which relates to you being a minority. Imagine a scenario where all muslims decided you know what... Ahmedism is the way to go and we had it all wrong and therefore Ahmedis become the vast majority( say 95% as is the case with Pakistan with muslim population I think). In this case, where does your caliph and khilafat fit in with what Jinnah said? Caliphs are traditionally leaders of the religion and government all rolled into one.