Why doesn't the white ball swing?

[Mr.T]

Why is the white ball at this cup not swinging. Have the changed the way its made? I know it is not Dukes, but kookaburra . But still it should swing.,

 

[ElRaja]

kook has smaller seam, swings for an over or two, but the seam gets flattened once its been hit a bit. unless you have perfect seam and pace it wont move much at all, and once the seam has been totally flattened it wont swing till you get reverse.

 

[Mr.T]

But they have been using Kookaburra for decades now and it did swing initially. Now nothing

 

[Captain caveman]

kook has smaller seam, swings for an over or two, but the seam gets flattened once its been hit a bit. unless you have perfect seam and pace it wont move much at all, and once the seam has been totally flattened it wont swing till you get reverse.

Correct for seam!.
Swing depends on weather conditions!
Will be hard to swing this kookaburra ball even in good swing condition because the makers apply less lacqer on the ball, so its less shiny, regardless of how much you shine it. ( could try eating some murray mints!)

 

[ElRaja]

Correct for seam!.
Swing depends on weather conditions!
Will be hard to swing this kookaburra ball even in good swing condition because the makers apply less lacqer on the ball, so its less shiny, regardless of how much you shine it. ( could try eating some murray mints!)

conventional swing is dependent on the seam. the seam acts as a rudder, the bigger the seam the more likely the ball is to swing.

 

[Chokli]

They most likely have tweaked it a little.

It's awful.

 

[Saj]

Swinging ok for Shaifuddin without any problems.

 

[Captain caveman]

conventional swing is dependent on the seam. the seam acts as a rudder, the bigger the seam the more likely the ball is to swing.

View attachment 92174

Swing is about friction i.e. aerodynamics.
One side of the ball has to be smooth and shiny and the other side rough. The rough side will have more resistance(friction) to the air than the shiny side. Hence the ball will go in a slightly curved trajectory.
Yes to direct the trajectory, you use the seam i.e. as a rudder as you said. But if the ball lacks lacquer, its hard to make one side significantly shinier(smoother) than the other.
Also you require warm but cloudy conditons for swing to occur as there is more water vapour in the air and hence the ball will face more resistance in the air and this will cause swing.
So weather conditions and the amount of lacquer on the ball are the most important requirements. If you have these, even with a flat seam you will still get swing, just more difficult to control.

 

[Captain caveman]

Swing is about friction i.e. aerodynamics.
One side of the ball has to be smooth and shiny and the other side rough. The rough side will have more resistance(friction) to the air than the shiny side. Hence the ball will go in a slightly curved trajectory.
Yes to direct the trajectory, you use the seam i.e. as a rudder as you said. But if the ball lacks lacquer, its hard to make one side significantly shinier(smoother) than the other.
Also you require warm but cloudy conditons for swing to occur as there is more water vapour in the air and hence the ball will face more resistance in the air and this will cause swing.
So weather conditions and the amount of lacquer on the ball are the most important requirements. If you have these, even with a flat seam you will still get swing, just more difficult to control.

CORRECTION:
The seam itself actually plays no part in swing bowling . You can have a completely flat seam which under the right conditions will still swing.
What the seam does is provides a boundary between the smooth and rough side of the ball. Hence pointing the seam in a certain direction, jus tmakes it easier to place the ball in the right direction for the trajectory you require.
So comparing the seam to a rudder is infact INCORRECT because the seam is not controlling the direction of the ball, the smooth/rough sides are. The seam just helps you to point the ball in the right trajectory.

 

[ElRaja]

Swing is about friction i.e. aerodynamics.
One side of the ball has to be smooth and shiny and the other side rough. The rough side will have more resistance(friction) to the air than the shiny side. Hence the ball will go in a slightly curved trajectory.

that is scientifically completely incorrect. the ball swings in the air due to pressure differences caused by turbulence in air flow, not friction. an angled seam is the only thing that will make a pristine ball swing.

Yes to direct the trajectory, you use the seam i.e. as a rudder as you said. But if the ball lacks lacquer, its hard to make one side significantly shinier(smoother) than the other.

again, this is incorrect, a brand new ball will swing straight from the first ball, when both sides of the ball are equally shiny.

So weather conditions and the amount of lacquer on the ball are the most important requirements. If you have these, even with a flat seam you will still get swing, just more difficult to control.

not true, i quote an article on "the science of swing bowling", you can google it for source cos im not sure if im allowed to post links

So the ideal ball for swing bowling is one with a prominent seam, one side smooth and the other rough. The fielding side should examine the new ball and choose the side with the shallower or less rough embossment and religiously polish that side throughout the match.

 

[Captain caveman]

that is scientifically completely incorrect. the ball swings in the air due to pressure differences caused by turbulence in air flow, not friction. an angled seam is the only thing that will make a pristine ball swing.



again, this is incorrect, a brand new ball will swing straight from the first ball, when both sides of the ball are equally shiny.



not true, i quote an article on "the science of swing bowling", you can google it for source cos im not sure if im allowed to post links

Turbulence is caused by friction!
The air flow will be faster on the smooth side as there is little resistance(friction) compared to the rough side, which will slow the air flow due to the resistance(friction). Hence, the ball will curve. This is basic aerodynamics!

A new ball may swing under the tight weather conditions because bowlers SHINE the ball, hence one side is more shiny and have less resistance(friction) than the other side. You will need a good lacquered ball for this and the kookaburra is not such a ball.

You need to understand turbulance as you call it, is air resistance due to friction.
The less friction(smoothness) gives less resistane.
The more friction(roughness) will lead to more resistance.

 

[adil79]

It does, if you swing it. Boult, Bumrah, Southee, Bhuvi Kumar, Starc, David Willie, Sam Curran, they all swung it in recent times. Pakistan used to do too, but lately, we have decided to not do it, as it somehow will make us succeed? I can't think of why we don't focus much on getting the wrist right & basics right.

When older, wahab & hassan are getting bit of tail. I am sure amir will too, if he bowls full. But we have decided to not bowl too many yorkers as it will probably make easy for our team? only about 10% yorkers were bowled against England at death & major deliveries were length ball.

I call bowling with scramble seam/cross seam, a plunkett trick, since he is the one who introduced it first. Waqat seemed pretty amused of that, when he was his coach at BPL. He revealed it in Sky Cricket pre-match summary in our bilateral series against england. I think, it's to make ball rough, for reverse swing later. As you can see that the ball, plunkett bowl with his overs, who later switched to woaked, was the focus of attention in 2nd odi.

 

[ElRaja]

Turbulence is caused by friction!
The air flow will be faster on the smooth side as there is little resistance(friction) compared to the rough side, which will slow the air flow due to the resistance(friction). Hence, the ball will curve. This is basic aerodynamics!

A new ball may swing under the tight weather conditions because bowlers SHINE the ball, hence one side is more shiny and have less resistance(friction) than the other side. You will need a good lacquered ball for this and the kookaburra is not such a ball.

You need to understand turbulance as you call it, is air resistance due to friction.
The less friction(smoothness) gives less resistane.
The more friction(roughness) will lead to more resistance.

lets just assume you are right and the ball swings because the rough side travels slower through the air due to friction, one would assume the ball would arc towards the slower side and the ball would swing towards the rough side.

however that would not be able to explain reverse swing where the ball swings towards the shinier (supposedly lower friction, faster side).

your understanding of why a cricket ball swings is incomplete, a cricket ball swings due to pressure asymmetries, and the positioning (and size) of the seam affects this, if you choose to disagree, fair enough.

 

[Mr.T]

I think and have been told by some county players that it’s due to the lacquer they put on the ball.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

The ball has swung and nipped around a bit more in the World Cup than it had in ODI bilaterals for quite some time. Just read what Trent Boult said about the kookaburra balls used for the World. He said they look glossier ( more lacquer perhaps?) than the normal white kookaburra and that's why they have done a bit more . He doesn't think conditions have much to do with it.
[MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

So that's why we aren't seeing the much expected slog -fests.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

The ball has swung and nipped around a bit more in the World Cup than it had in ODI bilaterals for quite some time. Just read what Trent Boult said about the kookaburra balls used for the World. He said they look glossier ( more lacquer perhaps?) than the normal white kookaburra and that's why they have done a bit more . He doesn't think conditions have much to do with it.

[MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

So that's why we aren't seeing the much expected slog -fests.

Tbh, I haven't really watched much to say anything. The games I have watched it hasn't really swung more than a few overs which isn't unusual depending on time of day and it's still early summer.

Seam movement is different. That's entirely dependent on how much moisture is retained after they make the pitch. You can always get some seam movement early in the morning before the sun comes out.

 

[adil79]

Tbh, I haven't really watched much to say anything. The games I have watched it hasn't really swung more than a few overs which isn't unusual depending on time of day and it's still early summer.

Seam movement is different. That's entirely dependent on how much moisture is retained after they make the pitch. You can always get some seam movement early in the morning before the sun comes out.

So, in theory, swing requires same conditions for seam movement? Can a new ball swing if it were hot and humid and the pitch is flat?

 

[Chief Destroyer]

So, in theory, swing requires same conditions for seam movement? Can a new ball swing if it were hot and humid and the pitch is flat?

It can swing depending on ball quality and a steady breeze blowing across the ground. Too much wind will cause too much turbulence and the ball will lose its shape.

 

[adil79]

It can swing depending on ball quality and a steady breeze blowing across the ground. Too much wind will cause too much turbulence and the ball will lose its shape.

What do you mean by ball quality? Aren't the ball standard? So, breeze is the only factor besides ball? It's not the pitch?

 

[Chief Destroyer]

What do you mean by ball quality? Aren't the ball standard? So, breeze is the only factor besides ball? It's not the pitch?

Swing is in the air, not from the pitch. Ball quality meaning prominent seam and lacquer(to maintain swing for long periods). The lower the seam the less disruption on the side the seam is facing. If the seam is dead, there is no disruption either side and air breaks away from both sides on similar pace which leaves the ball going straight.

 

[Arsalan Pro]

Swing and seam in this tournament has been more than what we are used to see in recent times.

 

[Fahdi]

It does swing, just not for very long.

 

[Captain caveman]

Swing is in the air, not from the pitch. Ball quality meaning prominent seam and lacquer(to maintain swing for long periods). The lower the seam the less disruption on the side the seam is facing. If the seam is dead, there is no disruption either side and air breaks away from both sides on similar pace which leaves the ball going straight.

More than seam, its the lacquer on the ball which will help the ball to swing. The shiny side has to be very shiny and the rough side really rough. The difference then allows swing if the weather is warm and overcast.

 

[Captain caveman]

lets just assume you are right and the ball swings because the rough side travels slower through the air due to friction, one would assume the ball would arc towards the slower side and the ball would swing towards the rough side.

however that would not be able to explain reverse swing where the ball swings towards the shinier (supposedly lower friction, faster side).

your understanding of why a cricket ball swings is incomplete, a cricket ball swings due to pressure asymmetries, and the positioning (and size) of the seam affects this, if you choose to disagree, fair enough.

What are pressure asymmetries? Is this not just friction? I am a qualified scientist, with a degree from a top uk university(though i do no longet work in science). I am giving you the scientific explanation and terms i.e. friction which causes air resistance. You guys are saying the same thing but not using scientific terms!

 

[Captain caveman]

What you guys need to understand is to see any noticeable swing there must be a LARGE difference in the amount of friction between the two sides of the ball.
This will ocur with a new ball with a good coating of lacquer(under the right weather conditions). You will be able to shine the ball more if it has a good lacquer coating. And let the other side get rough. Conventional swing!
Once the lacquer wears off, the difference in friction will not be so great as to see any noticeable swing.

Reverse swing:
As the ball gets older, the shiny side is not that shiny but you have roughed up the rough side of the ball even more!
So now there is again a large difference in friction between the two sides of the ball and hence you get swing again.

Conventional swing is dependent on the shiny side being very shiny , hence the shiny side faces nearest to batsman .

In reverse swing is about the rough side of the ball being really rough hence, its nearest the batsman.
See the above illustration(post 6) to understand further.

 

[gazza619]

Abbass would have swung the ball for you