Why is there always a rush to defend Virat Kohli? He did FAIL in a FINAL, swing/seam exposed him

[shaz619]

What I've noticed in the aftermath of Pakistan v India was folk take criticism towards Virat Kohli so PERSONALLY, I really don't understand the fascination.

How many times have we seen this man fail now when the ball begins to do a bit and cause some uncertainty outside his off stump? Even the pundits on sky repeatedly pointed out how bowlers should expose this weakness and after they pointed out how Amir made him look like the player he was when he first toured England for a Test series.

I think Virat is a fantastic batsman when the conditions are good for batting and he can handle a little bit of bounce as well, we've seen this in the past to but if you get the ball to move sideways he looks like a sitting duck.

There is OBVIOUSLY a clear weakness which he has not eradicated yet and to truly be considered amongst the greats he needs to deliver during challenging circumstances more often.

The biggest benefit though is that in the modern era of cricket the wicket and rules generally favour the batsman so more often then not he will come good but if you can get the ball to do a little bit early on you just know that you'll have your man back in the pavilion.

Please, don't take this personally but I will not take part in the circle jerk which blindly praises him all the time. Am not denying he is world class but don't insult the likes of Viv Richards or even Sachin.

The failure in some high profile crunch games has been attributed to choking and while that could be true because we can't possibly underestimate the pressure of a final never mind one involving Pakistan and India but we can't deny that he is not technically sound when a high calibre fast bowler swings or seams the ball.

 

[member250]

When is India next England tour for test series? He will have to prove there, only place where you still get that early swing in tests regularly.

 

[sshakir411]

He's India's Golden Boy...the one who took over from Tendulkar. You can trash the entire team but can't say anything about the Golden Boy. That's India for you. Fans still lose their * when Tendulkar is criticized...Virat only took over the reigns from him so he gets the same treatment.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Good thread Shaz. I do believe his technique has tightened up a bit compared to his earlier days when he just used to swing without caution but here he was simply outdone by the most skilled bowler in the world. However, it's not at the stage where he can rely it on instinctively, he has to be really switched on. Seeing the swing back from Amir the first ball he faced got him in two minds and the moment just got the better of him.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

Yes he struggles against swing/seam at the start of his innings. Its best to get Virat early in the innings otherwise he will pay you big time.

Tendulkar, Dravid are better players of swing/seam bowling. Imo Kohli Wouldn't have had the same impact if he was playing in their era due to better bowlers and better conditions of swing/seam that time.

 

[shaz619]

Good thread Shaz. I do believe his technique has tightened up a bit compared to his earlier days when he just used to swing without caution but here he was simply outdone by the most skilled bowler in the world. However, it's not at the stage where he can rely it on instinctively, he has to be really switched on. Seeing the swing back from Amir the first ball he faced got him in two minds and the moment just got the better of him.

There has definitely been an improvement but the problem still remains, he hasn't completely eradicated it. The uncertainty is still there, the best tend to stand up when up against incredibly skilled bowlers and find solutions to such problems and Amir stood tall in this instance; it's a BIG feather in his cap. Had Kohli survived just imagine the poetry which would be written, but given how Amir has been negatively received by some fans they've not given him as much credit as he deserves for the monumental feat in a 50 over ICC final against India.

Kohli has someway to go before he cements his status as a legendary batsman, but for now he is a world class bat in the modern era

 

[Chief Destroyer]

There has definitely been an improvement but the problem still remains, he hasn't completely eradicated it. The uncertainty is still there, the best tend to stand up when up against incredibly skilled bowlers and find solutions to such problems and Amir stood tall in this instance; it's a BIG feather in his cap. Had Kohli survived just imagine the poetry which would be written, but given how Amir has been negatively received by some fans they've not given him as much credit as he deserves for the monumental feat in a 50 over ICC final against India.

Kohli has someway to go before he cements his status as a legendary batsman, but for now he is a world class bat in the modern era

True. Amir has silenced all his fan boys. Some have disappeared, others trying to figure out ways to explain this, lmao.

 

[Hasan123]

Why is there always a need to critizce him for every failure?

 

[Arham_PakFan]

His technique has improved but it's not all there,will be challenged on the next tour of England

 

[shaz619]

True. Amir has silenced all his fan boys. Some have disappeared, others trying to figure out ways to explain this, lmao.

Dhoka! Dhoka! Dhoka! )

This is them:

 

[troodon]

In Game-1 which India won, Kohli is the greatest.

In finals after failing with the bat, Kohli is exposed.

I guess Kohli cannot fail. He has to always score a 100 to maintain his reputation.

 

[shaz619]

Why is there always a need to critizce him for every failure?

Why are his fans so sensitive?

He is deemed the best so scrutiny is expected, the man is advocated as the second coming of Viv it's only fitting that we expect him to delivery in challenging circumstances and when he does not then it needs to be discussed, after all that's what forums are for...discussion. On wickets with a bit of bounce he has been ok and on those which were roads but if you get the ball to do a bit sideways and he struggles.

That's my main issue with regards to how people rate him I don't even say choke etc like others, he hasn't completely eradicated his technical issues outside off stump and needs to stand up more when everything is at stake

 

[shaz619]

In Game-1 which India won, Kohli is the greatest.

In finals after failing with the bat, Kohli is exposed.

I guess Kohli cannot fail. He has to always score a 100 to maintain his reputation.

What was the extent of lateral movement at Edgbaston? zilch is the answer

 

[Mamoon]

Why is there always a need to critizce him for every failure?

When you are as good as he is, every failure becomes a weakness. Besides, every batsman has strong and weak-zones. The so-called GOAT batsman Bradman had his career average halved when bowlers bowled at his body; Lara, arguably the best player of spin in the last 20 years, struggled on Indian turners.

Kohli is an ODI ATG and second only to Sir Viv at this point, and he is only entering his peak years now.

 

[proud_pakistani]

All batsmen in the world struggle against some form of movement. We can only measure Kohli on the pitches he plays and on the flat pitches he outplays most batsmen in the world. Also on seaming/swinging surfaces he does a lot of the times weather the initial storm and goes on to play a big innings.

I do however strongly believe in the era we live in there is no batsman who I can say convincingly can deal with the swinging new ball. Indian batsmen of the past like Sachin and Dravid were far superior in that regard. But well cricket has evolved and with BCCI controlling cricket they have made surfaces that suit their style of cricket which helps Virat and the other Indian batsmen. But again fact remains we can only compare him to his peers and generally he comes out on top. I will say one thing though guys like Kane Williamson and Joe Root are probably better at playing the swinging ball then him.

 

[shaz619]

When you are as good as he is, every failure becomes a weakness. Besides, every batsman has strong and weak-zones. The so-called GOAT batsman Bradman had his career average halved when bowlers bowled at his body; Lara, arguably the best player of spin in the last 20 years, struggled on Indian turners.

Kohli is an ODI ATG and second only to Sir Viv at this point, and he is only entering his peak years now.

You're his biggest sympathiser and amongst those who get sensitive when he is criticised. Outside the likes of Hashim Amla and ABDV we can criticise other crickers as well you know. Joe Root and Kohli do not get a pass.

He failed in the Final and guess what he was a victim of? LATERAL MOVEMENT! WOW! we didn't see that one coming, he's still the GREATEST chaser on flat pitches though whatever makes you happy lad.

 

[Watsupdoc]

He has an issue against the away swinger early on in his innings as he likes to feel the ball on the bat.

But if he gets set - swinging conditions or not - he would be very hard to get out.

 

[shaz619]

All batsmen in the world struggle against some form of movement. We can only measure Kohli on the pitches he plays and on the flat pitches he outplays most batsmen in the world. Also on seaming/swinging surfaces he does a lot of the times weather the initial storm and goes on to play a big innings.

I do however strongly believe in the era we live in there is no batsman who I can say convincingly can deal with the swinging new ball. Indian batsmen of the past like Sachin and Dravid were far superior in that regard. But well cricket has evolved and with BCCI controlling cricket they have made surfaces that suit their style of cricket which helps Virat and the other Indian batsmen. But again fact remains we can only compare him to his peers and generally he comes out on top. I will say one thing though guys like Kane Williamson and Joe Root are probably better at playing the swinging ball then him.

We can only measure Kohli on the pitches he plays and opposition he faces I totally agree with that but the instances where he is met with a challenge then he doesn't get a pass for failing and deserves to be scrutinised, do you think Indians find it ok for him to look like a sitting duck against Amirs lateral movement in a ICC 50 over final against Pakistan?

 

[WC-Passion]

In Game-1 which India won, Kohli is the greatest.

In finals after failing with the bat, Kohli is exposed.

I guess Kohli cannot fail. He has to always score a 100 to maintain his reputation.

This is a very ignorant way to look at things. Two games with completely different pitches with different scenarios. In the final, there was lateral movement early on and Kohli struggled to decide how he was going to play and basically got out twice to Amir who was able to swing the ball. This post would only make sense if it was swinging in the first game.

Honestly I think it's unfair on Sachin and Viv for people to say Kohli is clearly better just because he can do it 9.9/10 in the modern day with flat pitches and a massive lack of lateral movement.

 

[troodon]

What was the extent of lateral movement at Edgbaston? zilch is the answer

In the finals also, there wasn't much after the initial 5 overs. Amir bowled beautifully.

Kohli nicked the previous delivery which was going across him. So to counter that, he moved to his off and tried to flick it and got the backside of the bat. It happens.

It wasn't the swing that got Kohli. It was an impulse decision to move to off and flick and he failed. On a different day, he will hit that for 4.

 

[zyrus]

When you are as good as he is, every failure becomes a weakness. Besides, every batsman has strong and weak-zones. The so-called GOAT batsman Bradman had his career average halved when bowlers bowled at his body; Lara, arguably the best player of spin in the last 20 years, struggled on Indian turners.

Kohli is an ODI ATG and second only to Sir Viv at this point, and he is only entering his peak years now.

You kidding? I'll rather put my bucks over in-form Inzi than him against quality attacks.

 

[shaz619]

In the finals also, there wasn't much after the initial 5 overs. Amir bowled beautifully.

Kohli nicked the previous delivery which was going across him. So to counter that, he moved to his off and tried to flick it and got the backside of the bat. It happens.

It wasn't the swing that got Kohli. It was an impulse decision to move to off and flick and he failed. On a different day, he will hit that for 4.

Are you trolling?

 

[troodon]

This is a very ignorant way to look at things. Two games with completely different pitches with different scenarios. In the final, there was lateral movement early on and Kohli struggled to decide how he was going to play and basically got out twice to Amir who was able to swing the ball. This post would only make sense if it was swinging in the first game.

Honestly I think it's unfair on Sachin and Viv for people to say Kohli is clearly better just because he can do it 9.9/10 in the modern day with flat pitches and a massive lack of lateral movement.

Sharma was done by the swing.

Kohli was only trying to not nick the ball that goes across him. So he moved to off a bit and tried to work the ball towards legside and got the outside part of the bat.

 

[troodon]

Are you trolling?

You calling me for trolling

 

[Hamza_]

There is no question mark that he is top batsman of his era.

His work ethic is amazing which shows off in his batting.

 

[ShahKhan007]

Another typical jingnostic thread by the op. Kohli has become an outstanding role model for youngster all around the world special subcontinent. Wish op could learn and thing or two about humility from Kohli.

If half our batsman had the same weakness as Kohli we would be unbeatable.

 

[shaz619]

You calling me for trolling

Alright then, in your world he's not technically inept. However, based on what you've said the lateral movement does cause error of judgement; which is still a major weakness. It's like saying well, Imran Farhat can still bat well so long you don't confuse him by playing on green tops or get him up against highly skilled bowlers who can swing or seam the ball [MENTION=138836]WC-Passion[/MENTION]

 

[proud_pakistani]

We can only measure Kohli on the pitches he plays and opposition he faces I totally agree with that but the instances where he is met with a challenge then he doesn't get a pass for failing and deserves to be scrutinised, do you think Indians find it ok for him to look like a sitting duck against Amirs lateral movement in a ICC 50 over final against Pakistan?

I mean there have been instances he has performed in swinging conditions as well. Asia Cup was a prime example of that. I have not really followed his batting against other countries as I only follow Pakistan. It is sad though we do not see much of lateral movement these days with pitches being catered to suit Indian batting and ICC's push for 4s and 6s to market the game. Last 2 Champions Trophies have been played in England and the swing has been minimal. People used to specifically talk about how to prepare their technique for places like England where the ball jags around. But it does not even move around there any more so most batsmen are just not prepared for it.

So the answer to whether Kohli is good enough against lateral movement or not to me is inconclusive at this point in time as the sample size is too small for me. Perhaps you can shed light on games other than the CT final where Kohli has struggled against lateral movement.

 

[Mamoon]

You kidding? I'll rather put my bucks over in-form Inzi than him against quality attacks.

You can put your bucks on anyone you like, but he surpassed Inzi long ago. He is only 28 but already a superior all-round batsman than anyone in Pakistan's history. He belongs in the league of Viv Richards, Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting, and none of our batsmen including Miandad belong in that list.

 

[shaz619]

Another typical jingnostic thread by the op. Kohli has become an outstanding role model for youngster all around the world special subcontinent. Wish op could learn and thing or two about humility from Kohli.

If half our batsman had the same weakness as Kohli we would be unbeatable.

Thanks for the insight, we now do not have any questions to pose Kohli with regards to his handling of lateral movement and performing in high pressure situations.

 

[Mamoon]

You're his biggest sympathiser and amongst those who get sensitive when he is criticised. Outside the likes of Hashim Amla and ABDV we can criticise other crickers as well you know. Joe Root and Kohli do not get a pass.

He failed in the Final and guess what he was a victim of? LATERAL MOVEMENT! WOW! we didn't see that one coming, he's still the GREATEST chaser on flat pitches though whatever makes you happy lad.

I don't need to sympathize with him and he is not even my favourite batsman. However, I don't have any reason to belittle his achievements just because he plays for India. We can slice and dice his career anyway we like, but the truth is that he has achieved more at 28 than 90% of the batsman have in their entire careers.

 

[troodon]

Alright then, in your world he's not technically inept. However, based on what you've said the lateral movement does cause error of judgement; which is still a major weakness. It's like saying well, Imran Farhat can still bat well so long you don't confuse him by playing on green tops or get him up against highly skilled bowlers who can swing or seam the ball [MENTION=138836]WC-Passion[/MENTION]

What I am trying to say is that Kohli was not done in by the swing.

Kohli has an issue with the ball going across him or leaving him. The previous ball which was slanted across him, he nicked it. To counter that he moved across to his off stump and covered it. But insted of playing straight, he tried to flick it for runs and got out.

So its not the swing that got him out. Rohit was done by the swing and movement.

 

[shaz619]

I mean there have been instances he has performed in swinging conditions as well. Asia Cup was a prime example of that. I have not really followed his batting against other countries as I only follow Pakistan. It is sad though we do not see much of lateral movement these days with pitches being catered to suit Indian batting and ICC's push for 4s and 6s to market the game. Last 2 Champions Trophies have been played in England and the swing has been minimal. People used to specifically talk about how to prepare their technique for places like England where the ball jags around. But it does not even move around there any more so most batsmen are just not prepared for it.

So the answer to whether Kohli is good enough against lateral movement or not to me is inconclusive at this point in time as the sample size is too small for me. Perhaps you can shed light on games other than the CT final where Kohli has struggled against lateral movement.

The England tour was a big enough sample, and more recently the CT final in itself was a big moment which we can't play down either. He did ok during a T20 game against Pak but like you say it was nothing inconclusive in terms of suggesting that he has eradicated his issues completely. It is a shame with regards to the changes in modern era but when faced with challenging situations you have to delivery in order to be considered a true great, not denying his prowess as a modern world class batsman on the current wickets

 

[Deewana]

Kohli is poor mans Khurram manzoor

 

[zyrus]

Can't believe that everyone's talking about lateral movement when Amir appeared to be bowling cross-seam for both Kohli and Dhawan. It was straight as an arrow. The only thing which varied was pace and bounce. Kohli couldn't even handle that, let alone handling swing. We all saw how Kohli was LBWed in Asia cup when swing was there. I don't know how can you think of him as an ATG.

Sharma was the only victim who got slightly in-swinging one.

 

[shaz619]

I don't need to sympathize with him and he is not even my favourite batsman. However, I don't have any reason to belittle his achievements just because he plays for India. We can slice and dice his career anyway we like, but the truth is that he has achieved more at 28 than 90% of the batsman have in their entire careers.

Look it's not all about India you know, am not even from Pakistan; am a fan of the sport of cricket and am afraid it is premature to put Virat in the same sentence as names such as Viv and Sachin. He has achieved a lot in this modern era but you need to stand up during those big moments when things are not that great more often then not, he has in the past but as we saw during the CT final recently he looked out of his depth against a highly skilled bowler in Mohammad Amir and those 2013 demons have not been exorcised completely at the moment

 

[Mamoon]

Look it's not all about India you know, am not even from Pakistan; am a fan of the sport of cricket and am afraid it is premature to put Virat in the same sentence as names such as Viv and Sachin. He has achieved a lot in this modern era but you need to stand up during those big moments when things are not that great more often then not, he has in the past but as we saw during the CT final recently he looked out of his depth against a highly skilled bowler in Mohammad Amir and those 2013 demons have not been exorcised completely at the moment

He has stood for his team plenty of times. More so than the other so-called ATGs of this era and PP favourites. A couple of failures do not negate everything that he has done. Comfortably the most clutch batsman of this era in spite of the 2015 World Cup and the final on Sunday.

 

[shaz619]

What I am trying to say is that Kohli was not done in by the swing.

Kohli has an issue with the ball going across him or leaving him. The previous ball which was slanted across him, he nicked it. To counter that he moved across to his off stump and covered it. But insted of playing straight, he tried to flick it for runs and got out.

So its not the swing that got him out. Rohit was done by the swing and movement.

If he is having issues with deliveries angled across him which you allege then how does that suggest he'd deal with the out swinger quiet well? and that ball did in fact nip away from him when he was dropped. Then he was undone by error of judgement, a probing off stump line which he notoriously has problems with, pace and probably pressure as well.

 

[Khan12]

You can put your bucks on anyone you like, but he surpassed Inzi long ago. He is only 28 but already a superior all-round batsman than anyone in Pakistan's history. He belongs in the league of Viv Richards, Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting, and none of our batsmen including Miandad belong in that list.

In choking too? Or you got an excuse ready for him in that regard as well. Reply to me when he bats like inzi in world cup semi final and final.

 

[shaz619]

He has stood for his team plenty of times. More so than the other so-called ATGs of this era and PP favourites. A couple of failures do not negate everything that he has done. Comfortably the most clutch batsman of this era in spite of the 2015 World Cup and the final on Sunday.

It's not about so and so's favourites or fancy catchphrases like clutch which are cliche; biases can and should be kept aside for once to judge a batsman more objectively. And the fact of the matter is that Kohli is a few levels below the likes of Viv but a world class modern bat who needs to do more in tough circumstances when the ball is doing a bit as well, otherwise it makes more sense to compare him to Virender Sehwag for now that is unless he gets better.

 

[Mamoon]

In choking too? Or you got an excuse ready for him in that regard as well. Reply to me when he bats like inzi in world cup semi final and final.

Yeah same Inzi who failed in 4 straight World Cups and failed in the Champions Trophy as well. He was an excellent ODI batsman, arguably Pakistan's best ever, but he is not fit to tie shoelaces of Kohli, who is an ODI ATG at the age of 28 and could finish as the ODI GOAT when he retires.

 

[Mamoon]

It's not about so and so's favourites or fancy catchphrases like clutch which are cliche; biases can and should be kept aside for once to judge a batsman more objectively. And the fact of the matter is that Kohli is a few levels below the likes of Viv but a world class modern bat who needs to do more in tough circumstances when the ball is doing a bit as well, otherwise it makes more sense to compare him to Virender Sehwag for now that is unless he gets better.

He is one great World Cup away from matching/surpassing Viv, and he is better than every other ODI batsman to have played the game.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Man, such sensitive fans. Can't take any criticism at all. Shaz jokes around a lot but these are valid points he's brought up.

 

[zyrus]

You can put your bucks on anyone you like, but he surpassed Inzi long ago. He is only 28 but already a superior all-round batsman than anyone in Pakistan's history. He belongs in the league of Viv Richards, Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting, and none of our batsmen including Miandad belong in that list.

What superiority? being FTB?

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Look it's not all about India you know, am not even from Pakistan; am a fan of the sport of cricket and am afraid it is premature to put Virat in the same sentence as names such as Viv and Sachin. He has achieved a lot in this modern era but you need to stand up during those big moments when things are not that great more often then not, he has in the past but as we saw during the CT final recently he looked out of his depth against a highly skilled bowler in Mohammad Amir and those 2013 demons have not been exorcised completely at the moment

Sorry bud, once you get them Pak genes, you stay a Pak. Don't run away from the truth, embrace it.

 

[Khan12]

Yeah same Inzi who failed in 4 straight World Cups and failed in the Champions Trophy as well. He was an excellent ODI batsman, arguably Pakistan's best ever, but he is not fit to tie shoelaces of Kohli, who is an ODI ATG at the age of 28 and could finish as the ODI GOAT when he retires.

He won us a world cup. Kohli has already played a heavy role in losing one for his team. I know you have made it a life long mission to defend him but please come to reality as well. And lol not to fit shoelaces of Kohli. Please remind me what has he done outside bilateral series. That's what you use to bash amla.

 

[shaz619]

If he is having issues with deliveries angled across him which you allege then how does that suggest he'd deal with the out swinger quiet well? and that ball did in fact nip away from him when he was dropped. Then he was undone by error of judgement, a probing off stump line which he notoriously has problems with, pace and probably pressure as well.

[MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION] that first delivery was nipping away right? anyhow the second one involved a probing off stump line which Kohli has struggled with; moving across his stumps was an awful and desperate decision to make when he saw the ball do a bit

 

[Mamoon]

What superiority? being FTB?

If Kohli is a FTB, what was Inzi? Yes yes, he played in an era where bowlers walked on water and batsmen batted with bats made of cardboard etc. etc., but there is no aspect of batting in which Kohli is inferior to Inzi.

 

[shaz619]

Sorry bud, once you get them Pak genes, you stay a Pak. Don't run away from the truth, embrace it.

Well said the deadly combo!

 

[Haz95]

Shaz ma pra there's no point at all with this thread...Even Indian fans won't defend Kohli as much as so called 'neutrals'. I've said it time and time again before, he's a choker who only does well when the platform is set and/or it's not a high pressure final while he is merely decent in setting scores and is mediocre when the ball does a bit. This is very critical analysis I know, but it must be done if hormonal fans are to claim the guys already better than Sachin and Punter smh.

This isn't Kohli vs AB or Amla where you can use one mans choking to justify anothers. This is Kohli vs King Viv, the little master and Punter.

 

[MajidBhuta-AamirFan]

Kohli is one of the best odi batsman for me.. I know Indian fans will go with Tendulkar!!

For Tandulkar century was way more important than a win.. whenever he reaches to 80, then he starts taking singles.. doesn't care even India has 8 wickets in hand... ab wo khailta nahee, mein uss ki backbiting nahee kar sakta..

 

[Chief Destroyer]

[MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION] that first delivery was nipping away right? anyhow the second one involved a probing off stump line which Kohli has struggled with; moving across his stumps was an awful and desperate decision to make when he saw the ball do a bit

Both of them nipped away. The second one fuller in length. Virat had the straight line covered. He doesn't miss out on those. Amir pinned him back with a shorter length and then a fuller length. Both of them got him. But the real reason Kohli was hesitant to fully commit was the swing back in Amir's first over. That created all the doubt.

 

[Haz95]

The realist cricketer in the Indian team, despite his flaws is Shikar Dhawan. That's what you call a guy who turns it on when it really matters.

 

[Mamoon]

He won us a world cup. Kohli has already played a heavy role in losing one for his team. I know you have made it a life long mission to defend him but please come to reality as well. And lol not to fit shoelaces of Kohli. Please remind me what has he done outside bilateral series. That's what you use to bash amla.

I said "all-round batsman". Kohli has done more in Test cricket in Australia and SA than Inzi in his entire career, and granted that Inzamam played an ATG knock in the semifinal of 92, it was still one innings only. Since then, he failed in every ICC tournament.

Kohli is the greatest chaser of all time, he will probably finish with 50+ ODI tons and and is already the greatest T20 batsman ever. In Tests, he has done better than any Asian batsman in Australia, and the only place where he has failed so far is England. He is a LOI ATG already, and could end as a Test great by the end of his career. Keeping all of that into consideration, he is definitely a league above Inzi as a batsman.

Amla is the biggest choker of all time, but in Tests, he is a league above Inzi as well and one good World Cup innings away from surpassing him in ODIs. Our standards of batting are quite low, batsmen like Inzi, MoYo, Younis etc. have no standing in the cricketing fraternity. They are nothing more than good batsmen. Miandad is the only batting ATG we have produced so far.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Well said the deadly combo!

Lol, that's actually true. You should be a beast of an athlete. Got the most athletic genes from the east and west.

 

[shaz619]

Shaz ma pra there's no point at all with this thread...Even Indian fans won't defend Kohli as much as so called 'neutrals'. I've said it time and time again before, he's a choker who only does well when the platform is set and/or it's not a high pressure final while he is merely decent in setting scores and is mediocre when the ball does a bit. This is very critical analysis I know, but it must be done if hormonal fans are to claim the guys already better than Sachin and Punter smh.

This isn't Kohli vs AB or Amla where you can use one mans choking to justify anothers. This is Kohli vs King Viv, the little master and Punter.

I agree, not sure why people don't share your logic it really isn't that complicated but I suppose their fandom gets in the way of their thinking patterns. Am not even insulting the guy, I've pointed out clearly instances where he has struggled so why should I put him at the level of Viv etc when he has not done so well during key moments more often?

Does he really get a pass for failing in a 50 over ICC final when the ball was doing a bit? that too against Pakistan, look at how Azhar Ali batted, ODI's don't even come naturally to him but he was willing to die for Pakistan on that day. However, it must be said that he is a lot more sound technically with regards to the moving ball but he still maintained a very healthy S/R which is his Kryptonite and took pressure of Fakhar when he was struggling early on; these are the moments which define your legacy

 

[Belawal2014]

Man, such sensitive fans. Can't take any criticism at all. Shaz jokes around a lot but these are valid points he's brought up.

Majority (yes majority) of Indian fans are quite sensitive tbh. All my Indian friends had glum faces that even I felt bad taunting them when we won.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

The realist cricketer in the Indian team, despite his flaws is Shikar Dhawan. That's what you call a guy who turns it on when it really matters.

Truly a big game player. Nerves of steel.

 

[Haz95]

lol the GOAT chaser of all time who's 'leagues ahead of Inzi' has still yet to produce an innings like Inzis chase in the 92 World Cup when it counted.....

 

[WC-Passion]

Alright then, in your world he's not technically inept. However, based on what you've said the lateral movement does cause error of judgement; which is still a major weakness. It's like saying well, Imran Farhat can still bat well so long you don't confuse him by playing on green tops or get him up against highly skilled bowlers who can swing or seam the ball [MENTION=138836]WC-Passion[/MENTION]

Yeah I don't understand this logic from [MENTION=141520]troodon[/MENTION] either, clearly Kohli was beaten with the ball moving around his off-stump. That Farhat analogy just reminds me of his middle stump going into orbit in 2013 CT against South Africa, which of course had to be the only game I went to.

 

[vandokkum]

When you are as good as he is, every failure becomes a weakness. Besides, every batsman has strong and weak-zones. The so-called GOAT batsman Bradman had his career average halved when bowlers bowled at his body; Lara, arguably the best player of spin in the last 20 years, struggled on Indian turners.

Kohli is an ODI ATG and second only to Sir Viv at this point, and he is only entering his peak years now.

If Kohli doesn't score big in WC knock outs, he will not be the ODI ATG

 

[zyrus]

If Kohli is a FTB, what was Inzi? Yes yes, he played in an era where bowlers walked on water and batsmen batted with bats made of cardboard etc. etc., but there is no aspect of batting in which Kohli is inferior to Inzi.

Inzi would have won CT final against such attack.

 

[WC-Passion]

I said "all-round batsman". Kohli has done more in Test cricket in Australia and SA than Inzi in his entire career, and granted that Inzamam played an ATG knock in the semifinal of 92, it was still one innings only. Since then, he failed in every ICC tournament.

Kohli is the greatest chaser of all time, he will probably finish with 50+ ODI tons and and is already the greatest T20 batsman ever. In Tests, he has done better than any Asian batsman in Australia, and the only place where he has failed so far is England. He is a LOI ATG already, and could end as a Test great by the end of his career. Keeping all of that into consideration, he is definitely a league above Inzi as a batsman.

Amla is the biggest choker of all time, but in Tests, he is a league above Inzi as well and one good World Cup innings away from surpassing him in ODIs. Our standards of batting are quite low, batsmen like Inzi, MoYo, Younis etc. have no standing in the cricketing fraternity. They are nothing more than good batsmen. Miandad is the only batting ATG we have produced so far.

Best T20 batsmen is Kohli? Personally think Chris Gayle or ABDV are better in T20's. Would find it interesting to hear why you think this.

 

[hk031992]

Rating Kohli as the second greatest ODI batsmen ever is a joke

He is certainly an all time great in ODI but he is behind Viv, Tendulkar, Ponting, Gilchrist, Jayasuria, and a few others.

If you disagree with me putting Gilly and Jayasuria there, yes their averages aren't outstanding, but its the impact that they made which is outstanding.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

When you see Rohit getting LBW at 140 plus delivery than it's very difficult to leave balls.

That delivery where Azhar dropped Kohli was really difficult delivery. Angled across at pace.


Kohli smelled as a GOAT that Amir is in red hot rhythm so he has to take him on otherwise He will over power him so He tried to play one of his top notch shot ie flick through midwicket for four to upset Amir's line and length but the ball again was pitched at 6.5 meters length at pace and again went with the angle.

Kohli lost the battle and Amir won it.


So give Amir the credit.


Kohli is a GOAT Odi batsman. His plan was spot on but Amir overpowered him. Simple.

 

[shaz619]

I have no idea what game people have been watching, every quarter advocates the fact that he was undone by movement; if people do not accept that then he was undone at the very least by doubts created by the movement amir generated in his previous over.

Its an insult to mention this man on a level playing field as Sir Viv and the others, he flopped in a final and his kryptonite the weakness outside off stump and movement consumed him not to mention the pressure of a final.

 

[shaz619]

Yeah I don't understand this logic from [MENTION=141520]troodon[/MENTION] either, clearly Kohli was beaten with the ball moving around his off-stump. That Farhat analogy just reminds me of his middle stump going into orbit in 2013 CT against South Africa, which of course had to be the only game I went to.

Kohli has issues with everything pitched outside off going by his logic ) I have an eternal image of him hitting Steyn for 6 over his head

 

[shaz619]

Both of them nipped away. The second one fuller in length. Virat had the straight line covered. He doesn't miss out on those. Amir pinned him back with a shorter length and then a fuller length. Both of them got him. But the real reason Kohli was hesitant to fully commit was the swing back in Amir's first over. That created all the doubt.

Good post, your insight on fast bowling is amazing and it's not like you blindly criticise players or else you'd not be praising Dhawas incredible feats in ICC tournaments. So if even you are saying he nipped the ball away am not sure how others can disagree, it's that rhetoric they have to accept in order to advocate Kohli's greatness but in the end he still failed, he got knocked out, he was made to take a knee and kneel before the truth

 

[Chief Destroyer]

I have no idea what game people have been watching, every quarter advocates the fact that he was undone by movement; if people do not accept that then he was undone at the very least by doubts created by the movement amir generated in his previous over.

Its an insult to mention this man on a level playing field as Sir Viv and the others, he flopped in a final and his kryptonite the weakness outside off stump and movement consumed him not to mention the pressure of a final.

Both clearly seamed away. People can go watch it again in slow mo to confirm. Both wobbly seam deliveries that pitched and the seam lost its shape after pitching which is a clear sign of lateral movement(if they're blind and can't see it without it). The seam does not lose its shape if it's a straight line delivery. If you don't understand this, you don't understand fast bowling.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Both clearly seamed away. People can go watch it again in slow mo to confirm. Both wobbly seam deliveries that pitched and the seam lost its shape after pitching which is a clear sign of lateral movement(if they're blind and can't see it without it). The seam does not lose its shape if it's a straight line delivery. If you don't understand this, you don't understand fast bowling.

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] Kohli is too good a player to miss straight line deliveries. He had that line covered.

 

[shaz619]

Both clearly seamed away. People can go watch it again in slow mo to confirm. Both wobbly seam deliveries that pitched and the seam lost its shape after pitching which is a clear sign of lateral movement(if they're blind and can't see it without it). The seam does not lose its shape if it's a straight line delivery. If you don't understand this, you don't understand fast bowling.

Well said and even then at the very least if people have doubts, they should ask themselves; why did Kohli not comit to his stroke?

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] Kohli is too good a player to miss straight line deliveries. He had that line covered.

Yes, it was the movement which forced the leading edge; that is his best shot in my opinion

 

[sali]

Asia cup: He was dropped and his lucky LBW went against Amir.
1st Match against India: He was dropped.
Final Match against India: He was dropped but Amir knew that you have to get him out twice for him to leave.

 

[EliteCynical]

There has definitely been an improvement but the problem still remains, he hasn't completely eradicated it. The uncertainty is still there, the best tend to stand up when up against incredibly skilled bowlers and find solutions to such problems and Amir stood tall in this instance; it's a BIG feather in his cap. Had Kohli survived just imagine the poetry which would be written, but given how Amir has been negatively received by some fans they've not given him as much credit as he deserves for the monumental feat in a 50 over ICC final against India.

Kohli has someway to go before he cements his status as a legendary batsman, but for now he is a world class bat in the modern era

Brilliant points. I agree with you about the fact had Kohli survived, poetry would have been written. There is a fine line between success and failure. If you remember, WT20 game at Kolkata, Amir did have Kohli in trouble, but he saw that spell off and poetry was written.

He has played 2 innings at Oval this CT, and edged to slip on both occasions. He definitely has to tighten up IMHO.

 

[Suleiman]

He can score more runs with one hand tied behind his back be it in England, India or China than Fakhar, Babar, Azhar, Hafeez combined.

Amir should be honored. Not many can go toe to toe with The Great One and say I took him down not once but twice.

But now I fear Amir may have woken the true beast of 2011-2012 within Virat, and he will now ditch this good guy persona that he has picked up in the last year along with a beard that doesn't suit his face and be ruthless.

 

[www787]

In Game-1 which India won, Kohli is the greatest.

In finals after failing with the bat, Kohli is exposed.

I guess Kohli cannot fail. He has to always score a 100 to maintain his reputation.

In sports that's how thing are. He didn't come up good when it matter the most.

 

[Savak]

The Indian tour of England in 2014 summarizes the early on, outswing on offstump weakness of Kohli. Heck even Tendulkar was not this vulnerable. All Kohli has to do is to have a good tour in similar conditions and he will become the perfect batsman.

Another point is that he did look under pressure in the CT final, haven't seen that from him for quite a while.

 

[itsme]

In Game-1 which India won, Kohli is the greatest.

In finals after failing with the bat, Kohli is exposed.

I guess Kohli cannot fail. He has to always score a 100 to maintain his reputation.

2 times in two balls though

 

[Hasan123]

Why are his fans so sensitive?

He is deemed the best so scrutiny is expected, the man is advocated as the second coming of Viv it's only fitting that we expect him to delivery in challenging circumstances and when he does not then it needs to be discussed, after all that's what forums are for...discussion. On wickets with a bit of bounce he has been ok and on those which were roads but if you get the ball to do a bit sideways and he struggles.

That's my main issue with regards to how people rate him I don't even say choke etc like others, he hasn't completely eradicated his technical issues outside off stump and needs to stand up more when everything is at stake

His overall record in the tournament was fine. He has shown weakness vs swing and seam bur he's not as bad as Warner ,Guptill, and Rohit vs the moving ball.

He's still the best chaser in the world. .

 

[mak36]

There has definitely been an improvement but the problem still remains, he hasn't completely eradicated it. The uncertainty is still there, the best tend to stand up when up against incredibly skilled bowlers and find solutions to such problems and Amir stood tall in this instance; it's a BIG feather in his cap. Had Kohli survived just imagine the poetry which would be written, but given how Amir has been negatively received by some fans they've not given him as much credit as he deserves for the monumental feat in a 50 over ICC final against India.

Kohli has someway to go before he cements his status as a legendary batsman, but for now he is a world class bat in the modern era

Exactly. Labels such as ATG/GOAT are premature; a player should only be given such labels after their career has finished.