Will any Indian fast bowler get into PSL on merit?

[RedwoodOriginal]

The perception that Pakistan has amazing fast bowling talent is not too off- here is the difference though.

A raw product fast bowler from Pak looks very appealing- good height, athletic, quick arm action, pace and basic swing and seam skills. Immediately to appease the public he is fast tracked.

However after initial success they refuse to learn and adapt so never improve or if they don’t succeed they are terribly mismanaged and wasted away.

Indian system works differently. You find a cricketer who checks a lot of boxes, you work on that player and help him increase his skills and method to succeed at the highest level: there is no guarantee to even that but there is a pathway and a process to success. If you don’t improve, you don’t get a shot. I bet a bowler like Umran Malik or Tyagi would play a lot more in Pak team (not accounting for politics , mismanagement etc) because of raw pace.

I doubt a bowler as terrible as Umran Malik would have played international cricket for most teams in the world, let alone Pakistan. But I agree with else you said. Pakistan simply don't know how to develop a talent, whether its bowling or batting. It's just that Pakistan has more fast-bowling talent so that comes into the spotlight more. Every so often you get someone who succeeds inspite of the system, rather than because of it. And that gives decision-makers something to boast about and take credit for while the fledging and decrepit system continues being the same.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Certain Indian posters will thump their chests and poke fun at Pak fast-bowling talent but remind me again, what's the fast-bowling talent coming out of IPL? Avesh Khan? Yash Dayal? Mukesh McGrath? Deshpande?

How can any self-respecting cricket fan talk up these bowlers?

 

[Bewal Express]

Our bowlers are bad but outside Bumrah, Inds are just as bad.

 

[Local.Dada]

Certain Indian posters will thump their chests and poke fun at Pak fast-bowling talent but remind me again, what's the fast-bowling talent coming out of IPL? Avesh Khan? Yash Dayal? Mukesh McGrath? Deshpande?

How can any self-respecting cricket fan talk up these bowlers?

Arshdeep Singh, Bumrah, Hardik Pandya won us over no 18,19 and 20 of WT20

Umesh, Shami, Ishant have blown away teams even on Indian pitches in tests on spin bowls. India has played 2 WTC finals

Shami’s World Cup performance had Pak TV channels thinking there is chip in the ball. A half-fit and bored Shami ended up being one of the highest wicket takers in CT too

Siraj blew away SL one sided to win us Asia cup.

Mukesh Kumar, Siraj and Bumrah won us test in SA

Thakur, Natarajan and Siraj won us a historic series in Australia.

Also Avesh Khan, Yash Dayal, Nitish Rana, Akashdeep are leagues better than Jahandad, Abbas Ali etc etc. they just won us a test in recent BGT too

Naseem is the only real talent. Abbas is good red ball and Shaheen is a good white ball bowler. Rauf is not better than Umran Malik. Just that he plays for a team with less resources or maybe politics. I think Hasnain and Md Wasim are leagues better than Rauf and they are not even as good as Nitish Rana.

Bumrah: self explanatory

 

[ads101]

I miss the days where Dhoni would have to manage his pacers incredibly well and also even come out from behind the stumps to give India that extra bowing options lol.

Those were the days

I think Shaheen and Haris would definitely get into IPL if they allowed Pakistani cricketers though.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Surely not Mukesh Kumar. He is worse than Mohammed Ali

He is not. Mukesh Kumar is as good as any current Pakistani bowler in Test cricket.

 

[Sachin fan]

I doubt a bowler as terrible as Umran Malik would have played international cricket for most teams in the world, let alone Pakistan. But I agree with else you said. Pakistan simply don't know how to develop a talent, whether its bowling or batting. It's just that Pakistan has more fast-bowling talent so that comes into the spotlight more. Every so often you get someone who succeeds inspite of the system, rather than because of it. And that gives decision-makers something to boast about and take credit for while the fledging and decrepit system continues being the same.

Umran malik t20 average - 22, strike rate 12.6

Naseem shah t20 average - 35, strike rate 25

But but umran is terrible because this guy said so, lol.

 

[Sachin fan]

Naseem is the only real talent.

Not this myth again.

Naseem averages 35 in tests and t20s which is among the worst in world cricket since his debut. Heck it's worse than most Indian bowlers in history which pak used to make fun of.

In ODIs he started with a bang but has been averaging over 40+ for last 2 years.

Number wise he has been one of the worst bowlers in world cricket from ANY team.

If you compare umran and naseem

Umran malik t20 average - 22, strike rate 12.6

Naseem shah t20 average - 35, strike rate 25

 

[BouncerGuy]

Question is wrong. Will any indian pacer?

it should be how many indian pacers..

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Umran malik t20 average - 22, strike rate 12.6

Naseem shah t20 average - 35, strike rate 25

But but umran is terrible because this guy said so, lol.

Comparing Umran Malik to Naseem Shah. Now I've heard it all lmao

 

[Sachin fan]

Comparing Umran Malik to Naseem Shah. Now I've heard it all lmao

Numbers dont lie, you can create fake hype for players all you want, but the fact that you consider someone who averages 35+ in tests a good bowler and talented shows the reality. Even our Venkatesh Prasad and Abbey Kuruvilla, two of the worst bowlers to bowl for India in tests, averaged better than Naseem.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Numbers dont lie, you can create fake hype for players all you want, but the fact that you consider someone who averages 35+ in tests a good bowler and talented shows the reality. Even our Venkatesh Prasad and Abbey Kuruvilla, two of the worst bowlers to bowl for India in tests, averaged better than Naseem.

What's telling is you being an apologist for one of the worst bowlers India has produced in recent memory. I never called Naseem a great bowler but he has more talent in his left pinky than Umran will ever have. So please stop making this nonsensical comparison.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Arshdeep Singh, Bumrah, Hardik Pandya won us over no 18,19 and 20 of WT20

Umesh, Shami, Ishant have blown away teams even on Indian pitches in tests on spin bowls. India has played 2 WTC finals

Shami’s World Cup performance had Pak TV channels thinking there is chip in the ball. A half-fit and bored Shami ended up being one of the highest wicket takers in CT too

Siraj blew away SL one sided to win us Asia cup.

Mukesh Kumar, Siraj and Bumrah won us test in SA

Thakur, Natarajan and Siraj won us a historic series in Australia.

Also Avesh Khan, Yash Dayal, Nitish Rana, Akashdeep are leagues better than Jahandad, Abbas Ali etc etc. they just won us a test in recent BGT too

Naseem is the only real talent. Abbas is good red ball and Shaheen is a good white ball bowler. Rauf is not better than Umran Malik. Just that he plays for a team with less resources or maybe politics. I think Hasnain and Md Wasim are leagues better than Rauf and they are not even as good as Nitish Rana.

Bumrah: self explanatory

Don't think you understood my point at all. I was talking about fast-bowlers coming out of IPL recently, not since the beginning of time. And my point was that young Pak fast-bowlers have more natural attributes needed to be successful in fast-bowling but don't have the system, management, necessary coaching and guidance to reach their full-potential. Indian bowlers lack alot of these attributes but end up becoming better bowlers because they are polished, coached, managed much better.

Side-note: there is nothing impressive about bowlers like Mukesh, Siraj, Avesh, Dayal, Akash Deep. And Umran Malik is not better than most club-level bowlers, let alone Haris Rauf.

 

[saimayubera]

I doubt a bowler as terrible as Umran Malik would have played international cricket for most teams in the world, let alone Pakistan. But I agree with else you said. Pakistan simply don't know how to develop a talent, whether its bowling or batting. It's just that Pakistan has more fast-bowling talent so that comes into the spotlight more. Every so often you get someone who succeeds inspite of the system, rather than because of it. And that gives decision-makers something to boast about and take credit for while the fledging and decrepit system continues being the same.

Naah Umran is way better than a lot of crap bowlers Pak have had in recent years.

 

[saimayubera]

Don't think you understood my point at all. I was talking about fast-bowlers coming out of IPL recently, not since the beginning of time. And my point was that young Pak fast-bowlers have more natural attributes needed to be successful in fast-bowling but don't have the system, management, necessary coaching and guidance to reach their full-potential. Indian bowlers lack alot of these attributes but end up becoming better bowlers because they are polished, coached, managed much better.

Side-note: there is nothing impressive about bowlers like Mukesh, Siraj, Avesh, Dayal, Akash Deep. And Umran Malik is not better than most club-level bowlers, let alone Haris Rauf.

Siraj has more achievements than any Pak bowler post Waqar.

ICC trophy winner plus won test series in Aus and drew in Eng, SA with significant contributions.

 

[saimayubera]

What's telling is you being an apologist for one of the worst bowlers India has produced in recent memory. I never called Naseem a great bowler but he has more talent in his left pinky than Umran will ever have. So please stop making this nonsensical comparison.

Naah Naseem sucks. What has Naseem EVER won in his career?

Naseem's USP is crying which appeals to social media fans.

 

[saimayubera]

Not this myth again.

Naseem averages 35 in tests and t20s which is among the worst in world cricket since his debut. Heck it's worse than most Indian bowlers in history which pak used to make fun of.

In ODIs he started with a bang but has been averaging over 40+ for last 2 years.

Number wise he has been one of the worst bowlers in world cricket from ANY team.

If you compare umran and naseem

Umran malik t20 average - 22, strike rate 12.6

Naseem shah t20 average - 35, strike rate 25

That test average is due to weak teams too. Against SENA it is 40+

 

[saimayubera]

He is not. Mukesh Kumar is as good as any current Pakistani bowler in Test cricket.

Mukesh won India a test in SA, something Pak haven't managed to in 20+ years.

 

[saimayubera]

Siraj has more achievements than any Pak bowler post Waqar.

ICC trophy winner plus won test series in Aus and drew in Eng, SA with significant contributions.

Also won an Asia Cup with his contribution.

 

[Sachin fan]

What's telling is you being an apologist for one of the worst bowlers India has produced in recent memory. I never called Naseem a great bowler but he has more talent in his left pinky than Umran will ever have. So please stop making this nonsensical comparison.

Numbers are wrong and only your "feelings" are right.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Naah Umran is way better than a lot of crap bowlers Pak have had in recent years.

No he's not. He's a street cricketer than only Indian fans put over.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Numbers are wrong and only your "feelings" are right.

Yeah sure, 12 T20I matches are numbers that matter. Indian selectors and team management wouldn't be caught dead playing him in any ICC tournament.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Siraj has more achievements than any Pak bowler post Waqar.

ICC trophy winner plus won test series in Aus and drew in Eng, SA with significant contributions.

Talent and success are not always mutually inclusive.

Siraj is lucky he plays for a team like India where he can rely on a generational talent like Bumrah to carry the attack and stick to bowling his steady eddy line and length. He is not good enough to lead a bowling attack.

 

[saimayubera]

Talent and success are not always mutually inclusive.

Siraj is lucky he plays for a team like India where he can rely on a generational talent like Bumrah to carry the attack and stick to bowling his steady eddy line and length. He is not good enough to lead a bowling attack.

Naah. That's why I added significant contributions so this excuse won't fly.

Aus decider test at Gabba Bumrah didn't play and he took the 5fer.

England Lord's test he took the most wickets at 8.

SA 2nd test he was the one that broke SA in the first innings.

AC final again, he was the lead man.

What you are saying is true of someone like Umesh, not Siraj who has had his solo hits.

 

[saimayubera]

Yeah sure, 12 T20I matches are numbers that matter. Indian selectors and team management wouldn't be caught dead playing him in any ICC tournament.

That's cause India has Bumrah and Arshdeep. One is the T20 goat, the other the best of the emerging pacers.

In Pak, Umran would be a mainstay.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Naah. That's why I added significant contributions so this excuse won't fly.

Aus decider test at Gabba Bumrah didn't play and he took the 5fer.

England Lord's test he took the most wickets at 8.

SA 2nd test he was the one that broke SA in the first innings.

AC final again, he was the lead man.

What you are saying is true of someone like Umesh, not Siraj who has had his solo hits.

Sooner or later even a blind squirrel finds a nut

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

That's cause India has Bumrah and Arshdeep. One is the T20 goat, the other the best of the emerging pacers.

In Pak, Umran would be a mainstay.

Bowlers like Umran are a dime a dozen here. He would be lucky to get past the club cricket level in Pak. The only reason he played for India is because India haven't produced even a half-decent express pacer in forever. Then they found Mayank Yadav and decided they didn't need to waste time on street-cricketer Umran, which perhaps explains why he doesn't even have an IPL contract now.

 

[Local.Dada]

Don't think you understood my point at all. I was talking about fast-bowlers coming out of IPL recently, not since the beginning of time. And my point was that young Pak fast-bowlers have more natural attributes needed to be successful in fast-bowling but don't have the system, management, necessary coaching and guidance to reach their full-potential. Indian bowlers lack alot of these attributes but end up becoming better bowlers because they are polished, coached, managed much better.

Side-note: there is nothing impressive about bowlers like Mukesh, Siraj, Avesh, Dayal, Akash Deep. And Umran Malik is not better than most club-level bowlers, let alone Haris Rauf.

My list was the events of the last 5-7 yrs not from 1947.

Rauf just went for 80+ runs on a seaming pitch. Indian domestic seam bowlers would have run riot on that pitch.

Nothing impressive about Siraj? He has bowled India to win in Asia cup finals and tests in Australia and England. Talk about ignorance

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

My list was the events of the last 5-7 yrs not from 1947.

Rauf just went for 80+ runs on a seaming pitch. Indian domestic seam bowlers would have run riot on that pitch.

Nothing impressive about Siraj? He has bowled India to win in Asia cup finals and tests in Australia and England. Talk about ignorance

No need to get bent out of shape just because not everyone is interested in overrating Indian pacers like you. A bowler like Siraj wouldn't even be a top five pick in any other top-quality side like Australia, New Zealand, or South Africa.

 

[Hellion]

Akif Javed has a higher ceiling than any left arm seamer I have ever seen from India. Pace, bounce and movement like nothing ever seen in IPL.

 

[Local.Dada]

No need to get bent out of shape just because not everyone is interested in overrating Indian pacers like you. A bowler like Siraj wouldn't even be a top five pick in any other top-quality side like Australia, New Zealand, or South Africa.

Ah, now from Pakistan to SA, Nzl or Aus. Bent out of shape is the wrong use of words, you should go with clutching at straws

 

[Local.Dada]

Akif Javed has a higher ceiling than any left arm seamer I have ever seen from India. Pace, bounce and movement like nothing ever seen in IPL.

Is he better than left arm seamer Arshdeep you think?

 

[uppercut]

Question is wrong. Will any indian pacer?

it should be how many indian pacers..

bhai we know the answer to that question is closer to ZERO. Why you trolling us poor Indians.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Ah, now from Pakistan to SA, Nzl or Aus. Bent out of shape is the wrong use of words, you should go with clutching at straws

It's actually funny to see you get so personally offended at me saying that Siraj is nothing special. That's not even a controversial opinion. But hey, feel free to overrate these trundlers all you want—just don't expect others to tie a blindfold over their eyes and jump on the bandwagon with you.

 

[Bhaijaan]

I see Indian fans are gloating after a few years of success.

They shouldn't forget their pace attack was always a joke until around 10 years ago.

You are unlikely to see this type of petty gloating from Aussie fans even though Australia has always been the land of pace bowlers.

We can never reach the levels of Bengal Tigers.

Tapash Garner alone is better than all our pacers combined bro.

 

[Hellion]

Is he better than left arm seamer Arshdeep you think?

His ceiling is much higher than Arshdeep's. It's only his fake age, lack of IQ and lack of an efficient bowling technique holding him back.

 

[Local.Dada]

His ceiling is much higher than Arshdeep's. It's only his fake age, lack of IQ and lack of an efficient bowling technique holding him back.

Got your larger point

 

[Sachin fan]

It's actually funny to see you get so personally offended at me saying that Siraj is nothing special. That's not even a controversial opinion. But hey, feel free to overrate these trundlers all you want—just don't expect others to tie a blindfold over their eyes and jump on the bandwagon with you.

The absolute irony of this comment after constantly hyping up and overeating a 35+ averaging bowler is hilarious.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Bumrah, Arshdeep will make it for sure.

Siraj probably

Others will struggle to get into PSL competing against international and local Pakistani pacers who are generally better. Let’s not kid ourselves Pakistan don’t have a Bumrah right now but they’re still a decent pace bowling nation.

Ok the list is growing bro.

Bumrah
Arshdeep
Siraj
Krishna

All four look great in the IPL against quality batters.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The absolute irony of this comment after constantly hyping up a 35+ averaging bowler is hilarious.

I wouldn’t call rating someone higher than Umran Malik “hyping them up”—there are kids playing cricket on my street who are more talented than him.

 

[Local.Dada]

Not this myth again.

Naseem averages 35 in tests and t20s which is among the worst in world cricket since his debut. Heck it's worse than most Indian bowlers in history which pak used to make fun of.

In ODIs he started with a bang but has been averaging over 40+ for last 2 years.

Number wise he has been one of the worst bowlers in world cricket from ANY team.

If you compare umran and naseem

Umran malik t20 average - 22, strike rate 12.6

Naseem shah t20 average - 35, strike rate 25

We need to separate 2 things here- the hype and the actual talent.

Shaheen is better than Bumrah, best thing since sliced bread is what you hear from some PP fans . That stupidity overshadows the fact that Shaheen is a very good white ball bowler and not good enough for tests.

Naseem Shah will make Indian batsmen shake in their boots etc you will hear from some fans which might be irritating but doesn’t take away from the fact that he is a very good talent with all the boxes checked. Except for height maybe.

We have to be very careful to find the correct middle ground on some of the topics.

Obviously sometimes people get responses in the tone they use.

 

[Local.Dada]

I wouldn’t call rating someone higher than Umran Malik “hyping them up”—there are kids playing cricket on my street who are more talented than him.

Comprehension issues? No one said Umran Malik is the best thing since sliced bread. A bowler like Umran would play a lot more for a middling team like Pak. In India once there was no improvement, it was back to the drawing board. Best part is he is not selling kebabs or driving a taxi after his career is over, he is back into the system and people are working on him to help him get better: that’s what we are trying to get across.

If he got as many chances as mediocre Rauf etc then he would probably have similar performances and returns too.

Your way of looking at “talent” itself is flawed lol.

 

[umerz]

Shami, Bumrah, Ashwin and Jadega as an all rounder are sure shots

 

[saimayubera]

Sooner or later even a blind squirrel finds a nut

Too many nuts and too high quality.

 

[saimayubera]

No need to get bent out of shape just because not everyone is interested in overrating Indian pacers like you. A bowler like Siraj wouldn't even be a top five pick in any other top-quality side like Australia, New Zealand, or South Africa.

Naah.

He won't be lead pacer but would be definitely in the SA starting lineup and Aus/NZ reserves.

Siraj averaged 15.22 in the recent SA series and 31.15 in BGT.

Sa have guys like Ngidi and Maphaka as third pacer (Ngidi averages 47 away from home). NZ's 4th seamer is Nathan Smith.

Siraj has 100 test wickets at 30.74. That is better than any Pak pacer in last 15 years, maybe even more (Reminder that Asif and Abbas have hardly played at home).

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Comprehension issues? No one said Umran Malik is the best thing since sliced bread. A bowler like Umran would play a lot more for a middling team like Pak. In India once there was no improvement, it was back to the drawing board. Best part is he is not selling kebabs or driving a taxi after his career is over, he is back into the system and people are working on him to help him get better: that’s what we are trying to get across.

If he got as many chances as mediocre Rauf etc then he would probably have similar performances and returns too.

Your way of looking at “talent” itself is flawed lol.

Don't talk out of school if you have no idea what you're talking about. Go back and read OP's comments before you open your mouth and start blabbering incessantly. He is the one who started this comparison between Naseem and Umran Malik, not me.

No idea why you keep repeating the same point over and over again. But since you can't get it through your head, I'll repeat again and for the last time. Umran would be lucky to go past the club cricket level here. He is without a doubt one of the worst bowlers to play international cricket in recent years. Bowlers like Umran are a dime a dozen here. We don't need another spraygun who can't even land six deliveries in the same area. The only reason he played for India was because India have produced like 2 express pacers in the last 20 years or whatever. And as flawed as Haris Rauf I don't see how any sane person can even compare a street-level bowler like Umran to him. Guess that shows how well you understand cricket.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Naah.

He won't be lead pacer but would be definitely in the SA starting lineup and Aus/NZ reserves.

Siraj averaged 15.22 in the recent SA series and 31.15 in BGT.

Sa have guys like Ngidi and Maphaka as third pacer (Ngidi averages 47 away from home). NZ's 4th seamer is Nathan Smith.

Siraj has 100 test wickets at 30.74. That is better than any Pak pacer in last 15 years, maybe even more (Reminder that Asif and Abbas have hardly played at home).

Whatever makes you sleep at night. Personally though, the fact that you think that you can compare Indian bowling to a country like South Africa with a rich history and assembly-line of fast-bowling talent is laughable to say the least. Seems the rise of Bumrah has given some of you an inflated sense of importance about the quality of Indian fast-bowling. Last I checked, India still hasn't won a series in South Africa.

 

[saimayubera]

Whatever makes you sleep at night. Personally though, the fact that you think that you can compare Indian bowling to a country like South Africa with a rich history and assembly-line of fast-bowling talent is laughable to say the least. Seems the rise of Bumrah has given some of you an inflated sense of importance about the quality of Indian fast-bowling talent.

Considering the fact that Ngidi and Maphaka are SA's 3rd seamers, history doesn't really count for anything. Pakistan had a history. Where is it now?

Also the quality of Indian fast bowling talent have ensured 7 ICC trophies, which is 3 more than SA and Pak combined with their "rich history and assembly-line of fast-bowling talent".

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Considering the fact that Ngidi and Maphaka are SA's 3rd seamers, history doesn't really count for anything. Pakistan had a history. Where is it now?

Also the quality of Indian fast bowling talent have ensured 7 ICC trophies, which is 3 more than SA and Pak combined with their "rich history and assembly-line of fast-bowling talent".

Rabada
Jansen
Coetzee
Burger
Nortje

How are they the third seamers?

Yeah we all saw the quality of Indian fast-bowling talent on full display in the CT, when they played a grand-total of 1 front-line fast-bowler in the final. Also lol, it's cute that you are attributing those 7 ICC trophies to the "quality of Indian fast bowling talent", I'm sure batters at the 1983 WC were just shaking in their boots at the prospect of facing the high pace of Madan Lal and Roger Binny.

 

[saimayubera]

Rabada
Jansen
Coetzee
Burger
Nortje

How are they the third seamers?

Yeah we all saw the quality of Indian fast-bowling talent on full display in the CT, when they played a grand-total of 1 front-line fast-bowler in the final. Also lol, it's cute that you are attributing those 7 ICC trophies to the "quality of Indian fast bowling talent", I'm sure batters at the 1983 WC were just shaking in their boots at the prospect of facing the high pace of Madan Lal and Roger Binny.

None of Coetzee, Burger and Nortje are as good as Siraj. Burger and Coetzee have played six matches in total, all at home or weak oppositions.

Nortje has an away average of 30 with 150 average in India.

Siraj averages 24 in SA too which would be lower if he got to play non-SA teams in SA.

Whether players were shaking or not is not the matter. Thing is Binny and Lal were the 2 highest wicket takers in that WC (Binny - 18 @ 18.66 and Lal - 17 @ 16.76) and had figures of 1/23 and 3/31 in the final and won the WC, something Waqar, Shoaib, Donald, Steyn etc with all their pace never could.

You mistakenly picked a very very bad example lol.

CT was turning pitches so India played spinners. That's called cricketing acumen. Not like Pak playing with one frontline spinner and getting knocked out in 4 days in their own home tournament.

In the 24 WC India played 3 pacers in the USA leg (including defending 120 vs Pak) and then in the more spin friendly WI leg, put in a spinner replacing Siraj. they won the WC without dropping a game. That is cricketing acumen.

 

[Sachin fan]

We need to separate 2 things here- the hype and the actual talent.

Shaheen is better than Bumrah, best thing since sliced bread is what you hear from some PP fans . That stupidity overshadows the fact that Shaheen is a very good white ball bowler and not good enough for tests.

Naseem Shah will make Indian batsmen shake in their boots etc you will hear from some fans which might be irritating but doesn’t take away from the fact that he is a very good talent with all the boxes checked. Except for height maybe.

We have to be very careful to find the correct middle ground on some of the topics.

Obviously sometimes people get responses in the tone they use.

He has played nearly 80 international matches and has been around since 2019. At what point will this so called "talent" transform to actual performances?

As I said he has some of the worst numbers for any bowler in entire cricket history. You cannot keep saying talent talent for someone averaging over 35+ in cricket, after playing 5+ years, it's just ridiculous.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

None of Coetzee, Burger and Nortje are as good as Siraj. Burger and Coetzee have played six matches in total, all at home or weak oppositions.

Nortje has an away average of 30 with 150 average in India.

Siraj averages 24 in SA too which would be lower if he got to play non-SA teams in SA.

Whether players were shaking or not is not the matter. Thing is Binny and Lal were the 2 highest wicket takers in that WC (Binny - 18 @ 18.66 and Lal - 17 @ 16.76) and had figures of 1/23 and 3/31 in the final and won the WC, something Waqar, Shoaib, Donald, Steyn etc with all their pace never could.

You mistakenly picked a very very bad example lol.

CT was turning pitches so India played spinners. That's called cricketing acumen. Not like Pak playing with one frontline spinner and getting knocked out in 4 days in their own home tournament.

In the 24 WC India played 3 pacers in the USA leg (including defending 120 vs Pak) and then in the more spin friendly WI leg, put in a spinner replacing Siraj. they won the WC without dropping a game. That is cricketing acumen.

Maybe not yet but they all have the necessary tools and attributes to be great fast-bowlers: they are tall, they have pace, they can extract swing and bounce from the surface. You can laugh all you want but we all know that India would give an arm and a leg to have an express pacer like Nortje and a talented left-armer like Burger in their squad. Otherwise someone of Umran Mailk's caliber wouldn't have played this many international matches.

I never said that they didn't have a great tournament. But to categorize them as even fast-bowlers is honestly a bit of a stretch. There's a reason that WC win is regarded as the greatest WC upset ever. Because no one in their wildest dreams expected a bowling attack of dibbly dobblers to beat the mighty West Indies. I am perfectly well-aware of the example I chose, and it just reinforces the point that India has never been known for producing great fast-bowling talent.

You're right. It was good cricketing acumen from India. But coming back to the original point, that ICC tournament was won by the spinners, not the fast-bowlers. You can definitely give credit to certain pacers like Zaheer Khan, Munaf Patel, Bumrah for some of those 7 ICC tournament wins, but its revisionist history to say that India has been producing this seemingly great fast-bowling talent, or to attribute those 7 tournament wins to the fast-bowlers. Most of India's ICC tournament wins have come off the performances of the batters and the spinners. India has produced some good, even great fast-bowlers but there's a very good reason why Indians are so insecure about their fast-bowling and that's because they have a long and sordid history of mediocrity to contend with.

 

[Local.Dada]

And as flawed as Haris Rauf I don't see how any sane person can even compare a street-level bowler like Umran to him. Guess that shows how well you understand cricket.

Yeah, a team that won CT, WT20 , Was finalist in last 2 WTC, won last 2 series in Aus and even won a test this time, drew series in SA and England, was a WC finalist has trundlers and bowlers who can’t get into Pakistan club teams.

While a team that got knocked out in first round of WC, WT20, CT and borderline minnow in tests has club bowlers way better than Indian fast bowlers “mandir ka ghanta” type bowlers where every club cricketer from Nzl is looting full maza.

Where is the confidence coming from? I rest my case.

 

[saimayubera]

Maybe not yet but they all have the necessary tools and attributes to be great fast-bowlers: they are tall, they have pace, they can extract swing and bounce from the surface. You can laugh all you want but we all know that India would give an arm and a leg to have an express pacer like Nortje and a talented left-armer like Burger in their squad. Otherwise someone of Umran Mailk's caliber wouldn't have played this many international matches.

I never said that they didn't have a great tournament. But to categorize them as even fast-bowlers is honestly a bit of a stretch. There's a reason that WC win is regarded as the greatest WC upset ever. Because no one in their wildest dreams expected a bowling attack of dibbly dobblers to beat the mighty West Indies. I am perfectly well-aware of the example I chose, and it just reinforces the point that India has never been known for producing great fast-bowling talent.

You're right. It was good cricketing acumen from India. But coming back to the original point, that ICC tournament was won by the spinners, not the fast-bowlers. You can definitely give credit to certain pacers like Zaheer Khan, Munaf Patel, Bumrah for some of those 7 ICC tournament wins, but its revisionist history to say that India has been producing this seemingly great fast-bowling talent, or to attribute those 7 tournament wins to the fast-bowlers. Most of India's ICC tournament wins have come off the performances of the batters and the spinners. India has produced some good, even great fast-bowlers but there's a very good reason why Indians are so insecure about their fast-bowling and that's because they have a long and sordid history of mediocrity to contend with.

You are confusing India's strategy in home tests vs their ICC tournament record.

83 WC, 07 T20 WC were an all pacer show. 83 India didn't even have a primary spinner (Shastri was a part-timer in a few matches they played) and 07 they had one spinner Harbhajan and he was no 3 in the wickets list for India (5 of the top 6 were all pacers).

CT 02, WC 11, CT 13, T20 WC 24 I'd say was a tie with both contributing but 02 (Zaheer), 11 (Zaheer) and 24 (Bumrah, Arshdeep) all had pacers as the best bowler and 13 Bhuvi was no 2 contributing regularly with PP wickets.

25 is the first time India has won with such a spin heavy attack.

All these "tools and attributes" count for naught. The purpose of cricket is to win and Siraj has helped India win. And Siraj has plenty of tools himself. It's just your green-tainted worldview which does not let you see it.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yeah, a team that won CT, WT20 , Was finalist in last 2 WTC, won last 2 series in Aus and even won a test this time, drew series in SA and England, was a WC finalist has trundlers and bowlers who can’t get into Pakistan club teams.

While a team that got knocked out in first round of WC, WT20, CT and borderline minnow in tests has club bowlers way better than Indian fast bowlers “mandir ka ghanta” type bowlers where every club cricketer from Nzl is looting full maza.

Where is the confidence coming from? I rest my case.

You know the other person has nothing left to say when they start pulling fictitious arguments out of thin air. To be clear, I was talking about one pretty terrible bowler that the Indian selectors or team management wouldn't be caught dead playing in an ICC tournament. Also, whether you want to accept it or not, Pakistan has a far richer pipeline of fast-bowling talent than India.

You rest your case? Lol, this ain’t a courtroom, son. And if it were, you’d have been sentenced a long time ago. Funny you bring up ‘mandir ka ghanta,’ because judging by this rage typing, someone’s definitely rung your bell.

 

[Local.Dada]

You know the other person has nothing left to say when they start pulling fictitious arguments out of thin air. To be clear, I was talking about one pretty terrible bowler that the Indian selectors or team management wouldn't be caught dead playing in an ICC tournament. Also, whether you want to accept it or not, Pakistan has a far richer pipeline of fast-bowling talent than India.

You rest your case? Lol, this ain’t a courtroom, son. And if it were, you’d have been sentenced a long time ago. Funny you bring up ‘mandir ka ghanta,’ because judging by this rage typing, someone’s definitely rung your bell.

I neither see it on TV nor I see the results

however

Ok, no more “rage”

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

You are confusing India's strategy in home tests vs their ICC tournament record.

83 WC, 07 T20 WC were an all pacer show. 83 India didn't even have a primary spinner (Shastri was a part-timer in a few matches they played) and 07 they had one spinner Harbhajan and he was no 3 in the wickets list for India (5 of the top 6 were all pacers).

CT 02, WC 11, CT 13, T20 WC 24 I'd say was a tie with both contributing but 02 (Zaheer), 11 (Zaheer) and 24 (Bumrah, Arshdeep) all had pacers as the best bowler and 13 Bhuvi was no 2 contributing regularly with PP wickets.

25 is the first time India has won with such a spin heavy attack.

All these "tools and attributes" count for naught. The purpose of cricket is to win and Siraj has helped India win. And Siraj has plenty of tools himself. It's just your green-tainted worldview which does not let you see it.

There are plenty of great fast-bowlers throughout history who have won nothing. That doesn't take away from their greatness as fast-bowlers. If you are analyzing the quality of a fast-bowler then reducing their legacy to just trophies is a very reductive way of analysis.

Winning trophies is more about the composition of a team, how well-balanced it is and how effectively it can maximize its strengths while minimizing its weaknesses. India to their credit have been very good at that in ICC tournaments in this century. But the fast-bowlers have very rarely played a defining role in those victories. So to attribute it to them is not exactly correct in my view.

I could say the same about your blue-tinted worldview. At the end of the day, you have your opinion, I have mine—no point discussing this further as neither of us is bending.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I neither see it on TV nor I see the results

however

Ok uncle, no more “rage”

Well I guess that shows how well you understand cricket. I rest my case

 

[saimayubera]

There are plenty of great fast-bowlers throughout history who have won nothing. That doesn't take away from their greatness as fast-bowlers. If you are analyzing the quality of a fast-bowler then reducing their legacy to just trophies is a very reductive way of analysis.

Winning trophies is more about the composition of a team, how well-balanced it is and how effectively it can maximize its strengths while minimizing its weaknesses. India to their credit have been very good at that in ICC tournaments in this century. But the fast-bowlers have very rarely played a defining role in those victories. So to attribute it to them is not exactly correct in my view.

I could say the same about your blue-tinted worldview. At the end of the day, you have your opinion, I have mine—no point discussing this further as neither of us is bending.

Untrue.

83 final - 183 defended with all 10 wickets taken by pacers (India didn't have a spinner in the tournament)

07 final - Pacers defended 157 taking 9 wickets (1 was run out). A pacer Irfan was MoM

24 final - 30 off 30 defended by pacers when spinners were getting hit with pacers taking 7 of 8 wickets. A pacer Bumrah was MoT (should have been MoM as well tbh) and Arshdeep was highest wicket taker.

That's 3 World Cup finals where pacers did all the heavy lifting. Pakistan have won 2 WC finals (both formats combined) in their history.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Untrue.

83 final - 183 defended with all 10 wickets taken by pacers (India didn't have a spinner in the tournament)

07 final - Pacers defended 157 taking 9 wickets (1 was run out). A pacer Irfan was MoM

24 final - 30 off 30 defended by pacers when spinners were getting hit with pacers taking 7 of 8 wickets. A pacer Bumrah was MoT (should have been MoM as well tbh) and Arshdeep was highest wicket taker.

That's 3 World Cup finals where pacers did all the heavy lifting. Pakistan have won 2 WC finals (both formats combined) in their history.

James Faulkner delivered a match-winning spell in the 2015 WC final too. Where is he now? Where does he rank in the pantheon of great Australian bowlers?

 

[saimayubera]

James Faulkner delivered a match-winning spell in the 2015 WC final too. Where is he now? Where does he rank in the pantheon of great Australian bowlers?

Not talking about one person but the collective. Johnson and Starc bowled well too that day.

Australia have had collectively great fast bowlers.