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Wisden’s Test Team of the Year - Babar Azam and Shan Masood included

Are we allowed to do bhangra here? Or shall we wait for our resident Adnan Samis to start some rona dhona first? :sree
 
Amazing - particularly seeing two batsmen!

It is clear if Pakistan were playing tests at home, they'd have many many more wins and a far superior test, ODI and T20 record.

It is very very hard to maintain averages, rankings and indeed swagger when you are living out of suitcase, away from your own home majority of the year - and I am counting UAE very firmly in it.

Well done Babar and Shan!
 
Overall, what a mouth watering lineup! I’d love to see this team play together.
 
Signs of Pakistan becoming a powerhouse

All credit goes to Misbah

Humiliation for Misbah haters :misbah
 
Good to see Shani boi in there. Excellent work ethic and temperament paying dividends in Test cricket.
 
The incompetence of Wisden, how dare they even think about selecting not 1 but 2 Pakistani batsmen,0 Pakistanis in the IPL team of the year, that is the new pinnacle of cricket now anyway. :))

But in all seriousness, well done especially to Shan, his comeback is now starting to be justified.
 
But but India is the best and two Pakistanis have fluked it. Look at our record in Australia. How dare mediocre Shan makes it ahead of talented Aggarwal
 
Shan is a poor opener. The fact that he was one of leading openers in Test cricket in 2020 shows how bad this year was for openers in general.

This guy will not even make the third or fourth World XI, so who cares if he made the best XI of 2020.
 
That one innings by Shan will earn him a respectable living for the rest of his life. He will be Pakistan’s commentator for overseas tours to England and quite possibly end up on Sky Sport’s or BBC cricket’s payroll.

What a lucky guy!
 
Rana said:
That one innings by Shan will earn him a respectable living for the rest of his life. He will be Pakistan’s commentator for overseas tours to England and quite possibly end up on Sky Sport’s or BBC cricket’s payroll.

What a lucky guy!
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Shan would have a future in commentary with or without that innings.

Finding a Pakistani cricketer who is presentable and has good communication skills is extremely hard, so anyone like Shan who fits the bill will get plenty of opportunities.

Shan could very well prove to be the next Rameez and have a very long broadcasting career. He is also a mediocre cricketer like him.
 
Shan is a very hardworking and down to earth guy. I still remember when Pak used to prefer TTFs like Ahmed Shahzad and Hafeez over him. But he kept his head down, impeccable fitness and did something very rare for a Pakistani: worked on his game.

Sami Aslam and Imam should learn from him.

He is no Gavaskat but if we compare him to recent Pak openers, we should really appreciate this guy and his professionalism.
 
Mamoon said:
Shan is a poor opener. The fact that he was one of leading openers in Test cricket in 2020 shows how bad this year was for openers in general.

This guy will not even make the third or fourth World XI, so who cares if he made the best XI of 2020.
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Shan has been among the top 3 openers in the last 3 years. In that period his average of 42.5 is 4th best among all openers who have played atleast 15 innings. The onlys ones better are tom lathan, david warner and mayank agrwal. If u go even further you will see that in the last 3 years shans away average is better than both warner who averages 19 and agarwal who averages 31. Heck even latham averages 39 but shan who averages 36 playing against south africa,austrailia and england is one of the worst openers.
 
Mamoon said:
Shan would have a future in commentary with or without that innings.

Finding a Pakistani cricketer who is presentable and has good communication skills is extremely hard, so anyone like Shan who fits the bill will get plenty of opportunities.

Shan could very well prove to be the next Rameez and have a very long broadcasting career. He is also a mediocre cricketer like him.
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Yes but you still have to do something to be respected for if you are paired up with other commentators that may have been world class players or ATGs. That innings at Old Trafford was an ATG innings no matter how poor Shan will end up looking overall as an opener once he retires. It was enough for him to sit with dignity and respect with James Anderson during the T20 series, even though you will find hundreds of openers such as Shan inside Anderson’s pocket.
 
WhenSultansBowled said:
Sharma has all the talent in the world but for some mysterious reason couldn't be a decent test opener.

Kohli had a bad year. It's understandable.

Glad to see they didn't include the unchecked Indian chucker :)
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If you are talking about Ashwin, then no he is not a chucker.
 
MHN1293 said:
Shan has been among the top 3 openers in the last 3 years. In that period his average of 42.5 is 4th best among all openers who have played atleast 15 innings. The onlys ones better are tom lathan, david warner and mayank agrwal. If u go even further you will see that in the last 3 years shans away average is better than both warner who averages 19 and agarwal who averages 31. Heck even latham averages 39 but shan who averages 36 playing against south africa,austrailia and england is one of the worst openers.
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Shan’s home average is also boosted by performing against poor attacks of Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. Unless he performs against all the top sides at home like Warner does, what is the point of this comparison? There are and will be a dozen better openers than Masood.

You know things are bad in Pakistan when someone as mediocre as Masood is your first-choice opener in Test cricket. He will never be capable of taking his average beyond 35.

Pakistan should invest in Imam who has a better chance of averaging 40-41 in Test cricket in the long-term.
 
Rana said:
Yes but you still have to do something to be respected for if you are paired up with other commentators that may have been world class players or ATGs. That innings at Old Trafford was an ATG innings no matter how poor Shan will end up looking overall as an opener once he retires. It was enough for him to sit with dignity and respect with James Anderson during the T20 series, even though you will find hundreds of openers such as Shan inside Anderson’s pocket.
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No you don’t. Any Pakistani cricket who can speak excellent English will get chances in commentary regardless of their performance on the pitch.
 
Mamoon said:
No you don’t. Any Pakistani cricket who can speak excellent English will get chances in commentary regardless of their performance on the pitch.
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Not in the intellectual circles. No chance.
 
Corridor of Uncertainty said:
Amazing - particularly seeing two batsmen!

It is clear if Pakistan were playing tests at home, they'd have many many more wins and a far superior test, ODI and T20 record.

It is very very hard to maintain averages, rankings and indeed swagger when you are living out of suitcase, away from your own home majority of the year - and I am counting UAE very firmly in it.

Well done Babar and Shan!
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Agree. Pak could have won more test with ability to tailor pitches to their strengths, motivational crowd, and calm mind living home.
 
Mamoon said:
Shan’s home average is also boosted by performing against poor attacks of Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. Unless he performs against all the top sides at home like Warner does, what is the point of this comparison? There are and will be a dozen better openers than Masood.

You know things are bad in Pakistan when someone as mediocre as Masood is your first-choice opener in Test cricket. He will never be capable of taking his average beyond 35.

Pakistan should invest in Imam who has a better chance of averaging 40-41 in Test cricket in the long-term.
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Do you know things are bad at ICC as well when they select Shan as an opener?
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

Much deserved humble pie for you after all the hater filled posts you've aimed towards Shan Masood.
 
Very very happy for Shan and Babar. That knock by Shan in the first Test against England was nothing short of amazing, I wish we’d done our research on Woakes and won the series 1-0, a lot more appreciation would go towards that 156.

Overall, our team looks very solid whenever these two are in the picture, I hope we can maintain this upward trajectory and develop a few more strong batsmen. We already have a promising pool coming through the domestic ranks, solid strokemakers with good technique who can support Babar and Shan both home and away.

When’s the last time, if ever, we’ve had two batsmen in the Wisden Test XI?

Super happy for New Zealand too, three make it to the XI and one is captain. Williamson has been absolutely surreal, and Kyle Jamieson has done well to be included at this stage of his career.

Babar has averaged 100 during this time period, Labuschagne 91, and Broad has taken 40 wickets @15!
 
Shan's quality is such that he is above any other opener this year. He can only score against whichever opposition is in front of him. Can't wave his bat about thinking its Australia he is playing when they are not touring.

Other teams have been padding their stats and going up in rankings playing at home for 10 years while Pakistanis have been living out of a suitcase. Two quarter seasons at home and we can see how much an advantage home conditions are.

You bring on Australia, India and England to Pakistan and it is clear Pakistan will do much better there than they did in UAE.

All this calls for massive celebration.

Everything else is just wrist slitting or jealousy.
 
Corridor of Uncertainty said:
Shan's quality is such that he is above any other opener this year. He can only score against whichever opposition is in front of him. Can't wave his bat about thinking its Australia he is playing when they are not touring.

Other teams have been padding their stats and going up in rankings playing at home for 10 years while Pakistanis have been living out of a suitcase. Two quarter seasons at home and we can see how much an advantage home conditions are.

You bring on Australia, India and England to Pakistan and it is clear Pakistan will do much better there than they did in UAE.

All this calls for massive celebration.

Everything else is just wrist slitting or jealousy.
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In Pakistan, we recently lost an ODI to Zimbabwe and also got whitewashed by Sri Lanka C in T20I series.

Nothing will change in terms of results if we play the likes of India, England and Australia in Pakistan. It would be the same situation as in UAE where they kept beating us in ODIs in all the time.

Anyone who thinks not playing in Pakistan hampered our results is in denial. The performances against Zimbabwe and Sri Lanka in the last year is sufficient proof.
 
topspin said:
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

Much deserved humble pie for you after all the hater filled posts you've aimed towards Shan Masood.
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What humble pie? Shan is an average player. His performance in the other 5 innings after the fluke hundred showed his worth.

He is the perfect opener to ensure that Pakistan never breaks into the top 4 rankings.
 
PakPremi said:
Do you know things are bad at ICC as well when they select Shan as an opener?
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It was a slow year for Test cricket because of COVID. Apart from England, other teams didn’t play much.

There are far better openers than Shan in every top team. He is, was and always will be a mediocre opener.
 
Weird things continue to happen in 2020.

Koi baat nhi....

Things will be back to usual next year when int'l cricket returns to normalcy and we'll see the gladiators come back into the arena.

:vk :smith :root :cummins
 
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Mamoon said:
In Pakistan, we recently lost an ODI to Zimbabwe and also got whitewashed by Sri Lanka C in T20I series.

Nothing will change in terms of results if we play the likes of India, England and Australia in Pakistan. It would be the same situation as in UAE where they kept beating us in ODIs in all the time.

Anyone who thinks not playing in Pakistan hampered our results is in denial. The performances against Zimbabwe and Sri Lanka in the last year is sufficient proof.
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Not a strong argument when one has to cherry pick results.

If you know Pakistan history, it is clear that Pakistan always has cold days - they have lost matches, even series, to weaker opposition throughout their history against the run of play. They lost matches to Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka, New Zealand and England at home when those teams were at their weakest and Pakistan had the likes of Imran, Miandad, Akram, Waqar, Anwar, Inzamam, Zaheer and all the best talent in the world at their disposal.

And yet..Pakistan's home record is formidable - as it is for all good teams.

"Imagine what could happen if Australia tours"... is rooted in speculation and therefore not an argument. One could say "imagine what could happen if Warner, Smith etc were playing when India last toured" - but that's speculation. Scoreboard shows Indian wins. That's all that matters.
 
2020 has been extremely poor in terms of everything including cricket, that reflects in this team. If this were a real team they would give tough fight to Pak for the 7th position.
 
The highest score by any indian batsman in the test series vs newzealand was 57. Alzarri joseph of all people scored an 80 odd the other day for context.
It reflects in the team picked. Can't pick a team for optics.
 
Hyperion66 said:
2020 has been extremely poor in terms of everything including cricket, that reflects in this team. If this were a real team they would give tough fight to Pak for the 7th position.
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Indeed poor, including certain performances last year in New Zealand. No need to downplay everything.

Babar and Shan performed better in Australia and England than any Indian did in that series - if I remember correctly the highest score in that series across four innings by any Indian was 58 by Prithvi Shaw, the same person many Indians don’t want playing against Australia.

Give credit where due - both of them had a fantastic year.
 
Corridor of Uncertainty said:
Not a strong argument when one has to cherry pick results.

If you know Pakistan history, it is clear that Pakistan always has cold days - they have lost matches, even series, to weaker opposition throughout their history against the run of play. They lost matches to Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka, New Zealand and England at home when those teams were at their weakest and Pakistan had the likes of Imran, Miandad, Akram, Waqar, Anwar, Inzamam, Zaheer and all the best talent in the world at their disposal.

And yet..Pakistan's home record is formidable - as it is for all good teams.

"Imagine what could happen if Australia tours"... is rooted in speculation and therefore not an argument. One could say "imagine what could happen if Warner, Smith etc were playing when India last toured" - but that's speculation. Scoreboard shows Indian wins. That's all that matters.
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What cherry picking? I am not picking any bad cherries, these are all the cherries we have.

We started playing at home and we have also started losing at home. Do you not see the problem with that?

Pakistan’s history has nothing to do with what Pakistan is today. Historically, Pakistan have had some brilliant individuals but team cohesion was a problem.

Today, apart Babar and to and extent Shaheen, the team is generally devoid of quality. We are just not good enough anymore and romanticizing about the past players will not change a thing.

How many Pakistani players today make the world XI across formats?

Pakistan is just an average team today no matter how much we romanticize our situation and make excuses for our failures.

Teams like England and Australia would continue to back themselves to beat us in ODIs and T20Is in Pakistan with their full squads, and that would probably happen anyway.
 
Mamoon said:
Shan’s home average is also boosted by performing against poor attacks of Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. Unless he performs against all the top sides at home like Warner does, what is the point of this comparison? There are and will be a dozen better openers than Masood.

You know things are bad in Pakistan when someone as mediocre as Masood is your first-choice opener in Test cricket. He will never be capable of taking his average beyond 35.

Pakistan should invest in Imam who has a better chance of averaging 40-41 in Test cricket in the long-term.
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Things are so bad that an opener like Shan got selected into the Wisden team of the year, WISDEN, not some uneducated XI put together by armchair critics who have no idea what they are even talking about most of the time :))
 
Thunderbolt14 said:
Indeed poor, including certain performances last year in New Zealand. No need to downplay everything.

Babar and Shan performed better in Australia and England than any Indian did in that series - if I remember correctly the highest score in that series across four innings by any Indian was 58 by Prithvi Shaw, the same person many Indians don’t want playing against Australia.

Give credit where due - both of them had a fantastic year.
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Not sure why you are bringing in NZ series here, I was talking about the poor overall year. Not even blaming Wisden, they had no choice, had to make do with what they got. You really think if it were a normal year the likes of Dom Sibley, Masood, Broad or Southee would still make into this team? No doubts about Babar's inclusion whatsoever.
 
Mamoon said:
What cherry picking? I am not picking any bad cherries, these are all the cherries we have.

We started playing at home and we have also started losing at home. Do you not see the problem with that?

Pakistan’s history has nothing to do with what Pakistan is today. Historically, Pakistan have had some brilliant individuals but team cohesion was a problem.

Today, apart Babar and to and extent Shaheen, the team is generally devoid of quality. We are just not good enough anymore and romanticizing about the past players will not change a thing.

How many Pakistani players today make the world XI across formats?

Pakistan is just an average team today no matter how much we romanticize our situation and make excuses for our failures.

Teams like England and Australia would continue to back themselves to beat us in ODIs and T20Is in Pakistan with their full squads, and that would probably happen anyway.
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er...two of our players just made World Eleven :) Babar and maybe Shaheen will make World Eleven across all formats. That's a good start. Need one or two more and there is light at the end of the tunnel.

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] no one is arguing Pakistan is top 3. And yes Australia, India will start as favorites against Pakistan in all formats.

But so what?

It's like fans of Leicester. Good team, not great - top 10 in the league. But they got couple of world class players, some players playing out of their skins, some results turned in their favor, some other teams lost steam midway, some had injuries - and lo and behold, they were champions. Even if we don't consider Pakistan Leicester but Burnley, their fans will still cheer and love their team and hope chips fall their way.

A fan of a middling team has a troubled life. He or she lives in pain. There is always more bad results than good. There are nights ending in tears. They need luck all the time. They have one or two talismans they hold on to like gods.

This is how Tendulkar was to India at one point.

But the fan has love of his/her team and a cause to sustain. It makes all the pain worth it.

No one in Pakistan, and particularly PP, is making Pakistan favorites at all. So I don't see your point at all.

Everyone is putting if's and but's and best case scenarios so Pakistan wins. This is the lot of the fan. And sometimes they do turn out to be right.

This thread was about Shan being in Wisden's XI. A positive thing. A thing for fans of Pakistan to rejoice. And to rub the noses of their rivals in. That's what fans do.

I can clearly tell what you are NOT a fan of.

I am just struggling to know what you are a fan of? What makes you jump up in glee?
 
Seriously guys stop with the Shan Masood hate already.

I was one of his biggest critics but you have to admit the guy has improved leaps and bounds ever since he returned to the side in South Africa. He has scored tough runs in South Africa, Australia, England and followed them with hundreds at home.

Instead of having sky-high, unrealistic expectations from a Pakistani opener, we should appreciate how far he has come and hope he continues to improve.

In the past we have had openers who have struggled to get to double figures in SENA. Shan has played atleast one credible knock in S E and A. And his hundred in England should have been a match-winning knock.
 
Corridor of Uncertainty said:
er...two of our players just made World Eleven :) Babar and maybe Shaheen will make World Eleven across all formats. That's a good start. Need one or two more and there is light at the end of the tunnel.

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] no one is arguing Pakistan is top 3. And yes Australia, India will start as favorites against Pakistan in all formats.

But so what?

It's like fans of Leicester. Good team, not great - top 10 in the league. But they got couple of world class players, some players playing out of their skins, some results turned in their favor, some other teams lost steam midway, some had injuries - and lo and behold, they were champions. Even if we don't consider Pakistan Leicester but Burnley, their fans will still cheer and love their team and hope chips fall their way.

A fan of a middling team has a troubled life. He or she lives in pain. There is always more bad results than good. There are nights ending in tears. They need luck all the time. They have one or two talismans they hold on to like gods.

This is how Tendulkar was to India at one point.

But the fan has love of his/her team and a cause to sustain. It makes all the pain worth it.

No one in Pakistan, and particularly PP, is making Pakistan favorites at all. So I don't see your point at all.

Everyone is putting if's and but's and best case scenarios so Pakistan wins. This is the lot of the fan. And sometimes they do turn out to be right.

This thread was about Shan being in Wisden's XI. A positive thing. A thing for fans of Pakistan to rejoice. And to rub the noses of their rivals in. That's what fans do.

I can clearly tell what you are NOT a fan of.

I am just struggling to know what you are a fan of? What makes you jump up in glee?
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Great post. Some posters here have ridiculously high expectations. They compare us to India, Australia as if we have the same abundance of cash to invest in cricket.

But one thing that I think you forgot to mention is that when a strong team wins the fans expect it, and in a sense, the wins are taken for granted, and perhaps not valued as much.

But when a middling team wins, especially against a stronger team, the feeling is euphoric. As a Pakistan fan, I've learned to cherish the big wins because of how few and far between they tend to be.
 
Hyperion66 said:
Not sure why you are bringing in NZ series here, I was talking about the poor overall year. Not even blaming Wisden, they had no choice, had to make do with what they got. You really think if it were a normal year the likes of Dom Sibley, Masood, Broad or Southee would still make into this team? No doubts about Babar's inclusion whatsoever.
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Apologies for misinterpreting in that case! I think it’s for granted that it hasn’t been a normal year. Still, in the few series that we have indeed had, these guys performed like no tomorrow - so credit where it’s due.
 
Thunderbolt14 said:
Apologies for misinterpreting in that case! I think it’s for granted that it hasn’t been a normal year. Still, in the few series that we have indeed had, these guys performed like no tomorrow - so credit where it’s due.
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Hey no need to apologies man, of course the guys listed performed their hearts out but most definitely quite a few of them would not find a place in the list if it were a regular year. Not taking anything away from them, not denying their hard earned acclaim, not questioning their inclusion for this year.
 
Why?

Shan had one very good innings in England but was dropped several times during that. Babar continued to underwhelm in tests with zero daddy hundreds.

If you're doing bhangra over this list then you are accepting mediocrity.
 
Corridor of Uncertainty said:
er...two of our players just made World Eleven :) Babar and maybe Shaheen will make World Eleven across all formats. That's a good start. Need one or two more and there is light at the end of the tunnel.

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] no one is arguing Pakistan is top 3. And yes Australia, India will start as favorites against Pakistan in all formats.

But so what?

It's like fans of Leicester. Good team, not great - top 10 in the league. But they got couple of world class players, some players playing out of their skins, some results turned in their favor, some other teams lost steam midway, some had injuries - and lo and behold, they were champions. Even if we don't consider Pakistan Leicester but Burnley, their fans will still cheer and love their team and hope chips fall their way.

A fan of a middling team has a troubled life. He or she lives in pain. There is always more bad results than good. There are nights ending in tears. They need luck all the time. They have one or two talismans they hold on to like gods.

This is how Tendulkar was to India at one point.

But the fan has love of his/her team and a cause to sustain. It makes all the pain worth it.

No one in Pakistan, and particularly PP, is making Pakistan favorites at all. So I don't see your point at all.

Everyone is putting if's and but's and best case scenarios so Pakistan wins. This is the lot of the fan. And sometimes they do turn out to be right.

This thread was about Shan being in Wisden's XI. A positive thing. A thing for fans of Pakistan to rejoice. And to rub the noses of their rivals in. That's what fans do.

I can clearly tell what you are NOT a fan of.

I am just struggling to know what you are a fan of? What makes you jump up in glee?
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All of that is fine, but that doesn’t mean that we should make up excuses and live in denial for our team’s poor performances. Blaming UAE for our shocking bilateral record in LOIs against the top sides doesn’t address the core problems in the team and doesn’t provide a way forward for the future.

As things stand, Pakistan will get pasted by India, England, Australia etc. in Pakistan in ODIs and T20Is in bilateral cricket regardless of the venue.
 
Mamoon said:
All of that is fine, but that doesn’t mean that we should make up excuses and live in denial for our team’s poor performances. Blaming UAE for our shocking bilateral record in LOIs against the top sides doesn’t address the core problems in the team and doesn’t provide a way forward for the future.

As things stand, Pakistan will get pasted by India, England, Australia etc. in Pakistan in ODIs and T20Is in bilateral cricket regardless of the venue.
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You still didn't answer my question: Which team are you a fan of? The one that makes you jump up with joy when they win.
 
Corridor of Uncertainty said:
You still didn't answer my question: Which team are you a fan of? The one that makes you jump up with joy when they win.
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I am (unfortunately) a fan of Pakistan but if I wasn’t, Pakistan would be the last team that I would care for because Pakistan’s culture of glorifying inconsistency and romanticizing it as unpredictability greatly frustrates me. I don’t find anything likable about Pakistan cricket.

I don’t want to be a fan of a team where I have to jump with joy when they win. I want to be fan of a team that wins so consistently that it winning should become a norm rather than a cause for excitement.

Different strokes for different blokes I guess. You seem to enjoy the emotions of being a Pakistan cricket fan and you don’t mind the inconsistency and general mediocrity because it makes the odd win against the top sides more enjoyable.

However, that doesn’t work for me.
 
Mamoon said:
All of that is fine, but that doesn’t mean that we should make up excuses and live in denial for our team’s poor performances. Blaming UAE for our shocking bilateral record in LOIs against the top sides doesn’t address the core problems in the team and doesn’t provide a way forward for the future.

As things stand, Pakistan will get pasted by India, England, Australia etc. in Pakistan in ODIs and T20Is in bilateral cricket regardless of the venue.
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pakistan actually have a much much better record of winning tests and odi in u.a.e than in pakistan which is really weird.
Must be all those sharjah games vs weak india of 90s, lanka lol.

I did some stat search a while back. india lost 16 of their 21 games in sharjah. Rest were fairly even.
 
Shan continues to build the narrative of an 'accomplished Test opener' without actually being one.

2/3 of his centuries came against the extremely weak BD and SL attacks on the flattest tracks, the third was arguably the flukiest century of the team.

He scored 23 runs in the last 4 innings in England
 
Mamoon said:
I am (unfortunately) a fan of Pakistan but if I wasn’t, Pakistan would be the last team that I would care for because Pakistan’s culture of glorifying inconsistency and romanticizing it as unpredictability greatly frustrates me. I don’t find anything likable about Pakistan cricket.

I don’t want to be a fan of a team where I have to jump with joy when they win. I want to be fan of a team that wins so consistently that it winning should become a norm rather than a cause for excitement.

Different strokes for different blokes I guess. You seem to enjoy the emotions of being a Pakistan cricket fan and you don’t mind the inconsistency and general mediocrity because it makes the odd win against the top sides more enjoyable.

However, that doesn’t work for me.
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Good. Thank you. Now I know where you stand and it helps me to know you are a fellow Pakistan fan :) Woohoo.

Contrary to what you believe, I find Pakistan's inconsistencies maddening. I wish we were dominant and a cert for world titles. I am also very vocal on the faults and flaws of the system and the players. I will also venture to say most PP'ers hate Pakistan losing and are angry particularly when the team shows obvious flaws in selection, skills and commitment.

Where I differ from you is that I'd support my team, frustrating as it is, at all times. It's not romanticism, it is the definition of a fan.

I just don't get how a fan can only support a team only if it dominates. That's a strange logic. You will even eliminate Ferrari, Man United, Lakers and Yankees with that logic.
 
Corridor of Uncertainty said:
Good. Thank you. Now I know where you stand and it helps me to know you are a fellow Pakistan fan :) Woohoo.

Contrary to what you believe, I find Pakistan's inconsistencies maddening. I wish we were dominant and a cert for world titles. I am also very vocal on the faults and flaws of the system and the players. I will also venture to say most PP'ers hate Pakistan losing and are angry particularly when the team shows obvious flaws in selection, skills and commitment.

Where I differ from you is that I'd support my team, frustrating as it is, at all times. It's not romanticism, it is the definition of a fan.

I just don't get how a fan can only support a team only if it dominates. That's a strange logic. You will even eliminate Ferrari, Man United, Lakers and Yankees with that logic.
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Criticizing the team and not having hopes for the future doesn’t mean you don’t support the team.
 
Shan as captain, other than that, a v powerful squad.
 
coy0607 said:
Shan continues to build the narrative of an 'accomplished Test opener' without actually being one.

2/3 of his centuries came against the extremely weak BD and SL attacks on the flattest tracks, the third was arguably the flukiest century of the team.

He scored 23 runs in the last 4 innings in England
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So who else is there ?

I admit being greatly skeptical when Shan returned in 2018 but he played off the backfoot better than most PAK openers I've seen in Australia and South Africa. He's deserved an extended run.
 
tyron_woodley said:
pakistan actually have a much much better record of winning tests and odi in u.a.e than in pakistan which is really weird.
Must be all those sharjah games vs weak india of 90s, lanka lol.

I did some stat search a while back. india lost 16 of their 21 games in sharjah. Rest were fairly even.
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Where are you getting you information from? Pakistan actually has the best W/L ratio among all teams in test cricket and 3rd best W/L ratio in ODI cricket at home.
 
Congratulations to all players who made it. But particularly Shan Masood. After all the criticism he's received to actually work hard and persevere to get back in to the test team is splendid.
 
Well done to shan masood and babar excellent stuff.no Indian in the side is a great sign
 
Heisenberg111 said:
Where are you getting you information from? Pakistan actually has the best W/L ratio among all teams in test cricket and 3rd best W/L ratio in ODI cricket at home.
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Is that true? In tests too. Well tbf I counted from post 90s era. Pakistan played a lot more in u.a.e at the time.
 
coy0607 said:
Shan continues to build the narrative of an 'accomplished Test opener' without actually being one.

2/3 of his centuries came against the extremely weak BD and SL attacks on the flattest tracks, the third was arguably the flukiest century of the team.

He scored 23 runs in the last 4 innings in England
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He is 31 years and averages 31 after 23 matches. People talk him up as if he is the second coming of Cook who is all set to score 10,000 runs and get 30+ hundreds.

He is as average as it gets. He will never take his average beyond 35 unless he plays 10-15 consecutive Tests against minnow attacks.

Sadly the hype he gets reflects the falling standards of Pakistan cricket.

This “he is the best we have got” nonsense sounds weird. If Pakistan doesn’t have an opener who can average above 31 after 23 matches, we are in deeper trouble than even I think.
 
Mamoon said:
He is 31 years and averages 31 after 23 matches. People talk him up as if he is the second coming of Cook who is all set to score 10,000 runs and get 30+ hundreds.

He is as average as it gets. He will never take his average beyond 35 unless he plays 10-15 consecutive Tests against minnow attacks.

Sadly the hype he gets reflects the falling standards of Pakistan cricket.

This “he is the best we have got” nonsense sounds weird. If Pakistan doesn’t have an opener who can average above 31 after 23 matches, we are in deeper trouble than even I think.
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Averages 42 since his comeback in 2018 - 37 away including tough tours of Australia, South Africa and England.

It is relevant to ask for alternatives - Imam failed miserably even in UAE Tests, chickenhearted Sami Aslam threw his dummy out the pram and ran to the States, Imran Butt had one good season on dead tracks while youngsters like Haider Ali and Abdullah Shafiq are still learning their craft.
 
Mamoon said:
What humble pie? Shan is an average player. His performance in the other 5 innings after the fluke hundred showed his worth.

He is the perfect opener to ensure that Pakistan never breaks into the top 4 rankings.
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Even after making the Wisden test XI for the year, you can’t give your anti-Shan Masood posts a rest let alone give him some credit.

Your views on him reminds me of how Donald Trump has still yet to concede defeat to Joe Biden.
 
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shamaan said:
Well done to shan masood and babar excellent stuff.no Indian in the side is a great sign
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Don't be too happy. You should be very thankful to both Bangladesh and srilanka for helping them get into this team. Shan somehow miraculously fluked a good performance in Eng and normalcy returned in the rest of his innings. Babar was in the form of his life against BD and SL at home and averaged like 150+ but did zilch in Eng for all his overhyping.
 
Congratulations to them both. However I can see the openers falling cheaply here - as much as I appreciate Shan's 150, he's still not consistent or dependable. Sibley's technique also leaves a lot to be desired. A decent opposition could dry him up for runs because he just can't play on half the wicket as he never learnt to hold a bat properly!
 
Usman said:
Congratulations to them both. However I can see the openers falling cheaply here - as much as I appreciate Shan's 150, he's still not consistent or dependable. Sibley's technique also leaves a lot to be desired. A decent opposition could dry him up for runs because he just can't play on half the wicket as he never learnt to hold a bat properly!
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Most wouldn’t complain if Warner was opener though, even despite Warner’s struggles in England last summer. Everyone would be praising Mayank Agarwal if he made the list, despite failing in New Zealand. Truth is, there aren’t many openers in the world who do well away from home - if you check the stats, Shan’s average in the last three years is actually one of the best.
 
Markhor said:
So who else is there ?

I admit being greatly skeptical when Shan returned in 2018 but he played off the backfoot better than most PAK openers I've seen in Australia and South Africa. He's deserved an extended run.
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I actually agree with you. He is an okay opener, and better than anyone else who has opened for Pakistan in the last few years. He definitely shouldn't be dropped.

But we should not hail him as some sort of legend either.
He may be the best we have, but he's below average and there's a false narrative that Shan is elite
 
Markhor said:
Averages 42 since his comeback in 2018 - 37 away including tough tours of Australia, South Africa and England.

It is relevant to ask for alternatives - Imam failed miserably even in UAE Tests, chickenhearted Sami Aslam threw his dummy out the pram and ran to the States, Imran Butt had one good season on dead tracks while youngsters like Haider Ali and Abdullah Shafiq are still learning their craft.
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It is perfectly reasonable to state that he is the best we have got at the moment (which is an illustration of how dreadful we are at the moment) while also acknowledging the fact that he is mediocre.

In fact, his average of 42 since 2018 and that away average of 37 reinforces the assessment that he is an ordinary opener.

This is supposed to be his purple patch and the way people have been raving about his “improvement”, you would think that he has been averaging 60+ over the last 2 years.

That is what quality batsmen perform like when they are in a purple patch over a period of a year or two.

The fact that he is only averaging 42 in his purple patch and people are highlighting his away average of 37 shows how limited his potential his and how low the bar he set previously.
 
topspin said:
Even after making the Wisden test XI for the year, you can’t give your anti-Shan Masood posts a rest let alone give him some credit.

Your views on him reminds me of how Donald Trump has still yet to concede defeat to Joe Biden.
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The only reason he made this list is because it was a slow year for Test cricket and he was a deaf king among blind men out there. India only played 2 Tests this year and the likes of Warner only played a single Test.

Same reason why Sibley made the list as well, and he is relatively better but not among the best openers either.

There are about a dozen better openers than Masood around the world and there are probably a dozen better than him in domestic cricket in these countries. He is that mediocre.

As I said in my previous post, that fact that people cannot stop raving after his performance since 2018, where he is only averaging 42 in his so-called purple patch, shows how limited his potential is and how low the bar he as set for himself.

He will never get his career average to 40+ unless he only plays against weak attacks like Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

He doesn’t have the technique or the ability to perform consistently against the quality attacks. His typical series against a good attack will continue to look like this:

0, 0, 70 or a 100+, 12, 32, 5

He is basically an opener who can get about one meaningful score per series against a quality attack and only if he assisted with dropped catches.

His fans then praise his guts and character and hard work only for him to produce single digit scores in the other innings.

Again - to say that he is the best option we have got at the moment because Pakistan cricket has reached the deepest pits of mediocrity is fair enough, however, that doesn’t mean that we should make him look like a quality opener because he is clearly not.
 
Mamoon said:
It was a slow year for Test cricket because of COVID. Apart from England, other teams didn’t play much.

There are far better openers than Shan in every top team. He is, was and always will be a mediocre opener.
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Even zimbabwe and bangladesh have better openers than 31 averaging Shan
 
Mamoon said:
The only reason he made this list is because it was a slow year for Test cricket and he was a deaf king among blind men out there. India only played 2 Tests this year and the likes of Warner only played a single Test.

Same reason why Sibley made the list as well, and he is relatively better but not among the best openers either.

There are about a dozen better openers than Masood around the world and there are probably a dozen better than him in domestic cricket in these countries. He is that mediocre.

As I said in my previous post, that fact that people cannot stop raving after his performance since 2018, where he is only averaging 42 in his so-called purple patch, shows how limited his potential is and how low the bar he as set for himself.

He will never get his career average to 40+ unless he only plays against weak attacks like Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

He doesn’t have the technique or the ability to perform consistently against the quality attacks. His typical series against a good attack will continue to look like this:

0, 0, 70 or a 100+, 12, 32, 5

He is basically an opener who can get about one meaningful score per series against a quality attack and only if he assisted with dropped catches.

His fans then praise his guts and character and hard work only for him to produce single digit scores in the other innings.

Again - to say that he is the best option we have got at the moment because Pakistan cricket has reached the deepest pits of mediocrity is fair enough, however, that doesn’t mean that we should make him look like a quality opener because he is clearly not.
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No one has ever claimed he's a world beater but he is Pakistan's best test opener. For an ordinary side like Pakistan he's more than good enough.

Your beloved Imam and Sami Aslam are not even worthy of mention but you never seem to shy away from advocating these two favourites of yours.

Shan Masood might be able to finish his test career with an average 40 if he keeps working hard. Unlike other Pakistani players his age is actually legit.
 
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The lone Ranger said:
Don't be too happy. You should be very thankful to both Bangladesh and srilanka for helping them get into this team. Shan somehow miraculously fluked a good performance in Eng and normalcy returned in the rest of his innings. Babar was in the form of his life against BD and SL at home and averaged like 150+ but did zilch in Eng for all his overhyping.
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I hope he keeps fluking the 150 scores no problem.you obviously havent seen shan stats in last 3 years
 
topspin said:
No one has ever claimed he's a world beater but he is Pakistan's best test opener. For an ordinary side like Pakistan he's more than good enough.

Your beloved Imam and Sami Aslam are not even worthy of mention but you never seem to shy away from advocating these two favourites of yours.

Shan Masood might be able to finish his test career with an average 40 if he keeps working hard. Unlike other Pakistani players his age is actually legit.
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As I said in my previous post, the idea that he is our least terrible opener at the moment because we are a dreadful side has some merit and that is fair enough.

However, then there is no need to flex his inclusion in the Wisden team because we all know that there are about a dozen better openers than him and he wouldn’t have been anywhere near this team if it was a normal, regular year of Test cricket.

Shan does not have the talent to average 40+ in Test cricket. His very limited talent plus hard work has helped him reach this level, but anything beyond this is not within his capacity.

Talent is an overused word in Pakistan but to perform at the highest level in any sport, hard work alone doesn’t cut it.

Shan will forever be a 30-35 averaging opener and if Pakistan cannot improve on that, they need to accept that there is no talent in the country and they will not be able to become a high ranked team in the near future.
 
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