Would Waqar Younis have had a longer peak had he managed his workload better?

[Savak]

I believe he played in almost each and every county season from 1990 upto 1998 and played in almost every odi series, test series, sharjah cup and other various tournaments during that time period.

It is no secret that his official dob i.e. 1971 and age is not correct, it was in 1997 when he was officially 26-27 when i first noticed and observed that his speed was not the same anymore and that he would slow down significantly in his second and third spell onwards and had now lost his abilities to get wickets with the older ball bowling at 129-132 km/hr with the old ball in later spells.

Pacers today atleast the tear away ones like Steyn, Starc are able to maintain their speeds even well into their 30's but these guys have also benefited with better workload management from their respective boards where they are not played in each and every ODI series, T-20 series and even rested from unimportant test matches and both don't play county cricket.

I wonder if Waqar did not play every county season from 1990 to 1998, every series for Pakistan, if he had adopted to modern nutrition, training methods, would he have had a longer peak for Pakistan where lets say he played upto 2006-07 and had started losing real pace from 2003 onwards as oppossed to 1997 when he was officially 26-27 years old. Could his back injuries have been avoided with modern medical knowledge, training methods?

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Isn't that obvious? He burnt himself out thinking "the more you bowl the stronger you get." Can't blame him though. He didn't know any better.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Just on their 1992 tour alone, they played 12 practice matches before the actual series. That's ridiculous.

 

[Savak]

Isn't that obvious? He burnt himself out thinking "the more you bowl the stronger you get." Can't blame him though. He didn't know any better.

Perhaps the lack of money in Cricket might have been a factor. Back then County Cricket was what IPL is to international cricketers today.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I believe he played in almost each and every county season from 1990 upto 1998 and played in almost every odi series, test series, sharjah cup and other various tournaments during that time period.

It is no secret that his official dob i.e. 1971 and age is not correct, it was in 1997 when he was officially 26-27 when i first noticed and observed that his speed was not the same anymore and that he would slow down significantly in his second and third spell onwards and had now lost his abilities to get wickets with the older ball bowling at 129-132 km/hr with the old ball in later spells.

Pacers today atleast the tear away ones like Steyn, Starc are able to maintain their speeds even well into their 30's but these guys have also benefited with better workload management from their respective boards where they are not played in each and every ODI series, T-20 series and even rested from unimportant test matches and both don't play county cricket.

I wonder if Waqar did not play every county season from 1990 to 1998, every series for Pakistan, if he had adopted to modern nutrition, training methods, would he have had a longer peak for Pakistan where lets say he played upto 2006-07 and had started losing real pace from 2003 onwards as oppossed to 1997 when he was officially 26-27 years old. Could his back injuries have been avoided with modern medical knowledge, training methods?

Starc is only 27 bro.

 

[waleed88]

I believe he played in almost each and every county season from 1990 upto 1998 and played in almost every odi series, test series, sharjah cup and other various tournaments during that time period.

It is no secret that his official dob i.e. 1971 and age is not correct, it was in 1997 when he was officially 26-27 when i first noticed and observed that his speed was not the same anymore and that he would slow down significantly in his second and third spell onwards and had now lost his abilities to get wickets with the older ball bowling at 129-132 km/hr with the old ball in later spells.

Pacers today atleast the tear away ones like Steyn, Starc are able to maintain their speeds even well into their 30's but these guys have also benefited with better workload management from their respective boards where they are not played in each and every ODI series, T-20 series and even rested from unimportant test matches and both don't play county cricket.

I wonder if Waqar did not play every county season from 1990 to 1998, every series for Pakistan, if he had adopted to modern nutrition, training methods, would he have had a longer peak for Pakistan where lets say he played upto 2006-07 and had started losing real pace from 2003 onwards as oppossed to 1997 when he was officially 26-27 years old. Could his back injuries have been avoided with modern medical knowledge, training methods?

Even in his decline he consistently bowled deliveries that crossed 140kmph contrary to popular belief as late as 2003 WC... its just that our perception of 140kph wasn't as quick as it is considered now since we had Akhtar and Lee back then who consistently bowled closed to a 160kph

 

[Savak]

Even in his decline he consistently bowled deliveries that crossed 140kmph contrary to popular belief as late as 2003 WC... its just that our perception of 140kph wasn't as quick as it is considered now since we had Akhtar and Lee back then who consistently bowled closed to a 160kph

Not consistently, maybe the odd ball with the new ball but in his later spells Waqar was around 127-132 km/hr where batsmen feasted on him.

 

[waleed88]

Not consistently, maybe the odd ball with the new ball but in his later spells Waqar was around 127-132 km/hr where batsmen feasted on him.

I disagree, Waqar always had a tendency to go for higher runs than Wasim, but their average post 1999 was equal. Both averaged 29 in ODIs... Wasim was economical more due to his advantage of being a left armer and unconventionalilty. Both were inferior to Shoaib Akhtar and Saqlain.
Waqar actually bowled quicker than Wasim most of the time.

 

[waleed88]

Not consistently, maybe the odd ball with the new ball but in his later spells Waqar was around 127-132 km/hr where batsmen feasted on him.

His best bowling spells came against the top side post 1999, he got a 5'fer against India, South Africa and a 7'fer against England.. while Wasim never actually did it against the top sides post 1999 but was always economical and would take 1-2 wickets

 

[waleed88]

Wasim's only 5'fer from 1999 to 2003 came against Namibia in 2003 WC

 

[waleed88]

Add another 6'fer against Australia for Waqar in 2001

 

[Savak]

His best bowling spells came against the top side post 1999, he got a 5'fer against India, South Africa and a 7'fer against England.. while Wasim never actually did it against the top sides post 1999 but was always economical and would take 1-2 wickets

Waqar was mostly boom or bust during that time, he would go for plenty when he didn't get wickets and there was a time when he was dropped from the team on occasions from 1999-2003 and he only really got a consistent run once he was appointed captain.

Wasim may not have been taking 5'vers but he has economical and more reliable than Waqar to not go for plenty.

 

[waleed88]

Waqar was mostly boom or bust during that time, he would go for plenty when he didn't get wickets and there was a time when he was dropped from the team on occasions from 1999-2003 and he only really got a consistent run once he was appointed captain.

Wasim may not have been taking 5'vers but he has economical and more reliable than Waqar to not go for plenty.

Yes people actually conform to the idea that Waqar declined because Shoaib Akhtar came and took in his place,Waqar was a fine bowler in his own right and his stats proved it. Boom and bust when equally good for the whole team at that time, we were a bunch greek gods who would destroy the best team in the world but lose to them in embarrasing fashion on the big occassions. Waqar wasn't different from the whole squad at that time. He reached some phenomenal figures despite being the guy who was 'not in his prime'. He was a neccessity since Akhtar was always half fit, or had some sort of injury that ruled him out half the time.

 

[waleed88]

Point of comparison to Wasim was, that in the end his stats were reasonably as good as the supposed 'spearhead' of the attack. Wasim might've done well in the World Cup, but besides that there were alot of games he was bowled half as interested as a bowler, and some could also be age catching up with him. Lets not forget Waqar was atleast 3-4 years younger than Wasim during their entire time they were together.

 

[Junaids]

No.

The only issue is his fake age.

Officially, he debuted at 18 and was in decline from the age of 27.

In reality, he debuted at 22 and was an excellent Express bowler until his pace deserted him at the age of 31.

It was a great career.

 

[Junaids]

Just on their 1992 tour alone, they played 12 practice matches before the actual series. That's ridiculous.

That’s why they won.

Players got into form and adapted to the conditions.

And BTW, Waqar missed those 12 matches due to his earlier back injury.

 

[MMHS]

No.

The only issue is his fake age.

Officially, he debuted at 18 and was in decline from the age of 27.

In reality, he debuted at 22 and was an excellent Express bowler until his pace deserted him at the age of 31.

It was a great career.

Exactly, that was the case. He was born as a 5 years old (I can tell exact birthday, but let's no go there - sometimes in 1990s, PAK team was in BD & they celebrated WY's birthday by cutting a cake, few of my known people were present in that party & I can at least tell you that the date wasn't 16th Nov).

So, his debut on 17 years 364, has lot more story in it. His, last great spell arguably was Hobart 1999 (took couple of 6 fors & 7fors in ODI later, but with white ball & under light/gloomy sky, bowling medium fast), when he was officially 28 - you add 5 years & a bit with that - that's actually the age a certain Malcolm Marshall or DK Lillee retired from Test.

I use one example always, from Sunny's book - Idols. He saw Imran in 1971, as 18 years old kid; then in 1974, 3 years later - Khan grew 3-5 cms, in between ....... hence, he was able to become World's no. 1 bowler in March 1988, at 36 ...... could have been 31 as well ..........

 

[waleed88]

Exactly, that was the case. He was born as a 5 years old (I can tell exact birthday, but let's no go there - sometimes in 1990s, PAK team was in BD & they celebrated WY's birthday by cutting a cake, few of my known people were present in that party & I can at least tell you that the date wasn't 16th Nov).

So, his debut on 17 years 364, has lot more story in it. His, last great spell arguably was Hobart 1999 (took couple of 6 fors & 7fors in ODI later, but with white ball & under light/gloomy sky, bowling medium fast), when he was officially 28 - you add 5 years & a bit with that - that's actually the age a certain Malcolm Marshall or DK Lillee retired from Test.

I use one example always, from Sunny's book - Idols. He saw Imran in 1971, as 18 years old kid; then in 1974, 3 years later - Khan grew 3-5 cms, in between ....... hence, he was able to become World's no. 1 bowler in March 1988, at 36 ...... could have been 31 as well ..........

That complain never came up for Wasim or Mcgrath despite him bowling at 130kph throughout his career. Great bowlers find a way to take wickets regardless of what their speed is.

 

[waleed88]

A trait that was missing in Shoaib Akhtar, which is why he is never considered one of the greats as his career came to an end.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

That’s why they won.

Players got into form and adapted to the conditions.

And BTW, Waqar missed those 12 matches due to his earlier back injury.

No, he said he played. It was from him I learned of this.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

A trait that was missing in Shoaib Akhtar, which is why he is never considered one of the greats as his career came to an end.

Dude, Shoaib had no cartilage in his knees left. What's so difficult to understand?

 

[waleed88]

Dude, Shoaib had no cartilage in his knees left. What's so difficult to understand?

His off-field antics didn't help either

 

[Slog]

Just on their 1992 tour alone, they played 12 practice matches before the actual series. That's ridiculous.

i always wonder why there was like dozen plus tour matches in 1992

And Pakistan played pretty much full team every match

 

[Slog]

No, he said he played. It was from him I learned of this.

or a simple online search would also show

 

[Slog]

No, he said he played. It was from him I learned of this.

or a simple online search would also show

Waqar was rested for a few side matches

In all Pakistan played 36 matches in that three and half month tour

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I watched Waqars career consistently from the C&U series in 99 and while he did bowl the odd one above 140 kph , he was often bowling as low as 124 kph. He was at times medium pace and especially against Australia he was quite poor as they feasted on his bowling. Waqar bowled a lot and at consistently high speeds at his peak(around 90 mph on average). There's only so much the human body can take and he burnt out very quickly. You could argue that had he managed his workload and didn't bowl all out every match he could have had a career like Wasim/Steyn/McGrath but then he wouldn't have had the monster peak he was known for.

 

[Rightarmfast]

Waqar was officially medium pace from as early as 1995. Around 96, he was no more than 138ish bowler. Obviously, the occassional bowl would be in 140's, but nothing extraordinary about that.

No, I don't think Waqar burnt himself out. In which case, you got to compare bowlers from other teams, that would make them look giants. Bowlers like Chaminda Vaas, Srinath, Cairns, Streak etc, carried the whole weight on their own shoulders for almost their entire career.

 

[Zaz]

Lets get one thing straight Waqar was probably 3-4 years older than his stated age

So by the time he retired in 2003 he wasnt 32 but more 35ish

Now Of course he burnt himself out in his early days Serious injuries also took their toll

Going full tilt (150kmph +) in your early to mid 20s day in and out playing every county game, every jamodi was always going to have along term impact And it meant come 26-27 he started to decline in pace

 

[Savak]

Waqar was officially medium pace from as early as 1995. Around 96, he was no more than 138ish bowler. Obviously, the occassional bowl would be in 140's, but nothing extraordinary about that.

No, I don't think Waqar burnt himself out. In which case, you got to compare bowlers from other teams, that would make them look giants. Bowlers like Chaminda Vaas, Srinath, Cairns, Streak etc, carried the whole weight on their own shoulders for almost their entire career.

Vaas, Cairns, Streak were not 90 mph bowlers

 

[amax]

he aleady has one of greatest careers in the history of fast bowling , could have been even better if managed properly but than same can be said for Wasim and Imran.

 

[Savak]

he aleady has one of greatest careers in the history of fast bowling , could have been even better if managed properly but than same can be said for Wasim and Imran.

Wasim at best had groin problems, he maximized his years in Cricket and was still more effective than Waqar when he lost some pace. Imran only really got finished as a bowler from 1989 to 1992 when he was b/w 37 to 40 years old which is very natural for a fast bowler.

Waqar in comparison should not have declined so quickly and needed to better manage himself given his punishing bowling action.

 

[Rightarmfast]

Vaas, Cairns, Streak were not 90 mph bowlers

No my brother, what I was trying to say is, these bowlers also bowled day in day out. Doesnt matter if they bowled at 83-85mph as fastest. Waqar still had a lot of support unlike these bowlers.

Then again, if I answer your last post. It will be interesting to know how much of a mental stress would affect someone's game. We all know that there was so much of politics going on within the team and waqar and wasim were always at loggerheads. Did that affect Waqar adversely? Is that a possibility? I think it could be. Wasim was always a born leader, very likeable by all. Even today he is loved in India and all places. A luxury, waqar never had. All this does add some frustration.
This might sound a bit weird, but am thinking aloud, and I think this may also have been a reason.

 

[Savak]

No my brother, what I was trying to say is, these bowlers also bowled day in day out. Doesnt matter if they bowled at 83-85mph as fastest. Waqar still had a lot of support unlike these bowlers.

Then again, if I answer your last post. It will be interesting to know how much of a mental stress would affect someone's game. We all know that there was so much of politics going on within the team and waqar and wasim were always at loggerheads. Did that affect Waqar adversely? Is that a possibility? I think it could be. Wasim was always a born leader, very likeable by all. Even today he is loved in India and all places. A luxury, waqar never had. All this does add some frustration.
This might sound a bit weird, but am thinking aloud, and I think this may also have been a reason.

You cannot equate the workload of an 80-85 mph bowler to a 90 mph plus bowler, you are comparing Apple with Oranges. Even the Aussies are smart enough to use Starc in short sharp bursts and to not play him in unimportant, inconsequential games. There is a reason why Shaun Tait became a T-20 specialist and he still could not remain injury free.

Politics has always existed in the Pakistani dressing from inception therefore to blame that for Waqar's decline isn't correct. Waqar would have benefited tremendously if he was handled and managed the same way that the Proteas handle Steyn and the ACB handle Starc.

 

[Rightarmfast]

You cannot equate the workload of an 80-85 mph bowler to a 90 mph plus bowler, you are comparing Apple with Oranges. Even the Aussies are smart enough to use Starc in short sharp bursts and to not play him in unimportant, inconsequential games. There is a reason why Shaun Tait became a T-20 specialist and he still could not remain injury free.

Politics has always existed in the Pakistani dressing from inception therefore to blame that for Waqar's decline isn't correct. Waqar would have benefited tremendously if he was handled and managed the same way that the Proteas handle Steyn and the ACB handle Starc.

Not really. if an 80-85 mph bowler is going on without support day in day out, with support the bowler could achieve so much more. And able support is something Waqar always had. Its the other bowlers from oppositions who didnt have this luxury