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Your top 10 Test all-rounders of all time
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Bhaijaan
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Bhaijaan's Greatest ARs who ever played Test Cricket :-
1. Kapil Dev
2. WG Grace
3. Ian Botham
4. Imran Khan
5. Garfield Sobers
1. Kapil Dev
2. WG Grace
3. Ian Botham
4. Imran Khan
5. Garfield Sobers
Ab Fan
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1. Garfield Sobers
2. Imran Khan
3. Jacques Kallis
4. Keith Miller
5. Kapil Dev
6. Ian Botham
7. Ben Stokes
Only these 7 are iconic all-time great all-rounders who will be remembered across decades and across generations. The likes of Flintoff, Tony, Cairns and Eddie Barlow are all forgotten now and nobody talks much about them. No disrespect to them but in a grand scheme, only the mentioned seven names stands out in general.
Shakib will be remembered by Bangladesh because of his influence to BD cricket but not sure how he compares to the mentioned seven legends of the game.
Mike Proctor is an unlucky case as he precisely should be in top 3-4 but with very less tests, I can't really conclude his impact on South African cricket when taking overall game into context.
2. Imran Khan
3. Jacques Kallis
4. Keith Miller
5. Kapil Dev
6. Ian Botham
7. Ben Stokes
Only these 7 are iconic all-time great all-rounders who will be remembered across decades and across generations. The likes of Flintoff, Tony, Cairns and Eddie Barlow are all forgotten now and nobody talks much about them. No disrespect to them but in a grand scheme, only the mentioned seven names stands out in general.
Shakib will be remembered by Bangladesh because of his influence to BD cricket but not sure how he compares to the mentioned seven legends of the game.
Mike Proctor is an unlucky case as he precisely should be in top 3-4 but with very less tests, I can't really conclude his impact on South African cricket when taking overall game into context.
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Hitman
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Top 3 - Sobers, Imran, Miller (in order).
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Sobers
Kallis
Imran
Botham
Miller
Kapil
Stokes
Shakib
Greig
Procter
Kallis
Imran
Botham
Miller
Kapil
Stokes
Shakib
Greig
Procter
Robert
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Push Kallis up to #2.
Stokes will pass Greig by the time he finishes.
I would have Trevor Bailey edge Flintoff out of the top ten.
Unsure where to put Hadlee.....
For me the top 4 are obvious: Sobers, Imran, Kallis, Miller, in that order for me but others can be debated
Proctor is clearly on the class of those blokes, and above everyone else but he did not play as much test cricket so is no.5 for me
The next 5 are in some order:
Botham
Faulkner
Stokes
Dev
Greig
I would take this order, but again it can be debated. Stokes should be at the top of this by the time he retires
For test cricket obvs
Proctor is clearly on the class of those blokes, and above everyone else but he did not play as much test cricket so is no.5 for me
The next 5 are in some order:
Botham
Faulkner
Stokes
Dev
Greig
I would take this order, but again it can be debated. Stokes should be at the top of this by the time he retires
For test cricket obvs
How is Kapil better than Imran?
Given WG is there, assuming test cricket is the main priority, and Imran is significantly better than Dev - much, much better bowler and a slightly worse batsmen but a much better cricketer
Sobers is aslo much, much better, especially considering his fielding
For me it is hard to compare people like Botham, Kapil without an ATG suit to others like Kallis, Sobers and Imran who are ATG's in their strongest fields, as these blokes are just so much more valuable and selectable in ATG teams for their primary skill
Bhaijaan
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Imran is at #4 in my list and it is a huge honour for him to be regarded ahead of Sir Garfield Sobers, Sir Richard Hadlee, Myke Proctor
Everyone cannot be #1, or #2
From my perspective Kapil's the greatest pure AR ever. Apart from his statistical achievements which are plenty, he was the best of the lot against the best team of his era The West Indies.
Don't give me that crap about it being a huge honour for him. That is like putting Warne as the 2nd greatest spinner of all time behind Danish Kaneria and saying it is a huge honour for him to be above Murali.
Dev was brilliant vs the top team at the time, but his record is still vastly inferior to that of Imran generally. Don't forget that Imran was still very good vs the WI, and was also a very good captain
People like Kallis, Miller and Sobers were also brilliant fielders in addition to being much better players than Dev
I cannot accept that a bloke who averaged 30 with the ball, and 31 with the bat is the greatest all rounder of all time. One believing that reeks of bias
Bhaijaan
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Statistically Shane Warne isn't the greatest spinner ever, actually not even 2nd best and that is exactly the point.
Statistics are to be analysed in context and with the story of each player.
Kapil Dev was a better batsman against WI than most specialist batsmen of his era.
As a bowler , he was a one man bowling attack and his average/SR suffered immensely for that.
I have always maintained, Kapil is easily a 25 averaging bowler in a different better bowling team, probably even in the 23-23 range in some some ATH line ups like Windies of 1980s.
There is a reason why someone like Stuart Clarke averages 23&24 something with the ball. He wasn't anything special but he bowled in a great team of bowlers. Same applies to Ishant Sharma during last 3 years.
As a bowling unit, India was a minnow during Kapil's era and he retired with most wickets and as a bowler alone his record against Windies and in Australia is best of any Asian bowler, ahead of Imran, Wasim.
You mentioning Danish Kaneria in this debates contest is more of an insult tk Kapil Dev than me putting him at #4 ( still ahead of Sobers, Hadlee, Kallis)
Who is the 2nd best. Stats isn't a synonym for career average. Warne was a significant better all conditions average bowler that most competitors. His average is dragged down by his average in the spinners graveyard at home, despite the fact that he is far and away the best spinner in those conditions in recent history
Dev averaged 28 vs the WI as a bat. Solid for an AR but not brilliant. His bowling was very good vs them, but that doesn't account for his somewhat mediocre overall record.
ATG bowlers ewith poor support tend to have extremely high WPM, facillitated by the fact they get a high workload being a "one man bowling attack". See Murali and Hadlee for extremely obvious examples. Dev is nowhere. His WPM of 3.3 is frankly embarrassing for a purported "25 averaging bowler". He carried an attack, but he did not do so particularly well. Clark was a very good bowler. Hit the seam with height and incredible consistency. His record is slightly inflated a la Ryan Harris because he only bowled during his peak when he had figured out all of the tricks of the trade.
He only finished with the most wickets due to a ridiculous number of tests, not because he is an actual ATG bowler. Call him a poor man's Jimmy Anderson, if you will
The comparison between Dev, Imran/Sobers/Miller/Kallis is just as ludicrous as that between Kaneria and Warne/Murali
Not just the spinners graveyard, he did not do so well in the most spinner friendly conditions either - India.
Apologies for side tracking the debate.
No don't worry happy to talk about that.
Yes that is a sore point for Warne. All spinner's have holes in their records, bar perhaps O'Reilly. Murali was equally turgid vs India in India, so when comparing the two that is not a particularly relevant point. Murali was obviously terrible in Aus, compared to Warne who is the likely GOAT spinner within Aus
Bhaijaan
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With all due respect, Sir Richard Hadlee averages 10 in India with the bat.
I think you are confusing this for a bowling debate.
I am using a bowling debate.
Dev is a decent bat. Nothing more. An average of 31 does not put anyone in contention for being the GOAT allrounder when you have blokes averaging 50.
As such Dev's claim rests on his bowling. You claim that his poor figures are due to having to carry the load. While this may be true, it does not make him a great bowler. Murali and Hadlee were given as examples of how being the sole class bowler helps WPM, and the fact that Dev does not experience this shows his lack in quality. I am not claiming either Hadlee or Murali are all rounders, but purely that Dev's lack of a skill that could be classes as great - in the top 25 of his group means he cannot be considered better than someone like Imran or Sobers
Way to misinterpret a reasonably clear post
Bhaijaan
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An average of 31+ for a #7 batsman with a SR of 100
There is a difference.
Brother you are misinterpreting stats not me.
Like j said previously, Kapil.was a better batsman against Windies than most specialist batsmen and some greats even. For instance Kapil>Miandad/Abbass as a batsman against Windies.
Hadlee is not just an ATG bowler, he is among the top 5 IMO. Many might even rate him higher.
Kapil isn't in the league of Hadlee as a bowler but he is an ATG fast bowler
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Kallis
Stokes
Sobers
Kapil
Imran
Botham
Flintoff
Miller
Hadlee
Shakib/Cairns.
Stokes
Sobers
Kapil
Imran
Botham
Flintoff
Miller
Hadlee
Shakib/Cairns.
sweep_shot
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This list doesn't have any order. I forgot to mention.
That SR helps, but in test cricket it isn't overly relevant. Otherwise we would all call Sehwag better than Tendulkar but we don't.
For the 8th time, his record vs the WI is good, but his record vs everyone else is vastly inferior to his competition. We don't say that Lamb > Miandad because he was better vs the WI. And Miandad was a equally good vs the WI, considering that he lead Pak to a series win
Abbas couldn't play pace so that was no surprise
Agreed with the Hadlee point, but you are missing the point. Great bowlers get WPM inflated by playing in great teams. Marshall is commonly seen as a greater bowler than Hadlee, but Hadlee had much better WPM. If Dev was a great bowler, Why is his WPM less than that of Gillespie, Gough etc - very good bowlers who I believe he is more similar to
Who is Shakib ?
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Chap with almost 4000 test runs at 40 and more than 200 wickets at 31. Also loves dodgy dealings with the bookies on the side.
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