‘I was a made a scapegoat for England’s Test defeats,’ says Moeen Ali

[majiz]

my gut tells me he has a point. the british press tend to expect more from people who aren't white and will judge them more harshly almost naturally . cant see things changing for absolute time cuz..........

 

[Khan12]

If Moeen happens to play 100 Tests for England, it would make him one of the worst cricketers in history to reach that mark.

He clearly doesn’t have a leg to stand on as far moaning about mistreatment is concerned. He is actually a very lucky player. Far better cricketers around the world have played less Test cricket than him.

That land mark won't be reached by him unfortunately for you even more so it won't be a guy with beard. At the moment Barstow and Butler are winning the race by a country mile.

 

[gazza619]

The problem is that he has had his nose into too much cricket.

Needs to cut down.

 

[Mamoon]

That land mark won't be reached by him unfortunately for you even more so it won't be a guy with beard. At the moment Barstow and Butler are winning the race by a country mile.

Bairstow and Buttler won’t keep their places for long if they don’t improve their records, but their fans will accept their poor performances and not justify it by crying about discrimination.

Besides, there is a difference between those two and Moeen. Those two have proved themselves as world class Limited Overs players so there is a semblance of hope that they might translate their white ball success to Test cricket at some point.

However, Moeen is a failure in all formats so you have to question his ability and mental strength to succeed in international cricket.

 

[Mamoon]

You are just back tracking yet again, so he goes from being a bottler to having two purple patches to being a bottler again. You said he could never win England I game, I gave you several instances...then you complained it only happened at home. What is your criteria exactly?

(Only good at home but Englands best bowler in an impressive series win in SL)

Having two good summers is not a “purple patch”. Purple patch is when you consistently perform in most (if not all) places for a period of time. Moeen has performed at home on occasions but he has followed it up with dreadful performances overseas.

For example, he was very good against South Africa at home but then he went to Australia and they mentally destroyed him.

When did I say that “he could never win a game for England”?

If that is what you inferred, it is your problem and you should not put words in my mouth because I didn’t write those words.

I hope you do realize that every mediocre player who has had the luxury of playing 60 Tests for his country would have a few sporadic performances to show for, but that doesn’t make him a quality player because his mediocre record proves it.

Do I really need to explain my criteria to prove why Moeen is a terribly mediocre cricketer?

What is his record against the top sides with both bat and ball? Has he failed against the majority of top sides or excelled?

In how many countries does he average 35+ with the bat? In how many countries has he produced with the ball?

What is his record across formats?

What is his record in World Cups?

What is his Ashes record like?

What is his standing/stature in the game today?

Both him and Stokes became regulars for England at roughly the same time. Where is Stokes today and where is Mooen?

In fact, I should be the one to ask you for the criteria by which you are going from pillar to post to prove that Moeen is a quality player.

Unfortunately, it is not just you. Most British Pakistanis tend to lionize this laughably ordinary cricketer because he is a role-model for them, and then they get upset when others expose his poor record.

A few years back, there was actually a thread (by s28, a British Pakistani poster) who tried to prove that Moeen was better than Stokes, even though it has been obvious since day one that Moeen will never be anywhere close to him.

Heck, if we go back to your original post I clearly exposed you to not having even read interview, where he clearly states the ECB was always supportive of him, supported his decision to have time away from tests and he never (As far as I can see in the article on the GUardian and the other one posted her) use the word scapegoat. Can you find it for me?

It won’t be hard for you to find the word scapegoat because it is mentioned in the thread title. If you have an issue with that word, please take it up with the moderators.

Scapegoat means blaming someone as an excuse for the failures of others.

Now read what Moeen said in the article. The link is provided in the OP and you can find the same article in multiple English newspapers:

“ Moeen Ali believes he had cruelly become a scapegoat for England's shortcomings before he stepped away from Test cricket last summer.

"There have been days I've had not so good games but I feel like sometimes it's easy to point the finger at me.”

The article in Guardian also wrote the following quote by Moeen:

“A lot of the time if we lose I feel I am one of the first guys to get the blame for it”

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jan/16/england-moeen-ali-scapegoat-test-cricket

It is also mentioned in Wisden:

https://www.wisden.com/stories/news...t-me-moeen-blames-scapegoating-for-test-break

Please note that both the Guardian and Wisden, as well as MenInG used the word scapegoat in their titles, and I completely agree with the use of that word, because that is exactly what Moeen is trying to imply.

However, since your grasp of English and your vocabulary is richer than mine, MenInG’s and also the editors of newspapers, please suggest a word that would encapsulate Moeen’s statements better than the word scapegoat.

Furthermore, I did read the article. In fact, I read it first in the Guardian before this thread was created.

The reason why I always try to read a Moeen article is not because I find him interesting as a player, but the articles written on him are certainly interesting.

There is almost always an inevitable mention of how tough it was for him to grow up in inner Birmingham and get into cricket. A story that we have heard a thousand times now.

Moreover, there is also a lazy remark by the editor on how ECB should do more to support South Asian cricketers, although they never provide solutions.

That is why I never miss a Moeen article because I want to see if it can be less predictable for a change. Usually, I am not disappointed.

You are imposing your own delusions and weaknesses onto your posts on this forum. Your next post is shameful...I wonder if you will make a list of all the failures from white cricketers in the 90s and 00s?

It is not delusional to say that Moeen is a bog average cricketer, because that is all he is and facts and stats as well as his standing in the game today proves it.

You call it delusional because you have decided to idolize an average cricketer and then you get disappointed when others decide to judge him for his cricket and not his background and struggles.

My next post was shameful for you because you saw what you didn’t want to see - a true representation of the failures of South Asian cricketers who have clearly not proved to be good enough, but their fans justify their failures by crying about discrimination.

Yes I can provide you a list of white players who have failed, but there is also a list of white players who have excelled. Moreover, the white players who have failed are not going to be protected with victim cards and cries of discrimination.

However, when you consider South Asian origin players, you see a harrowing trend. Apart from 1-2 names like Nasser and perhaps Rashid, all of them have failed in international cricket and eventually fizzled out. Moeen appears to be following the same path.

It is time for English South Asian players and their fans to engage in introspection and get to the core of the problem.

Why do most South Asian players fail and why do their careers not take off?

Do they need to work harder and improve their attitude?

Surely, continuing to blame discrimination and scapegoating will not change the fate of south Asian cricketers in England.

 

[Manunited18]

Typically the news papers have clearly blown this out of proportion, whilst moin being put on the spot when asked about this, he clearly stated he had the support of the England managment. YET our custom puucking parrot continues to live in cloud cuckoo land

 

[Robert]

Bairstow and Buttler won’t keep their places for long if they don’t improve their records, but their fans will accept their poor performances and not justify it by crying about discrimination.

Besides, there is a difference between those two and Moeen. Those two have proved themselves as world class Limited Overs players so there is a semblance of hope that they might translate their white ball success to Test cricket at some point.

However, Moeen is a failure in all formats so you have to question his ability and mental strength to succeed in international cricket.

Prior to being dropped he was the world’s leading test wicket taker over the previous twelve months.

Also has five test centuries, two in India.

 

[Mamoon]

Prior to being dropped he was the world’s leading test wicket taker over the previous twelve months.

Also has five test centuries, two in India.

His last Test century was almost 4 years ago and he averaged 100+ with the ball in Australia.

In spite of his recent record with the ball, he was not good enough to keep his place in the side and his replacement took a 5 wicket haul yesterday.

I don’t mind his fans wanting him to be in the team because they think he is better than other English spinners. However, let’s make something clear. He has not been discriminated against, he has not been scapegoated, he has not proved himself to be a great player and he deserved to be dropped based on how he has performed across formats.

He appeared to be hell-bent on derailing England’s World Cup campaign, something they have been working hard at for 4 years.

Moeen needs to work hard on his cricket and win his place back by performing instead of scapegoating himself, and meanwhile his British Pakistani supporters should understand that not everyone is going to revere him for his background.

For those of us who are not British Pakistanis, we are only going to judge him for his performances as a cricketer and we do not think he is anything other than mediocre based on his career so far.

 

[MenInG]

His last Test century was almost 4 years ago and he averaged 100+ with the ball in Australia.

In spite of his recent record with the ball, he was not good enough to keep his place in the side and his replacement took a 5 wicket haul yesterday.

I don’t mind his fans wanting him to be in the team because they think he is better than other English spinners. However, let’s make something clear. He has not been discriminated against, he has not been scapegoated, he has not proved himself to be a great player and he deserved to be dropped based on how he has performed across formats.

He appeared to be hell-bent on derailing England’s World Cup campaign, something they have been working hard at for 4 years.

Moeen needs to work hard on his cricket and win his place back by performing instead of scapegoating himself, and meanwhile his British Pakistani supporters should understand that not everyone is going to revere him for his background.

For those of us who are not British Pakistanis, we are only going to judge him for his performances as a cricketer and we do not think he is anything other than mediocre based on his career so far.

Stop bringing his ethnicity in every other post.

Stick to Moeen's cricket and leave the rest for TimePass & Sports.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Matches played:
Tests : 60
ODI : 100
T20 : 25

Batting average:
Tests : 28.98
ODI : 25.59
T20 : 14.69

Bowling average:
Tests : 36.6
ODI : 48.68
T20 : 34.6

 

[Mamoon]

Stop bringing his ethnicity in every other post.

Stick to Moeen's cricket and leave the rest for TimePass & Sports.

It is impossible not to because it is quite clear why some people make it their life mission to support and defend this ordinary player.

Hence, I cannot call people our for their biases without reflecting on why they actually support him in the first place.

Nevertheless, perhaps I should refrain from posting in this thread considering the stipulations.

 

[MenInG]

It is impossible not to because it is quite clear why some people make it their life mission to support and defend this ordinary player.

Hence, I cannot call people our for their biases without reflecting on why they actually support him in the first place.

Nevertheless, perhaps I should refrain from posting in this thread considering the stipulations.

You can post any cricket related arguments - if people want to make fools of themselves by saying he is better because he is Asian etc then that is on their heads.

 

[Manunited18]

It is impossible not to because it is quite clear why some people make it their life mission to support and defend this ordinary player.

Hence, I cannot call people our for their biases without reflecting on why they actually support him in the first place.

Nevertheless, perhaps I should refrain from posting in this thread considering the stipulations.

I see moin ali as just another cricketer for England, as far as role models then there's only one for me, sir jimmy Anderson the Burnley express arguably alongside sir allister cook the cricketer of the last decade, You see burnley c.c is not far from my neck of the woods and the highly popular lancashire league is our holy grail, we've had the like a of sir Viv, Allan Donald, Dennis millee, michael holding, Jason Gillespie, Nathan astle, Ian Austin, sylvester clarke, mudasser nazr grace our league, and jimmy Anderson over seen grown through the ranks from Burnley seconds to then quickly fast tracked in to lancashire thanks to the tea lady at Burnley cc, from then obviously on to England honours, so your again deluded as far as I'm concerned.

 

[barah_admi]

Typically the news papers have clearly blown this out of proportion, whilst moin being put on the spot when asked about this, he clearly stated he had the support of the England managment. YET our custom puucking parrot continues to live in cloud cuckoo land

And as I said to Mamoon he should actually try and read the interview.

Having two good summers is not a “purple patch”. Purple patch is when you consistently perform in most (if not all) places for a period of time. Moeen has performed at home on occasions but he has followed it up with dreadful performances overseas.

I will stop you right there, you were the one that used the term "purple patch" as per your post

"Apart from his two purple patches at home in 2016 and 2017, he has always been an average player and was never in the same league as Stokes."


Found being dishonest again.

 

[cricketjoshila]

That and the luck and set up involved around these franchises play a huge part. Mumbai Indians have the best set up they take proper care of their players have a sound management it makes sense since they are the richest. But teams like rcb are already under the scanner the owner has fled the country malia or something he lives in uk now etc. I don’t know who still owns the team I also think kohli has part shares in it. Anyways it’s mostly on the set up and management in these leagues you can have the best of players but still not win. Quetta gladiators are a proof of that in psl they don’t have the big names but are the most consistent team where Karachi and Lahore always go for the big names but since their management is paindu they end up getting thrashed. Brisbane heat is another example of RCB.

Mallya never owned RCB. It was owned by united spirits. A listed company of which he was the largest share holder and chairman.Thats how he also was chairman of RCB.

He sold his shares to Diageo, worlds biggest liquor company so Diageo is now the majority shareholder of United spirits and RCB.

Kohli owns no shares in RCB. No active player can own shares in a IPL team.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Moeen Ali did well vs India, may be England wanted a better spinner.

 

[Robert]

I would take Moeen to SL.

 

[Hitman]

Matches played:
Tests : 60
ODI : 100
T20 : 25

Batting average:
Tests : 28.98
ODI : 25.59
T20 : 14.69

Bowling average:
Tests : 36.6
ODI : 48.68
T20 : 34.6

That's not average, rather below average. Strange how he managed to play 60 Tests with such pathetic outputs.

 

[Khan12]

Bairstow and Buttler won’t keep their places for long if they don’t improve their records, but their fans will accept their poor performances and not justify it by crying about discrimination.

Besides, there is a difference between those two and Moeen. Those two have proved themselves as world class Limited Overs players so there is a semblance of hope that they might translate their white ball success to Test cricket at some point.

However, Moeen is a failure in all formats so you have to question his ability and mental strength to succeed in international cricket.

Butler has played 40 games already while Bairstow has played more then moean, so there goes your argument. They both average similar to moean, while moean had 5 centuries in 40 tests. Butler has only 1.

This was about worst players to play test where did they odis etc come from, unless odis are counted as tests. The failure for you to accept them 2 currently playing the way they are without a doubt will end up one of the worst players to play 100 tests for England. Unfortunately you are posting without sense due to your clear hate for moean.

How many games do they need more to translate it into test they have played 110 tests between them. That's more then what Pakistan most likely will play in the next 10 years!!!!!.

I say take a rest with your hate or post without hate or you will keep getting embarrassed like [MENTION=146504]barah_admi[/MENTION] has made an example of you in this thread. He's dished out an epic "humiliation".

 

[Manunited18]

Butler has played 40 games already while Bairstow has played more then moean, so there goes your argument. They both average similar to moean, while moean had 5 centuries in 40 tests. Butler has only 1.

This was about worst players to play test where did they odis etc come from, unless odis are counted as tests. The failure for you to accept them 2 currently playing the way they are without a doubt will end up one of the worst players to play 100 tests for England. Unfortunately you are posting without sense due to your clear hate for moean.

How many games do they need more to translate it into test they have played 110 tests between them. That's more then what Pakistan most likely will play in the next 10 years!!!!!.

I say take a rest with your hate or post without hate or you will keep getting embarrassed like [MENTION=146504]barah_admi[/MENTION] has made an example of you in this thread. He's dished out an epic "humiliation".

What's probably keeping buttler in team is hes the keeper, but I do agree moins batting record is better than buttler

 

[Mamoon]

And as I said to Mamoon he should actually try and read the interview.



I will stop you right there, you were the one that used the term "purple patch" as per your post

"Apart from his two purple patches at home in 2016 and 2017, he has always been an average player and was never in the same league as Stokes."


Found being dishonest again.

Apologies for that mistake. I should NOT have called it a purple patch in the first place, because it doesn’t fit the description of a purple patch.

See I can be honest, and that is why I expect you to be honest as well.

So now the ball is back in your court - will you reply to the rest of my post or will you run?

 

[Mamoon]

Butler has played 40 games already while Bairstow has played more then moean, so there goes your argument. They both average similar to moean, while moean had 5 centuries in 40 tests. Butler has only 1.

This was about worst players to play test where did they odis etc come from, unless odis are counted as tests. The failure for you to accept them 2 currently playing the way they are without a doubt will end up one of the worst players to play 100 tests for England. Unfortunately you are posting without sense due to your clear hate for moean.

How many games do they need more to translate it into test they have played 110 tests between them. That's more then what Pakistan most likely will play in the next 10 years!!!!!.

I say take a rest with your hate or post without hate or you will keep getting embarrassed like [MENTION=146504]barah_admi[/MENTION] has made an example of you in this thread. He's dished out an epic "humiliation".

Please don’t hide behind another poster. I have clarified my error. Debate on the strength of your own arguments.

As far as I can see, the only humiliation here is for a section of fans who are clutching at straws to defend this clearly mediocre cricketer.

I will repeat what I said - both Buttler and Bairstow have more pedigree than Moeen because they proved themselves to be top class in at least two formats at the international level.

On the contrary, Moeen has proved to be a mediocre cricketer in all formats, so you have to question if he has the mental capacity to succeed in international cricket in the first place.

Moeen is a mediocre cricketer. His record across all formats proves it. Why is it hard for some people to accept?

 

[Khan12]

Please don’t hide behind another poster. I have clarified my error. Debate on the strength of your own arguments.

As far as I can see, the only humiliation here is for a section of fans who are clutching at straws to defend this clearly mediocre cricketer.

I will repeat what I said - both Buttler and Bairstow have more pedigree than Moeen because they proved themselves to be top class in at least two formats at the international level.

On the contrary, Moeen has proved to be a mediocre cricketer in all formats, so you have to question if he has the mental capacity to succeed in international cricket in the first place.

Moeen is a mediocre cricketer. His record across all formats proves it. Why is it hard for some people to accept?

Last time I checked tests and odis are different formats can you confirm. My response was in relation to "worst payer to play 100 tests", so where did odis and t20s come from. You are stuck hence coming up with other formats. Answer about tests. Moean is rubbish in tests then what are these 2 in tests. Stop going to other formats. If moeen plays 110 tests I am sure he will score more then 7 centuries which these 2 have scored.

 

[Mamoon]

Last time I checked tests and odis are different formats can you confirm. My response was in relation to "worst payer to play 100 tests", so where did odis and t20s come from. You are stuck hence coming up with other formats. Answer about tests. Moean is rubbish in tests then what are these 2 in tests. Stop going to other formats. If moeen plays 110 tests I am sure he will score more then 7 centuries which these 2 have scored.

If Moeen, Buttler and Bairstow all get to 100 Tests mark, Moeen will be the worst player of the lot to get there. There you go, that is my answer.

 

[Khan12]

If Moeen, Buttler and Bairstow all get to 100 Tests mark, Moeen will be the worst player of the lot to get there. There you go, that is my answer.

You mean there is proof of my hate for everyone to see. I see you are cornered again and have no response. Come with stats to prove it. Stop running away.

 

[Mamoon]

You mean there is proof of my hate for everyone to see. I see you are cornered again and have no response. Come with stats to prove it. Stop running away.

Why would I run when I am the one stating the fact here. The fact that Moeen is a laughably ordinary cricketer. You should be on the run for lionizing such a mediocre player.

Bairstow and Buttler have far higher ceilings than this mediocrity and if all of them play 100 Tests, it is obvious which two players will have better records.

 

[barah_admi]

Apologies for that mistake. I should NOT have called it a purple patch in the first place, because it doesn’t fit the description of a purple patch.

See I can be honest, and that is why I expect you to be honest as well.

So now the ball is back in your court - will you reply to the rest of my post or will you run?

You're not being honest, you're back tracking on what you said, because you clearly state, beyond the purple patch section, that he played well in 2016/17, unless you are now going back and saying he did not?

 

[Mamoon]

You're not being honest, you're back tracking on what you said, because you clearly state, beyond the purple patch section, that he played well in 2016/17, unless you are now going back and saying he did not?

Thanks, so you are clearly not interested in addressing the points I raised. It is quite obvious that you cannot defend this spectacularly ordinary player, but I should have known it from the start. Perhaps it is time to cut short your misery and leave you to your devotion.

You can have the last word if you wish, but this is pointless because you are not willing to answer the points I raised and keep circling back to whatever suits your point of view.

You have nothing to say about his terrible overall record against most top teams, you have nothing to say about his two failed World Cups, you have nothing to say about how you were wrong to accuse me of using the word “scapegoat”, you have nothing to say about the lack of success of Asian cricketers in general etc. etc.

It is very obvious who is being dishonest here.

 

[barah_admi]

Thanks, so you are clearly not interested in addressing the points I raised. It is quite obvious that you cannot defend this spectacularly ordinary player, but I should have known it from the start. Perhaps it is time to cut short your misery and leave you to your devotion.

You can have the last word if you wish, but this is pointless because you are not willing to answer the points I raised and keep circling back to whatever suits your point of view.

You have nothing to say about his terrible overall record against most top teams, you have nothing to say about his two failed World Cups, you have nothing to say about how you were wrong to accuse me of using the word “scapegoat”, you have nothing to say about the lack of success of Asian cricketers in general etc. etc.

It is very obvious who is being dishonest here.

I dont need to defend him. I have stated that he was England's best bowler and one of the best in the test arena for a period of time, I also stated he was crucial to their ODI set up for a similar period of time.

You started by stating he was a "bottler" and then went on to state he had a "purple patch" ... and then all of a sudden he did not have a purple patch and was only good at home...although still, somehow a bottler. There were times when Ali bowled better than Broad and won more matches than Broad, all the while being a cross format player which even broad and JImmy have not been for the better part of half a decade.

Me, and others like me are not saying he was a great cricketer or untouchable, but he did very well for England in the time he had. And ,for those of us who read his interview we know he never used he word "scapegoat" and actually applauded the ECB set up. You are the one who is actually avoiding and then lying about pertinent points. This is part and parcel of who you are and if anyone was to read over our posts on here, they would see who was being disingenuous.