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“What China says about their programs in Xinjiang, we accept it" : PM Imran Khan

Local.Dada said:
This is where it gets confusing. The so called “peaceful” Kashmiri protestors seem to want “Azaad Kashmir” an independent country. Pakistan calls it’s side of the Kashmir as “Azaad Kashmir” with its own PM while the Indian narrative is it is “POK”.
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People in Indian controlled Kashmir valley want independence. They dont want to be part of India or join Pakistan. They want complete azaadi. However the independence they want is not just for the valley, but the entire state, both Indian and Pakistani portions, as they are the majority and they would dominate it.

Local.Dada said:
On the Indian side there is total clarity that Kashmir belongs to India and Pakistan calls it “IOK” which is fair from their perspective.

Now is Pakistan goal of having Kashmir as another state or giving freedom to Kashmiris? I am still not
clear.
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The official position of Pakistan is to have one winner take all referendum in the entire state. Why? Because they are convinced that if the only options are India and Pakistan they would win.

Until this referendum happens they have made Azad Kashmir a semi autonomous area. And Gilgit-Baltistan has been made into a semi-province.
 
Local.Dada said:
The nuclear leverage that Pakistan has is not because of the state itself. There is a fear that these nukes can be easily accessible to the extreme elements which will be bad news not just for India or USA but to the entire world.

From a state perspective those nukes are pretty useless and that applies to India as well because unless there is an extreme situation, no country will use its nukes that includes USA and China and for sure not as a first strike
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Yes, it would be very bad for the entire world. So they need to think carefully when pressurizing Pakistan.
 
Gharib Aadmi said:
Yes, it would be very bad for the entire world. So they need to think carefully when pressurizing Pakistan.
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No country cares about nukes because no country will use it. Nukes is one thing that is preventing a third world war.

Pakistan isn't in a position where, "oh **** they are pressurizing me so I should use nukes to deter!"

nukes are irrelevant in these circumstances unless it excels to something in a world war which even then is a far distant possibility.
 
Itachi said:
No country cares about nukes because no country will use it. Nukes is one thing that is preventing a third world war.

Pakistan isn't in a position where, "oh **** they are pressurizing me so I should use nukes to deter!"

nukes are irrelevant in these circumstances unless it excels to something in a world war which even then is a far distant possibility.
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No country will use it. However extremist groups would have no problem in doing so. So if Pakistan were to collapse their is a risk that they got get those weapons. So that makes Pakistan too nuclear too fail. That is the leverage.
 
Local.Dada said:
This is where it gets confusing. The so called “peaceful” Kashmiri protestors seem to want “Azaad Kashmir” an independent country. Pakistan calls it’s side of the Kashmir as “Azaad Kashmir” with its own PM while the Indian narrative is it is “POK”.

On the Indian side there is total clarity that Kashmir belongs to India and Pakistan calls it “IOK” which is fair from their perspective.

Now is Pakistan goal of having Kashmir as another state or giving freedom to Kashmiris? I am still not
clear.

Anyway for now Modi has made one part of it absolutely clear with removal of article 370.
Good or bad it’s great to see someone with the guts to end a debate from one side.

Pakistan’s narrative seems confusing. If India has stolen it’s territory then there should be retaliation instead of Kashmir hour etc.

Now before someone says how Pakistan humiliated Abhinandan and defeated India, let’s believe that narrative as the whole truth for a second. Our pilot was returned back to us in intact with a procession and sure Pakistanis got some internet memes and online points while Modi on the other hand as an aftermath repealed and put the nail in the Kashmir issue for once and for all. So not sure who is at loss.
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Lol at final nail in Kashmir issue

Maybe you didn’t follow the after math of what happened in Kashmir and how india has to maintain. The worlds largest assembled force to keep control of the land it occupies
 
Ahmad-GERMANFC said:
Lol at final nail in Kashmir issue

Maybe you didn’t follow the after math of what happened in Kashmir and how india has to maintain. The worlds largest assembled force to keep control of the land it occupies
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What issues India faces internally or how they like to go about keeping law and order is Indias problem.

It doesn’t matter if they have a few policemen or as you say the largest assembled force, that is the GOI’s headache. However yes officially the matter of has ended from seeing it as a disputed territory. It is officially a state and doesn’t have any special caveats. I think a simple google search will say the same thing. Now how you view it is your prerogative and problem.
 
Gharib Aadmi said:
No country will use it. However extremist groups would have no problem in doing so. So if Pakistan were to collapse their is a risk that they got get those weapons. So that makes Pakistan too nuclear too fail. That is the leverage.
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That doesn’t give Pakistan any leverage. You probably are misusing the word “leverage” here.

Basically what you says translates to “Pakistan has rogue elements that can get their hands on the nukes so they have the advantage when it comes to making deals”. Is it just me or does it sound ridiculous?
 
Gharib Aadmi said:
No country will use it. However extremist groups would have no problem in doing so. So if Pakistan were to collapse their is a risk that they got get those weapons. So that makes Pakistan too nuclear too fail. That is the leverage.
Click to expand...

that's not leverage.

That's liability for other countries.
 
Itachi said:
No country cares about nukes because no country will use it. Nukes is one thing that is preventing a third world war.

Pakistan isn't in a position where, "oh **** they are pressurizing me so I should use nukes to deter!"

nukes are irrelevant in these circumstances unless it excels to something in a world war which even then is a far distant possibility.
Click to expand...

Pakistan have stated on multiple occasions that they will not rule out the use of nukes if India were to be aggressive towards them.
 
Re: kashmir, Pakistan's position is pitiful and laughable
- India has now assumed full ownership of Kashmir and closed all venues of bargain
- Pakistan cant take it by force
- cant incite terrorism in full gear due to fatf pressure.
- left to huff and puff which is being royally ignored by all including the muslim umma and iron birathers.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Pakistan may well be able to modernise their industries due to their common interests with China. There certainly seems to be a lot more chance of that than when they were part of the useless talking shop SAARC.
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Any country expecting to get rich from economic ties with CPP controlled China is in for a severe disappointment.

At least SAARC didn’t push Pakistan deep into debt the way CEPC has. China could have easily used Pakistani labor and resources for the CEPC projects instead of making Pakistan borrow huge amounts from China to pay for Chinese labor and resources for the projects.
 
Lego20 said:
Re: kashmir, Pakistan's position is pitiful and laughable
- India has now assumed full ownership of Kashmir and closed all venues of bargain
- Pakistan cant take it by force
- cant incite terrorism in full gear due to fatf pressure.
- left to huff and puff which is being royally ignored by all including the muslim umma and iron birathers.
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The frustration of which is visible right from imran to the common poster here.
 
IMMY69 said:
You couldn't care less when your people were struggling for oxygen and dying outside hospitals so why should you care who Nukes who first?
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I was serving my people in ITUs. Few Pakistanis think that having nukes gives them advantage over India. It doesn't.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
That wasn't a quote, that was his spin on it, which I am not about to take at face value given his posting history.
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I think it was about right, IK was asked about china and said hes interested in whats happening on the border, on kashmir.
 
Gharib Aadmi said:
Would you give the same advise to Pakistani Hindus and other non Muslims Pakistanis? To assimilate with Pakistani Muslims.
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Chinese are non-religious. You are not expected to submit to any god or holy book. No, I don't suggest the same thing to Pakistani Hindus. Here they are expected to convert to Islam.
 
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hitthestump said:
Pakistan have stated on multiple occasions that they will not rule out the use of nukes if India were to be aggressive towards them.
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Pakistan doesn't have the authority.

China will dictate the terms for Pakistan and it itself has no FUP.
 
street cricketer said:
If we're being honest, Imran probably is fully aware of what goes inside China.

He just is not in any position to dictate terms to China given China pretty much bankrolls the country after Pakistan got caught in a debt trap.
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True, but it does really get you thinking about how washed up and useless the United Nations is.

Even if Pakistan were to tell China, would they stop? No, they wouldn't.

At the end of the day, there is no supreme power over all countries which can actually convince governments to change their stances.

If there was, we'd have seen an end to most conflicts around the world.
 
UzmanBeast said:
True, but it does really get you thinking about how washed up and useless the United Nations is.

Even if Pakistan were to tell China, would they stop? No, they wouldn't.

At the end of the day, there is no supreme power over all countries which can actually convince governments to change their stances.

If there was, we'd have seen an end to most conflicts around the world.
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I'm not saying might is right but might has always won throughout the course of history. A lot of hindus tend to go foreign muslim invaders conquered and subjugated India wah wah but they did so because they had mighty armies. The subcontinent got colonised because the British had the mightiest empire that ruled the world. I say the same when people talk about Israel's impunity with respect to Palestine, they do so because they have might and power. I'm not saying what they're doing is right, I'm just saying people with power will always get away with doing things to those without it. Might has prevailed in the past, it is prevailing now and it will always prevail in the future.

China is able to get away with it because they are the most powerful entity in the world after the US. You can't simply invade a country like in the past after the discovery of nuclear weapons. You can't sanction and isolate it because the Chinese economy is so strong that you simply can't isolate it like you could do with less powerful countries. So thinking organisations like the UN will resolve global conflicts is a pipe dream. The best way to not get the wrong end of the stick in global conflicts is to make sure you're mighty enough that others can't bully you around. It might be a very simplistic answer but at the end of the day, only the fittest survive in the world.
 
Napa said:
Any country expecting to get rich from economic ties with CPP controlled China is in for a severe disappointment.

At least SAARC didn’t push Pakistan deep into debt the way CEPC has. China could have easily used Pakistani labor and resources for the CEPC projects instead of making Pakistan borrow huge amounts from China to pay for Chinese labor and resources for the projects.
Click to expand...

China can't make Pakistan do anything. CPEC is a huge project which will enable trade across the whole eastern hemisphere. Pakistan is hardly the only country involved, it is a huge project involving large swathes of Asia and beyond. If India wants to offer a better alternative the opportunity is there, otherwise Pakistan will look at other options.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
China can't make Pakistan do anything. CPEC is a huge project which will enable trade across the whole eastern hemisphere. Pakistan is hardly the only country involved, it is a huge project involving large swathes of Asia and beyond. If India wants to offer a better alternative the opportunity is there, otherwise Pakistan will look at other options.
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Pakistan doesnt need any investment from india for infranstruchuer nor china.

but yes china cant make pakistan do anything, that is until it starts defaulting on the debt and cant repay it, then china becomes the controller and the captain of the ship, its not like it hasnt happened, its happened everywhere china has handed out debt too.

Pakistan will need to look at alternatives though, with america who announced there version of BRI at the G7 meeting which should be launched later this year.

However pakistan should stop taking investments from anyone and should take it from everywhere but on its own terms, and remain neutral in any war. Unfortunatly these clowns in power wouldnt be able to do that and will continue to be one day in american camp, then the next in chinese camp.
 
PetroDollars said:
Pakistan doesnt need any investment from india for infranstruchuer nor china.

but yes china cant make pakistan do anything, that is until it starts defaulting on the debt and cant repay it, then china becomes the controller and the captain of the ship, its not like it hasnt happened, its happened everywhere china has handed out debt too.

Pakistan will need to look at alternatives though, with america who announced there version of BRI at the G7 meeting which should be launched later this year.

However pakistan should stop taking investments from anyone and should take it from everywhere but on its own terms, and remain neutral in any war. Unfortunatly these clowns in power wouldnt be able to do that and will continue to be one day in american camp, then the next in chinese camp.
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Well you would assume anyone taking loans will have to agree to the lender's terms, not make up their own. If Chinese investment is too costly, Pakistan should look for alternative source.
 
street cricketer said:
I'm not saying might is right but might has always won throughout the course of history. A lot of hindus tend to go foreign muslim invaders conquered and subjugated India wah wah but they did so because they had mighty armies. The subcontinent got colonised because the British had the mightiest empire that ruled the world. I say the same when people talk about Israel's impunity with respect to Palestine, they do so because they have might and power. I'm not saying what they're doing is right, I'm just saying people with power will always get away with doing things to those without it. Might has prevailed in the past, it is prevailing now and it will always prevail in the future.

China is able to get away with it because they are the most powerful entity in the world after the US. You can't simply invade a country like in the past after the discovery of nuclear weapons. You can't sanction and isolate it because the Chinese economy is so strong that you simply can't isolate it like you could do with less powerful countries. So thinking organisations like the UN will resolve global conflicts is a pipe dream. The best way to not get the wrong end of the stick in global conflicts is to make sure you're mighty enough that others can't bully you around. It might be a very simplistic answer but at the end of the day, only the fittest survive in the world.
Click to expand...

I agree, global economic and nuclear power dictates most things nowadays.

Sooner or later, a major inevitable conflict will rise, and it will change the course of power as we define it.

I really hope we don't get to see such a time.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Well you would assume anyone taking loans will have to agree to the lender's terms, not make up their own. If Chinese investment is too costly, Pakistan should look for alternative source.
Click to expand...

Pakistan will sink itself if we go for more loans and debts.

Foreign investment is another thing, but taking billions of dollars worth of loans is incredibly costly.

We need to face the difficult times in order to survive for longer. Yes, we will be under a lot of pressure, and life will be difficult for a few years, but once we surpass that struggle, we won't have to be dependent on any country for loans.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
China can't make Pakistan do anything. CPEC is a huge project which will enable trade across the whole eastern hemisphere. Pakistan is hardly the only country involved, it is a huge project involving large swathes of Asia and beyond. If India wants to offer a better alternative the opportunity is there, otherwise Pakistan will look at other options.
Click to expand...

A transport infrastructure doesn't have all that much value in the modern world, this is not the 15th century anymore. Trade is already "enabled" across the "whole eastern hemisphere". The game now is manufacturing.

China built a port for SL, and it turned out that it was not needed, so SL defaulted and as [MENTION=130076]PetroDollars[/MENTION] said, China ended up owning the port.
 
cricketjoshila said:
The world isnt limited to pakistanis. Pakistan has zero leverage against India and that shows in Imran khan's rants.
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India has zero leverage against Pakistan. You have a population of 1.3b , yet no seat on the UNSC.

China doesnt need justify anything to Indians. Now they are building permanent bases near the Indian border, its best for India not to upset the dragon.
 
KingKhanWC said:
India has zero leverage against Pakistan. You have a population of 1.3b , yet no seat on the UNSC.

China doesnt need justify anything to Indians. Now they are building permanent bases near the Indian border, its best for India not to upset the dragon.
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We do not survive on Chinese money that we will care about upsetting or not upsetting them.
 
Napa said:
A transport infrastructure doesn't have all that much value in the modern world, this is not the 15th century anymore. Trade is already "enabled" across the "whole eastern hemisphere". The game now is manufacturing.

China built a port for SL, and it turned out that it was not needed, so SL defaulted and as [MENTION=130076]PetroDollars[/MENTION] said, China ended up owning the port.
Click to expand...

Tell that to the UK govt. Prices are already rising along with delivery costs since Brexit due to a shortage of HGV drivers who have all packed up and gone back to eastern Europe.
 
I just read about the owning of Sri Lanka port and i will say, it's a dangerous sign.

Pakistanis should hope that the debts from China (whatever amount that is) isn't defaulted otherwise no one knows how the negotiation will be. And do hope that it won't be IK who will be carrying the negotiation when the time comes.

worrying times ahead for Pakistan.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Pakistanis are worried about Indian laws, Indian government, freedom of Indian people, Covid in India etc etc. We are also reciprocating.
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It's other way round, Indians come to Pakistan forums and media sites to peddle their propaganda and it is we who are reciprocating. Why only Indians take such interest in Pakistan affairs otherwise? Why don't we see Chinese, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans or Afghans posting on here non-stop telling us what a bad way Pakistan is in?
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
It's other way round, Indians come to Pakistan forums and media sites to peddle their propaganda and it is we who are reciprocating. Why only Indians take such interest in Pakistan affairs otherwise? Why don't we see Chinese, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans or Afghans posting on here non-stop telling us what a bad way Pakistan is in?
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I suspect most of them wish they were Pakistani's
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
It's other way round, Indians come to Pakistan forums and media sites to peddle their propaganda and it is we who are reciprocating. Why only Indians take such interest in Pakistan affairs otherwise? Why don't we see Chinese, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans or Afghans posting on here non-stop telling us what a bad way Pakistan is in?
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be a Pakistani or Indian first and you'll get your answer. this love hate relationship is hard to fathom for others.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
It's other way round, Indians come to Pakistan forums and media sites to peddle their propaganda and it is we who are reciprocating. Why only Indians take such interest in Pakistan affairs otherwise? Why don't we see Chinese, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans or Afghans posting on here non-stop telling us what a bad way Pakistan is in?
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That's just the tip of the iceberg. Go to any international forum, Facebook article, etc and open any article related to Pakistan that has nothing to do with India. It's full of negative comments from Indians. Same thing on YouTube. They will even try to drag Pakistan in a negative way when India is mentioned negatively but Pakistan isn't, they will go like "how come Pakistan isn't mentioned here???".

I mean, they have an entire apparatus doing propaganda and fake news against Pakistan, called Srivastava group, and Indians themselvses propagate that fake news further.

Honestly, I haven't seen such angry people before in this much quantity. Even when they are arguing amongst themselves about Modi, BJP, Muslims, etc, the anger is through the roof. No surprises that they are so down low in happiness ratings.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Tell that to the UK govt. Prices are already rising along with delivery costs since Brexit due to a shortage of HGV drivers who have all packed up and gone back to eastern Europe.
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I never said that infrastructure is not important or that sector may not face temporary shortages.

I said that building infrastructure which is not needed will not lead to economic growth because either modern manufacturing industries to not exist or alternative infrastructure already exist.

Just ask the Sri Lankans how the Hambantota port worked out for them?
 
Napa said:
I never said that infrastructure is not important or that sector may not face temporary shortages.

I said that building infrastructure which is not needed will not lead to economic growth because either modern manufacturing industries to not exist or alternative infrastructure already exist.

Just ask the Sri Lankans how the Hambantota port worked out for them?
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What is alternative to motorways and railways to transport goods? If you mean 1-2 lane highways that go through small towns and cities, and railways that hasn't been upgraded in 70+ years, please tell me if western countries do it the same way. A good motorway network and railway network is necessary to facilitate movements of goods. It's not enough on its own, but it's a requirement.
 
ahsan17 said:
What is alternative to motorways and railways to transport goods? If you mean 1-2 lane highways that go through small towns and cities, and railways that hasn't been upgraded in 70+ years, please tell me if western countries do it the same way. A good motorway network and railway network is necessary to facilitate movements of goods. It's not enough on its own, but it's a requirement.
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Alternate trading routes (mainly sea lanes) already exist.

If modern industries are not developed, then there will be nothing to transport. The development of modern industries for Pakistan is not being held back by the lack of transport infrastructure, it is being held back by lack of FDI by US/European/Japanese multinationals. FDI by these firms have modernized the economies of China, South Korea, Malaysia, Taiwan etc.

Figure out why Pakistan receives about zero FDI from US/European/Japanese multinationals compared to $80 billion a year for India. Once you start getting $15 billion FDI from US/European/Japanese multinationals Pakistan's economy will take off like a rocket.

Anything you do with China won't make your economy better, they will just suck you dry.
 
Stick to the thread title.
 
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