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A number #1 position India is happy to lose

Varun

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The good news is that India is steadily moving down the poverty index. Nigeria overtook India as the country with the largest number of extreme poor and at end of May 2018, Nigeria had about 87 million people living in extreme poverty, as compared with India’s 73 million, according to a recent Brookings report.

Extreme poverty in Nigeria is growing by 12 people every two minutes, or six every minute. Bit in India, it is on a decline with close to 44 Indians escaping extreme poverty every minute, as per the World Poverty Clock. Currently, 5.3 per cent of Indians live in extreme poverty but the country is well on its way of ending this by meeting its sustainable development goals by 2030.

With 14 of the 18 countries in the world, where the number of extremely poor people are rising, being in Africa, the number of poor in the continent will see an increase equivalent to the population of Pune, with an addition of 3.2 million people by the end of 2018. Unlike India, several countries are falling behind targets in meeting their sustainable development goals. This means that global goals on eradicating extreme poverty will need to be revisited with a focus on helping Africa.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...dia-is-happy-to-lose/articleshow/64744866.cms

Pasting a couple of interesting maps and charts on this below. Nigeria despite all the oil wealth sounds like a shocking place to live - and by 2050, will have more people than the USA in a country the size of...a single US state!

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Pakistan and Sri Lanka the only countries in the subcontinent with no extreme poverty!!
 
India can learn from Pakistan...... how on earth did they manage to get no extreme poverty!

Is it something to do with the lack of censuses in Pakistan over the years?
 
India can learn from Pakistan...... how on earth did they manage to get no extreme poverty!

India is actually on track already and at current rate will reduce poverty to less than 3% by 2020. That is over 28m people will escape poverty in the next 1.5 years.

If development continues at the same rate, by 2030 only 0.1% of Indian population will be in extreme poverty.
 
Can you explain the remark?

The fact is India accounts for 40% of the worlds extreme poverty. Do not think there is anything to defend here or even compare with Pakistan. That is a blot on India and it needs to be fixed.

We are working on it, and it looks like we will improve in the long run. Whether Pakistan has lower poverty levels or not should change our judgement about where we are.
 
Can you explain the remark?

India: 1,354,915,719
Pakistan: 201,035,367

Difference = 1,153,880,352 ~ One point frikkin' one five billion people.

I understand they're a smaller country than us, but still...
 
India is actually on track already and at current rate will reduce poverty to less than 3% by 2020. That is over 28m people will escape poverty in the next 1.5 years.

If development continues at the same rate, by 2030 only 0.1% of Indian population will be in extreme poverty.

You cannot take absolute numbers because of the huge population. Thats why we have to talk about the percentage of population.
 
India: 1,354,915,719
Pakistan: 201,035,367

Difference = 1,153,880,352 ~ One point frikkin' one five billion people.

I understand they're a smaller country than us, but still...

However, according to the latest available official statistics, almost 30% of Pakistanis were living below poverty line of Rs3,030 per adult per month in 2013. This translates to roughly 59 million in absolute terms. The poverty line used by the government is totally absurd. How can we consider an adult as not poor who earns Rs3,030 per month? This casts serious doubts on the poverty rate reported by the government.

A more reasonable poverty line can be the international poverty line of $2 per day. As per this poverty line, a whopping 60% of Pakistanis are poor.


From the link i posted.
 
However, according to the latest available official statistics, almost 30% of Pakistanis were living below poverty line of Rs3,030 per adult per month in 2013. This translates to roughly 59 million in absolute terms. The poverty line used by the government is totally absurd. How can we consider an adult as not poor who earns Rs3,030 per month? This casts serious doubts on the poverty rate reported by the government.

A more reasonable poverty line can be the international poverty line of $2 per day. As per this poverty line, a whopping 60% of Pakistanis are poor.


From the link i posted.

The report posted by OP, takes into account extreme poverty. Extreme Poverty is not just income related. Income is one of the aspects but other aspects such as child mortality, availability of sanitation, education level etc are also taken into account for calculating the extreme poverty index.

This truly looks like a better way of measuring poverty than just a $2/day number. Even if you earn $2 a day, but have no access to sanitation or education, it doesnt count for much.

5% of India's population lives in extreme poverty. 2.2% of Pakistan's. 40% of the world's extreme poor live in India.

Surely Pakistan is doing much better there.

Couple of infographics to show the detials

https://www.ophi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/INFOGRAPHIC.pdf

https://www.ophi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Infographic_destitution.pdf
 
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The report posted by OP, takes into account extreme poverty. Extreme Poverty is not just income related. Income is one of the aspects but other aspects such as child mortality, availability of sanitation, education level etc are also taken into account for calculating the extreme poverty index.

This truly looks like a better way of measuring poverty than just a $2/day number. Even if you earn $2 a day, but have no access to sanitation or education, it doesnt count for much.

5% of India's population lives in extreme poverty. 2.2% of Pakistan's. 40% of the world's extreme poor live in India.

Surely Pakistan is doing much better there.

Couple of infographics to show the detials

https://www.ophi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/INFOGRAPHIC.pdf

https://www.ophi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Infographic_destitution.pdf

What you are talking about is multidimensional poverty rate.

Extreme poverty is below the international poverty line which is below $2 per day.

The article posted by me says percentage wise Pakistan has a much larger population below $2 per day.
 
The report posted by OP, takes into account extreme poverty. Extreme Poverty is not just income related. Income is one of the aspects but other aspects such as child mortality, availability of sanitation, education level etc are also taken into account for calculating the extreme poverty index.

This truly looks like a better way of measuring poverty than just a $2/day number. Even if you earn $2 a day, but have no access to sanitation or education, it doesnt count for much.

5% of India's population lives in extreme poverty. 2.2% of Pakistan's. 40% of the world's extreme poor live in India.

Surely Pakistan is doing much better there.

Couple of infographics to show the detials

https://www.ophi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/INFOGRAPHIC.pdf

https://www.ophi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Infographic_destitution.pdf

Is this year 2006???
Why do Pakistanis love to quote stats from the past?
 
I don't care if SL has a low poverty rate but its still a crap place and no one should waste their money to go there for vacations. No disrespect to SL because Pakistan aint better than that
 
I don't care if SL has a low poverty rate but its still a crap place and no one should waste their money to go there for vacations. No disrespect to SL because Pakistan aint better than that

Why do you think so? I think their beaches are great, people are reasonably friendly, and the drinks flow smoothly. This is of course, from the perspective of a tourist - what were you suggesting?
 
Why do you think so? I think their beaches are great, people are reasonably friendly, and the drinks flow smoothly. This is of course, from the perspective of a tourist - what were you suggesting?

Bangladesh has one of the longest beach in the world. Cox's Bazar.
 
do people really think nigeria is ahead of india, i do agree pakistan have deliberately messed up the number but so have india.


Yemen in in yellow?? its current situation i dont thinks so, no chile or peru
 
Maybe one day India will be the sort of place people will fight to get into rather than escape from, then we won't need these comparisons with Pakistan. Just imagine if we were comparing with Australia or USA instead, wouldn't that be something?
 
Maybe one day India will be the sort of place people will fight to get into rather than escape from, then we won't need these comparisons with Pakistan. Just imagine if we were comparing with Australia or USA instead, wouldn't that be something?

India should be compared with China, no other country. Only China has more humans than India. I can say that the per capita income of my family is greater than per capita income of any country, but it means nothing when other countries are responsible for more humans than me.
 
Can we work towards constructive steps to defeat poverty in our region or are we happy discussing like fat chicks in figuring out who weights more?
 
Can we work towards constructive steps to defeat poverty in our region or are we happy discussing like fat chicks in figuring out who weights more?

Please tell what steps you are taking to defeat poverty, and we will try to follow.
 
Please tell what steps you are taking to defeat poverty, and we will try to follow.

I don't have any practical steps right now besides the dream of getting filthy rich and then helping out in my local community and taking things from there. However that's a long way ahead atm.

Hence why I said let's work towards constructive steps which contains the part where we figure out which steps can be taken. The thing is when I open threads like this I come with a curious mindset hoping to learn something new about an issue or an idea which might be worth implementing. I consider people on here to be more educated and resourceful than the average person from our region. That's why it is even more disappointing to see that all our energy and brain power is being wasted in ego fights and feel-good posts.

I think I just might be too naive and expect too much from random people on the internet but I don't know any appropriate place to follow a discussion on these issues.
 
I don't have any practical steps right now besides the dream of getting filthy rich and then helping out in my local community and taking things from there. However that's a long way ahead atm.

Hence why I said let's work towards constructive steps which contains the part where we figure out which steps can be taken. The thing is when I open threads like this I come with a curious mindset hoping to learn something new about an issue or an idea which might be worth implementing. I consider people on here to be more educated and resourceful than the average person from our region. That's why it is even more disappointing to see that all our energy and brain power is being wasted in ego fights and feel-good posts.

I think I just might be too naive and expect too much from random people on the internet but I don't know any appropriate place to follow a discussion on these issues.

You are looking for ideas at the wrong place. This is Time Pass ( I am sure you know what it means). Although the discussion of international politics may give one the impression that diplomats are having a parley.
 
However, according to the latest available official statistics, almost 30% of Pakistanis were living below poverty line of Rs3,030 per adult per month in 2013. This translates to roughly 59 million in absolute terms. The poverty line used by the government is totally absurd. How can we consider an adult as not poor who earns Rs3,030 per month? This casts serious doubts on the poverty rate reported by the government.

A more reasonable poverty line can be the international poverty line of $2 per day. As per this poverty line, a whopping 60% of Pakistanis are poor.


From the link i posted.
You're making it sound like its a competition. It's not. When you (and your family) are in that poverty bracket, extreme or not, no matter how the threshold line is arrived at, and regardless which part of the world you live in, what matters is that your and your family's situation is dire.

Lets just say for arguments sake, if Pakistan's poverty rate was 10 x that of India's, would that make you feel better? Would that make you jump up and down with joy? Because that's how it's coming across.

Fact of the matter is that, as the thread is about India, then regardless of what the percentages are for Pakistan or any other country, there are over 70 million people in India whose day-to-day lives are below the very minimum standards they should be. That should be making all of us sad. And none should be gloating over who's percentages are lower or higher.
 
So now we are boasting about where the poorest people in the world live!. There are hundred's of million's of poor people living the the entire sub continent! These people don't give a damn about there nationality at all but are worried where their next meal is coming from. Sad to see that they are being made in to a competition by those who have access to brilliant food and clean drinking water whenever they want until their belly rumbles.
 
Surprised to see Gujarat in there tbh.

I think its a lot to do with the education levels of women. BIMARU states obviously have lower education levels across men and women. Gujarati women are also not know to be the most educated.

What I am surprised at is the low fertility rate of Haryana. No state (after BIMARU ones) treats its women worse than Haryana. Was expecting higher fertility rates there.

Also a bit surprised by Assam being high. Could be the effect the of illegal immigration.
 
I don't care if SL has a low poverty rate but its still a crap place and no one should waste their money to go there for vacations. No disrespect to SL because Pakistan aint better than that

Disagree . its a much visit place imo , good beaches , sea food and people are very sweet . Colombo is good for a couple of says stay as well , very active night life .
In fact you dont waste much money in SL as its very cheap .
 
You're making it sound like its a competition. It's not. When you (and your family) are in that poverty bracket, extreme or not, no matter how the threshold line is arrived at, and regardless which part of the world you live in, what matters is that your and your family's situation is dire.

Lets just say for arguments sake, if Pakistan's poverty rate was 10 x that of India's, would that make you feel better? Would that make you jump up and down with joy? Because that's how it's coming across.

Fact of the matter is that, as the thread is about India, then regardless of what the percentages are for Pakistan or any other country, there are over 70 million people in India whose day-to-day lives are below the very minimum standards they should be. That should be making all of us sad. And none should be gloating over who's percentages are lower or higher.

True, was pathetic to see folk point scoring over something like this of all topics. Some individuals are just heartless and lack guts.
 
You're making it sound like its a competition. It's not. When you (and your family) are in that poverty bracket, extreme or not, no matter how the threshold line is arrived at, and regardless which part of the world you live in, what matters is that your and your family's situation is dire.

Lets just say for arguments sake, if Pakistan's poverty rate was 10 x that of India's, would that make you feel better? Would that make you jump up and down with joy? Because that's how it's coming across.

Fact of the matter is that, as the thread is about India, then regardless of what the percentages are for Pakistan or any other country, there are over 70 million people in India whose day-to-day lives are below the very minimum standards they should be. That should be making all of us sad. And none should be gloating over who's percentages are lower or higher.

definitely it will be one of the happiest day ever for him :yk
 
India is steadily moving down the poverty index which is good for them, but wouldnt this happen at a speedy rate if there was peace between India and Pakistan. Can we imagine that if countries didnt have to spend billions and billions each year on defense systems. Poverty is still a shameful issue of this region I am afraid that both India and Pakistan need more money for its poor.

If any country will become poor as a result of world peace it will be the US. And we all know why.
 
If development continues at the same rate, by 2030 only 0.1% of Indian population will be in extreme poverty.
0.1% ? and that too within the next 12 years? Heck, I doubt most European countries, as well as the likes of the USA I suspect, could get it down to those levels. But keep on dreaming.

The U.N. says 18.5 million Americans are in ‘extreme poverty.’ Trump’s team says just 250,000 are.

The Trump administration says the United Nations is overestimating the number of Americans in “extreme poverty” by about 18.25 million people, reflecting a stark disagreement about the extent of poverty in the nation and the resources needed to fight it.

In May, Philip G. Alston, special rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights for the U.N., published a report saying 40 million Americans live in poverty and 18.5 million Americans live in extreme poverty.

But in a rebuke to that report on Friday, U.S. officials told the United Nations Human Rights Council there only appear to be approximately 250,000 Americans in extreme poverty, calling Alston's numbers “exaggerated.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-by-18-million-people/?utm_term=.274dc8282f6d
 
0.1% ? and that too within the next 12 years? Heck, I doubt most European countries, as well as the likes of the USA I suspect, could get it down to those levels. But keep on dreaming.

There were stats published on https://worldpoverty.io

Also, the definition of "Extreme Poverty" has had some amendments. https://www.odi.org/comment/9934-de...ty-has-just-changed-here-s-what-you-need-know

In any case, rather than hoping that fewer people endure poverty, looks like you would rather people remain in poverty in order to put India down.
 
India is steadily moving down the poverty index which is good for them, but wouldnt this happen at a speedy rate if there was peace between India and Pakistan. Can we imagine that if countries didnt have to spend billions and billions each year on defense systems. Poverty is still a shameful issue of this region I am afraid that both India and Pakistan need more money for its poor.

If any country will become poor as a result of world peace it will be the US. And we all know why.

Defence spending does play it's part (in India 10-11% of yearly spending goes to defence; in Pakistan that's around 20%) however debt servicing is the real killer - ~20% of the annual budget goes towards this in India and in Pakistan it's ~28%. Meanwhile education, health, welfare, transport etc get left behind.

These figures are frightening, esp' if global interest rates rise.
 
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There were stats published on https://worldpoverty.io

Also, the definition of "Extreme Poverty" has had some amendments. https://www.odi.org/comment/9934-de...ty-has-just-changed-here-s-what-you-need-know

In any case, rather than hoping that fewer people endure poverty, looks like you would rather people remain in poverty in order to put India down.

I don't think anyone would care that much about India's poverty unless someone posts a thread about it on this Pakistani forum. Once it's up of course it will draw attention, which was surely the point?
 
There were stats published on https://worldpoverty.io

Also, the definition of "Extreme Poverty" has had some amendments. https://www.odi.org/comment/9934-de...ty-has-just-changed-here-s-what-you-need-know

In any case, rather than hoping that fewer people endure poverty, looks like you would rather people remain in poverty in order to put India down.
If I could somehow conjure up a miracle, no one would be in poverty, including my fellow human beings living in India.

0.1% of the Indian population is roughly 1.3 million people. The OP states that currently 5.3% (or over 70 million) people are in "extreme poverty".

Are you seriously suggesting that a 3rd world country as vast as India, can reduce the 70 million in poverty, down to just 1.3 million in less than 12 years?
And that's without even allowing for increases in population?

Heck, short of a country with a relatively small population, and one that suddenly discovers almost unlimited wealth, like some of the oil rich Gulf states, I doubt any country on earth could make such a drastic reduction in its extreme poverty levels in such a short space of time, never mind a 3rd world country as vast as India, with a population greater than all the Western countries put together!

In order to solve a problem, one has to first understand the scale of the problem. Which you clearly don't.
 
'I sold my hair for $2 to feed my children'
The day Prema Selvam sold her hair for 150 rupees ($2; £1.50) in order to feed her young children was the worst of her life.

The mother-of-three had already lost her husband after he had killed himself in a fit of desperation amid mounting debts and a failed dream.

Even then, she still had hope.

But after selling her hair, she was faced with the prospect of having nothing more of value, no way to pay the creditors demanding their money, and no food in the cupboard.

What happened next has inspired people across India.

Drowning in debt
Before his death, Prema and her husband had worked in a brick kiln in the southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu, making just enough to scrape a living together for their young family. But they had hoped for more. Her husband took out a loan to start his own brick kiln, but the plans failed to take off. In a moment of desperation last year, he killed himself.

The pressure fell solely on Prema to not only earn enough to feed, clothe and house herself and her three children, but also to pay back the money they owed for the failed business venture. And for a while she managed, taking her two youngest to work with her.

"When I go to work I get 200 rupees ($2.80) per day, which is enough to run our family," Prema explains to the BBC.

But she became ill, which meant she couldn't earn as much.

"I couldn't carry a heavy load of bricks. I stayed home for most of the time due to a fever."

She was sick for three months - by the end of which the bills had mounted, and the cupboards had run bare.

"My seven-year-old son Kaliyappan came back from school and asked for food," she recalls. "Then he started crying due to hunger."

Prema had no property, jewellery, valuables or kitchen utensils that could be exchanged for cash.

"I didn't even have a 10 rupee note [$0.14; £0.11] with me. I just had a few plastic buckets."

Then she realised she did have something she could sell after all.

"I remembered a shop which used to buy hair," Prema says, thinking immediately of her own hair. India is one of the world's top exporters of human hair, which is sold around the globe to make extensions. Some Hindu devotees offer up their hair in temples when their prayers are answered.

"I went there and sold my entire head of hair for 150 rupees ($2; £1.50)."

It might not sound like a lot - the money she got might only have been able to buy a lunch at a restaurant in a large city - but in her village, Prema was able to buy much more.

"I got three packs of cooked rice, each costing 20 rupees, for my three children," she says.

But the respite was only temporary: Prema knew she was out of options, and her thoughts began to turn towards more drastic measures.

Desperation
She went to a shop where she hoped to find something to end her life. But, seeing her state of distress and realising her plan, the shopkeeper refused to sell her anything. Prema went home and decided to find another way of taking her own life. She was saved by her sister, who lives in the neighbourhood and happened to come by in time to stop her.

And then, just a few days later, the help she so desperately needed appeared out of the blue.

Bala Murugan heard about Prema's situation from a friend who owned a local brick kiln. It immediately struck a nerve: her struggle reminded him of his family's darkest hour. Bala knows well how poverty can drive people to despair - at the age of 10, his family ran out of food. His mother sold their old books and newspapers by weight to buy rice.

And then, in a state of utter despair, Bala's mother decided to kill herself and her children. She changed her mind at the last moment: the family rushed their mother to a doctor, and she was saved.

Bala now lives a life a world away from the situation he grew up in. After years of struggle, he has worked his way out of poverty and now owns a computer graphics centre.

And now, he had a chance to pay his own good fortune forward: Bala told Prema about his journey and encouraged her to find hope. Along with his friend, Prabhu, he gave her some money to buy food. Then Bala wrote about the family on social media.

"Within a day I got 120,000 rupees ($1,670). When I told Prema about it she was very happy and said that was enough to pay back most of her loan," he tells the BBC.

But at Prema's request, the fundraising was stopped.

"She said she would get back to her work and pay the rest," Bala explains.

She now has to pay back about 700 rupees a month - about $10 - to different creditors, while district officials have stepped in and promised to help her to set up a dealership selling milk.

Prema is slowly getting back on her feet, but, sadly, her financial situation is far from unique. In spite of India's economic growth, millions like her struggle to put food on the table.

According to the World Bank, India is home to the second largest number of people living in extreme poverty - classified as those earning less than $1.90 per day.

Prema has another obstacle in her way: she cannot read or write, like tens of millions of other Indians.

As a result, she is unaware of government schemes which provide help to people like her. Meanwhile, the country's formal banking system has complex rules that make it difficult for poor communities to access credit at low interest rates. Instead, Prema and her husband had borrowed from local money lenders and neighbours at higher rates - sending her spiralling further into debt.

But thanks to her community's generosity, she is able to see a way out of the cycle of poverty which has kept her trapped. Bala Murugan, meanwhile, has assured the family of his continued support.

"Now I realise suicide was the wrong decision," she says. "I am confident about paying back the rest of the loan."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-51207983#
 
India is actually on track already and at current rate will reduce poverty to less than 3% by 2020. That is over 28m people will escape poverty in the next 1.5 years.

Out of curiousity, how did this work out? What are the numbers because I really doubt poverty is less than 3%
 
Isn't the Indian govt giving free ration to almost 80 crore Indians as they can't even afford daily food
 
Poverty in India declined 12.3 percentage points between 2011-2019: World Bank

The World Bank’s finding comes close on the heels of a working paper published by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) saying India has almost eradicated extreme poverty.

NEW DELHI: Extreme poverty in India is 12.3 percentage points lower in 2019 than in 2011 as poverty headcount rate has declined from 22.5% in 2011 to 10.2% in 2019 with comparatively sharper decline in rural areas, a working paper of the World Bank policy research said.

The findings came close on the heels of a working paper published by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) saying India has almost eradicated extreme poverty and brought down consumption inequality to its lowest levels in 40 years through state-provided food handouts.

Poverty reduction was higher in rural areas compared to urban India as rural poverty declined from 26.3% in 2011 to 11.6% in 2019, while in urban areas the decline was from 14.2% to 6.3% during the corresponding period, it said.

“Rural and urban poverty dropped by 14.7 and 7.9 percentage points during 2011-2019,” said the World Bank’s working paper, ‘Poverty in India Has Declined over the Last Decade But Not As Much As Previously Thought’.

The paper is jointly authored by economists Sutirtha Sinha Roy and Roy van der Weide. The World Bank policy research working papers aim to encourage exchange of ideas on development and quickly disseminates the findings of research in progress.

According to the study, farmers with small landholding sizes have experienced higher income growth. “Real incomes for farmers with the smallest landholdings have grown by 10 percent in annualized terms between the two survey rounds [2013 and 2019] compared to a 2 percent growth for farmers with the largest landholding,” it said.

The World Bank’s paper is significant as India has no official estimation of recent periods. The last expenditure survey was released in 2011 by the National Sample Survey Organisation (NSSO), when the country had also released official estimates of poverty and inequality.

“This paper sheds light on how poverty and inequality have evolved since 2011 using a new household panel survey, the Consumer Pyramids Household Survey conducted by a private data company,” the authors said. In view of the data quality issues, in November 2019, the ministry of statistics and programme implementation (MOSPI) had decided to hold the release of the consumer expenditure survey results of 2017-2018.

According to the World Bank’s research paper, urban poverty in India rose by 2 percentage point in 2016 coinciding with the demonetisation, and rural poverty rose by 10 basis points in 2019, coinciding with a slowdown in the economy. “We detect two incidences of rising poverty in our period of analysis: urban poverty rose by 2 percentage points in 2016 during the demonetisation event and fell sharply thereafter; and, rural poverty rose by 10 basis points in 2019 likely due to a growth slowdown,” the paper said.

The paper also talked about consumption inequality. “We observe a slight moderation in consumption inequality since 2011, but by a margin smaller than what is reported in the unreleased NSS-2017 survey. Finally, the extent of poverty reduction during 2015-2019 is estimated to be notably lower than earlier projections based on growth in private final consumption expenditure reported in national account statistics,” the authors said.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/poverty-in-india-declined-12-3-percentage-points-between-2011-2019-world-bank-101650184565540.html
 
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