A picture says a 1000 words

[Syed1]

 

[Lonewarrior]

which any kind of propaganda or long essays of verbal diarrhea cant deny.

 

[Thomaskutty]

Nice pic. People should express what they feel peacefully, for or against, and I like that.

Now, if that person were a Baloch expressing this sentiment, he'd be shot dead and buried in a ditch in Quetta somewhere.

 

[Syed1]

Nice pic. People should express what they feel peacefully, for or against, and I like that.

Now, if that person were a Baloch expressing this sentiment, he'd be shot dead and buried in a ditch in Quetta somewhere.

Yes because there is an active separatist movement going on in Baluchistan and 700,000 troops are posted there, right?

 

[nextover666666]

Nice pic. People should express what they feel peacefully, for or against, and I like that.

Now, if that person were a Baloch expressing this sentiment, he'd be shot dead and buried in a ditch in Quetta somewhere.

Or if a Sikh would express his dream of a Khalistan he would be shot too right

Or if Muslims would refuse to say Jai Shri Ram he would be burned alive right

 

[xbronze]

Yes because there is an active separatist movement going on in Baluchistan and 700,000 troops are posted there, right?


A typical, worthless Indian post.

Friend, if you call this an active separatist movement, then you sure haven't seen how volcanic the situation was in the early to mid nineties. This is a walk in the park, in comparison.

There will always be a few misguided youth in every society.

If after seventy years of supporting the Kashmir cause, our Pakistani friends have this picture to hold as their progress report card (besides losing half their country in 1971), then I for one will agree with the title of this thread, 'A picture speaks a 1000 words'.

In this case, this picture says, 'How ineffective Pakistani support for Kashmir has been over 70 years'.

 

[slipcatch]

Friend, if you call this an active separatist movement, then you sure haven't seen how volcanic the situation was in the early to mid nineties. This is a walk in the park, in comparison.

There will always be a few misguided youth in every society.

If after seventy years of supporting the Kashmir cause, our Pakistani friends have this picture to hold as their progress report card (besides losing half their country in 1971), then I for one will agree with the title of this thread, 'A picture speaks a 1000 words'.

In this case, this picture says, 'How ineffective Pakistani support for Kashmir has been over 70 years'.

Few?

Do you intentionally keep your head buried under the sand or are you pretending to be naive ?

 

[Major]

to be honest, we are no different in such matter aswell.


If a balochi or anyone else did this, our response would be for him to go back.

At the end of the day, we are both the same.

 

[Mamoon]

You have to feel sorry for the people of Kashmir. They are being squashed by the self-interests of two states.

The Indian state is obviously not interested in holding a plebiscite because losing J&K would severely weaken the dominion of the federal government and would set a dangerous precedence. Not to mention, the loss of resources.

On the other hand, the Pakistani state, which is essentially the military, wants to maintain the status quo in J&K to serve their self-interests. As long as this conflict lives, they will be able to control the country.

The people of J&K need to realize that Pakistan’s “concern” has nothing to do with them. They need to overcome their delusions that our state cares about their plight because it doesn’t. They are simply pawns.

This is the same Pakistan that didn’t hold back from butchering it’s own people in East Pakistan when it suited them.

They can wave Pakistani flags all they want but they need to understand the real reasons for Pakistan’s faux-support.

 

[Azzurri]

You have to feel sorry for the people of Kashmir. They are being squashed by the self-interests of two states.

The Indian state is obviously not interested in holding a plebiscite because losing J&K would severely weaken the dominion of the federal government and would set a dangerous precedence. Not to mention, the loss of resources.

On the other hand, the Pakistani state, which is essentially the military, wants to maintain the status quo in J&K to serve their self-interests. As long as this conflict lives, they will be able to control the country.

The people of J&K need to realize that Pakistan’s “concern” has nothing to do with them. They need to overcome their delusions that our state cares about their plight because it doesn’t. They are simply pawns.

This is the same Pakistan that didn’t hold back from butchering it’s own people in East Pakistan when it suited them.

They can wave Pakistani flags all they want but they need to understand the real reasons for Pakistan’s faux-support.

You posts are nothing less than a joke. They don’t make sense at all, You hate for military is evident in all your arguments

 

[m.shah]

You have to feel sorry for the people of Kashmir. They are being squashed by the self-interests of two states.

The Indian state is obviously not interested in holding a plebiscite because losing J&K would severely weaken the dominion of the federal government and would set a dangerous precedence. Not to mention, the loss of resources.

On the other hand, the Pakistani state, which is essentially the military, wants to maintain the status quo in J&K to serve their self-interests. As long as this conflict lives, they will be able to control the country.

The people of J&K need to realize that Pakistan’s “concern” has nothing to do with them. They need to overcome their delusions that our state cares about their plight because it doesn’t. They are simply pawns.

This is the same Pakistan that didn’t hold back from butchering it’s own people in East Pakistan when it suited them.

They can wave Pakistani flags all they want but they need to understand the real reasons for Pakistan’s faux-support.

So should we also accept all the atrocities from India and remain silent?

 

[Madplayer]

You have to feel sorry for the people of Kashmir. They are being squashed by the self-interests of two states.

The Indian state is obviously not interested in holding a plebiscite because losing J&K would severely weaken the dominion of the federal government and would set a dangerous precedence. Not to mention, the loss of resources.

On the other hand, the Pakistani state, which is essentially the military, wants to maintain the status quo in J&K to serve their self-interests. As long as this conflict lives, they will be able to control the country.

The people of J&K need to realize that Pakistan’s “concern” has nothing to do with them. They need to overcome their delusions that our state cares about their plight because it doesn’t. They are simply pawns.

This is the same Pakistan that didn’t hold back from butchering it’s own people in East Pakistan when it suited them.

They can wave Pakistani flags all they want but they need to understand the real reasons for Pakistan’s faux-support.

Look I am not a Pakistani and i have no right to say anything to you but By God, what you are saying is tantamount to Treason and you could be tried for it in court.

 

[WebGuru]

So should we also accept all the atrocities from India and remain silent?

He is speaking for himself he also hates Pakistan Army, current Pak Govt and PM so its expected he don't give a damn about Kashmiris as well but i can assure you Kashmir will get all the support from majority of Pakistanis. Even if you watch our media and social media or any channel Kashmir is getting 24/7 coverage and our foreign office is super active mode.

 

[moghul]

Yes because there is an active separatist movement going on in Baluchistan and 700,000 troops are posted there, right?

In your dreams.

 

[Syed1]

So should we also accept all the atrocities from India and remain silent?

Don't take his words as opinion of Pakistanis. 99% of consider Kashmiris as our brothers and feel their pain.

 

[Syed1]

In your dreams.

It was sarcasm

 

[Mamoon]

So should we also accept all the atrocities from India and remain silent?

When did I imply that?

 

[Mamoon]

He is speaking for himself he also hates Pakistan Army, current Pak Govt and PM so its expected he don't give a damn about Kashmiris as well but i can assure you Kashmir will get all the support from majority of Pakistanis. Even if you watch our media and social media or any channel Kashmir is getting 24/7 coverage and our foreign office is super active mode.

The people of Pakistan have genuine concern for Kashmir. I am talking about the state.

The people of Pakistan would never have done what the state did in East Pakistan.

 

[Mamoon]

Look I am not a Pakistani and i have no right to say anything to you but By God, what you are saying is tantamount to Treason and you could be tried for it in court.

I agree, that is why I use this platform.

 

[Syed1]

Friend, if you call this an active separatist movement, then you sure haven't seen how volcanic the situation was in the early to mid nineties. This is a walk in the park, in comparison.

There will always be a few misguided youth in every society.

If after seventy years of supporting the Kashmir cause, our Pakistani friends have this picture to hold as their progress report card (besides losing half their country in 1971), then I for one will agree with the title of this thread, 'A picture speaks a 1000 words'.

In this case, this picture says, 'How ineffective Pakistani support for Kashmir has been over 70 years'.

You haven't yet earned the right to receive a response from me, first improve your level and then try again. Maybe then I'll answer your questions.

 

[Mian]

In UK and US they do a complete check on your social media history etc, I know as one of my closest friends is in the UK civil service. I hope they do the same in Pakistan and traitors like this guy are weeded out. Imagine trusting someone like him in any big role. He will sell our nation out to India or anyone else in 2 minutes.

It's all the propaganda these guys want us to believe otherwise they are more free in this country than those big countries. I know many from LUMS who talk ***** about state all day long and still get pass and endup in civil services. You know most of of our civil services toppers are coming from LUMS not NUST or any other Army Uni

 

[The Viper]

Guys let’s stay on topic please.

 

[Mian]

see, this is the problem with our country.

We feel proud about the fact that our agencies picks up people and write them down under missing persons. Infact, people have started to use such threats if one differs in opinion on online forum.

Hence, the topic. We feel proud of a kashmiri boy wearing our shirt or waving our flag and bash the indians at the same time.

But would we allow such thing in Pakistan?

The ironic thing is, a poster in this thread this agreed with what Pakistan military is doing in Kashmir and the posters have atacked him here personally. Forget about waving the indian flag.

really, one ironic thread

DHA main rehne wala bacha be ab Army ko bash kerega? Hypocrites you guys help Army businesses by living in DHA because of better living standards and then you bash Army for doing businesses

 

[Lonewarrior]

I thought Pakistan was a democracy. Didn't know that the Pak Army and ISI could just go to peoples homes and pick them up. Isn't the military supposed to remain within the barracks and not interfere with the civilian life and administration.

Don't you have Police and courts in Pakistan, or all of those institutions subservient to the military in Pakistan? Just curious.

no, we have dictatorship ,we can do whatever we want. even we can pick you up from your home, no matter where you lives, india or pakistan, with locals help.

easy peasy ...

 

[xbronze]

Friend, if you call this an active separatist movement, then you sure haven't seen how volcanic the situation was in the early to mid nineties. This is a walk in the park, in comparison.

There will always be a few misguided youth in every society.

If after seventy years of supporting the Kashmir cause, our Pakistani friends have this picture to hold as their progress report card (besides losing half their country in 1971), then I for one will agree with the title of this thread, 'A picture speaks a 1000 words'.

In this case, this picture says, 'How ineffective Pakistani support for Kashmir has been over 70 years'.

You haven't yet earned the right to receive a response from me, first improve your level and then try again. Maybe then I'll answer your questions.

No offense, because I didn't even ask you a question to begin with

 

[Lonewarrior]

no, we have dictatorship ,we can do whatever we want. even we can pick you up from your home, no matter where you lives, india or pakistan, with locals help.

easy peasy ...

remember, kulbhoshan monkey, he was chatting on social media and posting anti-pakistani materials near mumbai beach while fishing, we trace him down, we sent our BAT commandos on stealth fishing boat in broad day light. our BAT team escaped from your Blue water navy and ther radars, when our BAT commandos boat reached near to him , we caught him in fishing net and hide him inside a bag which was full of Tea instead of fishes. thn we took him to UAE port, thn we thought why dont we try Iran becoz it shares our border, so we reached to iran port and drop him off there. thn our second BAT team which was waiting for him, caught him and make him to travel whole iran , then they go to tehran on indian embassy, asking to make a fake passport for him with the name of patel or whatever, thn after staying 1 month in tehran in 5 star hotel, our BAT team drop him on pakistani border and our army man arrested him.

see, easy peasy

 

[Darkrai]

There is Azad Kashmir, loves Pakistan and supports Pakistan army, and then there is IOK, hates India and wants freedom.

I'm thankful for being born in Azad Kashmir, and not in iOK.

I wish the best for people in IOK. Stay strong and keep fighting.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Azad Kashmiris have certain issues with Pakistan in terms of development, employment, etc.. in their areas, but in their hearts they know they are Pakistanis and love Pakistan.

Pak military doesnt need to sit 700,000 personnel to keep Azad Kashmiris in control, because they are Pakistanis themselves.

On the other hand, Indian occupied kashmiris, despite having more development still hate India.

The lesson here is, respect means more than money to some people.

Indians unfortunately never respected Kashmiris, therefore will never win their hearts and minds.

 

[xbronze]

Azad Kashmiris have certain issues with Pakistan in terms of development, employment, etc.. in their areas, but in their hearts they know they are Pakistanis and love Pakistan.

Pak military doesnt need to sit 700,000 personnel to keep Azad Kashmiris in control, because they are Pakistanis themselves.

On the other hand, Indian occupied kashmiris, despite having more development still hate India.

The lesson here is, respect means more than money to some people.

Indians unfortunately never respected Kashmiris, therefore will never win their hearts and minds.

Interesting that you bring that highlighted point up. I have wondered about the same several time. Video after video on youtube about POK and IK brings out this stark contrast. Indian Kashmir looks so much more developed and better off. POK in comparison looks several decades behind.

The irony is that IK has been in very heated political turmoil for a large part of its existence. Yet IK is so much more developed than its Pakistani counterpart.

Why?

 

[Mamoon]

remember, kulbhoshan monkey, he was chatting on social media and posting anti-pakistani materials near mumbai beach while fishing, we trace him down, we sent our BAT commandos on stealth fishing boat in broad day light. our BAT team escaped from your Blue water navy and ther radars, when our BAT commandos boat reached near to him , we caught him in fishing net and hide him inside a bag which was full of Tea instead of fishes. thn we took him to UAE port, thn we thought why dont we try Iran becoz it shares our border, so we reached to iran port and drop him off there. thn our second BAT team which was waiting for him, caught him and make him to travel whole iran , then they go to tehran on indian embassy, asking to make a fake passport for him with the name of patel or whatever, thn after staying 1 month in tehran in 5 star hotel, our BAT team drop him on pakistani border and our army man arrested him.

see, easy peasy

Yet the all-knowing and all-powerful Pakistan Army has not succeeded in grabbing an inch of Kashmir since 1947 and lost its eastern half in 1971. It simply shows how strong their propaganda is and how easily they fool the public.

In addition, the AJK that we now show-off was won by the tribals that we have alienated over the decades.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Interesting that you bring that highlighted point up. I have wondered about the same several time. Video after video on youtube about POK and IK brings out this stark contrast. Indian Kashmir looks so much more developed and better off. POK in comparison looks several decades behind.

The irony is that IK has been in very heated political turmoil for a large part of its existence. Yet IK is so much more developed than its Pakistani counterpart.

Why?

Indian economy is doing better than Pakistan's. Apart from Islamabad and Lahore, and to a certain extent Karachi, there hasnt been that much development in other cities across Pakistan.

That is another debate altogether, on how our economy isnt doing great.

The point was, despite the development in IOK, kashmiris still reject the Indian state. Why is that?

Do you actually think, Pakistan somehow brainwashed millions of kashmiris into this anti india stance?

Or do you think Kasmiris reject India, because India is forcing their identity upon Kashmiris?

If majority of Kashmiris do not want to be Indian, even a relatively better economic situation wont change that.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Yet the all-knowing and all-powerful Pakistan Army has not succeeded in grabbing an inch of Kashmir since 1947 and lost its eastern half in 1971. It simply shows how strong their propaganda is and how easily they fool the public.

In addition, the AJK that we now show-off was won by the tribals that we have alienated over the decades.

When two of your neighbors, reject the concept of your country you need to have a strong army.

India and Afghanistan thought of Pakistan as a failed state since its inception. They thought of Pakistan not as a sovereign nation, but as a nation who stole their land.

I know you agree with their way of thinking, but majority of Pakistanis don't.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Yet the all-knowing and all-powerful Pakistan Army has not succeeded in grabbing an inch of Kashmir since 1947 and lost its eastern half in 1971. It simply shows how strong their propaganda is and how easily they fool the public.

In addition, the AJK that we now show-off was won by the tribals that we have alienated over the decades.

so are you trying to say that, army is a traitor ??? [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

 

[AdamM97]

When two of your neighbors, reject the concept of your country you need to have a strong army.

India and Afghanistan thought of Pakistan as a failed state since its inception. They thought of Pakistan not as a sovereign nation, but as a nation who stole their land.

I know you agree with their way of thinking, but majority of Pakistanis don't.

Interestingly, Vallabbhai Patel and Nehru agreed to the partition of India because they thought that Pakistan would seize to exist by 1960.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Interestingly, Vallabbhai Patel and Nehru agreed to the partition of India because they thought that Pakistan would seize to exist by 1960.

I honestly wish we could live peacefully with Indians in one country, but we like our beef too much (pun intended) .

 

[xbronze]

Yet the all-knowing and all-powerful Pakistan Army has not succeeded in grabbing an inch of Kashmir since 1947 and lost its eastern half in 1971. It simply shows how strong their propaganda is and how easily they fool the public.

In addition, the AJK that we now show-off was won by the tribals that we have alienated over the decades.

When two of your neighbors, reject the concept of your country you need to have a strong army.

India and Afghanistan thought of Pakistan as a failed state since its inception. They thought of Pakistan not as a sovereign nation, but as a nation who stole their land.

I know you agree with their way of thinking, but majority of Pakistanis don't.

blackanhyellow, you danced around the point raised in Mamoon's post (highlighted above). You explained why Pakistan needs to have a strong army. But the unanswered question is what exactly has the so called strong army deliver for Pakistan?

1971 - Pakistan Army surrendered to India. Indian Army cut out the eastern half of Pakistan. 93000 Pak POWs in Indian custody.

1999 - Lost in Kargil

Most IMPORTANTLY after throwing the kitchen sink at India for 70 years the Pakistan Army has not captured 1 inch of Indian Kashmir.

So again, what exactly has the so called strong Pakistan army achieved for Pakistan?

 

[xbronze]

Interestingly, Vallabbhai Patel and Nehru agreed to the partition of India because they thought that Pakistan would seize to exist by 1960.

1. Link please? Stop making up stuff.
2. In any case didn't Pakistan ceased to exist in its original form in 1971?

 

[Finisher]

You have to feel sorry for the people of Kashmir. They are being squashed by the self-interests of two states.

The Indian state is obviously not interested in holding a plebiscite because losing J&K would severely weaken the dominion of the federal government and would set a dangerous precedence. Not to mention, the loss of resources.

On the other hand, the Pakistani state, which is essentially the military, wants to maintain the status quo in J&K to serve their self-interests. As long as this conflict lives, they will be able to control the country.

The people of J&K need to realize that Pakistan’s “concern” has nothing to do with them. They need to overcome their delusions that our state cares about their plight because it doesn’t. They are simply pawns.

This is the same Pakistan that didn’t hold back from butchering it’s own people in East Pakistan when it suited them.

They can wave Pakistani flags all they want but they need to understand the real reasons for Pakistan’s faux-support.

So I'm guessing Indian military killing, raping and blinding kashmiris is something you had no clue about

 

[blackanhyellow]

blackanhyellow, you danced around the point raised in Mamoon's post (highlighted above). You explained why Pakistan needs to have a strong army. But the unanswered question is what exactly has the so called strong army deliver for Pakistan?

1971 - Pakistan Army surrendered to India. Indian Army cut out the eastern half of Pakistan. 93000 Pak POWs in Indian custody.

1999 - Lost in Kargil

Most IMPORTANTLY after throwing the kitchen sink at India for 70 years the Pakistan Army has not captured 1 inch of Indian Kashmir.

So again, what exactly has the so called strong Pakistan army achieved for Pakistan?

1971 was inevitable. The Bangladeshis wanted freedom, they should have been given it. It was a piece of land that didnt touch Pakistan and had our greatest enemy in the middle. Bangladehis had their own language and identity and were ethnically the same in all of Bangladesh. Where as Pakistanis were made of multiple ethnicities who all needed to rely on each other due to our geography and shared history. There were some bad political decisions made there and Army carried out gross atrocities against Bangladeshis. I will never defend that.

Keep in mind though, while Bangladeshis deserved their azaadi, India supported non state actors to help Bangladeshis achieve freedom.

Now if Pakistan is allegedly doing the same in Kashmir, India wants to cry foul.

Even if we havent captured one inch of IOK, we still have held on to Azaad Kashmir. I imagine if Pak military wasnt a remote threat, India would have invaded long ago to take their "integral part of India" back.

 

[slipcatch]

You have to feel sorry for the people of Kashmir. They are being squashed by the self-interests of two states.

The Indian state is obviously not interested in holding a plebiscite because losing J&K would severely weaken the dominion of the federal government and would set a dangerous precedence. Not to mention, the loss of resources.

On the other hand, the Pakistani state, which is essentially the military, wants to maintain the status quo in J&K to serve their self-interests. As long as this conflict lives, they will be able to control the country.

The people of J&K need to realize that Pakistan’s “concern” has nothing to do with them. They need to overcome their delusions that our state cares about their plight because it doesn’t. They are simply pawns.

This is the same Pakistan that didn’t hold back from butchering it’s own people in East Pakistan when it suited them.

They can wave Pakistani flags all they want but they need to understand the real reasons for Pakistan’s faux-support.

You deserve an attention not because what you have written has any substance or to be given any respect to include in discussion but since you crave attention (trolling), is that your opinion or fact, if it is an opinion then who cares but if it is fact then can you please provide us evidence ?

Or will you disappear again to become Mamoon 9,000?

 

[Azzurri]

I am starting to get a feeling that Mamoon is a paid troll to spread negativity and hate against pakistan in general and army in particular to tarnish the image of pakistan. His arguments these days are just plain accusations without any substance. I hope Mods keep an eye on his propaganda driven essays.

 

[troodon]

A ploy to flush out terrorists? Saw on News channel a couple of days ago that Army has caught weapons made in pakistan intended to attack Amaranth pilgrims.

 

[troodon]

You have to feel sorry for the people of Kashmir. They are being squashed by the self-interests of two states.

The Indian state is obviously not interested in holding a plebiscite because losing J&K would severely weaken the dominion of the federal government and would set a dangerous precedence. Not to mention, the loss of resources.

On the other hand, the Pakistani state, which is essentially the military, wants to maintain the status quo in J&K to serve their self-interests. As long as this conflict lives, they will be able to control the country.

The people of J&K need to realize that Pakistan’s “concern” has nothing to do with them. They need to overcome their delusions that our state cares about their plight because it doesn’t. They are simply pawns.

This is the same Pakistan that didn’t hold back from butchering it’s own people in East Pakistan when it suited them.

They can wave Pakistani flags all they want but they need to understand the real reasons for Pakistan’s faux-support.

Pakistan wants the land and resources. Pak has enough people in the country.

To achieve that Pakistan has the biggest trump card in religion.

 

[xbronze]

Pakistan wants the land and resources. Pak has enough people in the country.

To achieve that Pakistan has the biggest trump card in religion.

How did that trump card work out for you in 1971?

 

[xbronze]

1971 was inevitable. The Bangladeshis wanted freedom, they should have been given it. It was a piece of land that didnt touch Pakistan and had our greatest enemy in the middle. Bangladehis had their own language and identity and were ethnically the same in all of Bangladesh. Where as Pakistanis were made of multiple ethnicities who all needed to rely on each other due to our geography and shared history. There were some bad political decisions made there and Army carried out gross atrocities against Bangladeshis. I will never defend that.

Keep in mind though, while Bangladeshis deserved their azaadi, India supported non state actors to help Bangladeshis achieve freedom.

Now if Pakistan is allegedly doing the same in Kashmir, India wants to cry foul.

Even if we havent captured one inch of IOK, we still have held on to Azaad Kashmir. I imagine if Pak military wasnt a remote threat, India would have invaded long ago to take their "integral part of India" back.

blackanhyellow, I commend and compliment you on a very honest and contrite response.

It takes tremendous strength of character to accept that one's own country was in the wrong about something, which we from India/Pakistan rarely accept, given our jingoism. I very rarely hear a Pakistani accept some of the stuff you did above with regard to the events in East Pakistan/Bangladesh.

I shall, from my end, try to reciprocate with the same contrition and honesty.

Firstly, I absolutely accept your contention that India did exploit the situation in East Pakistan, which was clearly spiraling out of the control of Pakistan. Yes, Indian Army did help form, arm, train and unleash Mukti Bahini cadres. Indian diplomats excellently exploited the stories of mass rape/murders emerging from Dakha. There were telexes sent by the US diplomats in Dhaka to Washington narrating the grave human rights crises (rapes/murders) and begging the US President to do something. Western media was agog with tales of a violent purge of Hindus and Bengalis by the Pakistani Military.

These atrocities (rapes and murders, of muslim Bengalis and Hindus of E. Pakistan) were well documented post-war by the Hamoodur Rahman war Commission constituted by the Govt. of Pakistan, and headed by the then Supreme Court Chief Justice of Pakistan (Mr. Hamoodur Rahman).

In a master stroke of shrewd diplomatic genius, Mrs Indira Gandhi decided long before the war actually started that she will use this opportunity to cut Pakistan into two. While done in the backdrop of the 'human rights abuses' in East Pakistan, the deeper military/diplomatic objective was to rid India of the perils of living with a hostile Pakistan flanking India's both sides, for all times to come.

Indians to this day thank God for a strong Prime Minister in 1971. For a long time Indians believed that the only Indian Prime Minister with ball$ was a woman.

Many now believe that we are now lucky to get a second Prime Minister with a pair.

"Now if Pakistan is allegedly doing the same in Kashmir, India wants to cry foul."

I actually agree with your statement above. Pakistan is and has been thirsting to avenge 1971. And the choice whether to continue doing so or not is Pakistan's to make. I see no problem with it. That is pure statecraft.

In consequence, it has to live with any and all costs that India shall try to extract out of Pakistan. Pakistan should not cry foul, as well in return. That is pure statecraft too.

Most Pakistanis will laugh when they hear an Indian tell them to be wary of Indian retaliation. That is because for the most part India has had impotent political leadership since Mrs Gandhi. Except for the 5 Vajpayee years, India was blessed with some of the most gutless toothless spineless PMs. Mr. Vajpayee showed a lit bit of spine when pushed to a corner, but otherwise lacked natural aggression or guile, and was content with his glass of whiskey, Hindi poetry and chicken, kebabs and prawns, at night.

So what is my point? Well, that brings me to how things may finally be about to change. And to the last sentence of your post:

'Even if we havent captured one inch of IOK, we still have held on to Azaad Kashmir. I imagine if Pak military wasnt a remote threat, India would have invaded long ago to take their "integral part of India" back.'

Firstly, let me set the record straight that no one in India ever really cared about POK/Azad Kashmir. Notice I write that 'no one really ever CARED about' POK (regardless of what politicians said, they didnt have the intent/guile/statecraft/ruthlessness to aspire for POK). Something that may have changed.

With the constant terrorist attacks that India has had to go through over the past 20 years (be it Parliament attack, Mumbai attack, etc etc) people of India were fed up of 1) Cross border terror and 2) Impotent Indian National leadership.

With Modi, Shah, Doval, things are different. I am not sure IK is upto the task. For your sake I sure hope Pakistan's Economy, Army and diplomacy, is.

Who knows, your prophetic words may get battle tested: 'if Pak military wasnt a remote threat, India would have invaded long ago to take their "integral part of India" (POK/Azad Kashmir) back'.

Hopefully we shall be around to discuss the result

 

[Waseem]

Yes because there is an active separatist movement going on in Baluchistan and 700,000 troops are posted there, right?

Problem with Indians is they have have absolutely NO idea about Balochistan, just heard some propaganda from their government and they bring Balochistan every time Kashmir is discussed. Even Khalistan movement is lot more relevant than Balochistan these days but somehow this is compared with Kashmir

 

[Pakistanian]

Problem with Indians is they have have absolutely NO idea about Balochistan, just heard some propaganda from their government and they bring Balochistan every time Kashmir is discussed. Even Khalistan movement is lot more relevant than Balochistan these days but somehow this is compared with Kashmir

They don't even know that there are two other parts of Balochistan and they're actively supporting the occupation of the Iranian side.

 

[blackanhyellow]

blackanhyellow, I commend and compliment you on a very honest and contrite response.

It takes tremendous strength of character to accept that one's own country was in the wrong about something, which we from India/Pakistan rarely accept, given our jingoism. I very rarely hear a Pakistani accept some of the stuff you did above with regard to the events in East Pakistan/Bangladesh.

I shall, from my end, try to reciprocate with the same contrition and honesty.

Firstly, I absolutely accept your contention that India did exploit the situation in East Pakistan, which was clearly spiraling out of the control of Pakistan. Yes, Indian Army did help form, arm, train and unleash Mukti Bahini cadres. Indian diplomats excellently exploited the stories of mass rape/murders emerging from Dakha. There were telexes sent by the US diplomats in Dhaka to Washington narrating the grave human rights crises (rapes/murders) and begging the US President to do something. Western media was agog with tales of a violent purge of Hindus and Bengalis by the Pakistani Military.

These atrocities (rapes and murders, of muslim Bengalis and Hindus of E. Pakistan) were well documented post-war by the Hamoodur Rahman war Commission constituted by the Govt. of Pakistan, and headed by the then Supreme Court Chief Justice of Pakistan (Mr. Hamoodur Rahman).

In a master stroke of shrewd diplomatic genius, Mrs Indira Gandhi decided long before the war actually started that she will use this opportunity to cut Pakistan into two. While done in the backdrop of the 'human rights abuses' in East Pakistan, the deeper military/diplomatic objective was to rid India of the perils of living with a hostile Pakistan flanking India's both sides, for all times to come.

Indians to this day thank God for a strong Prime Minister in 1971. For a long time Indians believed that the only Indian Prime Minister with ball$ was a woman.

Many now believe that we are now lucky to get a second Prime Minister with a pair.

"Now if Pakistan is allegedly doing the same in Kashmir, India wants to cry foul."

I actually agree with your statement above. Pakistan is and has been thirsting to avenge 1971. And the choice whether to continue doing so or not is Pakistan's to make. I see no problem with it. That is pure statecraft.

In consequence, it has to live with any and all costs that India shall try to extract out of Pakistan. Pakistan should not cry foul, as well in return. That is pure statecraft too.

Most Pakistanis will laugh when they hear an Indian tell them to be wary of Indian retaliation. That is because for the most part India has had impotent political leadership since Mrs Gandhi. Except for the 5 Vajpayee years, India was blessed with some of the most gutless toothless spineless PMs. Mr. Vajpayee showed a lit bit of spine when pushed to a corner, but otherwise lacked natural aggression or guile, and was content with his glass of whiskey, Hindi poetry and chicken, kebabs and prawns, at night.

So what is my point? Well, that brings me to how things may finally be about to change. And to the last sentence of your post:

'Even if we havent captured one inch of IOK, we still have held on to Azaad Kashmir. I imagine if Pak military wasnt a remote threat, India would have invaded long ago to take their "integral part of India" back.'

Firstly, let me set the record straight that no one in India ever really cared about POK/Azad Kashmir. Notice I write that 'no one really ever CARED about' POK (regardless of what politicians said, they didnt have the intent/guile/statecraft/ruthlessness to aspire for POK). Something that may have changed.

With the constant terrorist attacks that India has had to go through over the past 20 years (be it Parliament attack, Mumbai attack, etc etc) people of India were fed up of 1) Cross border terror and 2) Impotent Indian National leadership.

With Modi, Shah, Doval, things are different. I am not sure IK is upto the task. For your sake I sure hope Pakistan's Economy, Army and diplomacy, is.

Who knows, your prophetic words may get battle tested: 'if Pak military wasnt a remote threat, India would have invaded long ago to take their "integral part of India" (POK/Azad Kashmir) back'.

Hopefully we shall be around to discuss the result

I think most educated Pakistanis admit the army was wrong for carrying out mass war crimes against Bangladeshis. They wont deny that it took place, however some may say that although these things occurred and were wrong, the figures are exaggerated.

However, how many Indians will we see admit that Kashmiris deserve the right to choose their destiny?

How many Indians will we see denounce the use of rape as oppression against Kashmiri women in the thousands?

You said you would reciprocate with the same spirit I did, however you didnt even touch on the human rights abuses against Kashmiris.

India would have to be okay with the deaths of tens of millions on their hands if they want to invade Azad Kashmir. As this will definitely lead to nuclear war.

Not even North Korea is crazy enough to start a nuclear war.

 

[Stewie]

Nice pic. People should express what they feel peacefully, for or against, and I like that.

Now, if that person were a Baloch expressing this sentiment, he'd be shot dead and buried in a ditch in Quetta somewhere.

Baluchistan is not a disputed territory, Kashmir is... there is a big difference. I doubt anybody is waving flags of India in Baluchistan.

 

[moghul]

It was sarcasm

Sorry, it took me a minute to realize that, good one.

 

[moghul]

I honestly wish we could live peacefully with Indians in one country, but we like our beef too much (pun intended) .

Life would have been a hell for Muslims in a Hindu dominant society. Before the partition, Hindus were not the rulers yet but in Hindu majority places, Muslims were treated really badly, hence the partition was so popular among Muslims.

 

[xbronze]

I think most educated Pakistanis admit the army was wrong for carrying out mass war crimes against Bangladeshis. They wont deny that it took place, however some may say that although these things occurred and were wrong, the figures are exaggerated.

However, how many Indians will we see admit that Kashmiris deserve the right to choose their destiny?

How many Indians will we see denounce the use of rape as oppression against Kashmiri women in the thousands?

You said you would reciprocate with the same spirit I did, however you didnt even touch on the human rights abuses against Kashmiris.

India would have to be okay with the deaths of tens of millions on their hands if they want to invade Azad Kashmir. As this will definitely lead to nuclear war.

Not even North Korea is crazy enough to start a nuclear war.

The reason I didnt mention anything about the atrocities in Kashmir is because I was responding to the points in your post and your that post did not include anything about atrocities in Kashmir.

Anyway since you asked, I oppose atrocities committed against the people of Kashmir in any and all way, shape, or form by Indian forces. In fact I oppose atrocities committed against any and all civilian populations by armed forces or police or any force or authority, anywhere. I don't know about Pakistan, but India has had issues of custodial deaths and rapes in police stations, and I have always criticized it vehemently.

how many Indians will we admit that Kashmiris deserve the right to choose their destiny?

I believe that Kashmiris on both sides deserve the right to choose their destiny. What may surprise you is that, while most Pakistanis claim that India was asked by the UN to hold a referendum in Kashmir which India has not, here is the reality that most Pakistanis and Indians are not aware of (about that Plebiscite/referendum to help Kashmiris to choose their destiny).

The UN resolutions gave a three step process for the Kashmir referendum:

1. Pakistan to withdraw all its nationals and tribals from Pak occupied Kashmir.

2. after step 1 is completed, India to maintain a minimal force level over undivided Kashmir (POK+IK). India to administer law and order and administration of combined Kashmir, using local people as much as possible.

3. India to ensure that all the major political parties were invited to participate in the state government of combined Kashmir, at the ministerial level, essentially forming a coalition cabinet. India should then appoint a Plebiscite Administrator nominated by the United Nations, who would have a range of powers including powers to deal with the two countries and ensure a free and impartial plebiscite/referendum.

If you read the above points, you will understand why Pakistan is more reluctant that India to have this plebiscite/referendum/self determination for Kashmiri people.

India would have to be okay with the deaths of tens of millions on their hands if they want to invade Azad Kashmir. As this will definitely lead to nuclear war.

Not even North Korea is crazy enough to start a nuclear war.

My friend, not everything has to end in a nuclear war. That is where diplomacy comes into play. Every person/nation/leader/situation has a price. India's economic clout is expected to jump exponentially from now on. The gulf in military preparedness between the two nations is going to be larger and wider than the Grand Canyon, increasing with each passing year. Pakistan is in a precarious state already, and projected to get even more indebted. All important nations on the globe shall have thick relations with India due to its emerging economy and business opportunities. Indians are well known for their guile/cunning when it comes to diplomacy, and have almost always outwitted Pakistani diplomats.

If the mighty USSR with all its nuclear weapons got itself balkanized willingly, any country can. When an economic rot sets from within, and festers, while the citizens and leaders jingoistically dream grandiose dreams unmindful and unaware of the precarious fiscal condition within, conditions do become ripe to get a nation to willingly balkanize into smaller nation states.

Could technically happen to any nation. I just feel that Pakistan has all the necessary ingredients to end up on this trajectory. Actually it may well be on this trajectory, already.

A few rogue corrupt leaders will not only facilitate, but actually accelerate the splintering, as happened with the Soviet Union, and they shall be worshipped around the world as 'saviors' and 'statesmen', as they preside over the shameful demise of their nation. Who knows some of these traitorous leaders may also win the Nobel Peace Prize for ensuring a peaceful breakup of their nation and for peacefully transferring their nuclear weapons to other states. Has happened before.

[Note: The above is just a figment of imagination and some fodder for thought, unlikely as the above scenario is].

 

[gani999]

The Indian state is obviously not interested in holding a plebiscite because losing J&K would severely weaken the dominion of the federal government and would set a dangerous precedence. Not to mention, the loss of resources.

.

Kashmir separating from India won't weaken the dominion of the Federal government in any way. Most people who put out this argument know nothing about India.

All Indian states are happy to be a part of the union. While things may not be perfect between the Indian government and its states, anyone believing that Indian states want to secede from the union needs some educating.
Most Indians, irrespective of religion or origin, are proud to be Indian and fully associate themselves with the union. You will not find Indians pretending to be Pakistani or any other nationality abroad, unlike some Pakistanis who pretend to be Indian.

Even the Northeastern states in India, once a hotbed of separatism, have come around to accepting the idea of India.

The Idea of a unified India has survived and is thriving, much to the chagrin of some of our neighbours.

Kashmir alone is problematic, particularly in the valley. This is because of discriminatory articles like 370 which have kept the Kashmiris isolated from the rest of India for decades.

 

[daytrader]

You have to feel sorry for the people of Kashmir. They are being squashed by the self-interests of two states.

The Indian state is obviously not interested in holding a plebiscite because losing J&K would severely weaken the dominion of the federal government and would set a dangerous precedence. Not to mention, the loss of resources.

On the other hand, the Pakistani state, which is essentially the military, wants to maintain the status quo in J&K to serve their self-interests. As long as this conflict lives, they will be able to control the country.

The people of J&K need to realize that Pakistan’s “concern” has nothing to do with them. They need to overcome their delusions that our state cares about their plight because it doesn’t. They are simply pawns.

This is the same Pakistan that didn’t hold back from butchering it’s own people in East Pakistan when it suited them.

They can wave Pakistani flags all they want but they need to understand the real reasons for Pakistan’s faux-support.

Bro stick to cricket. That's where your opinion is respected.

You don't represent all of Pakistan to make such statements.

 

[xbronze]

Bro stick to cricket. That's where your opinion is respected.

You don't represent all of Pakistan to make such statements.

[MENTION=139316]daytrader[/MENTION], instead of saying 'Bro stick to cricket', can you please add value to the discussion by pointing out flaws in his opinion and listing your opinion/views so forum members can be further enlightened.

 

[rhony]

Apparently it's 500 rupees for stone pelting and 1000 rupees for holding a Pakistani flag. Guess their budget was 1000 rupees considering it's just one idiot greedy for 1000 in that picture. Go to to school or get a job kiddo. I know it's tougher but atleast you won't be whooped by those batons

 

[KingKhanWC]

Apparently it's 500 rupees for stone pelting and 1000 rupees for holding a Pakistani flag. Guess their budget was 1000 rupees considering it's just one idiot greedy for 1000 in that picture. Go to to school or get a job kiddo. I know it's tougher but atleast you won't be whooped by those batons

How much was this child paid?

 

[Mueez]

Another one which says a 1000 words.

 

[Sachin136]

 

[xbronze]

View attachment 93923

Another one which says a 1000 words.

So any pic of any injured child from the internet is now open game? Can you include the link to a news item with this picture, so we understand the context behind this picture. Was this taken in Azad Kashmir or Karachi or Syria.

Internet is wonderful, isn't it?

 

[xbronze]

View attachment 93922

How much was this child paid?

This child is playing with those men who are actually smiling. You need to give your mind some rest instead of beating yourself into a frenzy, friend. Yes, Modi did something that no Indian PM thought of doing - revoked 370.

And there is absolute silence from Pakistan.
Absolute silence from the nations of the Ummah.
Absolute silence from 'all weather friend' China.

Why are Pakistani keyboard warriors so worked up when your own Pakistani PM is busy planing trees in response to revocation of 370.

LOL...Modi is already working on the next gift to the people of Pakistan and Pakistani keyboard warriors are busy pulling up pictures from the internet to generate fake outrage, when the Ummah itself is least bothered.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Please post all pictures relating to Kashmir on this thread so our Indian visitors realise the people of this land hate you with a passion.

 

[KingKhanWC]

This child is playing with those men who are actually smiling. You need to give your mind some rest instead of beating yourself into a frenzy, friend. Yes, Modi did something that no Indian PM thought of doing - revoked 370.

And there is absolute silence from Pakistan.
Absolute silence from the nations of the Ummah.
Absolute silence from 'all weather friend' China.

Why are Pakistani keyboard warriors so worked up when your own Pakistani PM is busy planing trees in response to revocation of 370.

LOL...Modi is already working on the next gift to the people of Pakistan and Pakistani keyboard warriors are busy pulling up pictures from the internet to generate fake outrage, when the Ummah itself is least bothered.

Paksitan hasn't been silence and niether has the US. Others will make statements too, give it more than a day.

What gift is Modi working on? Please to explain.

 

[Mueez]

https://indianexpress.com/article/i...errorism-burhan-wani-death-army-4369078/lite/

Link for the interested ones.

 

[Lego20]

Yes Pakistan is the Utopian country everyone wants to be part of and have special feelings for. Truly believable.

 

[xbronze]

Paksitan hasn't been silence and niether has the US. Others will make statements too, give it more than a day.

What gift is Modi working on? Please to explain.

LOL...what statement did US make condemning revocation of 370?

 

[Mueez]

Such a beautiful kid mashaAllah.


https://amp.scroll.in/article/90524...t-victims-have-failed-to-evoke-indias-empathy

 

[Lego20]

View attachment 93927

Such a beautiful kid mashaAllah.


https://amp.scroll.in/article/90524...t-victims-have-failed-to-evoke-indias-empathy

Read the article. Why was the girl in this picture allowed to be around stone pelters.

 

[KingKhanWC]

LOL...what statement did US make condemning revocation of 370?

The US doesnt need know as the UN law states it's disupted territory. India was having wet dreams of being a member of the UNSC but cant even get the UN to offically say Kashmir is their land. The US have stated human rights abuses are being reported, this is a major slap on Indians esp those who worship Trump.

 

[Mueez]

Read the article. Why was the girl in this picture allowed to be around stone pelters.

Why were pellet guns used?

 

[Lego20]

Why were pellet guns used?

Answer a logical question with a rhetorical answer. Same when confronted with kashmir brotherhood betrayal with respect to territory sharing with China.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Answer a logical question with a rhetorical answer. Same when confronted with kashmir brotherhood betrayal with respect to territory sharing with China.

There is little to no population in Chinese held Kashmir. This was a strategic move but when the whole of Kashmir gains indepency this area too will be in talks as then there will be no security threat to China.

 

[xbronze]

View attachment 93927

Such a beautiful kid mashaAllah.


https://amp.scroll.in/article/90524...t-victims-have-failed-to-evoke-indias-empathy

I truly feel your pain. Very heartbreaking.

The good news is that with the revocation of 370, investment and development will come into Kashmir and our Kashmiri brothers and sisters can sign up for actual work instead of indulging in stone pelting and getting paid by local politicians.

It is going to be progress and peace. Something our Pakistani friends so want for Kashmir.

Also, where was this outrage when Pakistani Army was raping and murdering, both Hindus and Muslim Bengalis, in East Pakistan?

Where is the outrage when Pakistan sends 'non state actors' to foment cross border terror?

Never heard any outrage when the mass murderer Osama Bin Laden was found in an ISI safe house in a Pakistan Military cantonment, living just 1300 meters away from Pakistan Military academy, in a multi storey building comfortably with his multiple wives and children. That doctor who helped identify terrorist Osama and his family members, so that US Navy seals could pump a bullet into him, that doctor was captured by ISI and put on trial and is now in prison in Pakistan.

LOL...and Pakistanis want to display selective outrage about Kashmir.

When you have time to spare, please read up Hamadoor Rahman war commission report. This is the Pakistan Government's own report about the atrocities committed by Pakistan Army soldiers against Muslims and HIndus in East Bengal. In page it states how two Pakistan Army soldiers were preparing to rape a 13 year old Muslim Bengali girl in East Pakistan. The girl fell at the feet of the Pakistani soldiers requesting to not outrage her. Finally she took the Holy Quran that was nearby and begged in the name of the Quran to spare her and placed it on the bed. The report states that the Pakistani soldiers actually pushed the book away from the bed, and pulled the girl and took turns raping her.

This is from the Pakistan government's own official war commission report of the abject cruelty perpetrated by the Pakistan Army on the people of East Pakistan - including on muslims.

So please stop pretending like you are all saints. That Hamadoor Rahman Report (Justice Hamadoor Rahman was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Pakistan who chaired the 1971 War commission) will make your head hang in shame. No wonder Pakistan Army tried to hide the report for 8 years, but a journalist obtained a copy of it in Pakistan and outed it, and then that report was made public.

No wonder the nations of the muslim Ummah also don't want to have anything to do with Pakistan when 370 is revoked. Even the OIC insisted on making the Indian Foreign minister the guest of honor in the OIC meeting, despite insistent please from Pakistan Foreign minister to rescind the invitation to India as the Guest of honor to the OIC.

 

[Lego20]

There is little to no population in Chinese held Kashmir. This was a strategic move but when the whole of Kashmir gains indepency this area too will be in talks as then there will be no security threat to China.

oh "strategic move" then its ok for the brotherhood to take a back seat for a bit. Got it

 

[Napa]

Why were pellet guns used?

Rather than rifles, pellet guns are used as they do not kill.

 

[KingKhanWC]

oh "strategic move" then its ok for the brotherhood to take a back seat for a bit. Got it

Its empty land. This agreement with China was a major step in China helping Pakistan obtain the nuke and to be an important ally. Great call by Pakistan which is why Indians are still upset to this day.

 

[Lego20]

Its empty land. This agreement with China was a major step in China helping Pakistan obtain the nuke and to be an important ally. Great call by Pakistan which is why Indians are still upset to this day.

So, does the brotehrhood takes a backseat when it is tradeable for personal gains? Is that the same brotherhood and Ummah placards you show the Kashmiris everyday?

 

[KingKhanWC]

So, does the brotehrhood takes a backseat when it is tradeable for personal gains? Is that the same brotherhood and Ummah placards you show the Kashmiris everyday?

Are you slow? Ill let you catch up when you understand my comment referring to the land being empty. Many countries do deals on empty lands, this is not new in geo-politics.

India is surrounded by this deal by both China and Pakistan in strategic terms.

 

[Lego20]

Are you slow? Ill let you catch up when you understand my comment referring to the land being empty. Many countries do deals on empty lands, this is not new in geo-politics.

India is surrounded by this deal by both China and Pakistan in strategic terms.

Empty land yes - but the one that belonged to Kashmiris. Not yours to trade for your personal gains even if empty.

I dont have a problem with what Pakistan did. The argument can end if you shed your Ummah hypocrisy.

 

[m.shah]

Read the article. Why was the girl in this picture allowed to be around stone pelters.

She was playing inside where pellets hit her