AB de Villiers vs Adam Gilchrist? Better ODI player?

[Pollack]

I feel he has got good records in knockout s

Oh yes right. But that was not important for what I wanted to say.

 

[Kaiser_Soze]

Tests are not like ODIs.

Tendulkar of 90s had a great record in Asia, poor record outside Asia and a great record in ICC tourneys.

I wouldn't trade Tendulkar of 90s with Tendulkar of 00s who had more balanced records in ODIs. No one would with or without looking at stats.

If a player clicks in tourneys and in Asia or Outside Asia....then not having all round records means nothing.

If tests have test championships, then importance of away knocks becomes slightly lesser (though not as much as in ODIs).

Point taken..
I don't get people say he ( as in general ) has failed in country X in ODI and therefore not a great in ODi .Although he might've good record in tests in that country. It is not that he doesnt know how to bat in those conditions. If he has bad record in both ODI and Tests ,then there's a point. He might've some issues with the conditions there and therefore is a limited batsman.

The point is people forget the fact that it is a game not a written script. That is the fun of unpredictability. Also one can't therefore possibly say he is choking in knockout. Only use is to degrade him in support your favourite batsman.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Kohli has failed in pretty much every ODI knockout game in the world (barring a couple of 30s - ok CT finals was not a failure) yet the same yardsticks don't apply to him.

He may or may not succeed just like ABD.

Yes, Kohli's is infinitely more clutch than ABD in pressure moments but as of now, he hasn't performed yet he could be better than Sachin but somehow ABD is not even good enough for Dhoni/Gilly.

I mean, its totally possible for Kohli to click and ABD to flop in WC knockouts from now on but AS OF NOW, I am afraid I see great injustice meted out to ABD while Kohli is hailed as if he has already surpassed Tendu and Viv.

IMO AB edges Kohli easily the perception is otherwise, probably because while Kohli has mostly shone as a sole star in a team while ABD has always been around Amla, Smith and Kallis.

You could say AB like Dhoni didn't get to play in top order much because of the side SA have and as a result doesn't have as many tons as he should have. He's still got more than most but imo had he played most his games at 3 in his prime, he would have a monstrous record.

 

[Mamoon]

Nothing stopped de Villiers from batting at 3 apart from his own reluctance to face the new ball. Dhoni had to demote himself down the order because India had a jacked top-order of Tendulkar, Sehwag, Gambhir and later on, Kohli and Rohit. As a result, he had to evolve himself into a legendary finisher.

For SA, the number 3 was a significant problem during the early days of de Villiers' stint as captain, but he was happy to hide down the order and expose people like Ingram and at times, Peterson at 3. It would have been justified had he developed himself into a finisher like Dhoni, but he couldn't. He has lost SA many matches by throwing his wicket in the end after bringing them to the brink of victory. Doesn't have the composure to take his team home in 50-50 situations.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Nothing stopped de Villiers from batting at 3 apart from his own reluctance to face the new ball. Dhoni had to demote himself down the order because India had a jacked top-order of Tendulkar, Sehwag, Gambhir and later on, Kohli and Rohit. As a result, he had to evolve himself into a legendary finisher.

For SA, the number 3 was a significant problem during the early days of de Villiers' stint as captain, but he was happy to hide down the order and expose people like Ingram and at times, Peterson at 3. It would have been justified had he developed himself into a finisher like Dhoni, but he couldn't. He has lost SA many matches by throwing his wicket in the end after bringing them to the brink of victory. Doesn't have the composure to take his team home in 50-50 situations.

vs non minnows


AB D has a great record in all positions. Despite a small sample size, there is nothing to suggest he was 'hiding' from no. 3

Kallis left in 2014, putting Amla, AB at 2-3 would have let SA vulnerable so he probably wanted to bat at 4-5 to provide SA that cushion.

ABD is not a finisher, in fact he hardly has played enough games at 6, none below. So to expect him to finish is a bit too much, Kohli does that at 3, so yes it makes him special but doesn't make AB D any less special, he can score at a rate that can totally destroy the opposition.

 

[Khaseer]

De Villiers. Comfortably the best ODI player of his generation along with Virat Kohli. This forum has a habit of targeting specific players they don't rate to extremes.

 

[anoop]

Kohli has failed in pretty much every ODI knockout game in the world (barring a couple of 30s - ok CT finals was not a failure) yet the same yardsticks don't apply to him.

He may or may not succeed just like ABD.

Yes, Kohli's is infinitely more clutch than ABD in pressure moments but as of now, he hasn't performed yet he could be better than Sachin but somehow ABD is not even good enough for Dhoni/Gilly.

I mean, its totally possible for Kohli to click and ABD to flop in WC knockouts from now on but AS OF NOW, I am afraid I see great injustice meted out to ABD while Kohli is hailed as if he has already surpassed Tendu and Viv.

Kohli's 133 against Lanka was as important as any knockout game. India had to chase that massive total in 40 overs otherwise they were out of the tournament.

 

[Rayyman]

Abd is better batsman, but gilly was better overall.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Point taken..
I don't get people say he ( as in general ) has failed in country X in ODI and therefore not a great in ODi .Although he might've good record in tests in that country. It is not that he doesnt know how to bat in those conditions. If he has bad record in both ODI and Tests ,then there's a point. He might've some issues with the conditions there and therefore is a limited batsman.

The point is people forget the fact that it is a game not a written script. That is the fun of unpredictability. Also one can't therefore possibly say he is choking in knockout. Only use is to degrade him in support your favourite batsman.

Haha...yeah.

That's what makes the game fun.

As for Tendu, its possible he just tried to be a bit too aggressive in those countries in ODI.

Kohli's 133 against Lanka was as important as any knockout game. India had to chase that massive total in 40 overs otherwise they were out of the tournament.

That part of discussion was about ICC knockouts.

As for Hobart, its not for no reason people call Kohli a clutch player.

 

[Dark Magician]

AB has to be the better ODI player.

But that means zilch.

Because everyone will almost pick Gilchrist in ODI ATG team because of his keeping plus the fact he ALMOST ALWAYS performed when it mattered.

The more apt question is this:

Does being an ODI ATG mean anything at all, if you can't perform when it matters?

If Gilly had scored all those runs when it mattered and they still lost what then? I remember AB scored runs in the game against New Zealand and they still lost.

 

[Saurav]

People are seriously comparing guy averaging 36 with one averaging 53,similar SR?

All parameters in favour of Gilly are not enough to close the gap

 

[Ab Fan]

People are seriously comparing guy averaging 36 with one averaging 53,similar SR?

All parameters in favour of Gilly are not enough to close the gap

Different era..Gilly won't avg 36 if played in AB's era.Would be 40+.

 

[Saurav]

Different era..Gilly won't avg 36 if played in AB's era.Would be 40+.

Thats still less than 53

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Different era..Gilly won't avg 36 if played in AB's era.Would be 40+.

Which is why comparing batsmen across eras is futile.

If you still want to compare them, you can by seeing how better were they against their competitors respectively.

Gilly while a good batsman wasn't close to the best batsman of his generation. AB clearly is above the rest with Kohli not far behind.

 

[Ab Fan]

Which is why comparing batsmen across eras is futile.

If you still want to compare them, you can by seeing how better were they against their competitors respectively.

Gilly while a good batsman wasn't close to the best batsman of his generation. AB clearly is above the rest with Kohli not far behind.

Yes. That is why I rate AB higher.

He not only avgs 50+ but has an incredible Strike Rate of 100 without yet failing in World Cups.

However, he hasn't played any crazy knock vs top team in World Cups( for whatever reasons) and hence he is still not at Viv/ Sachin level.

 

[Protea Fan]

Different era..Gilly won't avg 36 if played in AB's era.Would be 40+.

As a pure batsman gilly is just an ordinary player....someone like sehwag batted in the same position like gilly throughout his carrier and avg the same like the former with a superior strike rate,still i didn't saw anyone rates sehwag in odi that high

This thread itself is absurd and more funny thing is some pudits here trying to prove otherway because AB failed in 1-2 knockout matches in his entire carrier

If all parameters are the benchmark to decide the greatness then i would like to see a thread soon titled Dhoni vs Viv richards.....

 

[The_Odd_One]

Let's check their averages against top 2 bowling units of their time.

Gilchrist averages 33 vs Pakistan and 28 vs SA.

Devilliers averages 62 vs Pakistan and 60 vs Australia.

In successful chases, Gilchrist averages 47 while AB averages 83.

Devilliers is twice the ODI batsman than Gilchrist.

 

[Ab Fan]

As a pure batsman gilly is just an ordinary player....someone like sehwag batted in the same position like gilly throughout his carrier and avg the same like the former with a superior strike rate,still i didn't saw anyone rates sehwag in odi that high

This thread itself is absurd and more funny thing is some pudits here trying to prove otherway because AB failed in 1-2 knockout matches in his entire carrier

If all parameters are the benchmark to decide the greatness then i would like to see a thread soon titled Dhoni vs Viv richards.....

Gilly is a better bat than Viru leaving aside his keeping skills too.

 

[Protea Fan]

Gilly is a better bat than Viru leaving aside his keeping skills too.

He is in a very minute gap

but this comparison make me laugh

 

[Ab Fan]

He is in a very minute gap

but this comparison make me laugh

Gilly is the greatest wicket keeper batsmen of all time and opened the innings in odis. So you gotta give the due for that.

Also played one of the best knocks in a World Cup final.

 

[sajeebmcj]

Gilly is the greatest wicket keeper batsmen of all time and opened the innings in odis. So you gotta give the due for that.

Also played one of the best knocks in a World Cup final.

there is no doubt gilchrist is the best wicket keeper batsman of all time and one of my favourite batsman. but the difference between gilly and ab is huge. if you only judge the world cup final match then clyb lloyed would be the best batsman ever.
a player like gilly, ab, and many have a career of more than 200- 250 match. and you are counting 5-10 match. then what is about other 240?

 

[Ab Fan]

there is no doubt gilchrist is the best wicket keeper batsman of all time and one of my favourite batsman. but the difference between gilly and ab is huge. if you only judge the world cup final match then clyb lloyed would be the best batsman ever.
a player like gilly, ab, and many have a career of more than 200- 250 match. and you are counting 5-10 match. then what is about other 240?

I already said I will pick AB over Gilly as a pure batsmen. So, no point really to discuss for.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Let's check their averages against top 2 bowling units of their time.

Gilchrist averages 33 vs Pakistan and 28 vs SA.

Devilliers averages 62 vs Pakistan and 60 vs Australia.

In successful chases, Gilchrist averages 47 while AB averages 83.

Devilliers is twice the ODI batsman than Gilchrist.

Lol at Pakistan top bowling unit in AB's time.

 

[Rayyman]

Lol at Pakistan top bowling unit in AB's time.

Well Pakistan beat SA a lot during that time.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Well Pakistan beat SA a lot during that time.

Its 19 games to 11 in favour of South Africa during AB's period.

Winning just 1 out of the 6 series they've played against each other.

 

[Rayyman]

Its 19 games to 11 in favour of South Africa during AB's period.

Winning just 1 out of the 6 series they've played against each other.

AB was one of the players that didn't struggle against Pak. Most of SA struggled. So the bowling he was facing was above-average. It was something like: Irfan, Junaid, Gul/Wahab, Afridi, Hafeez and Ajmal when they were all pretty good bowlers.

 

[Buffet]

Well Pakistan beat SA a lot during that time.

During AB's career against SA,

Eng W/L - 1.1
Aus W/L - 0.8
Ind/SL W/L - 0.7
NZ/Pak W/L - 0.5

W/L of 0.5 doesn't really translate to winning a lot.

 

[Rayyman]

De Villiers is yet to show up in big matches, but we all know about Gilly's clutchness.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

AB was one of the players that didn't struggle against Pak. Most of SA struggled. So the bowling he was facing was above-average. It was something like: Irfan, Junaid, Gul/Wahab, Afridi, Hafeez and Ajmal when they were all pretty good bowlers.

SA won 5 out of the 6 series. I repeat SA won 5 out of the 6 series.

So how exactly did they struggle?

 

[Messiah]

Ab de villiers. People are forgetting the monstrosity that is abd because of South africas choke in world cups

 

[Joseph Gomes]

ABD is the better player. Though he's quite underrated these days. Maybe the test opt out fiasco is affecting public perception?

 

[Rayyman]

SA won 5 out of the 6 series. I repeat SA won 5 out of the 6 series.

So how exactly did they struggle?

I am pretty they were mostly low-scoring games with batting struggling.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Lol at Pakistan top bowling unit in AB's time.

Gul, Akhtar, Irfan, Ajmal, Afridi, and Hafeez was one of the best bowling attacks.

Which other attacks were better?

 

[Arsalan Pro]

Surely,Ab De Villiers.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Lol at Pakistan top bowling unit in AB's time.

I think that may be a reference to the 2011-2013 period when Pakistan had pre-ban Ajmal, Hafeez along with in form Afridi and a decent Junaid.

 

[Ozymandiasza]

I think that may be a reference to the 2011-2013 period when Pakistan had pre-ban Ajmal, Hafeez along with in form Afridi and a decent Junaid.

Those were great times. I remember two games ending in a 1 run victory:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/649091.html
http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-africa-v-pakistan-2013-14/engine/current/match/685733.html

 

[Cricfan4eva]

I think that may be a reference to the 2011-2013 period when Pakistan had pre-ban Ajmal, Hafeez along with in form Afridi and a decent Junaid.

I believe so too but, 2 years in AB's 10-12 long year career doesn't really mean Pakistan were a top bowling unit.

In fact it'd be difficult to point out which bowling attack was best for the said period because most teams have gone through transition and lost top bowlers. However stats wise SA have had the toughest times against NZ and England in AB's period.

And on the contrary they have fancied facing India (obviously), Pakistan and Australia. SL and WI less said the better.

 

[Protea Fan]

Gilly is the greatest wicket keeper batsmen of all time and opened the innings in odis. So you gotta give the due for that.

Also played one of the best knocks in a World Cup final.

I have every due respect to gilly infact everyone has....he's one of the most liked cricketer of all time

Have only problem with this preposterous comparison thats all

 

[Protea Fan]

Ab de villiers. People are forgetting the monstrosity that is abd because of South africas choke in world cups

In 23 world cup games he avg's 63 and in 10 champions trophy matches avg 42

46,15,65* these were the scores of him in the 3 semifinals he played and 35 in the lone Quarter final match

So literally 2 failures in the knockout matches so far....I have following him closely for years,every now and then he gives cent percent what he capable of....People generally believes the other way because his country collapsed whenever a shadow of pressure is their moreover i would like to know how many great players are their who performed every where everytime against every opponents....

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I believe so too but, 2 years in AB's 10-12 long year career doesn't really mean Pakistan were a top bowling unit.

In fact it'd be difficult to point out which bowling attack was best for the said period because most teams have gone through transition and lost top bowlers. However stats wise SA have had the toughest times against NZ and England in AB's period.

And on the contrary they have fancied facing India (obviously), Pakistan and Australia. SL and WI less said the better.

I think the post was more about ABD's supremacy during the moment when Pakistan's bowling attack was excellent more than an endorsement of how good the Pakistan attack really is.

ABD smashed pre ban Ajmal and Hafeez which is a huge thing. Remember those days when Pakistan used to crawl to 250 odd and defend it?

ABD was amazing even against them though from a statistical point of view (with a large sample set), it may not be visible.

 

[honeybadger]

There's a weird trend these days on PP. People are starting to underrate this ODI GOAT

We live in cricinfo era where everyone throws around numbers with no context at all.

 

[The_Odd_One]

I think the post was more about ABD's supremacy during the moment when Pakistan's bowling attack was excellent more than an endorsement of how good the Pakistan attack really is.

ABD smashed pre ban Ajmal and Hafeez which is a huge thing. Remember those days when Pakistan used to crawl to 250 odd and defend it?

ABD was amazing even against them though from a statistical point of view (with a large sample set), it may not be visible.

Pakistani attack with Ajmal, Afridi, Hafeez, and Gul was one of the best in the world at that time in ODIs. Defended 250 scores several times.