Abdulkadir Masharipov: Turkish court jails man for life over Istanbul nightclub attack

[Abdullah719]

At least 35 people have been killed in a gun attack at a nightclub in Istanbul, the city’s governor said.

An armed assailant opened fire at the nightclub during New Year’s Eve celebrations, according to Turkey’s state-run news agency.

The Anadolu Agency said the attack occurred in Istanbul’s Ortakoy district.

Footage from the scene showed at least six ambulances with flashing lights and civilians being escorted out. Media reports said police cordoned off the area and an operation was ongoing.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cker-opens-fire-in-istanbul-nightclub-reports

 

[Pakistanian]

Turkey is going through what Pakistan has been going through, the Syria war for them is what the Afghan war has been for us.

 

[Saeed]

Rest in peace. This is becoming routine now. Erdogan needs to realize that there is going to be no peace in Turkey as long as there are foreigners in Syria. Turkey must launch full scale invasion and end this conflict for once and all.

 

[PakLFC]

Turkey needs to do there own zarb-e-azb. Seems as if terrorism that was imported to Pakistan in order to destabilise the country has moved elsewhere. Pak has managed to resist a civil war that was planned by the enemies, for that we must thank all the soldiers who have died to save Pakistan from implosion.

 

[Syed1]

Turkey is going through what Pakistan has been going through, the Syria war for them is what the Afghan war has been for us.

There was actually a very informative article written in the Turkish press a couple of years ago which had the title of something like "The Pakistanization of Turkey" and it draws comparison of Pakistan's situation vis-a-vis Afghanistan and Turkey's situation with regards to Syria. The article had an ominous warning that terrorist attacks will slowly and steadily become common in Turkey and eventually one would be happening nearly every week (as seen in Pakistan).

Unfortunately that is exactly what seems to be happening at the moment.

I hope our brotherly nation of Turkish is able to arrest the situation before it goes out of hand.

 

[cricket.mad]

It should be an introspection for all Muslims,world over. .why are muslims killing muslims themselfs?

 

[MenInG]

It should be an introspection for all Muslims,world over. .why are muslims killing muslims themselfs?

This is not a reflection on anyone except for the people who carried out this attack.

 

[Madplayer]

There was actually a very informative article written in the Turkish press a couple of years ago which had the title of something like "The Pakistanization of Turkey" and it draws comparison of Pakistan's situation vis-a-vis Afghanistan and Turkey's situation with regards to Syria. The article had an ominous warning that terrorist attacks will slowly and steadily become common in Turkey and eventually one would be happening nearly every week (as seen in Pakistan).

Unfortunately that is exactly what seems to be happening at the moment.

I hope our brotherly nation of Turkish is able to arrest the situation before it goes out of hand.

Would be hard for them. The attackers come from diverse backgrounds.

 

[Saeed]

It should be an introspection for all humans,world over. .why are humans killing humans themselfs?

Unfortunately such useless exercise won't be of much help to Turkish authorities. They have a pretty good idea of "why" and that's why they have hundreds of troops involved in a neighboring country.

 

[Markhor]

Turkey is having to learn the same lesson Pakistan has. You cannot forment militancy on your doorstep for sake of naked self-interest and expect there to be no blowback.

The Turkish establishment viewed the Kurds as the greater of two evils and adopted the philosophy that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. They allowed Daesh to grow into this Frankenstein's monster - they would be tolerated so long they're attacking the Kurds in Rojava. Turkey's Govt allowed militants to cross the border into Syria with impunity with border guards sometimes bought off or instructed to turn a blind eye. Daesh were also able to accumulate wealth from the oil smuggling trade which Erdogan's son-in-law is alleged to have been complicit in.

When under Western pressure, the Turks finally took more direct action against Daesh, arrested many of its operatives in Turkey and have allowed the US to use one of their air bases to attack Daesh in Syria from south east Turkey. Sadly, they are now experiencing the blowback as Daesh turns on its former benefactor.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

After years of allowing Turkish bases to hit Iraqi targets during the gulf wars turkey is now being used as an airpad for terrorism

Interestingly enough it was a playpen for millionaires and the elite that was attacked
When the elite were attacked in Pakistan in the army school Pakistan changed its whole focus
Let's see if turkey goes full retrd too

 

[Robert]

This is not a reflection on anyone except for the people who carried out this attack.

At the risk of applying Godwin's Law, this is like saying that a few individual Germans were responsible for the Holocaust, which ignores the combination of poverty and the driving narrative of nineteenth century German philosphy, which inspired those Germans to commit atrocity.

 

[MenInG]

At the risk of applying Godwin's Law, this is like saying that a few individual Germans were responsible for the Holocaust, which ignores the combination of poverty and the driving narrative of nineteenth century German philosphy, which inspired those Germans to commit atrocity.

Have you seen hysterical Muslim masses marching through the streets of Istanbul asking for clubs to be attacked?

 

[Madplayer]

At the risk of applying Godwin's Law, this is like saying that a few individual Germans were responsible for the Holocaust, which ignores the combination of poverty and the driving narrative of nineteenth century German philosphy, which inspired those Germans to commit atrocity.

Can we also say that the white man ,with a specific driving narrative, has been historically and is even currently the cause of most problems concerning the world?

What is being done to the muslims is not something new. It was done to the blacks to ensure their continued subjugation. As malcolm-X had pointed out, the blacks had started to hate their own skin and actually believe that there was something wrong with them.

Its about creating conditions of chaos and anger among people for Engineering a consciousness wherein people lose their understanding of what is right for them, Where the victim starts blaming himself for the predicament he finds himself in and accepts whatever ideologies are imposed on them by saviours who are nothing but colonial masters.

I really hope that muslims stop hating themselves and be proud of their identity like they were prior to the war west waged against them.

 

[JaDed]

Can we also say that the white man ,with a specific driving narrative, has been historically and is even currently the cause of most problems concerning the world?

What is being done to the muslims is not something new. It was done to the blacks to ensure their continued subjugation. As malcolm-X had pointed out, the blacks had started to hate their own skin and actually believe that there was something wrong with them.

Its about creating conditions of chaos and anger among people for Engineering a consciousness wherein people lose their understanding of what is right for them, Where the victim starts blaming himself for the predicament he finds himself in and accepts whatever ideologies are imposed on them by saviours who are nothing but colonial masters.

I really hope that muslims stop hating themselves and be proud of their identity like they were prior to the war west waged against them.

Can't generalize but blacks in America and Muslims in "these" countries are different issues,if your point was w.r.t Muslims in the western democratic countries there might be some valid points as one can see in the forum itself the identity crisis but in Arab countries or middle east none of the Muslims as such feel issue with their identity but actually look down upon other religions and even races,not saying all but there is a general superiority complex w.r.t religion and race.

 

[JaDed]

RIP ,Turkey seems to be going through its worst year in recent history but a country with so many events in its history surely they will come out of this as well.

 

[hussain123]

At the risk of applying Godwin's Law, this is like saying that a few individual Germans were responsible for the Holocaust, which ignores the combination of poverty and the driving narrative of nineteenth century German philosphy, which inspired those Germans to commit atrocity.

You argument is deeply fallacious.annihilation of 6 million jews in germany was an organised state sponsored genocide where every section of german society was partly or wholly acquiesce in the tragedy that ensued.finding resemblance of that tragedy with this isolated handiwork of some groups is a poor judgment on your part.as a matter of argument the societal persecution of blacks in US may have been a better analogy.

 

[Madplayer]

Can't generalize but blacks in America and Muslims in "these" countries are different issues,if your point was w.r.t Muslims in the western democratic countries there might be some valid points as one can see in the forum itself the identity crisis but in Arab countries or middle east none of the Muslims as such feel issue with their identity but actually look down upon other religions and even races,not saying all but there is a general superiority complex w.r.t religion and race.

My point was concerning all the muslims who interact with people from non-muslim countries. You can see glimpses of it on social media. The self-loathing is quite visible no matter whether the person is an Arab or American (whether they actually believe it is another question). Obviously the difference in numbers is always there based on where a person actually lives but internet has a far and wide reach.

 

[shortbread]

There was actually a very informative article written in the Turkish press a couple of years ago which had the title of something like "The Pakistanization of Turkey" and it draws comparison of Pakistan's situation vis-a-vis Afghanistan and Turkey's situation with regards to Syria. The article had an ominous warning that terrorist attacks will slowly and steadily become common in Turkey and eventually one would be happening nearly every week (as seen in Pakistan).

Unfortunately that is exactly what seems to be happening at the moment.

I hope our brotherly nation of Turkish is able to arrest the situation before it goes out of hand.

Turkey has a lot more to lose than Pakistan. It's a developed economy, major tourism destination and the impending possibility of joining the EU!

Erdogan has picked far too many battles to fight at once.

He destroyed whatever fragile peace that existed with the Kurdish population by letting Isis massacre their brethren right next door. Played blind when his country was being used as a supply network for arms and terrorists that helped bolster Isis!

Now he has two enemies to contend with, his Assad downfall dreams crushed, an angry Russia, a shrinking economy, falling currency.....Erdogan future rule will be dictated by paranoia at this rate!

 

[shaz619]

RIP, really sad

 

[Robert]

Have you seen hysterical Muslim masses marching through the streets of Istanbul asking for clubs to be attacked?

No. Why do you ask?

Can we also say that the white man ,with a specific driving narrative, has been historically and is even currently the cause of most problems concerning the world?

Let uis try to keep racist generalisations out of this. We can say, I think, that a Muslim is more likely to be killed by a radicalised other type of Muslim than by a "white man". I opine that the murder of Malcolm X is the perfect example of this. I think you have fallen into the usual trap of blaming outsiders, when Wahhabism has precipitated as much a Muslim civil war as a global intifada against neo-colonialism. Look not to the West, but to the Saudis for spending billions exporting this poisonous ideology.

You argument is deeply fallacious.annihilation of 6 million jews in germany was an organised state sponsored genocide where every section of german society was partly or wholly acquiesce in the tragedy that ensued.finding resemblance of that tragedy with this isolated handiwork of some groups is a poor judgment on your part.as a matter of argument the societal persecution of blacks in US may have been a better analogy.

So we can agree that a violent state-propagated ideology based on the idea that one type of person is superior to another can lead ordinary people to commit atrocity.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Inna lillah e Wa inna eleh e rajeoon.

Very Sad and terrible news.

 

[Thivagar]

Can we also say that the white man ,with a specific driving narrative, has been historically and is even currently the cause of most problems concerning the world?

What is being done to the muslims is not something new. It was done to the blacks to ensure their continued subjugation. As malcolm-X had pointed out, the blacks had started to hate their own skin and actually believe that there was something wrong with them.

Its about creating conditions of chaos and anger among people for Engineering a consciousness wherein people lose their understanding of what is right for them, Where the victim starts blaming himself for the predicament he finds himself in and accepts whatever ideologies are imposed on them by saviours who are nothing but colonial masters.

I really hope that muslims stop hating themselves and be proud of their identity like they were prior to the war west waged against them.

What does the "White man" gain by oppressing the Muslims in this modern day and age ? Please explain. I would like to know how you came up with this ridiculous theory.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

It should be an introspection for all Muslims,world over. .why are muslims killing muslims themselfs?

We have some extremists and terrorists in our ranks.

Since last 300 years they have been fed dictrines on name of religion which have nothing to do with Islam. They have adulterated Islam and they spread the radical views which were raised by their own interpretations which are un-islamic, in-humane.

These extremists and terrorists do these acts on name of Islam, on name of Allah but in actuality Islam has nothing to do with it.


Lets say if West or Christians or Jews etc etc are anti Islam and they have waged war against Islam than a Muslim is not allowed as an indivisual or as part of an armed organisation to fight west or western forces. Only the Armies of Muslim countries can fight Western forces once they invade them. And the fight will be safeguarding their country and its boundaries.


Similarly Islam does not allow any indivisual Muslim or an armed organisation to sell oil to West. Only State institites can do that. Plus a Muslim is not allowed to sell his faith to West's dollars or to get weapons from West to kill other muslims of other Sects. Holy Quran or sayings of Prophet Pbuh or Caliphs after He Pbuh do not allow a Kalima reciter to kill a kalima reciter of other sect or even a non muslim because he disagrees with his beliefs or his actions. It's unislamic. But these extremists terrorists be it be Isis or dozens other terrorist organisations they kill muslims of other sects as well as non muslims stating they are doing service to Islam.


West is also at fault because they either fund them against other groups or purchase cheap oil or give them weapons. But these extremist terrorist muslims are at more fault because a muslim is not allowed to sell his faith at any cost but they do. These terrorists cannot be termed non muslims because they are kalima reciters and Prophet of Islam Pbuh said that No One in any situation has the right to call a kalima reciter as Non Muslim and only Allah will decide who is right or wrong true or false muslim.

Islam's teachings are non voilent. Islam says that if you disagree with the actions of a Muslim or Non Muslim than if those actions as per law of land are not lawful than report him to authority. If those acts are lawful yet you feel they are wrong than approach that person and softly respectfully convey your opinion or preach your faith and prove him with evidence how what he is doing is wrong. That's it. If he changes fine, if he doesn't it's his life and He isn't answerable to you.


Any Muslim of any sect or any christian jew hindu etc etc are not answerable to any muslim or any muslim organisation. They are answerable to Law of Land and to God if they believe in One. So if any human being celebrates new year by doing anything let's say by drinking or partying or going to night club or whatever Islam does not allow any muslim to even touch those person with whom he disagrees and injuring or killing is a huge sin and a huge crime.


I thank Allah that I am a Muslim. I celebrated new year by waking up midnight and praying infront of my Lord Allah thanking Him for giving me breaths to witness another year of life and for all the blessings of last year. I prayed to Him for His help in making me a better muslim and a better human being. These were my new year cekebrations. I do not celebrate new year the way majority does or wants to do. I disagree with those practices but I have no objection whether any muslim, chrustian, jew, hindu, aethiest, agnostic whoever celebrates the new year the way he likes or feels appropriate. It's his life.

Islam has taught me to be so.


I condemn the evil, barbaric, low life terrible homo sapien who killed these people. He was a terrorist and a shame on face of humanity.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

RIP ,Turkey seems to be going through its worst year in recent history but a country with so many events in its history surely they will come out of this as well.

I hope so. Pretty sad to see a country which was doing so well just five years ago going through this. It is very similar to Pakistan's situation following the war on Afghanistan.

 

[Madplayer]

Let uis try to keep racist generalisations out of this. We can say, I think, that a Muslim is more likely to be killed by a radicalised other type of Muslim than by a "white man". I opine that the murder of Malcolm X is the perfect example of this. I think you have fallen into the usual trap of blaming outsiders, when Wahhabism has precipitated as much a Muslim civil war as a global intifada against neo-colonialism. Look not to the West, but to the Saudis for spending billions exporting this poisonous ideology.

So because i mentioned the white man, it suddenly becomes racist and we shouldnt "generalize"? Dont you think its a bit ironic? White supremacism is as much an ideology as any other extremist ideology. I was just drawing an analogy. And yeah i agree we shouldn't generalize. That was the actual crux of my post.

I haven't fallen in any trap. NOWHERE did i mention that ONLY outsiders are responsible for whats happening in the muslim world. If i have please point it out so i can correct myself. I mentioned Conditions have been created where muslims feel antagonised. To believe that those conditions were created merely by wahabbis would be naive and i am sure you are smarter and more informed than that. Even with all of this nonsense, most muslims from around the world blatantly condemn any acts of terror rather than endorsing or even insinuating support to such elements(we saw opposite in germany where there was little resistance to nazi motives). While we see lots of people who openly want countries like syria be bombarded without paying any heed to the local population. Any bomb that kills 1 ISIS man, puts the lives of 100 innocents in danger.

And lets not even talk about who is more likely to kill muslims when bombs are being showered on them from the skies. Saudis, with their wahabi ideology, will reap what they have sown. You can't expect to burn the neighbours house without it affecting yours.

 

[Madplayer]

What does the "White man" gain by oppressing the Muslims in this modern day and age ? Please explain. I would like to know how you came up with this ridiculous theory.

Read my ridiculous post again. Maybe the second time u would understand the point i was trying to make

 

[JaDed]

I hope so. Pretty sad to see a country which was doing so well just five years ago going through this. It is very similar to Pakistan's situation following the war on Afghanistan.

True the external situations of Pakistan and Turkey are similar but the internal couldn't be more opposite,an elected leader imho has taken Turkey to this situation whereas for Pakistan it was an Army general.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Talking about Isis, Ben Wallace the security minister has warned that as the so called caliphate shrinks or is destroyed, there will be a greater threat from returning Jihadis looking for revenge.

I never could understand why we felt the need to force them back here, personally I was very happy to see the back of them.

 

[The_KING]

Turkey really needs to do something to end terrorism in their country. Turkey is a beautiful country and it breaks my heart to see these animals destroy it.

 

[Thivagar]

Read my ridiculous post again. Maybe the second time u would understand the point i was trying to make

Who exactly is this "white man" and why does he feel the need to keep the Muslims down and have self hatred? The "White man" actually wants Muslims to stand up and say few word against the terrorists so the war on terror can be fought much more easily. Unfortunately he hasn't found a notable figure that is willing to do that. Nice biased post.

 

[miandadrules]

No. Why do you ask?



Let uis try to keep racist generalisations out of this. We can say, I think, that a Muslim is more likely to be killed by a radicalised other type of Muslim than by a "white man". I opine that the murder of Malcolm X is the perfect example of this. I think you have fallen into the usual trap of blaming outsiders, when Wahhabism has precipitated as much a Muslim civil war as a global intifada against neo-colonialism. Look not to the West, but to the Saudis for spending billions exporting this poisonous ideology.



So we can agree that a violent state-propagated ideology based on the idea that one type of person is superior to another can lead ordinary people to commit atrocity.

It's always good to provide some evidence to accompany such statements. Otherwise you it's a statement from ignorance.

http://www.psr.org/news-events/press-releases/doctors-group-releases-startling-analysis.html

 

[miandadrules]

Who exactly is this "white man" and why does he feel the need to keep the Muslims down and have self hatred? The "White man" actually wants Muslims to stand up and say few word against the terrorists so the war on terror can be fought much more easily. Unfortunately he hasn't found a notable figure that is willing to do that. Nice biased post.

It's about exploitation of finite resources. Global powers do not behave in altruistic ways.

However, this isn't restricted to the West but they are the most militaristic and have intervened to a far greater extent.

But we see this in the Muslim world too, especially in the actions of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and Turkey.

To ignore any of these actions is to be disingenuous and to whitewash such behaviour under the guise of "good intentions" is reprehensible.

 

[KingKhanWC]

RIP. Very sad to read.

 

[miandadrules]

Rest in peace. This is becoming routine now. Erdogan needs to realize that there is going to be no peace in Turkey as long as there are foreigners in Syria. Turkey must launch full scale invasion and end this conflict for once and all.

Turkey needs to withdraw from meddling in to the affairs of others not intervene further.

Turkey encroaching further will open a hornets nest.

They need to work on their internal problems.

 

[miandadrules]

Turkey needs to do there own zarb-e-azb. Seems as if terrorism that was imported to Pakistan in order to destabilise the country has moved elsewhere. Pak has managed to resist a civil war that was planned by the enemies, for that we must thank all the soldiers who have died to save Pakistan from implosion.

Terrorism wasn't imported, we fermented it.

 

[miandadrules]

This is not a reflection on anyone except for the people who carried out this attack.

Questions need to be asked.

To ignore the situation is to allow it to spread unabated.

 

[miandadrules]

At the risk of applying Godwin's Law, this is like saying that a few individual Germans were responsible for the Holocaust, which ignores the combination of poverty and the driving narrative of nineteenth century German philosphy, which inspired those Germans to commit atrocity.

You mean in the manner in which Western exceptionalism is being used to sanitise and justify the exploitation of foreign lands and people?

 

[miandadrules]

Can we also say that the white man ,with a specific driving narrative, has been historically and is even currently the cause of most problems concerning the world?

What is being done to the muslims is not something new. It was done to the blacks to ensure their continued subjugation. As malcolm-X had pointed out, the blacks had started to hate their own skin and actually believe that there was something wrong with them.

Its about creating conditions of chaos and anger among people for Engineering a consciousness wherein people lose their understanding of what is right for them, Where the victim starts blaming himself for the predicament he finds himself in and accepts whatever ideologies are imposed on them by saviours who are nothing but colonial masters.

I really hope that muslims stop hating themselves and be proud of their identity like they were prior to the war west waged against them.

The muslim world and muslim nations have been guilty of this too.

To ignore it is disingenuous and is an example of finding a narrative that sits well with your own bias.

What is being done to the muslims is not much different to what the Muslims themselves did and continue to do.

 

[Markhor]

Turkey has a lot more to lose than Pakistan. It's a developed economy, major tourism destination and the impending possibility of joining the EU!

Erdogan has picked far too many battles to fight at once.

He destroyed whatever fragile peace that existed with the Kurdish population by letting Isis massacre their brethren right next door. Played blind when his country was being used as a supply network for arms and terrorists that helped bolster Isis!

Now he has two enemies to contend with, his Assad downfall dreams crushed, an angry Russia, a shrinking economy, falling currency.....Erdogan future rule will be dictated by paranoia at this rate!

Just to add to what you're saying [MENTION=78642]shortbread[/MENTION] and to expand on what I said in post #10 - Erdogan has been playing a dangerous double game and it is blowing up in his face, causing tragic consequences for Turkish civilians.

One ISIS member told Newsweek in 2014 that armed ISIS fighters were allowed to freely cross the Turkish border, and “ISIS commanders told us to fear nothing at all because there was full cooperation with the Turks.”The ex-ISIS militant said he “connected ISIS field captains and commanders from Syria with people in Turkey on innumerable occasions,” and added that ISIS commanders “mostly spoke in Turkish because the people they talked to were Turkish officials.”

Turkey turned a blind eye to ISIS's oil trade. Turkey failed to seal its border, which it easily could've done, facilitating ISIS oil exports. Turks have profited at stages of the supply chain according to research from Dr David Phillips of Columbia University.

The old Hillary Clinton line about keeping snakes in your backyard is relevant here. Erdogan now has two existential security threats to deal with in ISIS and the Kurds who are with Western air assistance forming a state on Turkey's southern border. Which is Erdogan's biggest fear.

 

[Saeed]

Turkey needs to withdraw from meddling in to the affairs of others not intervene further.

Turkey encroaching further will open a hornets nest.

They need to work on their internal problems.

That's like saying America shouldn't have been involved in Afghanistan after 9/11. When a group from another territory attacks your country it no longer remains affairs of others. ISIS will keep attacking regardless of Turkish interference, so it only makes sense to go all in.

 

[miandadrules]

That's like saying America shouldn't have been involved in Afghanistan after 9/11. When a group from another territory attacks your country it no longer remains affairs of others. ISIS will keep attacking regardless of Turkish interference, so it only makes sense to go all in.

The USA should never have gone in to Afghanistan, let alone Iraq. The 9/11 attacks were carried out from closer to Saudi Arabia than Afghanistan.

The reason attacks have increased in Turkey is directly because of their meddling in the affairs of it's neighbours. The phenomena is known as blowback.

Turkey needs to address it's internal problems if to wants to restore the stability within its borders.

This isn't a video-game where you can go "all-in". There will be a catastrophic loss of life. Are all those innocents willing to give their lives so you can sleep happily that Turkey went "all-in".

Before you mention the loss of life from the terrorist attacks please answer why these attacks are occurring and Turkey's role in the greater scheme of things. Turkey is by no means an innocent player in this.

 

[troodon]

Who exactly is this "white man" and why does he feel the need to keep the Muslims down and have self hatred? The "White man" actually wants Muslims to stand up and say few word against the terrorists so the war on terror can be fought much more easily. Unfortunately he hasn't found a notable figure that is willing to do that. Nice biased post.

The big bad White man is the reason for all the troubles in Mid East. The troubles in Mid East has nothing to do with rivalry between various sects of Islam.

 

[Saeed]

The USA should never have gone in to Afghanistan, let alone Iraq. The 9/11 attacks were carried out from closer to Saudi Arabia than Afghanistan.

The reason attacks have increased in Turkey is directly because of their meddling in the affairs of it's neighbours. The phenomena is known as blowback.

Turkey needs to address it's internal problems if to wants to restore the stability within its borders.

This isn't a video-game where you can go "all-in". There will be a catastrophic loss of life. Are all those innocents willing to give their lives so you can sleep happily that Turkey went "all-in".

Before you mention the loss of life from the terrorist attacks please answer why these attacks are occurring and Turkey's role in the greater scheme of things. Turkey is by no means an innocent player in this.

You sound like some pro iran guy. 9/11 was organized by Al Qaeda hosted by Taliban, then the government of Afghanistan. Just because citizens of a country are involved doesn't mean the government itself is guilty. I am not going to bother summarizing the whole thing.

Exactly Turkey is no innocent party. The reasons attacked increased is because Turkish government let ISIS establish themselves in Syria. If they had intervened earlier against ISIS or at least keep their borders in check, ISIS wouldn't have been as stronger as it is now. That's just wishful thinking, Turkey hosts millions of Syrians. Of course they have to make sure they eventually go back. They won't go back as long as Syria is unstable.

You certainly seem to ignore all the lives lost in conflict so far. Tell Russia and Iran to care about innocent lives because largely they have caused the most destruction. I would certainly sleep happy when I see the end of ISIS and terrorist dictator in Syria. I am sure millions of Syrians and Turks will sleep happily too.

 

[miandadrules]

You sound like some pro iran guy. 9/11 was organized by Al Qaeda hosted by Taliban, then the government of Afghanistan. Just because citizens of a country are involved doesn't mean the government itself is guilty. I am not going to bother summarizing the whole thing.

Exactly Turkey is no innocent party. The reasons attacked increased is because Turkish government let ISIS establish themselves in Syria. If they had intervened earlier against ISIS or at least keep their borders in check, ISIS wouldn't have been as stronger as it is now. That's just wishful thinking, Turkey hosts millions of Syrians. Of course they have to make sure they eventually go back. They won't go back as long as Syria is unstable.

You certainly seem to ignore all the lives lost in conflict so far. Tell Russia and Iran to care about innocent lives because largely they have caused the most destruction. I would certainly sleep happy when I see the end of ISIS and terrorist dictator in Syria. I am sure millions of Syrians and Turks will sleep happily too.

Yes I must be pro-Iran simply because I research whatever I state.

The funding for 9/11 was directed from residents of Saudi Arabia with tacit support from elements within the Saudi government.

The USA government wanted to gain influence over Afghanistan to facilitate the access of pipelines. Even they said that the ruling Taliban government had no role in the orchestrating the attack but that they harboured Bin Laden who was linked to the attacks.

A few days after 9/11 Bush addressed the "Afghan people" by stating if the leadership didn't hand over the people they SUSPECT of carrying out the attacks they would commence an invasion with a resultant bombing campaign, although they refused to hand over any evidence. This is a text book definition of terrorism.

Three weeks later the War aims had changed. Admiral Boyce, the British defence minister informed the Afghan population that we will continue to bomb you until you change your leadership. A more dramatic example of international terrorism and had absolutely no link to finding the perpetrators of 9/11 let alone bringing them to justice.

http://www.salon.com/2016/07/15/28_..._911_attacks_finally_released_after_14_years/

The reason for the internal attacks isn't because the Turkish Government allowed ISIS to establish itself because of it's inaction but because it actively took part in destabilising the area which allowed ISIS to gain a foothold. The reason for Turkey's involvement is primarily to destabilise the region to prevent the The friendship pipeline (Iran-Iraq-Syria) which is in direct competition with the Nabucco Pipeline and the proposed Qatar-Turkey pipeline. Conveniently all the players aligned in this conflict according to these affiliations. Syria scuppered the deal on the insistence of the Russians to "protect" the interests of their ally.

Also Turkey initially gave tacit support to ISIS and if reports are to be believed had an oil deal with them. Turkey hoped to use ISIS to mobilise against the Kurdish forces.

Lets also not forget the support and funding Saudi Arabia and Qatar gave and are still giving to ISIS.

Where have I ignored any deaths?

If you want to discuss Russia and Iran's role I am more than happy to do so, there are no innocent parties here. But that doesn't change the role of Saudi Arabia which is by far the one with bloodiest of hands.

But make sure you substantiate what you say with evidence rather than parroting your Saudi masters rhetoric.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...s-funding-barack-obama-knew-all-a7362071.html

 

[Saeed]

The reason for the internal attacks isn't because the Turkish Government allowed ISIS to establish itself because of it's inaction but because it actively took part in destabilising the area which allowed ISIS to gain a foothold. The reason for Turkey's involvement is primarily to destabilise the region to prevent the The friendship pipeline (Iran-Iraq-Syria) which is in direct competition with the Nabucco Pipeline and the proposed Qatar-Turkey pipeline. Conveniently all the players aligned in this conflict according to these affiliations. Syria scuppered the deal on the insistence of the Russians to "protect" the interests of their ally.

Also Turkey initially gave tacit support to ISIS and if reports are to be believed had an oil deal with them. Turkey hoped to use ISIS to mobilise against the Kurdish forces.

Lets also not forget the support and funding Saudi Arabia and Qatar gave and are still giving to ISIS.

Where have I ignored any death

If you want to discuss Russia and Iran's role I am more than happy to do so, there are no innocent parties here. But that doesn't change the role of Saudi Arabia which is by far the one with bloodiest of hands.

But make sure you substantiate what you say with evidence rather than parroting your Saudi masters rhetoric.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...s-funding-barack-obama-knew-all-a7362071.html

No you seem pro Iran because you peddle the same narrative as them. Iran and Russia should interfere in other countries, West, Turkey and saudia shouldn't. That would enable to the terrorist dictator to retain power . All Salon said is that some individuals "may" have provided support to Al Qaeda. There is a difference between government doing it and some individuals. Providing sanctuary alone is enough warrant an attack. Al Qaeda claimed responsibility and it was their job to hand OBL over.

You mean Turkey organized protests in Syria and made Assad shoot protesters? The only one responsible for Syria's destabilization is Assad. He had the absolute control and had every opportunity to negotiate with opposition back in 2011. There was no ISIS and Nusra back then, they only gained territory in 2013. So blaming Turkey for that is just pointless.
As for allowing ISIS to grow against kurds? When did I ever disagree with that. You repeat that as if I said the opposite. You downplay the human loss caused by Assad on pipeline and you want to pretend you care about loss of innocents in Syria. Saudis are not masters but Iranians certainly seems to be your masters. Because I have only seen pro Assadists repeating pipiline conspiracy theories and downplaying Assad's role in massacring a half million people.

 

[miandadrules]

No you seem pro Iran because you peddle the same narrative as them. Iran and Russia should interfere in other countries, West, Turkey and saudia shouldn't. That would enable to the terrorist dictator to retain power . All Salon said is that some individuals "may" have provided support to Al Qaeda. There is a difference between government doing it and some individuals. Providing sanctuary alone is enough warrant an attack. Al Qaeda claimed responsibility and it was their job to hand OBL over.

You mean Turkey organized protests in Syria and made Assad shoot protesters? The only one responsible for Syria's destabilization is Assad. He had the absolute control and had every opportunity to negotiate with opposition back in 2011. There was no ISIS and Nusra back then, they only gained territory in 2013. So blaming Turkey for that is just pointless.
As for allowing ISIS to grow against kurds? When did I ever disagree with that. You repeat that as if I said the opposite. You downplay the human loss caused by Assad on pipeline and you want to pretend you care about loss of innocents in Syria. Saudis are not masters but Iranians certainly seems to be your masters. Because I have only seen pro Assadists repeating pipiline conspiracy theories and downplaying Assad's role in massacring a half million people.

Where have I said Iran and Russia should interfere? Once again indulging in ad hominem attacks to shift the emphasis of the discussion.

This is a thread about Turkey and it's issues, hence I would naturally focus on Turkey.

Firstly, it wasn't salon but the House Intelligence Committee which stated the it was likely that Saudi intelligence individuals were involved. Wikileaks and the Hillary emails show that intelligence agencies were well aware of Saudi and Qatar funding of ISIS as well as other terrorist groups.

What was the stated war aim before the start of the Afghan invasion? It was to hand over OBL. Then when asked for evidence they refused to hand any over and then changed the war aim to regime change? Why is the war still going on?

A little insight in to the war aims:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/23/afghanistan.terrorism11

Al Qaeda's leader was based in Afghanistan but the brain trust was based in Saudi Arabia. Why was absolutely no steps taking to dismantle that arm of the organisation?

Where have I said Turkey organised protest against Assad? But it is totally disingenuous to say that Assad was solely responsible when Saudi Arabia along with it's allies hijacked this indigenous movement to push for elements favourable to them. All the original leaders amongst the dissenters have fled the country, all that remains are the groups backed by Saudi and Turkey. Russia and it's allies have also backed elements including the regime to brutally crack down on any opposition which would not favour them.

Of course there was were extremist groups prior to 2013, these organisations don't materialise out of thin air. They were under tight control and had little avenues for arms and financial support. It was these groups which were backed by the Saudi's to hijack the initial movement to topple Assad. Just because Assad kept these groups on a tight leash doesn't legitimise his dictatorship but you simply can't comprehend the nuance of the situation.

What are you even talking about? You didn't even mention the Kurds. I mentioned them to show how Turkey originally supported ISIS to use them to service it's own needs against the Kurds and how its caused a blowback. Thus, showing that Turkey shouldn't have been meddling in such affairs and cannot claim innocence.

Where have I down played any loss of life? And how have I justified loss of life with regards to the pipeline. What I said clearly shows that none of the parties care for the civilians who are paying with their lives to cater for the greed of these global players. And because you have such difficulty comprehending who these players are let me clearly state them; Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, USA, UK, Iran, Russia just to name a few.

Where are any conspiracy theories I have espoused? Please state them clearly and I will address each and everyone.

Where have I downplayed Assad's role?

Please show a single pro-Iranian or pro-Assad statement I have made? Your childish and ignorant ad hominem are not going to work with me.

I will ask once again please provide proof of your claims, rather than parroting your Arab masters.

 

[Madplayer]

Who exactly is this "white man" and why does he feel the need to keep the Muslims down and have self hatred? The "White man" actually wants Muslims to stand up and say few word against the terrorists so the war on terror can be fought much more easily. Unfortunately he hasn't found a notable figure that is willing to do that. Nice biased post.

just like ALL white men cannot be blamed for the atrocities committed by white men who acted on the basis of white supremacist ideology in foreign lands, the same way all muslims cannot be blamed for the actions of power hungry monsters. Do you get the point i was trying to make Thivagar? I wasnt putting the entire blame your white men who are nothing short of angels.

 

[Madplayer]

The muslim world and muslim nations have been guilty of this too.

To ignore it is disingenuous and is an example of finding a narrative that sits well with your own bias.

What is being done to the muslims is not much different to what the Muslims themselves did and continue to do.

Yes, i agree that without an indigenous breeding ground an external power remains weak.

 

[Saeed]

Where have I said Iran and Russia should interfere? Once again indulging in ad hominem attacks to shift the emphasis of the discussion.

This is a thread about Turkey and it's issues, hence I would naturally focus on Turkey.
Please show a single pro-Iranian or pro-Assad statement I have made? Your childish and ignorant ad hominem are not going to work with me.

I will ask once again please provide proof of your claims, rather than parroting your Arab masters.

My childish ad hominem already worked or you wouldn't be taking time and writing long posts to me. Sorry for that btw, you don't seem like a pro Assad. Have to agree this is one of the better post though.

I do believe pipeline claims are conspiracy theories. Perhaps you would like to expand on that.

Lets get back to the topic. So you said Turkey shouldn't interfere "further" in Syria because there will be a blowback, even deadlier than now. Do you really think ISIS will stop attacking if Turkey pulled back from taking Al Bab and other areas from ISIS? I doubt it. So they only option for Turkey is to send even more troops.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You sound like some pro iran guy. 9/11 was organized by Al Qaeda hosted by Taliban, then the government of Afghanistan. Just because citizens of a country are involved doesn't mean the government itself is guilty. I am not going to bother summarizing the whole thing.

Exactly Turkey is no innocent party. The reasons attacked increased is because Turkish government let ISIS establish themselves in Syria. If they had intervened earlier against ISIS or at least keep their borders in check, ISIS wouldn't have been as stronger as it is now. That's just wishful thinking, Turkey hosts millions of Syrians. Of course they have to make sure they eventually go back. They won't go back as long as Syria is unstable.

You certainly seem to ignore all the lives lost in conflict so far. Tell Russia and Iran to care about innocent lives because largely they have caused the most destruction. I would certainly sleep happy when I see the end of ISIS and terrorist dictator in Syria. I am sure millions of Syrians and Turks will sleep happily too.

I still don't understand where ISIS gets it's strength from. Initially the impression was that it was mainly backed by Iraq's former leadership that was overthrown by the US, then supposedly their ranks were swelled by jihadis from Europe. Since then, they've been blitzed on all sides by the Kurds, NATO, Russia, Iran and now Turkey.

Their modus operandi seems to be similar to the TTP in Pakistan, which was to invite massive bombardment from previously reluctant parties like the Pakistan military and thus destruction. Now I realise these people are somewhat demented, but it really does seem to be a bizarre logic that these people work on. They want to create an Islamic state then every action seems to be aimed at goading opposition so that it is destroyed as quickly as possible.

 

[Saeed]

I still don't understand where ISIS gets it's strength from. Initially the impression was that it was mainly backed by Iraq's former leadership that was overthrown by the US, then supposedly their ranks were swelled by jihadis from Europe. Since then, they've been blitzed on all sides by the Kurds, NATO, Russia, Iran and now Turkey.

That's the problem, they haven't been the focus of all sides. Russia and Iran rarely attack ISIS.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/01/world/europe/russia-airstrikes-syria.html

Look at this map. Most Russian airstrikes are focused on non ISIS areas.
http://www.businessinsider.com/maps-show-progression-of-russian-airstrikes-in-syria-2016-7
Only important place Russia and puppets took from ISIS was Palmyra. They lost it again recently.

Turkey is involved because they don't want Kurds/PKK/YPG/SDF to control the area along Turkish border. Kurds and America is doing most of the heavy lifting against ISIS. There is no way ISIS would have survived this long if all sides were focused on ISIS.

 

[jeetu]

Islamic State claims responsibility for New Year's Eve nightclub attack in Turkey

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/02/reports-is-believed-to-be-behind-istanbul-nightclub-attack.html

Turkish media reports say that authorities believe that the Islamic State group is behind the attack on a popular Istanbul nightclub during New Year's celebrations.

Hurriyet and Karar newspaper reports Monday cited unnamed security officials saying that authorities have determined that the gunman who killed 39 people comes from a Central Asian nation and is believed to be either from Uzbekistan or Kyrgyzstan

Police had also established similarities with the high-casualty attack at Ataturk Airport in June and was investigating whether the same IS cell carried out both attacks.

The gunman, who is still at large, killed a policeman and another man outside the Reina club in the early hours of 2017 before firing at people partying inside.

Nearly two-thirds of the dead were foreigners, many from the Middle East.

 

[Madplayer]

That's the problem, they haven't been the focus of all sides. Russia and Iran rarely attack ISIS.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/01/world/europe/russia-airstrikes-syria.html

Look at this map. Most Russian airstrikes are focused on non ISIS areas.
http://www.businessinsider.com/maps-show-progression-of-russian-airstrikes-in-syria-2016-7
Only important place Russia and puppets took from ISIS was Palmyra. They lost it again recently.

Turkey is involved because they don't want Kurds/PKK/YPG/SDF to control the area along Turkish border. Kurds and America is doing most of the heavy lifting against ISIS. There is no way ISIS would have survived this long if all sides were focused on ISIS.

How true is it that turkey lended some support to ISIS to keep kurds at bay?

 

[big_gamer007]

RIP to all the victims..

 

[SL_Fan]

RIP very sad to hear.

 

[Saeed]

How true is it that turkey lended some support to ISIS to keep kurds at bay?

Well that depends on what support means. I remember Kobani example the most because it was the most outrageous one. Read telegraph link for more detail. They were not willing to help Kurds against ISIS when Kobani was under siege. It remained under seige for many weeks but eventually Kurds pushed ISIS, thanks to rebels and western effort.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11697764/Isil-reenters-key-Syria-border-town-of-Kobane-live.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/10/syrian-rebels-kobane-20141029121812288400.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/18/business/al-khatteeb-isis-oil-iraq/

 

[miandadrules]

My childish ad hominem already worked or you wouldn't be taking time and writing long posts to me. Sorry for that btw, you don't seem like a pro Assad. Have to agree this is one of the better post though.

I do believe pipeline claims are conspiracy theories. Perhaps you would like to expand on that.

Lets get back to the topic. So you said Turkey shouldn't interfere "further" in Syria because there will be a blowback, even deadlier than now. Do you really think ISIS will stop attacking if Turkey pulled back from taking Al Bab and other areas from ISIS? I doubt it. So they only option for Turkey is to send even more troops.

Turkey needs to focus on it's internal elements. These attacks don't just materialise by someone walking over the border. There is funding and an internal support structure.

It doesn't mean the attacks will stop suddenly simply because Turkey stops interfering, it's about making a concerted effort to address the real issues. Erdogan, derives a great deal of support from the religious parties and there are elements within his own circle that are sympathetic to the Sunni rebel groups.

ISIS isn't the only player in town. All these factions are being supported by various groups, none of which who were part of the original protests. These ideologues have their own agenda and will quickly blowup in everyones face.

ISIS is just the most prominent one right now, because it got the most backing by the external factions. Al-Qaeda was yesterdays ISIS, and tomorrows ISIS is just waiting to fill the void.

Nobody appreciates foreign armies coming in to their lands and killing their civilians, even if initially they ask for your help. It results in a rallying call for the people to unite against the aggressor. Look throughout history at how these things play out.

Also, nation states don't act in altruistic ways. They try to exploit situations for their own benefit. Turkey won't just go in and do what is best for Syria, they will do what is best for them and make a complaint Syrian state, as Russia and Iran are trying to do, regardless of the consequences to Syrian life. And what will result is another ISIS.

If Turkey, really wants stability within it's borders it should focus on dealing with rogue elements within and also to take steps to try and resolve conflicts, such as the Kurdish issue. But that's not on Erdogan's agenda.

 

[miandadrules]

My childish ad hominem already worked or you wouldn't be taking time and writing long posts to me. Sorry for that btw, you don't seem like a pro Assad. Have to agree this is one of the better post though.

I do believe pipeline claims are conspiracy theories. Perhaps you would like to expand on that.

Lets get back to the topic. So you said Turkey shouldn't interfere "further" in Syria because there will be a blowback, even deadlier than now. Do you really think ISIS will stop attacking if Turkey pulled back from taking Al Bab and other areas from ISIS? I doubt it. So they only option for Turkey is to send even more troops.

As for the pipelines you simply need to read up on the various pipelines linked to the Syrian conflict.

Politics isn't as proactive as conspiracy theorists have you believe. Nations don't engineer conflicts simply for these pipeline. But it is reactive and such interests dictate how they will conduct themselves in such situations. Do you honestly believe nations are going to pump billions in to a conflict to create a situation which works against them?

Another, important issue to consider is OPEC trading in dollars and how this is influencing the players involved.

 

[miandadrules]

Can we also say that the white man ,with a specific driving narrative, has been historically and is even currently the cause of most problems concerning the world?

What is being done to the muslims is not something new. It was done to the blacks to ensure their continued subjugation. As malcolm-X had pointed out, the blacks had started to hate their own skin and actually believe that there was something wrong with them.

Its about creating conditions of chaos and anger among people for Engineering a consciousness wherein people lose their understanding of what is right for them, Where the victim starts blaming himself for the predicament he finds himself in and accepts whatever ideologies are imposed on them by saviours who are nothing but colonial masters.

I really hope that muslims stop hating themselves and be proud of their identity like they were prior to the war west waged against them.

Yes, i agree that without an indigenous breeding ground an external power remains weak.

I'm not just talking about internal problems.

All those charges you have laid at the "White mans" door equally apply to the Muslim world.

1. The creation of problems in the world currently and historically.

2. The treatment and dehumanisation of people of African origin.

3. "Creating conditions of chaos and anger among people for engineering a consciousness wherein people lose their understanding of what is right for them. Where the victim starts blaming himself for the predicament he finds himself in and accepts whatever ideologies are imposed on them by saviours who are nothing but colonial masters."

All of which the "Muslim world" has been guilty of especially historically.

 

[Thivagar]

The big bad White man is the reason for all the troubles in Mid East. The troubles in Mid East has nothing to do with rivalry between various sects of Islam.

Almost all the problems in the world are caused by the White Man and their colonization.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Turkey needs to focus on it's internal elements. These attacks don't just materialise by someone walking over the border. There is funding and an internal support structure.

It doesn't mean the attacks will stop suddenly simply because Turkey stops interfering, it's about making a concerted effort to address the real issues. Erdogan, derives a great deal of support from the religious parties and there are elements within his own circle that are sympathetic to the Sunni rebel groups.

ISIS isn't the only player in town. All these factions are being supported by various groups, none of which who were part of the original protests. These ideologues have their own agenda and will quickly blowup in everyones face.

ISIS is just the most prominent one right now, because it got the most backing by the external factions. Al-Qaeda was yesterdays ISIS, and tomorrows ISIS is just waiting to fill the void.

Nobody appreciates foreign armies coming in to their lands and killing their civilians, even if initially they ask for your help. It results in a rallying call for the people to unite against the aggressor. Look throughout history at how these things play out.

Also, nation states don't act in altruistic ways. They try to exploit situations for their own benefit. Turkey won't just go in and do what is best for Syria, they will do what is best for them and make a complaint Syrian state, as Russia and Iran are trying to do, regardless of the consequences to Syrian life. And what will result is another ISIS.

If Turkey, really wants stability within it's borders it should focus on dealing with rogue elements within and also to take steps to try and resolve conflicts, such as the Kurdish issue. But that's not on Erdogan's agenda.

How many major players in the world do we know that only focus on internal matters in this global age here everyone is interconnected? You and I both live in the UK I believe, do we only concern ourselves with issues within our tiny borders?

 

[miandadrules]

How many major players in the world do we know that only focus on internal matters in this global age here everyone is interconnected? You and I both live in the UK I believe, do we only concern ourselves with issues within our tiny borders?

Then you have to deal with the consequences.

There is a difference between supporting elements and actively putting boots on the ground.

There are also degrees of support.

 

[Madplayer]

I'm not just talking about internal problems.

All those charges you have laid at the "White mans" door equally apply to the Muslim world.

1. The creation of problems in the world currently and historically.

2. The treatment and dehumanisation of people of African origin.

3. "Creating conditions of chaos and anger among people for engineering a consciousness wherein people lose their understanding of what is right for them. Where the victim starts blaming himself for the predicament he finds himself in and accepts whatever ideologies are imposed on them by saviours who are nothing but colonial masters."

All of which the "Muslim world" has been guilty of especially historically.

I think you are making the same mistake as others in understanding what my point was. Maybe i should have put it forward more clearly.

In My first paragraph I was replying to Robert's post where he said that blaming a few muslims for global terrorism isnt enough. So there i used the example of white supremacism. The point i was trying to make was that we can't make generalizations in either cases.

The remaining paragraphs were not even related to the first paragraph although they seem to be made in the same context because i used the example of exploitation of black people and the conditioning of their minds by colonialists. I just used that as an example to draw a comparison because some muslims too have started self-loathing. If u give it another glance, i haven't said white supremacists are responsible for creating the conditions of chaos in muslim world. The first para should be seen in isolation as a response to Robert.

I hope this clears it for [MENTION=137677]Thivagar[/MENTION] as well.

 

[Abdullah719]

Abdulkadir Masharipov: Turkish court jails man for life over Istanbul nightclub attack

A Turkish court has sentenced a man to life in prison for carrying out a gun attack on an Istanbul nightclub that left 39 people dead.

Abdulkadir Masharipov, a citizen of Uzbekistan, was handed the equivalent of 40 life sentences on Monday.

It follows a three-year trial over the shooting, which happened at the exclusive Reina nightclub just minutes into New Year’s Day in 2017.

The Islamic State group (IS) said it was responsible for the attack.

Masharipov was sentenced for “deliberate murder” and “violating the constitution”, Turkey’s Anadolu news agency said. He will not be eligible for parole.

He also received an additional 1,368-year sentence for the attempted murder of 79 people who were injured in the attack and for carrying a weapon without a licence.

Another man, Ilyas Mamasaripov, was sentenced to more than 1,400 years in prison for helping plan the shooting.

Forty-eight defendants were sentenced to jail for being members of a terrorist organisation, local media reported, and 11 others were acquitted.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54070456

 

[sweep_shot]

Well done, Turkey.

Good punishments.

 

[Lurker_Ind]

It should be an introspection for all Muslims,world over. .why are muslims killing muslims themselfs?

It depends on who is more pious or who follows the correct version of Islam. Its a slippery slope.

 

[msaaim89]

Well done, Turkey.

Good punishments.

Life actually meaning life. Good job Turkey.

Shame some nations seem to go along the route of criminal sympathy with generous sentences.