Actions of Israeli forces in the occupied territories

[KingKhanWC]

Winning land by war is theft?

UNGA vote is a sham.All NATO countries and India will stand by Israel if push comes to a shove.

lol.

Settlements are illegal under International law. But with your logic if China started building on Indian land near it's borders you would be ok with it?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Jerusalem is the 3rd holy city for Muslims. Muslims first prayed towards Jerusalem before they prayed towards Mecca. The Zionist Jews want to eventually build their Temple where the Al-Aqsa mosque is present. When they try you will see the 200 million Muslims showing you what it has to do with them.

India's interests lies with being on good terms with Muslims nations over Israel.

India's interests lie with Israel not muslim nations and certainly not Palestine.Though India has shed most of its inhibition in displaying it relations with Israel, the last remenants of such inhibitions remain.

India is a nation of 1.3bn people and their interests trump over that of any religion.Our decisions of foreign policy will be taken on basis of our interests and not on basis of where is a mosque or who prays facing where.

 

[cricketjoshila]

lol.

Settlements are illegal under International law. But with your logic if China started building on Indian land near it's borders you would be ok with it?

Countries attacked Israel, lost the war and lost land.Just like jews once lost the land after defeats in wars.

 

[Yossarian]

FYI this resolution was not passed by the UNSC but the UNGA.

FYI the whole world knows that. It's not a secret that only you are privy to. The USA vetoed the one at the UNSC, with even it's allies on the SC voting for it.

FYI the post was in response to the ludicrous comment that "The UN has no right whatsoever to declare a decision made by a sovereign country null and void." and thus why the example of North Korea being quoted.

 

[KingKhanWC]

India's interests lie with Israel not muslim nations and certainly not Palestine.Though India has shed most of its inhibition in displaying it relations with Israel, the last remenants of such inhibitions remain.

India is a nation of 1.3bn people and their interests trump over that of any religion.Our decisions of foreign policy will be taken on basis of our interests and not on basis of where is a mosque or who prays facing where.

This is clearly your opinion as India has voted against the US, so it believes its interests don't lie with Israel in this situation.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Countries attacked Israel, lost the war and lost land.Just like jews once lost the land after defeats in wars.

lol What countries?

Illegal settlements are being built on occupied land. If you need me to explain this to you, then you shouldn't attempt to even debate this.

 

[Yossarian]

Countries attacked Israel, lost the war and lost land.Just like jews once lost the land after defeats in wars.

Remind me, O expert on Jewish history, what wars have the Jews fought , and won or lost, prior to 1947? (losing out to the Ancient Egyptians, Romans et al many thousands of years ago doesn't count).

 

[cricketjoshila]

FYI the whole world knows that. It's not a secret that only you are privy to. The USA vetoed the one at the UNSC, with even it's allies on the SC voting for it.

FYI the post was in response to the ludicrous comment that "The UN has no right whatsoever to declare a decision made by a sovereign country null and void." and thus why the example of North Korea being quoted.

NoKo decision was by UNSC and not UNGA.

 

[cricketjoshila]

This is clearly your opinion as India has voted against the US, so it believes its interests don't lie with Israel in this situation.

As an Indian my constitution gives me the right to criticise this foolish and pathetic decision taken by my country's govt.

 

[Yossarian]

NoKo decision was by UNSC and not UNGA.

Do try and follow the whole conversation and not just pick out random sentences out of context, now there's a good chap. The point being made was about the decisions and resolutions of the UN as an entity and not whether by the UN General Assembly as a whole or by the 15 members of the UN Security Council.

 

[cricketjoshila]

lol What countries?

Illegal settlements are being built on occupied land. If you need me to explain this to you, then you shouldn't attempt to even debate this.

How were these lands occupied by Israel?

 

[KingKhanWC]

How were these lands occupied by Israel?

lol.

The Palestinians have no army to defend it's land so its not difficult for Israel. You seem to be implying might is right? Then I assume if China walked into areas of India and took the land, you would be ok with this too?

 

[cricketjoshila]

lol.

The Palestinians have no army to defend it's land so its not difficult for Israel. You seem to be implying might is right? Then I assume if China walked into areas of India and took the land, you would be ok with this too?

1.India is correcting its mistakes regarding its reluctance towards Israel.Course correction was made and India now is among Israel's close allies.

For you everything may be about religion, but for many it isnt.National interests are above any religion. And its funny how you suddenly seem to be speaking for Indian muslims.


2.So basically Palestinians lost Jerusalem?You sir have no idea from which country Israel actually took jerusalem.

 

[KingKhanWC]

1.India is correcting its mistakes regarding its reluctance towards Israel.Course correction was made and India now is among Israel's close allies.

For you everything may be about religion, but for many it isnt.National interests are above any religion. And its funny how you suddenly seem to be speaking for Indian muslims.


2.So basically Palestinians lost Jerusalem?You sir have no idea from which country Israel actually took jerusalem.

The butcher Ariel Sharon visited India when a previous BJP government was in control. BJP and Zionism both have a hatred of Muslims, so became natural allies esp since both see Pakistan as long term enemies. I doubt a congress leader would have visited Israel as Modi did at this time. It is about religion , the BJP isn't a non-religious party. I suggest you visit it's website and find out what their ideology is. But on this occasion it had no choice as if India didn't support the motion which was generated by Arab nations and Turkey it would have caused diplomatic issues with those nations who are more important to India than a small nation such as Israel.

Settlements are not just in Jerusulam but mainly in the West Bank. East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank lands do not belong to Israel. You're confusing the six day war in which Israel captured some lands after defeating countries. No countries needed to be defeated to build settlements lol. You really are clueless on this subject, so just accept it.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The butcher Ariel Sharon visited India when a previous BJP government was in control. BJP and Zionism both have a hatred of Muslims, so became natural allies esp since both see Pakistan as long term enemies. I doubt a congress leader would have visited Israel as Modi did at this time. It is about religion , the BJP isn't a non-religious party. I suggest you visit it's website and find out what their ideology is. But on this occasion it had no choice as if India didn't support the motion which was generated by Arab nations and Turkey it would have caused diplomatic issues with those nations who are more important to India than a small nation such as Israel.

Settlements are not just in Jerusulam but mainly in the West Bank. East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank lands do not belong to Israel. You're confusing the six day war in which Israel captured some lands after defeating countries. No countries needed to be defeated to build settlements lol. You really are clueless on this subject, so just accept it.

1.Ariel Sharon in India,BJP,Modi have nothing to do with Jerusalem.Foreign policy are made over decades and Indias first overt contract with Israel was under a congress govt and congress govts have continued with a pro israel policy.

2.As i told you, Indias policy will be based on the interests of 1.3bn people and will trump any religion or religious consideration. For you religion may be the basis of all things and you are free to have that view, do not extrapolate it to others.

3.Turkey doesnt hold much significance for India and Many Arab nations themselves have covert understanding with Israel.Indias vote was a result of the remanants of the age old policy of supporting palestine.Much of that policy have been junked and the rest remains to be junked as well.

 

[KingKhanWC]

1.Ariel Sharon in India,BJP,Modi have nothing to do with Jerusalem.Foreign policy are made over decades and Indias first overt contract with Israel was under a congress govt and congress govts have continued with a pro israel policy.

2.As i told you, Indias policy will be based on the interests of 1.3bn people and will trump any religion or religious consideration. For you religion may be the basis of all things and you are free to have that view, do not extrapolate it to others.

3.Turkey doesnt hold much significance for India and Many Arab nations themselves have covert understanding with Israel.Indias vote was a result of the remanants of the age old policy of supporting palestine.Much of that policy have been junked and the rest remains to be junked as well.

Zionism and Hindutva have a common interest and have made relations closer. I never suggested Congress is anti Israel or had no contact with Israel.

How are the interests of 1.2billion better suited towards accepting Trumps nonsense and causing diplomatic issues with numerous nations which have close ties with India?

No India voted against the US and Israel because to declare Jerusalem as the capital of Israel when East Jerusalem belongs to Palestinians is idiotic. UK is best ally of the US but it voted against them.

 

[Romali_rotti]

The butcher Ariel Sharon visited India when a previous BJP government was in control. BJP and Zionism both have a hatred of Muslims, so became natural allies esp since both see Pakistan as long term enemies. I doubt a congress leader would have visited Israel as Modi did at this time. It is about religion , the BJP isn't a non-religious party. I suggest you visit it's website and find out what their ideology is. But on this occasion it had no choice as if India didn't support the motion which was generated by Arab nations and Turkey it would have caused diplomatic issues with those nations who are more important to India than a small nation such as Israel.

Settlements are not just in Jerusulam but mainly in the West Bank. East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank lands do not belong to Israel. You're confusing the six day war in which Israel captured some lands after defeating countries. No countries needed to be defeated to build settlements lol. You really are clueless on this subject, so just accept it.

You need to calm down, yeah I get it, you feel for your Arab fellow muslim. You need to realize in the eyes of the Arabs you are just a sub-continentile and they look down on you, no matter how much Quran you read, how much of a muslim you preach to be.... The Arab, Jew issues have nothing to do with ppl from the subcontinent, you are not the same race, you are a different human being altogether, no matter how hard you try, you are not in their company...

 

[shaykh]

You call Israel a soverign nation but cannot define its borders? Don't worry neither can the Israelis themselves. Why would they when their holy book says its borders go into other Arab nations. This is why they are continuing their theft of land, something which you support I assume?

Israel doesn't recognise Palestine , yet you want Palestinians to recognise Israel? What planet are you Zionists on? lol

Hamas is one group and not the authority of Palestinians ,yet they have agree to talk peace. Palestinians are more genuine towards peace than your Zionist friends, we both know this but they have trained you to not admit this.

Erm...you said Hamas had called for peace...so like I said you were either being disingenuous or you just aren;t particularly well informed...i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's the latter...

You were asked two simple questions...either admit that you were chatting drivel about Hamas and peace...or answer the two questions that were raised...

- Where have Hamas said they will stop with the idea of 'right of return?'
- Where have Hamas said they will recognise Israel?

Palestine has never existed...do tell me when Palestine was a state...it was Ottoman then Jordanian and now Israeli...there is nothing to recognise...as ignorant as you are proving to be...i'm sure you are at least aware of the fact that the Palestinians are trying to get a state...the Israelis already have one...

It would suit you better to actually address points than to resort to ad hominem...

 

[shaykh]

You need to calm down, yeah I get it, you feel for your Arab fellow muslim. You need to realize in the eyes of the Arabs you are just a sub-continentile and they look down on you, no matter how much Quran you read, how much of a muslim you preach to be.... The Arab, Jew issues have nothing to do with ppl from the subcontinent, you are not the same race, you are a different human being altogether, no matter how hard you try, you are not in their company...

Not nearly that simple...Jerusalem is important to Muslims...and more importantly is the fact that Jews rule over it...the concern about Palestinians as a group is less important to Muslims in general than the fact Israel rules there now...

Also the identity of the oppressor is what matters...

KKWC will post 100 posts here...but won't post anything against Assad for instance...

 

[shaykh]

I wanted to add something to my previous post but couldn't edit in time...

Israel was adjudged to have occupied Jordanian land...and in 1988 the Jordanians relinquished their claim to the land...hence now the West Bank is 'disputed territores'...not Palestine...it's earmarked for being part of a future Palestinian state but it's not a state...

 

[shaykh]

And even if the UN now views it as occupied Palestinian territory it is not viewed as a sovereign state...again it's earmarked as being part of a future Palestinian state...

 

[Romali_rotti]

Not nearly that simple...Jerusalem is important to Muslims...and more importantly is the fact that Jews rule over it...the concern about Palestinians as a group is less important to Muslims in general than the fact Israel rules there now...

Also the identity of the oppressor is what matters...

KKWC will post 100 posts here...but won't post anything against Assad for instance...

Arab, Jew issue should be sorted out by themselves, it is clear as daisy that the Arabs look down on ppl from the sub continent, this Arab tail licking will not get ppl from the sub continent acceptance in front of them. My personal experiences with Arabs; good god they look at ppl from the subcontinent as cockroaches...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Erm...you said Hamas had called for peace...so like I said you were either being disingenuous or you just aren;t particularly well informed...i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's the latter...

You were asked two simple questions...either admit that you were chatting drivel about Hamas and peace...or answer the two questions that were raised...

- Where have Hamas said they will stop with the idea of 'right of return?'
- Where have Hamas said they will recognise Israel?

Palestine has never existed...do tell me when Palestine was a state...it was Ottoman then Jordanian and now Israeli...there is nothing to recognise...as ignorant as you are proving to be...i'm sure you are at least aware of the fact that the Palestinians are trying to get a state...the Israelis already have one...

It would suit you better to actually address points than to resort to ad hominem...

Your arguments are no different to the paid Zionist army online, so no ad hominem.

I said Hamas are open to a peace deal. East Jerusalem , Gaza and the West Bank are Palestinian areas under Inernational law, again you are using the tired Zionist argument of Palestine never existed Does Israel recognise those areas are not theirs and belong to a future Palestinian state? Then why should any Palestinian recognise Israel esp since they don't know what to recognise?

Again for the third time... Define Israels borders? How many other nations who claim to be soviergn and legitimate cannot define their borders?

Did a Jewish state exist for the last 200 years?

 

[KingKhanWC]

And even if the UN now views it as occupied Palestinian territory it is not viewed as a sovereign state...again it's earmarked as being part of a future Palestinian state...

When you can define Israels borders then talk about a sovereign state.

 

[shaykh]

Your arguments are no different to the paid Zionist army online, so no ad hominem.

I said Hamas are open to a peace deal. East Jerusalem , Gaza and the West Bank are Palestinian areas under Inernational law, again you are using the tired Zionist argument of Palestine never existed Does Israel recognise those areas are not theirs and belong to a future Palestinian state? Then why should any Palestinian recognise Israel esp since they don't know what to recognise?

Again for the third time... Define Israels borders? How many other nations who claim to be soviergn and legitimate cannot define their borders?

Did a Jewish state exist for the last 200 years?

If you can answer my questions then i'll answer yours...

Show me where Hamas have said they will go back on the idea of right of return and where they will accept Israel as a state...

I'll say it again...there is NO acceptance of a Jewish state in Palestine...two state solution means this:

A Palestinian state in the West Bank with no Jews, Gaza and Eastern Jerusalem along with issues of sovereignty over the religious parts...

The second state isn't a Jewish state...it's predicated on the right of return so the possibility of 5m Palestinians in Israel proper which gives the Arabs a majority in Israel proper...

If you think any Israeli in their right mind would give up their sovereignty then you're clueless...that is not a peace deal worth discussing...and quite frankly in practice if that ever happened it would be an absolute disaster...

Palestinian leadership didn't recognise the Partition in 1948...and they don't even recognise pre-1967 borders...Israel hasn't claimed annexation of the West Bank or Gaza...Jerusalem is another issue especially under Likud...under Barak during the Clinton era East Jerusalem was on the table but Arafat wasn't interested...

As it stands...you have two sides who want the same things...so as I said to Yossarian...there is NO peace to be made...Palestinians can continue to want what they won't get...and Israel will just maintain the status quo...

Your 200 years point is meaningless...Palestine has NEVER had a state...Israel has had one for 70 years...and for the first 19 years had clear borders which the Palestinians and Arab countries refused to recognise...

As for the ad hominem...if you are really so accustomed to these arguments then I would expect you to produce better arguments...and actually the standard position of that 'army' you speak of is that Israel are working for peace...i'm not gonna present that argument because I don't agree with it...

Sometimes it's worth understanding beneath your dogma that people can disagree with you on the basis of ideas...and not cos of money...I just disagree with you...and if I do share opinions of others then maybe it's cos I agree with them...

I will say this your arguments are certainly not even remotely original...so what?...are you on the Hamas payroll then?...or maybe the Iranians that you love so much?...

I wouldn't bring those kind of points into a discussion cos it's simply poor form to resort to ad hominem...i believe your opinions are yours...i don't think you've read anything beyond a few articles to support your existing opinion...but I certainly don't think your paid...

 

[KingKhanWC]

If you can answer my questions then i'll answer yours...

Show me where Hamas have said they will go back on the idea of right of return and where they will accept Israel as a state...

I'll say it again...there is NO acceptance of a Jewish state in Palestine...two state solution means this:

A Palestinian state in the West Bank with no Jews, Gaza and Eastern Jerusalem along with issues of sovereignty over the religious parts...

The second state isn't a Jewish state...it's predicated on the right of return so the possibility of 5m Palestinians in Israel proper which gives the Arabs a majority in Israel proper...

If you think any Israeli in their right mind would give up their sovereignty then you're clueless...that is not a peace deal worth discussing...and quite frankly in practice if that ever happened it would be an absolute disaster...

Palestinian leadership didn't recognise the Partition in 1948...and they don't even recognise pre-1967 borders...Israel hasn't claimed annexation of the West Bank or Gaza...Jerusalem is another issue especially under Likud...under Barak during the Clinton era East Jerusalem was on the table but Arafat wasn't interested...

As it stands...you have two sides who want the same things...so as I said to Yossarian...there is NO peace to be made...Palestinians can continue to want what they won't get...and Israel will just maintain the status quo...

Your 200 years point is meaningless...Palestine has NEVER had a state...Israel has had one for 70 years...and for the first 19 years had clear borders which the Palestinians and Arab countries refused to recognise...

As for the ad hominem...if you are really so accustomed to these arguments then I would expect you to produce better arguments...and actually the standard position of that 'army' you speak of is that Israel are working for peace...i'm not gonna present that argument because I don't agree with it...

Sometimes it's worth understanding beneath your dogma that people can disagree with you on the basis of ideas...and not cos of money...I just disagree with you...and if I do share opinions of others then maybe it's cos I agree with them...

I will say this your arguments are certainly not even remotely original...so what?...are you on the Hamas payroll then?...or maybe the Iranians that you love so much?...

I wouldn't bring those kind of points into a discussion cos it's simply poor form to resort to ad hominem...i believe your opinions are yours...i don't think you've read anything beyond a few articles to support your existing opinion...but I certainly don't think your paid...

. Your boy Netanyahoo always says the Jews have had their home in the holy land for thousands of years. Which Jewish state is he referring to for these years?

The Palestinians have always wanted peace, Hamas is one group who also agreed to peace talks. The final status of these talks is up for discussion.

You keep saying Israel has been a state for 70 years but where do the borders end? You do not have the ability to answer this question. Email your Israeli friends for the official response.

 

[shaykh]

. Your boy Netanyahoo always says the Jews have had their home in the holy land for thousands of years. Which Jewish state is he referring to for these years?

The Palestinians have always wanted peace, Hamas is one group who also agreed to peace talks. The final status of these talks is up for discussion.

You keep saying Israel has been a state for 70 years but where do the borders end? You do not have the ability to answer this question. Email your Israeli friends for the official response.

Lol so you refuse to answer the questions I outlined to you...

And you keep posting drivel...i've asked you three times now...where Hamas has said they will recognise Israel in any form...and also show me where they will relinquish right of return...

You can keep stating Hamas wants peace...but you haven't been able to give an iota of evidence beyond 'they want to start talks'...

I showed how your link was nonsense and you refused to address the questions I raised...

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you're a bit slow and need things repeated...

Have Hamas ever said they will recognise Israels right to exist?...even in a two state solution...in any form......

Have Hamas ever said they won't demand right of return for 5m 'refugees'...

The two points are linked...there is wholesale rejection of a Jewish state hence the requirement for a right of return...

6.3m Jews at present in Israel...
1.7m Israeli Arabs

So the idea is for a demographic majority...that is the Hamas framework for peace...

Anyway irregardless...what you will easily find and you can even find it today...is Hamas claiming they will get back every part of what is now Israel...

Mahmoud al Zahhar said just last week that they are accountable to Allah if they relinquish even an inch of land to Israel...where he also states the war will end with the elimination of Israel...where he promises annihalation of the Jews...

And let's be frank now too...peace also just isn't good business...Hamas have proven to be no less corrupt than the PA...how many millionaires are there now in Gaza?...how much are Meshaal and Haniyeh worth?...

Do feel to have a peruse of Palestinian sources which have spoken out against bribery and corruption in terms of getting medical permits to leave the Gaza strip...

Or how Haniyeh has managed to buy real estate for all of his sons...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Lol so you refuse to answer the questions I outlined to you...

And you keep posting drivel...i've asked you three times now...where Hamas has said they will recognise Israel in any form...and also show me where they will relinquish right of return...

You can keep stating Hamas wants peace...but you haven't been able to give an iota of evidence beyond 'they want to start talks'...

I showed how your link was nonsense and you refused to address the questions I raised...

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you're a bit slow and need things repeated...

Have Hamas ever said they will recognise Israels right to exist?...even in a two state solution...in any form......

Have Hamas ever said they won't demand right of return for 5m 'refugees'...

The two points are linked...there is wholesale rejection of a Jewish state hence the requirement for a right of return...

6.3m Jews at present in Israel...
1.7m Israeli Arabs

So the idea is for a demographic majority...that is the Hamas framework for peace...

Anyway irregardless...what you will easily find and you can even find it today...is Hamas claiming they will get back every part of what is now Israel...

Mahmoud al Zahhar said just last week that they are accountable to Allah if they relinquish even an inch of land to Israel...where he also states the war will end with the elimination of Israel...where he promises annihalation of the Jews...

And let's be frank now too...peace also just isn't good business...Hamas have proven to be no less corrupt than the PA...how many millionaires are there now in Gaza?...how much are Meshaal and Haniyeh worth?...

Do feel to have a peruse of Palestinian sources which have spoken out against bribery and corruption in terms of getting medical permits to leave the Gaza strip...

Or how Haniyeh has managed to buy real estate for all of his sons...

Are you slow?

I answered it immediately by saying Israel doesn't recognise the Palestinian lands which are official under International law, therefore Hamas has no obligation to recognise any pavement known as Israel.

Only a fool would expect the weaker occupied people to recognise their oppressor when they are not recognised by them.

Now can you or not define the borders of the Zionist entity? Have you had a response from the email you sent to your teachers?

 

[Majestic_Inzi]

And none of those 200mn muslims have anything to do with Palestine.Indias interests lie with Israel and thats what matters.

I believe Jerusalem does matter to indian muslims, why do you think India voted against the USA, over 200m muslims in India more than Pakistans population, crap would have hit the fans with riots, i assure you. India does not want that..

 

[Majestic_Inzi]

India's interests lie with Israel not muslim nations and certainly not Palestine.Though India has shed most of its inhibition in displaying it relations with Israel, the last remenants of such inhibitions remain.

India is a nation of 1.3bn people and their interests trump over that of any religion.Our decisions of foreign policy will be taken on basis of our interests and not on basis of where is a mosque or who prays facing where.

I challenge the Indian Govt to put Embassy in Jerusalem, we will see what happens, you thought Kashmir was hard wait till those 200m+ indian muslim go crazy...

Dont talk nonsense.

 

[shaykh]

Are you slow?

I answered it immediately by saying Israel doesn't recognise the Palestinian lands which are official under International law, therefore Hamas has no obligation to recognise any pavement known as Israel.

Only a fool would expect the weaker occupied people to recognise their oppressor when they are not recognised by them.

Now can you or not define the borders of the Zionist entity? Have you had a response from the email you sent to your teachers?

Really?...Palestine is sovereign under the UN?...like I said there is nothing currently to recognise...who runs 'Palestine?'...Hamas or Fatah?...what are Palestine's borders...

At the very least Israel under the UN is sovereign and the '48 borders are recognised...Israel DOES exist...Palestine is trying to exist...

And i've said this to you already...

But you proved yourself a liar...and have some humility and admit it...i'm not claiming the Israeli government does want peace...and the PA deep down don't want Israel gone...it's only cos of Israel that Hamas only has control in Gaza...the PA rely on Israel for their security...Hamas doesn't want the existence of Israel nor does it want to co-operate with Fatah...

And only a fool believes the stronger power should make itself weaker...

And cute comment on the teachers...you've been shown up a few times on this topic...from your pathetic claims of Britain and the USA created Israel...to Hamas want a two state solution...

But keep going...i hope you have learnt something during these discussions...

 

[shaykh]

I challenge the Indian Govt to put Embassy in Jerusalem, we will see what happens, you thought Kashmir was hard wait till those 200m+ indian muslim go crazy...

Dont talk nonsense.

Agreed...it's all symbolic nonsense...Israel cared a lot less about the UN vote than Trump did...Israel actually did better this time round than usual...

the UN will always vote against Israel on the whole and then it's business as usual the next day...theres nothing for India to gain for voting yes...the US will do that for everyone...the rest of the countries have to appease the Arab countries and the Muslims in their countries...

The embarrassment was Trumps...who made lots of silly and public threats...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Really?...Palestine is sovereign under the UN?...like I said there is nothing currently to recognise...who runs 'Palestine?'...Hamas or Fatah?...what are Palestine's borders...

At the very least Israel under the UN is sovereign and the '48 borders are recognised...Israel DOES exist...Palestine is trying to exist...

And i've said this to you already...

But you proved yourself a liar...and have some humility and admit it...i'm not claiming the Israeli government does want peace...and the PA deep down don't want Israel gone...it's only cos of Israel that Hamas only has control in Gaza...the PA rely on Israel for their security...Hamas doesn't want the existence of Israel nor does it want to co-operate with Fatah...

And only a fool believes the stronger power should make itself weaker...

And cute comment on the teachers...you've been shown up a few times on this topic...from your pathetic claims of Britain and the USA created Israel...to Hamas want a two state solution...

But keep going...i hope you have learnt something during these discussions...

lol.

East Jerusalem , West Bank and Gaza are NOT Zionist territories. Under International law these are Palestinian lands part of the future Palestinian state.

You have no shame supporting an occupying power who is stealing land and building settlements.

I could learn nothing from a Zionist, your teachers must have told you not to answer the simple question of defining Israels borders because they want to steal more land.

Let me help you if your handlers wont.... If you believe in the 48 borders, you then accept the the settlements in the West Bank are ILLEGAL and are built on land belonging to the Palestinians? Email them first, it's ok.

 

[JaDed]

lol.

Business is business, even the Muslims used to trade with the Crusaders who conquered Jerusalem. Apartheid South Africa continued to trade.

The UNGA vote shows you it's a Pariah state, the majority of the planet feels Israels occupation is unnaccetable. Unless you an name one relevant nation which agrees with Israels policy of land theft?

What was the vote for?Are you saying all the countries that voted against Israel-America don't recognise Israel?

 

[Varun]

I challenge the Indian Govt to put Embassy in Jerusalem, we will see what happens, you thought Kashmir was hard wait till those 200m+ indian muslim go crazy...

Dont talk nonsense.

Thankfully Indian Muslims don't care about this catfight.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Thankfully Indian Muslims don't care about this catfight.

You have no idea, which is understandable. You can do some research, but if that is wanting, I can lead you to more information.

 

[kaayal]

I challenge the Indian Govt to put Embassy in Jerusalem, we will see what happens, you thought Kashmir was hard wait till those 200m+ indian muslim go crazy...

Dont talk nonsense.

I believe Jerusalem does matter to indian muslims, why do you think India voted against the USA, over 200m muslims in India more than Pakistans population, crap would have hit the fans with riots, i assure you. India does not want that..

Indian muslims do sympathise with the Palestineans and consider Israel as illegal occupiers of their land. But that doesn't mean we go on riot with our country if something happens in Palestine. Why would we destroy our own home??

 

[cricketjoshila]

I challenge the Indian Govt to put Embassy in Jerusalem, we will see what happens, you thought Kashmir was hard wait till those 200m+ indian muslim go crazy...

Dont talk nonsense.

Dont talk on behalf of Indian Muslims.Talk about yourself and may be your own countrymen.Everyone isnt crazy like you.


Indian interests are for 1.3bn people and no particular religion matters.

 

[big_gamer007]

I challenge the Indian Govt to put Embassy in Jerusalem, we will see what happens, you thought Kashmir was hard wait till those 200m+ indian muslim go crazy...

Dont talk nonsense.

Hahha just because you are a nutcase who goes crazy about issues not realted to you or your country doesn’t mean everyone is the same..

Indian Muslims and Hindus alike condemn violence and loss of innocent lives however we will never cause harm in our own country over Palestine’s who we have no relation to whatsoever or any Hindu who gets discriminated in any other country..

If anyone does take law in his own hands and try to cause trouble in India he will be dealt with properly be it of any religion.

 

[shaykh]

lol.

East Jerusalem , West Bank and Gaza are NOT Zionist territories. Under International law these are Palestinian lands part of the future Palestinian state.

You have no shame supporting an occupying power who is stealing land and building settlements.

I could learn nothing from a Zionist, your teachers must have told you not to answer the simple question of defining Israels borders because they want to steal more land.

Let me help you if your handlers wont.... If you believe in the 48 borders, you then accept the the settlements in the West Bank are ILLEGAL and are built on land belonging to the Palestinians? Email them first, it's ok.

Point is i'm not particularly interested in moral arguments...politics and statecraft don't work like that...your position is 'Israel should do A,B,C'...yet you refuse to tell me how it benefits them...make rational arguments not moral ones...there is a difference...

Yes in an ideal world...you allow right of return...you give war gains away...but it's frankly an irrational idea...

On the topic of settlements...it's just confirmation that the peace process is over...are settlements fair?...no...and a lot of Israelis have an issue with settlements...the arguments for are strategic ie the mountain settlements are in strategically good locations if there is an attack...Hezbollah btw are not too far from Golan at the moment...

The other argument is the more brazen one which is Judea and Samaria as they call it is theirs...there are a lot of problems with how Area C has been dealt with...so Area C is solely controlled by Israel...and it's 60% of the West Bank...and yeh they get more funding, more permission to build than the Palestinians do...significantly more so...Area C for all intensive purposes is an extension of the Israeli state...

That said the idea of 700,000 Jews displacing 700,000 Palestinians is false...the first settlement was built in 1979...and it was essentially carrying on what the Jordanians and the British did...private land was purchased (it's why it's now treason to sell land to a Jew)...and in other cases you have what is declared state land...where Palestinians can prove ownership the courts have acted...

So what made state land...

The Ottomans, who had controlled Palestine until World War I, had used the term to designate land far enough from any neighboring village that a crowing rooster perched on its edge could not be heard. Under Ottoman law, if such land was not cultivated for three years it was “mawat”—dead —and reverted to the empire

So settlements were built in areas that weren't inhabited...or more contentiously areas for where ownership couldn't be proven....which you will rightly argue is against International law...when Netanyahu spoke of 2500 new homes they were in existing settlements...one settlement is a city for instance...Ariel which got 899 homes...and has a population of 20,000...

Of course issues like checkpoints etc make life very difficult...but again the argument is one of security...it's considered better to have presence on the ground in terms of Jews and the IDF...

Now you will say that settlements ensure peace is impossible...i do agree with that...cos both heads of the pyramid arent interested...but Israel managed to to make deals with states...eg Egypt...it removed settlers from Sinai and gave Sinai back...it removed settlers from Gaza and gave Gaza to the Palestinians which essentially led to Hamas taking over...

And herein lies one of the issues in terms of the West Bank...you keep failing to address a point...and that is that the PA need Israels presence...it's the IDF that have prevented Hamas and others from routing them in the West Bank...and it is naturally in Israels interest to deal with Abu Mazen than it is with Hamas...

Btw I will say again there were no settlements until 1979...during those 31 years prior this certainly wasn't the issue...it's an EXTRA issue now...not THE issue...and as i've said already there is no prospect for peace...the Clinton Parameters for instance gave Palestinians 94% of the West Bank...Area A which is 20% of the area is solely controlled by the PA currently...in terms of Eastern Jerusalem...the Muslim neighbourhoods would go to Palestine...these were turned down...you may think these are unreasonable terms but frankly it's the best that could have been expected...

In short an offer that good will not come again...Jerusalem is not going to be divided...the Waqf still have control over the Haram-al Sharif...

There will be no right of return...

Settlements will continue to grow in Area C...

That's just the reality now...

As for Gaza...no-one wants it...the Egyptians didn't want it when Israel offered it to them...and Israel didn't want it when they gave it away...Sharon when he did that was thinking about settlements in Area C...

What Gaza showed though is the risks of giving areas away...Hamas just took over...it kinda played into Sharons hands because the argument now is that if Palestinians are given land...strongarms will take over and wreak havoc...theres truth to that which is why the PA are protected in the West Bank...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Point is i'm not particularly interested in moral arguments...politics and statecraft don't work like that...your position is 'Israel should do A,B,C'...yet you refuse to tell me how it benefits them...make rational arguments not moral ones...there is a difference...

Yes in an ideal world...you allow right of return...you give war gains away...but it's frankly an irrational idea...

On the topic of settlements...it's just confirmation that the peace process is over...are settlements fair?...no...and a lot of Israelis have an issue with settlements...the arguments for are strategic ie the mountain settlements are in strategically good locations if there is an attack...Hezbollah btw are not too far from Golan at the moment...

The other argument is the more brazen one which is Judea and Samaria as they call it is theirs...there are a lot of problems with how Area C has been dealt with...so Area C is solely controlled by Israel...and it's 60% of the West Bank...and yeh they get more funding, more permission to build than the Palestinians do...significantly more so...Area C for all intensive purposes is an extension of the Israeli state...

That said the idea of 700,000 Jews displacing 700,000 Palestinians is false...the first settlement was built in 1979...and it was essentially carrying on what the Jordanians and the British did...private land was purchased (it's why it's now treason to sell land to a Jew)...and in other cases you have what is declared state land...where Palestinians can prove ownership the courts have acted...

So what made state land...



So settlements were built in areas that weren't inhabited...or more contentiously areas for where ownership couldn't be proven....which you will rightly argue is against International law...when Netanyahu spoke of 2500 new homes they were in existing settlements...one settlement is a city for instance...Ariel which got 899 homes...and has a population of 20,000...

Of course issues like checkpoints etc make life very difficult...but again the argument is one of security...it's considered better to have presence on the ground in terms of Jews and the IDF...

Now you will say that settlements ensure peace is impossible...i do agree with that...cos both heads of the pyramid arent interested...but Israel managed to to make deals with states...eg Egypt...it removed settlers from Sinai and gave Sinai back...it removed settlers from Gaza and gave Gaza to the Palestinians which essentially led to Hamas taking over...

And herein lies one of the issues in terms of the West Bank...you keep failing to address a point...and that is that the PA need Israels presence...it's the IDF that have prevented Hamas and others from routing them in the West Bank...and it is naturally in Israels interest to deal with Abu Mazen than it is with Hamas...

Btw I will say again there were no settlements until 1979...during those 31 years prior this certainly wasn't the issue...it's an EXTRA issue now...not THE issue...and as i've said already there is no prospect for peace...the Clinton Parameters for instance gave Palestinians 94% of the West Bank...Area A which is 20% of the area is solely controlled by the PA currently...in terms of Eastern Jerusalem...the Muslim neighbourhoods would go to Palestine...these were turned down...you may think these are unreasonable terms but frankly it's the best that could have been expected...

In short an offer that good will not come again...Jerusalem is not going to be divided...the Waqf still have control over the Haram-al Sharif...

There will be no right of return...

Settlements will continue to grow in Area C...

That's just the reality now...

As for Gaza...no-one wants it...the Egyptians didn't want it when Israel offered it to them...and Israel didn't want it when they gave it away...Sharon when he did that was thinking about settlements in Area C...

What Gaza showed though is the risks of giving areas away...Hamas just took over...it kinda played into Sharons hands because the argument now is that if Palestinians are given land...strongarms will take over and wreak havoc...theres truth to that which is why the PA are protected in the West Bank...

Ive said before I dont need an update on the sitauation, I am well aware. The purpose of my discussion is to find out your personal views.

So well done for admitting settlements are wrong as they are being built on stolen land. Well done for also confirming Israel who claims to be a sovereign state cannot define it's borders, we both know why.

 

[KingKhanWC]

What was the vote for?Are you saying all the countries that voted against Israel-America don't recognise Israel?

No. What I am saying all those nations who voted against US and Israel dont accept Israel's policies of claiming all of Jerusalem as it's against International law. You can also check on the many previous votes against Israel in the UN which is more than enough to show it's seen as a Pariah state.

 

[shaykh]

Ive said before I dont need an update on the sitauation, I am well aware. The purpose of my discussion is to find out your personal views.

So well done for admitting settlements are wrong as they are being built on stolen land. Well done for also confirming Israel who claims to be a sovereign state cannot define it's borders, we both know why.

You know jack ...hence why your arguments are so simplistic ...

Like I said you exposed yourself when you posted your links ...

Learn that life isn't all black and white ...

And that the right decisions aren't always the nice decisions ...

Let's say for the sake of argument ...that Israel's borders finish with Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria (west bank C)...would that make you feel better ...

I also never stated building settlements were wrong ...I said they were illegal ...

 

[KingKhanWC]

You know jack ...hence why your arguments are so simplistic ...

Like I said you exposed yourself when you posted your links ...

Learn that life isn't all black and white ...

And that the right decisions aren't always the nice decisions ...

Let's say for the sake of argument ...that Israel's borders finish with Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria (west bank C)...would that make you feel better ...

I also never stated building settlements were wrong ...I said they were illegal ...

The link was from Israeli media who confirmed Hamas are open to a peace deal . Being Bibi's boy, this isn't enough for you as you want them to recognise the Zionist entity when the terrorist state doesnt recognise any of Palestinian legal lands? Yet you know everything. lol

So illegal is not wrong in your world? lol

Its the west bank not words from a book littered with errors. And yes those are the borders they should not step beyond, let alone start building their extremist communities in.

 

[shaykh]

Be honest btw KKWC ...

Do you see the Ottomans as colonizers?...

Would it offend you so much if the Jordanians had taken this land?...you know they were also using this state law idea ...which btw is an Ottoman principle ...

You didn't address the point at all about this ...you simply reverted to 'stolen'...the majority of settlements have as I have said been based on that Ottoman rule ...your stolen comment would be apt if you could show that private land is what places like Ariel have been built on ...

And the thing is these discussions can be contentious when discussing with secular people ...but considering you're a supporter of the khilafah idea you obviously believe in conquest ...you do realize that's 'stealing' by your definition ...or is it only a problem when Jews do it ?...

If there's one thing I do remember about my Islamic days and the people that I spoke to ...their interests were never in nations and self determination ...nor were they anti conquest ...their issue with this topic was that the Jews were ruling over Muslims ...

It makes perfect sense to me that you would find Zionism to be a colonial project but can you not see parallels between things you believe in but just on the other foot ...do you oppose conquest then?...

And please don't lower the conversation by discussing international law ...it only interests you when discussing Palestine otherwise you are the first person to denigrate the UN ...

It's also interesting then that you have such vitriol for the religious Jews who do view Israel as Jewish land ...Do you view Palestine as Muslim land?...Do you follow this Dar-al-Islam idea or will you call it nonsense on here ?...

Religious Jews at least only want one country ...one that is half the size of Wales ...Do you believe that a Khilafah should expand KKWC?...

Like I said with secular people these points arent applicable ...and maybe I've got you wrong ...

But do you oppose the Khilafah idea?...
Do you oppose expansionism irregardless of who is doing it?...
Do you feel Dar-al-Islam is an applicable idea?...
Would you oppose the annexation of the Palestinians by either an Arab or Islamic state....if that party were ruling by shariah?...

 

[KingKhanWC]

^ Stick to the topic. Im not living int the times of the Khalifah or the Ottomons, times change.

Explain why you think something which is ILLEGAL under International law is NOT wrong? If I take your house and abuse your family and children, it will be against the law but by your logic I wouldnt be wrong? lol

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=133972]shaykh[/MENTION]

On the point about religoius Jews wanting their own country.

Why not have it Germany or America?

 

[shaykh]

^ Stick to the topic. Im not living int the times of the Khalifah or the Ottomons, times change.

Explain why you think something which is ILLEGAL under International law is NOT wrong? If I take your house and abuse your family and children, it will be against the law but by your logic I wouldnt be wrong? lol

Illegal is an interpretation ...there are a lot of laws I don't agree with that exist ...It's really not that out there an idea ...

And I am sticking to the topic ...you have no problem with land theft this is the point ...cos you have openly supported it provided Muslims have done it ...so you don't have problems with things on principle ...hence why this is on topic ...

I've asked you a few times and you have skipped the question ...Did you have a problem with the Ottomans declaring state land?...or the Jordanians building in the West Bank?...Jordanians annexation btw was only recognised by Britain ...the guys you cluelessly said were pro Israel lol ...

I just want to know if you apply these standards to all?...

On the topic of the law ...no I don't think Israel needs to give land back to nations that went to war with them ...and doesn't need to give land to the Palestinians whose leadership have constantly stuck to the position of we want to wipe you off the map ...so even if the law says pre 1967 I personally feel that if nations go to war and lose territory they can't cry about losing it ...

And honestly what a pathetic example your last line is ...you really are such a child ...

 

[shaykh]

[MENTION=133972]shaykh[/MENTION]

On the point about religoius Jews wanting their own country.

Why not have it Germany or America?

Isn't the whole point for religious Jews that it is in Israel ...

As a supporter of the Khilafah I would have thought you would at least appreciate a religious desire for something the way us non religious people can't ...

The Jews to their credit secular, religious, atheist all got together and got their state ...the Muslims frankly couldnt match that in this day and age ...

And before you go on about stolen land again ...as someone who is religious your whole history is full of conquest and displacement ...which I'm presuming you condone ...or are you going to condemn those ...Like I said you're not remotely principaled ...all that matters is the identity of whose on top of the pyramid ...

 

[Majestic_Inzi]

Dont talk on behalf of Indian Muslims.Talk about yourself and may be your own countrymen.Everyone isnt crazy like you.


Indian interests are for 1.3bn people and no particular religion matters.

The cow vigilantes are for the interest of the whole Indian Population, I am not a crazy, an indian muslim will relate more to me than you as a hindu indian. Thats a fact...

 

[Majestic_Inzi]

CricketJoshila

I tell you why for a start you voted in favour of resolution, Iran would have told you to do one with regards to the Chabahar Port in Iran and your new chums in Afghanistan would have done the same. The plans for Pakistan from Afghanistan/Iran would fail miserably.

You see all these indian come on twitter and say we are with you Israel blah blah blah, its evident the only reason that is because of the hatred for muslims, thats it.. Nothing else, Indian hindus are one of the most racist people on the planet...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Isn't the whole point for religious Jews that it is in Israel ...

As a supporter of the Khilafah I would have thought you would at least appreciate a religious desire for something the way us non religious people can't ...

The Jews to their credit secular, religious, atheist all got together and got their state ...the Muslims frankly couldnt match that in this day and age ...

And before you go on about stolen land again ...as someone who is religious your whole history is full of conquest and displacement ...which I'm presuming you condone ...or are you going to condemn those ...Like I said you're not remotely principaled ...all that matters is the identity of whose on top of the pyramid ...

Why Israel? Do you even know anything about Judaism?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Illegal is an interpretation ...there are a lot of laws I don't agree with that exist ...It's really not that out there an idea ...

And I am sticking to the topic ...you have no problem with land theft this is the point ...cos you have openly supported it provided Muslims have done it ...so you don't have problems with things on principle ...hence why this is on topic ...

I've asked you a few times and you have skipped the question ...Did you have a problem with the Ottomans declaring state land?...or the Jordanians building in the West Bank?...Jordanians annexation btw was only recognised by Britain ...the guys you cluelessly said were pro Israel lol ...

I just want to know if you apply these standards to all?...

On the topic of the law ...no I don't think Israel needs to give land back to nations that went to war with them ...and doesn't need to give land to the Palestinians whose leadership have constantly stuck to the position of we want to wipe you off the map ...so even if the law says pre 1967 I personally feel that if nations go to war and lose territory they can't cry about losing it ...

And honestly what a pathetic example your last line is ...you really are such a child ...

lol. It's a law which is accepted by all members of the UN, the world. IT's not open to interpretation as all have agreed to abide by it.

Again, so breaking a law is NOT wrong? You might think it's childish but If I was to beat you up, take your land and throw your family out, I could still be in the right? This is your idiotic childish logic not mine pal.

 

[shaykh]

Why Israel? Do you even know anything about Judaism?

I doubt you do tbh ...let me guess ...you're gonna inform me about Neturei Karta or some of the Ultra Orthodox Hasidim ...

But I'll indulge you ...give you the opportunity to show what you know about what Jews believe ...

 

[KingKhanWC]

I doubt you do tbh ...let me guess ...you're gonna inform me about Neturei Karta or some of the Ultra Orthodox Hasidim ...

But I'll indulge you ...give you the opportunity to show what you know about what Jews believe ...

So another question you're struggling to answer .

Why should the Jews have a land in this particular location, according to YOU? Tell me

 

[shaykh]

Enlighten me ...you can answer first since you're the one presuming I don't know ...and you do ...

So go on ...tell me ...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Enlighten me ...you can answer first since you're the one presuming I don't know ...and you do ...

So go on ...tell me ...

It's not what all the Jews believe, it's what their doctrine says. Jews have set up state which they claim to be Jewish but also claim its secular.Can it be secular because you cant set up a nation in a particular region because a book tells you? Or it it Jewish?

Tell me which you believe it to be first and then I will answer you?

 

[JaDed]

No. What I am saying all those nations who voted against US and Israel dont accept Israel's policies of claiming all of Jerusalem as it's against International law. You can also check on the many previous votes against Israel in the UN which is more than enough to show it's seen as a Pariah state.

Fair enough on Jerusalem not on the country though as Israel is recognized around the world.

 

[shaykh]

It's not what all the Jews believe, it's what their doctrine says. Jews have set up state which they claim to be Jewish but also claim its secular.Can it be secular because you cant set up a nation in a particular region because a book tells you? Or it it Jewish?

Tell me which you believe it to be first and then I will answer you?

It doesnt have to be one or the other ...ie ruling by Halachic law ...

Living in Israel is one of the things that you find in their scholastic writings ...and the obligation of Halachic law is a fringe idea in a country which is orthodox predominantly ...

Compared to other religions actually they got this aspect right ...so you have all types of Jews within Israel ...and they are all able to function within that space ...

Their implementation of religion is very impressive ...in that nothing is enforced and people are given a choice...

The rabbinate of Israel isn't claiming what you are trying to claim ...what makes the state Jewish isn't the Halacha ...It's that its first and foremost a homeland for Jewish people ...

To Pakistanis this idea should sound familiar ...It's just Israel was able to get this right and Pakistan made a complete mess of it ...

 

[James]

I doubt you do tbh ...let me guess ...you're gonna inform me about Neturei Karta or some of the Ultra Orthodox Hasidim ...

But I'll indulge you ...give you the opportunity to show what you know about what Jews believe ...

Not that you are addressing me but I will weigh in for a moment anyway.

The guy who started the Zionist movement was not sure where to place a Jewish state and narrowed it down to a few options. Argentina was strongly considered.

There is in fact a lot of sparsely populated land on our planet that could have been used for a Jewish state. After such a horrific event as the Holocaust, this could have been negotiated and sorted out in a cordial manner with an amenable party. Bingo - the Jews gratefully get their safe haven and the rest of the world carries on with its own business.

In the end, Palestine was officially chosen for the Zionist project because of its historical connection to the religion of Judaism. In the religion, Jacob - who came from Palestine - changed his name to Israel, and his sons became the Children of Israel.

(A more mischievous view might be that Palestine was also chosen because of its geographical and strategic position relative to the rest of the Middle East, but it would surely be way too cynical for anyone to believe that Western powers could ever help to influence such a thing coming to fruition.)

Zionism in its original form proposes a homeland for the Jewish people. It does not specify where. The main objective is for the Jews, who in their nature are a diaspora and always a minority, to have an opportunity to come together and build their own country where they can be free of discrimination and flourish. Hence, the right of return. Perhaps quite a good catchall idea on the surface of it.

But due to the a) choice of location for settlement and b) the way it has all been done since, Zionism has become a great evil.

 

[Pakistanian]

Not that you are addressing me but I will weigh in for a moment anyway.

The guy who started the Zionist movement was not sure where to place a Jewish state and narrowed it down to a few options. Argentina was strongly considered.

There is in fact a lot of sparsely populated land on our planet that could have been used for a Jewish state. After such a horrific event as the Holocaust, this could have been negotiated and sorted out in a cordial manner with an amenable party. Bingo - the Jews gratefully get their safe haven and the rest of the world carries on with its own business.

In the end, Palestine was officially chosen for the Zionist project because of its historical connection to the religion of Judaism. In the religion, Jacob - who came from Palestine - changed his name to Israel, and his sons became the Children of Israel.

(A more mischievous view might be that Palestine was also chosen because of its geographical and strategic position relative to the rest of the Middle East, but it would surely be way too cynical for anyone to believe that Western powers could ever help to influence such a thing coming to fruition.)

Zionism in its original form proposes a homeland for the Jewish people. It does not specify where. The main objective is for the Jews, who in their nature are a diaspora and always a minority, to have an opportunity to come together and build their own country where they can be free of discrimination and flourish. Hence, the right of return. Perhaps quite a good catchall idea on the surface of it.

But due to the a) choice of location for settlement and b) the way it has all been done since, Zionism has become a great evil.

Doesn't Zionism believe in the return of all of the so called 'chosen people' (Jews) to return to the 'promised land' (Israel/Palestine) and then resurrecting thw Temple of Solomon which would complete some biblical prophecy? At least that's what I think Christian Zionist believe and that's why western Christians are such strong supporters of Israel.

 

[James]

Doesn't Zionism believe in the return of all of the so called 'chosen people' (Jews) to return to the 'promised land' (Israel/Palestine) and then resurrecting thw Temple of Solomon which would complete some biblical prophecy? At least that's what I think Christian Zionist believe and that's why western Christians are such strong supporters of Israel.

That’s what Zionism would be defined as now, particularly Christian Zionism.

Nevertheless had a few things gone differently in history, then we would still have a Jewish state but it would not necessarily be in the exact place that it is now, and therefore maybe all of this pain and bloodshed in the present region could have been avoided. This is why the Israeli settlements - which are both objectively illegal and morally wrong to start with - do not even get off the ground for me in terms of credibility, because the settlements did not even need to be there in the first place - nor did the Jewish homeland.

“Israel” itself is the name that was chosen for the Jewish state, named after Jacob - but, like the location of the Jewish state before it, the name of the Jewish state could also have been different. It could have been anything. Numerous proposals were on the table. A name is just that - a name.

When somebody says they support the idea of a Jewish homeland in which the Jews can live safely and prosperously, sadly now this means that they default to backing the State of Israel.

Yes, many of Israel’s supporters are fully aware of everything that happens in its name because their primary concern is creating Zion - these are horrible people who will wilfully ignore the truth when it is presented to them - however, I genuinely believe that some of the “Zionists” are poorly read and have been media-influenced into their beliefs, and if they delved into the subject more deeply they would change their views.

Remember that the idea of Pakistan was to be a home for Muslims. So a Jewish homeland is not a unique idea in history - and could, in an alternative timeline, have been quite a good idea. A Jewish homeland separate from Israel is actually a much better idea than Israel. However this now an impossibility. And who knows how it will all finally end.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Remember that the idea of Pakistan was to be a home for Muslims. So a Jewish homeland is not a unique idea in history - and could, in an alternative timeline, have been quite a good idea. A Jewish homeland separate from Israel is actually a much better idea than Israel. However this now an impossibility. And who knows how it will all finally end.

Lots of difference. Pakistan was yet another homeland for muslims with Muslims in control of their most holy places. With the Jews getting their only homeland in say south america, who is in control of their most holy sites? The issue is not geopolitical. It is religion.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It doesnt have to be one or the other ...ie ruling by Halachic law ...

Living in Israel is one of the things that you find in their scholastic writings ...and the obligation of Halachic law is a fringe idea in a country which is orthodox predominantly ...

Compared to other religions actually they got this aspect right ...so you have all types of Jews within Israel ...and they are all able to function within that space ...

Their implementation of religion is very impressive ...in that nothing is enforced and people are given a choice...

The rabbinate of Israel isn't claiming what you are trying to claim ...what makes the state Jewish isn't the Halacha ...It's that its first and foremost a homeland for Jewish people ...

To Pakistanis this idea should sound familiar ...It's just Israel was able to get this right and Pakistan made a complete mess of it ...

It's a homeland for Muslim and Christian people as well. I suppose then, there's no reason why at some point in the future it couldn't be a Muslim or Christian state in place of the Jewish state all conditions being favourable.

 

[James]

It's a homeland for Muslim and Christian people as well. I suppose then, there's no reason why at some point in the future it couldn't be a Muslim or Christian state in place of the Jewish state all conditions being favourable.

Whether colloquially known as the Jewish homeland or not - ideally Israel would just be a normal civilised country where Jews, Muslims, Christians and many other kinds of people lived and led regular day-to-day lives. Unfortunately far too many very powerful people (along with their foot soldier defenders and keyboard apologists) feel that the opposite would be better.

 

[shaykh]

Whether colloquially known as the Jewish homeland or not - ideally Israel would just be a normal civilised country where Jews, Muslims, Christians and many other kinds of people lived and led regular day-to-day lives. Unfortunately far too many very powerful people (along with their foot soldier defenders and keyboard apologists) feel that the opposite would be better.

You ever been there James?...you ever spoken to any Israeli Arabs?...they do fine there...places like Haifa for existence have a mix of Jews, Muslims and Christians who get on well in all walks of life...it's much better to be an Israeli Arab than to be an Arab anywhere else really...

A Jewish state means the Jews have rule over the state...but it doesn't have to translate badly...people rightly speak about the Ottoman state being good to Jews...yet Jews were living under Islamic rule...

In an era of nationalist movements the Jews wanted theirs too...and as for location...it is historically the most logical place...the Zionists were originally offered a state much larger than what they got at the end...see San Remo...and they agreed to partition...the Arabs didn't...not out of concern for Palestinian self determination...but out of a desire to carve the land up for themselves...the rest is history...

I've seen enough evidence of how 20% of Israels population is Arab and how they get on to argue that Arabs would have done just fine under an Israeli state had they not gone to war...no worse than the Jews under the Ottoman state...

I've seen enough evidence of how Arabs look after their own to know Arabs would have faired terribly under Arab rule...and Jews would have fared even worse...

Other things about the Jewish state is just how much difference there is in terms of belief...yet they all accept each other...except the likes of ultra-orthodox...this while sectarianism is rife in the Muslim world...

When people talk about the Palestinian issue they often forget that Israel is 20% Arab...are their conditions perfect?...no...but is life for minorities perfect anywhere?...

The issue with the West Bank and Gaza is politics...and people here are yet to give me a reasonable rational answer for why Israel should do A,B,C...

So James tell me what do you think Israel should do...and try and avoid platitudes...explain how each of your solutions would work as a solution...not from a moral standpoint but on the ground...

 

[shaykh]

Doesn't Zionism believe in the return of all of the so called 'chosen people' (Jews) to return to the 'promised land' (Israel/Palestine) and then resurrecting thw Temple of Solomon which would complete some biblical prophecy? At least that's what I think Christian Zionist believe and that's why western Christians are such strong supporters of Israel.

Living in Israel entails a lot of reward religiously...see their scholars like Maimonides etc...that whole thing about returning to Israel one day has always been a real concept for them...and when the Ottoman Empire was crumbling...and every ethnic group around was working for self determination...so were they...and for Jews...what makes sense?...South America?...Uganda?...or the land of Israel?...

 

[shaykh]

Israeli military really isn't sure what to do at present ...

They told Hamas to clamp down on the groups launching rockets ...but either it's a case of Hamas not having control over the Salafists or Islamic Jihad or they just aren't willing ...

Israeli retaliation has been minimal ...and it's token stuff ...they are hitting stuff that Hamas isn't that fussed about losing ...

Today a rocket hit the Negev ...the dome didn't block it and neither was there the usual alarm ...over 40 rockets have been fired in less than a month now ...

Israel really doesn't want to go to war ...General belief is there is little to be gained ...the alternatives to Hamas are even worse ...

The belief that the defence barrier in regards to the tunnels and tunnel detection in general is keeping the Palestinians at bay ...

And the fact that it's better that Iran is in the news rather than them at the moment ...

There have been no casualties yet but the rockets keep coming ...

The belief that Hamas is interested in calm or able to maintain a calm in Gaza is slowly diminishing ...

 

[KingKhanWC]

It doesnt have to be one or the other ...ie ruling by Halachic law ...

Living in Israel is one of the things that you find in their scholastic writings ...and the obligation of Halachic law is a fringe idea in a country which is orthodox predominantly ...

Compared to other religions actually they got this aspect right ...so you have all types of Jews within Israel ...and they are all able to function within that space ...

Their implementation of religion is very impressive ...in that nothing is enforced and people are given a choice...

The rabbinate of Israel isn't claiming what you are trying to claim ...what makes the state Jewish isn't the Halacha ...It's that its first and foremost a homeland for Jewish people ...

To Pakistanis this idea should sound familiar ...It's just Israel was able to get this right and Pakistan made a complete mess of it ...

So according to you it's both secular and religious ? lol Thats a first

Are Jews a RACE according to you?

 

[shaykh]

So according to you it's both secular and religious ? lol Thats a first

Are Jews a RACE according to you?

Nope Jews are not a race ...and I don't see where you got that inference...

Jews are extremely diverse racially...one day in Tel-Aviv and you see what a melting pot it is of races ...the fact that you can convert also signifies that Judaism is not a race ...neither does it claim to be ...

What Jews are though is a nation of people ...it's a shared culture of which religion plays an aspect ...and Israel is a home for Jewish people ...it's tribal but not race based ...just as you are British irregardless of your racial makeup ...

You continue to ask questions but refuse to give any explanations of your own ...

Explain Judaism like you said you would and how Israel contradicts this idea ...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Nope Jews are not a race ...and I don't see where you got that inference...

Jews are extremely diverse racially...one day in Tel-Aviv and you see what a melting pot it is of races ...the fact that you can convert also signifies that Judaism is not a race ...neither does it claim to be ...

What Jews are though is a nation of people ...it's a shared culture of which religion plays an aspect ...and Israel is a home for Jewish people ...it's tribal but not race based ...just as you are British irregardless of your racial makeup ...

You continue to ask questions but refuse to give any explanations of your own ...

Explain Judaism like you said you would and how Israel contradicts this idea ...

Im trying to understand your strange ideas.


Most Jews see themselves a race. 90% of the worlds Jews support Israel so they support a state based on a race, this is racist in itself. If doesn't matter what you or I think. Would the world allow a White state or a Black state?

Israel is also an apartheid state and according to some worse than South Africa was.

According to the Jewish faith, the Messiah will bring back the Jewish people to form their homeland again.

Who is the Messiah? Was it Theodor Herzl or maybe it's even YOU?

 

[CanadianG00se]

You have no idea, which is understandable. You can do some research, but if that is wanting, I can lead you to more information.

He isn’t completely wrong. Most Indian muslims I know they just dont care or some doesn’t even know thing or two about it. Lets say, they have their own life to worry about.

 

[shaykh]

Im trying to understand your strange ideas.


Most Jews see themselves a race. 90% of the worlds Jews support Israel so they support a state based on a race, this is racist in itself. If doesn't matter what you or I think. Would the world allow a White state or a Black state?

Israel is also an apartheid state and according to some worse than South Africa was.

According to the Jewish faith, the Messiah will bring back the Jewish people to form their homeland again.

Who is the Messiah? Was it Theodor Herzl or maybe it's even YOU?

Lol I think you're the one with the strange ideas ...

You just pluck that 90% out of the air?...no they support a state for Jews ...and as stated in my previous post there are Jews of all races in Israel ...Europeans, middle easterners, Africans, Indians ...the ancestral aspect is simply having a Jewish mother ...and evidently over the years there has been plenty of conversion ...

Since its your assertion that Jews are a race ...can I become white if I want to?...or black?...but you can convert to Judaism...and become a Jew ...ie you can join the tribe ...and are also given the same rights as other Israelis if you choose to live there ...

Try better than to quote the ultra orthodox ...it's like me quoting ISIS to make a point about Muslims ...I understand you have a narrative you want to peddle and thus require a source to fit your narrative but to anyone remotely learned it's easy to see through ...but humour me ...Explain your messiah will bring the Jews back to the homeland again comment ...source it ...

The apartheid comment is just fanciful use of a buzzword ...usually made by people who have very little understanding of what apartheid actually was ...the same uneducated people tend to make claims such as holocaust when describing how Palestinians have been treated ...again feel free to show how this is situation even remotely compares to apartheid ...

 

[shaykh]

A few questions that I'm asking cos i'm not purporting to know the answers...

(1) Were Hindus that left during partition given the opportunity to return to Pakistan and claim their homes back...

(2) Can a non-Muslim become a head of state in Pakistan?...

(3) Does Pakistan give citizenship to non-Muslims?...

(4) Does Pakistan give citizenship to Muslims from other countries?...

 

[Yossarian]

(3) Does Pakistan give citizenship to non-Muslims?...

There have been many non-Muslim Government Ministers, Supreme Court judges and senior military offers, including an Air Vice-Marshall, in the history of Pakistan.
eg

* Jogendranath Mandal was one of the central and leading Founding Fathers of modern state of Pakistan. He served as the countrys first minister of law and labor, was the second minister of commonwealth and Kashmir affairs.

* Chief Justice Alvin “Bobby” Robert Cornelius, Hilal-e-Pakistan, was a Pakistani jurist and judge, serving as the 4th Chief Justice of Pakistan from 1960 until 1968. Alvin Robert Cornelius became the first Christian Chief Justice, making him one of the most famous and influential figures ever to serve on the supreme court.

* Mr. Justice Retired Rana Bhagwandas, a highly respected name of the Pakistani judiciary, was a senior judge and former acting chief justice of the Supreme Court of Pakistan (CJP).

* Justice Rustam Sohrabji Sidhwa was a former judge on the Supreme Court of Pakistan as well as one of the original eleven judges of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.

* Clement Shahbaz Bhatti, popularly known as Shahbaz Bhatti, was a Pakistani politician and elected member of the National Assembly from 2008. He was the first Federal Minister for Minorities Affairs from November 2008 until his tragic assassination on March 2nd 2011 in Islamabad.

* Justice Dorab Framrose Patel was a Pakistan jurist, and lawmaker who served as a former senior judge of Supreme Court of Pakistan and former Chief Justice of Sindh High Court. Justice Patel was a prominent campaigner for the human rights, the founding member of the Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) in 1987 and the co-founder of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan.

* Dr Mira Phailbus became the first woman in Pakistan to be be appointed as Ombudsman. She was given the charge of PunjabÂ’s Ombudsman in March 2013. A prominent educationist, Dr Phailbus remained as Principal of Kinnaird College for several years. She also served as Minister for Education and Minority Affairs in Punjab Government.

* Air Vice-Marshal Eric Gordan Hall was a Pakistan Air Force bomber and fighter pilot, and former director general of the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA). A two-star general in the Pakistan Air Force, Hall had served as Vice Chief of Air Staff and was one of the distinguished pilots who participated in the Indo-Pakistan wars of 1947, 1965 and 1971.

And of course, you must have heard of
* Bishop Michael James Nazir-Ali

Michael James Nazir-Ali was the 106th Bishop of Rochester in the Church of England; he retired in September 2009, taking up a position as director of the Oxford Centre for Training, Research, Advocacy and Dialogue. He holds dual citizenship of both Pakistan and Britain.

source: https://www.mangobaaz.com/68-non-muslims-legends-of-pakistan-that-you-should-know/

Hope that answers your question.

 

[shaykh]

There have been many non-Muslim Government Ministers, Supreme Court judges and senior military offers, including an Air Vice-Marshall, in the history of Pakistan.
eg

* Jogendranath Mandal was one of the central and leading Founding Fathers of modern state of Pakistan. He served as the countrys first minister of law and labor, was the second minister of commonwealth and Kashmir affairs.

* Chief Justice Alvin “Bobby” Robert Cornelius, Hilal-e-Pakistan, was a Pakistani jurist and judge, serving as the 4th Chief Justice of Pakistan from 1960 until 1968. Alvin Robert Cornelius became the first Christian Chief Justice, making him one of the most famous and influential figures ever to serve on the supreme court.

* Mr. Justice Retired Rana Bhagwandas, a highly respected name of the Pakistani judiciary, was a senior judge and former acting chief justice of the Supreme Court of Pakistan (CJP).

* Justice Rustam Sohrabji Sidhwa was a former judge on the Supreme Court of Pakistan as well as one of the original eleven judges of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.

* Clement Shahbaz Bhatti, popularly known as Shahbaz Bhatti, was a Pakistani politician and elected member of the National Assembly from 2008. He was the first Federal Minister for Minorities Affairs from November 2008 until his tragic assassination on March 2nd 2011 in Islamabad.

* Justice Dorab Framrose Patel was a Pakistan jurist, and lawmaker who served as a former senior judge of Supreme Court of Pakistan and former Chief Justice of Sindh High Court. Justice Patel was a prominent campaigner for the human rights, the founding member of the Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) in 1987 and the co-founder of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan.

* Dr Mira Phailbus became the first woman in Pakistan to be be appointed as Ombudsman. She was given the charge of PunjabÂ’s Ombudsman in March 2013. A prominent educationist, Dr Phailbus remained as Principal of Kinnaird College for several years. She also served as Minister for Education and Minority Affairs in Punjab Government.

* Air Vice-Marshal Eric Gordan Hall was a Pakistan Air Force bomber and fighter pilot, and former director general of the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA). A two-star general in the Pakistan Air Force, Hall had served as Vice Chief of Air Staff and was one of the distinguished pilots who participated in the Indo-Pakistan wars of 1947, 1965 and 1971.

And of course, you must have heard of
* Bishop Michael James Nazir-Ali

Michael James Nazir-Ali was the 106th Bishop of Rochester in the Church of England; he retired in September 2009, taking up a position as director of the Oxford Centre for Training, Research, Advocacy and Dialogue. He holds dual citizenship of both Pakistan and Britain.

source: https://www.mangobaaz.com/68-non-muslims-legends-of-pakistan-that-you-should-know/

Hope that answers your question.

Thanks for the response ...not quite ...I wasn't wondering whether non-Muslims in general are given citizenship ...rather is there the possibility or has there been the possibility for non-Muslim immigrants getting citizenship post independence?...so could an Indian Hindu become a citizen?...or say someone Chinese? ...

 

[Yossarian]

Thanks for the response ...not quite ...I wasn't wondering whether non-Muslims in general are given citizenship ...rather is there the possibility or has there been the possibility for non-Muslim immigrants getting citizenship post independence?...so could an Indian Hindu become a citizen?...or say someone Chinese? ...

I'm not sure many non-Muslims migrate to Pakistan.

However,

Dr Ruth Katherina Martha Pfau HI, RM, HP, NQA, SQA[1] (9 September 1929 – 10 August 2017) was a German-born Pakistani[2] physician and nun of the Sisters of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. She moved from Germany to Pakistan and devoted more than 50 years of her life fighting leprosy in Pakistan.

[....]

State funeral

On 19 August 2017, her body lay in state at the Holy Family Hospital in Karachi ahead of the state funeral.[28] The state funeral for Pfau was held at Saint Patrick's Cathedral, in front of which the flags of Pakistan and Vatican City were raised at half mast,[3] with Archbishop Joseph Coutts presiding over the Requiem.[29] The Pakistani flag was draped over her coffin and a 19-gun salute was offered by contingents of all three Pakistan Armed Forces. The ceremony was broadcast live on Pakistan Television.[30] Pfau was reportedly the first Christian and first non-Muslim to have a state funeral in Pakistan.[31] She was then buried at **** Qabaristan, a Christian cemetery in Karachi.[29]

source wiki

Although the article doesn't specifically state she was given Pakistani Citizenship, I doubt Pakistan would give a State funerel to a non-Pakistani citizen.

 

[shaykh]

I'm not sure many non-Muslims migrate to Pakistan.

However,
source wiki

Although the article doesn't specifically state she was given Pakistani Citizenship, I doubt Pakistan would give a State funerel to a non-Pakistani citizen.

Thanks ...the German born Pakistani part would suggest she was more than just a resident ...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Lol I think you're the one with the strange ideas ...

You just pluck that 90% out of the air?...no they support a state for Jews ...and as stated in my previous post there are Jews of all races in Israel ...Europeans, middle easterners, Africans, Indians ...the ancestral aspect is simply having a Jewish mother ...and evidently over the years there has been plenty of conversion ...

90% of Israeli Jews call themselves Zionists. It's a from a poll not plucked out of the air lol Im suprised you didnt receive an email regarding this.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/90...emselves-Zionists-Herzl-Day-poll-finds-454347

Since its your assertion that Jews are a race ...can I become white if I want to?...or black?...but you can convert to Judaism...and become a Jew ...ie you can join the tribe ...and are also given the same rights as other Israelis if you choose to live there ...

Read again. Its not my assertioin, its idiotic to suggest Jews are a race. But Jews themselves believe they are a race which is why in some nations there ar e laws related to Jews and racism.

Care to explai why they claim to be a race? Since they do would it also be acceptable to have a Black nation or a white nation?

Try better than to quote the ultra orthodox ...it's like me quoting ISIS to make a point about Muslims ...I understand you have a narrative you want to peddle and thus require a source to fit your narrative but to anyone remotely learned it's easy to see through ...but humour me ...Explain your messiah will bring the Jews back to the homeland again comment ...source it

Its NOT ultra, just orthodox view. When the idea of Zionism was first introudced the main Jewish scholars were against it and the Rabbi in the holy land was against this move for creatring a nation for Jews as it goes against their teaching.. but I assume you think the Zionists were knowledgable than the main Rabbis?

After the Holocaust, out of desperation and with many leading Rabbis gone, a change of mindset was introduced as Jews were fearful.

This is basic history, yet you claim to know it all?

The apartheid comment is just fanciful use of a buzzword ...usually made by people who have very little understanding of what apartheid actually was ...the same uneducated people tend to make claims such as holocaust when describing how Palestinians have been treated ...again feel free to show how this is situation even remotely compares to apartheid ...

lol Desmond Tutu who knows more than you about Aparthied has little understanding?

You are just defedning a criminal entity and becoming an apologist for crimes against humanity with little to no knowledge. I suggest further training .

 

[shaykh]

90% of Israeli Jews call themselves Zionists. It's a from a poll not plucked out of the air lol Im suprised you didnt receive an email regarding this.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/90...emselves-Zionists-Herzl-Day-poll-finds-454347


Read again. Its not my assertioin, its idiotic to suggest Jews are a race. But Jews themselves believe they are a race which is why in some nations there ar e laws related to Jews and racism.

Care to explai why they claim to be a race? Since they do would it also be acceptable to have a Black nation or a white nation?



Its NOT ultra, just orthodox view. When the idea of Zionism was first introudced the main Jewish scholars were against it and the Rabbi in the holy land was against this move for creatring a nation for Jews as it goes against their teaching.. but I assume you think the Zionists were knowledgable than the main Rabbis?

After the Holocaust, out of desperation and with many leading Rabbis gone, a change of mindset was introduced as Jews were fearful.

This is basic history, yet you claim to know it all?



lol Desmond Tutu who knows more than you about Aparthied has little understanding?

You are just defedning a criminal entity and becoming an apologist for crimes against humanity with little to no knowledge. I suggest further training .

Lol trust me there is very little difficulty in refuting you ...don't give yourself so much credit ...

(1) Anti-Zionists are the Neturei Karta and Satmar Hasidic Jews ...they are a very small minority and no they are not considered remotely orthodox ...that whole 'waiting for the Messiah' is their interpretation ...

(2) I never said 90% of Jews dont support Israel ...I presumed you meant 90% of Jews believe Jews are a race ...now I see you provided a meaningless source to the discussion ...your assertion is Jews consider themselves a race ...and your source for that?...like I said ...the most basic refutation ...conversion...anyone can become a Jew ...they can join the tribe ...can I become white?...can you become black?...the point which you completely didn't bother to address simply cos it doesn't fit your narrative is just how racially diverse Israeli Jews are ...there are Indian Jews who are given the same rights as Mizrahim ...you seem to not understand the difference between a nation and a race ...

(3) and the Apartheid buzzword you wanna bandy around ...Lol at Tutu as your impartial source ...shows your level of your knowledge about things when your argument is 'Desmond says so'...How about this ...show some actual facts ...compare the actual countries ...and bring some actual points ...explain your parameters too ...are you talking about Israel or the West Bank?...or both?...decide which you are talking about ...and bring some actual arguments ...Desmond said so isn't an argument ...