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Actions of Israeli forces in the occupied territories

Lol trust me there is very little difficulty in refuting you ...don't give yourself so much credit ...

(1) Anti-Zionists are the Neturei Karta and Satmar Hasidic Jews ...they are a very small minority and no they are not considered remotely orthodox ...that whole 'waiting for the Messiah' is their interpretation ...

(2) I never said 90% of Jews dont support Israel ...I presumed you meant 90% of Jews believe Jews are a race ...now I see you provided a meaningless source to the discussion ...your assertion is Jews consider themselves a race ...and your source for that?...like I said ...the most basic refutation ...conversion...anyone can become a Jew ...they can join the tribe ...can I become white?...can you become black?...the point which you completely didn't bother to address simply cos it doesn't fit your narrative is just how racially diverse Israeli Jews are ...there are Indian Jews who are given the same rights as Mizrahim ...you seem to not understand the difference between a nation and a race ...

(3) and the Apartheid buzzword you wanna bandy around ...Lol at Tutu as your impartial source ...shows your level of your knowledge about things when your argument is 'Desmond says so'...How about this ...show some actual facts ...compare the actual countries ...and bring some actual points ...explain your parameters too ...are you talking about Israel or the West Bank?...or both?...decide which you are talking about ...and bring some actual arguments ...Desmond said so isn't an argument ...

You're not refuting anything but ignoring my main points.

1. The main Rabbis at the time of the Zionist idea were against it and the main Rabbis of the holy land were also against it. Read my point again. They were not a fringe group but the most prized scholars of the faith. Research who were the main Rabbis of the holy land at the time and what they said in response to the idea of creating a Jewish state.

2. The Jews believe they are a race. Would you accept a black or white nation?

3. lol. You know more about aparthied than Desmond Tutu now. I assume you also know better than Mandela or Einstien too? Even a UN body called Israel an apartheid state and countles world leaders to do. But for you it's a buzzword because youre not the one who is suffering.

As I said, get some more training. Or ask for pay decrease as your propaganda is not up to scratch.
 
You're not refuting anything but ignoring my main points.

1. The main Rabbis at the time of the Zionist idea were against it and the main Rabbis of the holy land were also against it. Read my point again. They were not a fringe group but the most prized scholars of the faith. Research who were the main Rabbis of the holy land at the time and what they said in response to the idea of creating a Jewish state.

2. The Jews believe they are a race. Would you accept a black or white nation?

3. lol. You know more about aparthied than Desmond Tutu now. I assume you also know better than Mandela or Einstien too? Even a UN body called Israel an apartheid state and countles world leaders to do. But for you it's a buzzword because youre not the one who is suffering.

As I said, get some more training. Or ask for pay decrease as your propaganda is not up to scratch.

Goodness me ...is this really the calibre of your arguments ...

(3) I asked for facts ...bring up an example ...don't simply list a few people who have made the point you want ...

Your manner of debate is like someone saying why is Christianity right ...'cos A said so'...

It shows just how shallow your ideas are ...cos you can't produce examples ...you just list people who agree with your narrative ...

A simple question for you...can Israeli Arabs vote?...

Can Arabs and Jews legally sleep together?...

Can Arabs and Jews both study together at university?...

(2) you keep repeating the same rubbish ...as I have said ...can you become black?...Just repeating that Jews are a race without substantiating it just makes you look silly ...

(1) source ...Just saying 'the main rabbi'...provide some actual meat to your argument if you can ...or did Desmond tell you that too?...the majority of Israelis are orthodox as are the IDF ...the chief rabbi is Orthodox ...there are two fringe groups as I have mentioned who oppose Zionism ...
 
Most of the Jews I’ve met think of their identity as a matter of culture and/or ethnicity not race.

Have there been any polls done which show that the majority of Jews see themselves as a race?
 
Goodness me ...is this really the calibre of your arguments ...

(3) I asked for facts ...bring up an example ...don't simply list a few people who have made the point you want ...

Your manner of debate is like someone saying why is Christianity right ...'cos A said so'...

It shows just how shallow your ideas are ...cos you can't produce examples ...you just list people who agree with your narrative ...

A simple question for you...can Israeli Arabs vote?...

Can Arabs and Jews legally sleep together?...

Can Arabs and Jews both study together at university?...

(2) you keep repeating the same rubbish ...as I have said ...can you become black?...Just repeating that Jews are a race without substantiating it just makes you look silly ...

(1) source ...Just saying 'the main rabbi'...provide some actual meat to your argument if you can ...or did Desmond tell you that too?...the majority of Israelis are orthodox as are the IDF ...the chief rabbi is Orthodox ...there are two fringe groups as I have mentioned who oppose Zionism ...

1. It's common historical knowledge Zionism was opposed by the main Rabbis in the world at the time it was first mentioned and until after the Holocaust, but I guess this isn't mentioned in the Zionism debate classes. Go resreach.

2.Are you not reading correctly. I DONT believe Jews are a race, THEY do.

3. Ive mentioned more than Tutu but again you have ignored it. The UN itself has called out Israel for practicing aparthied in a lenghty report, go read it. Arab Israelis may be able to vote or marry but there many laws which discmiinate against them. Israeli Arabs who marry from the West Bank cannot easily bring in their spouses yet ANY Jew from anywhere who has no link to the land or family can move there. What in your limited Zionist mind does this constitute?
 
1. It's common historical knowledge Zionism was opposed by the main Rabbis in the world at the time it was first mentioned and until after the Holocaust, but I guess this isn't mentioned in the Zionism debate classes. Go resreach.

2.Are you not reading correctly. I DONT believe Jews are a race, THEY do.

3. Ive mentioned more than Tutu but again you have ignored it. The UN itself has called out Israel for practicing aparthied in a lenghty report, go read it. Arab Israelis may be able to vote or marry but there many laws which discmiinate against them. Israeli Arabs who marry from the West Bank cannot easily bring in their spouses yet ANY Jew from anywhere who has no link to the land or family can move there. What in your limited Zionist mind does this constitute?

Are Arabs in the West Bank Israeli citizens?...

Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens so can you find anything to substantiate your point ...

Can you list the laws that discriminate against Arab Israelis ...

The UN is the most impartial source you ha r brought up so far ...

You really are dim ...I'm not saying you believe they are a race ...you seem obsessed with the idea that they view themselves as a race ...point is they don't ...I will bring up the example again ...do Jews accept converts?...if they do then how does that constitute them believing they are a race ...they view themselves as a nation ...and as stated people can join ...

You'll be shocked to know that DNA tests have nothing to do with Laws of return ;) ...

Go on ...expand your argument ...now youre going with 'common knowledge'...so go on...give me a name ...get googling ...
 
Are Arabs in the West Bank Israeli citizens?...

Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens so can you find anything to substantiate your point ...

Can you list the laws that discriminate against Arab Israelis ...

The UN is the most impartial source you ha r brought up so far ...

You really are dim ...I'm not saying you believe they are a race ...you seem obsessed with the idea that they view themselves as a race ...point is they don't ...I will bring up the example again ...do Jews accept converts?...if they do then how does that constitute them believing they are a race ...they view themselves as a nation ...and as stated people can join ...

You'll be shocked to know that DNA tests have nothing to do with Laws of return ;) ...

Go on ...expand your argument ...now youre going with 'common knowledge'...so go on...give me a name ...get googling ...

Israeli Arabs are citizens yet when they get married in the west bank they cannot bring their spouses over. This doesn't happen to an Israeli Jew who gets married abroard. Heck any Jew from anywhere can come to live in the Zionist entity, you of course agree this is fine with your Zionist littered mindset.

I dont give two hoots about any Israeli Jew, as far as im concerened they should **** off back to where they came from. But they have lobbied around the world to bring in laws against racism if their Jewish identity is attacked.

The irony is they are racist themselvees. You're black aren't you? How do you feel about the discimination against black Jews in Israel? Or let me guess you think they are not discriminated against? lol
 
Israeli Arabs are citizens yet when they get married in the west bank they cannot bring their spouses over. This doesn't happen to an Israeli Jew who gets married abroard. Heck any Jew from anywhere can come to live in the Zionist entity, you of course agree this is fine with your Zionist littered mindset.

I dont give two hoots about any Israeli Jew, as far as im concerened they should **** off back to where they came from. But they have lobbied around the world to bring in laws against racism if their Jewish identity is attacked.

The irony is they are racist themselvees. You're black aren't you? How do you feel about the discimination against black Jews in Israel? Or let me guess you think they are not discriminated against? lol

On the subject of race ...can you name a single country where 'new' groups are treated perfectly ...

The Ethiopians had problems initially and now they are well integrated ...as with any new group integration takes time ...there were plenty of problems with the cultural differences between Mizrahim and European Jews especially when the Mizrahim arrived en masse from the Arab countries ...

Jews from the Soviet Union also started arriving after the fall ...and they also initially had problems with integration as did the Israelis with integrating them ...

There is currently the issue of Sudanese and Eritrean immigration currently ...and just like the whole world there are issues ...the issue everywhere around the world is 'otherness'...

When neither group is interested in integration it doesn't happen ...if at least one side is then it occurs more easily ...the situation for new groups has improved considerably over time...

On the subject of how Jews view themselves you have gone from 'they believe they are a race'...and have now gone to 'I don't give a .... what they believe'...so look just accept they are not a race and neither do they view themselves as one ...

As for the specific law you have spoken about I don't agree with it ...and when it went to vote it was 6-5 ...but you're speaking as if it has always been in effect ...the reason it got suggested in the first place was because of a terror attack in Haifa by a man who attained Israeli citizenship through marriage ...the particularities of being in conflict with the West Bank and Gaza are relevant here ...even if its a law I don't agree with ...

Out of interest how many Israelis have you met?...you have decided 'they' are racist ...no argument from me that racism exists but I've got to say you do hole Israel to an extremely high standard ...
 
He's at it again.

Yep, on Twitter.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It's not only Pakistan that we pay billions of dollars to for nothing, but also many other countries, and others. As an example, we pay the Palestinians HUNDRED OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year and get no appreciation or respect. They don’t even want to negotiate a long overdue...</p>— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) <a href="https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/948322496591384576?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 2, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">...peace treaty with Israel. We have taken Jerusalem, the toughest part of the negotiation, off the table, but Israel, for that, would have had to pay more. But with the Palestinians no longer willing to talk peace, why should we make any of these massive future payments to them?</p>— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) <a href="https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/948322497602220032?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 2, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
So KKWC ...the task is still this which you haven't dealt with:

(1) Give examples of what makes Israel an Apartheid state ...don't quote people ...give examples ...preventing Arab Israelis from marrying people from the West Bank when at war is not remotely comparable so you need to come up with something better ...Arabs are in politics, vote, can date Jews, buy property etc ...you need to give specific examples of Apartheid in South Africa and show how Israel has laws which match it ...or even practice ...

(2) Show that Jews believe they are a race ...it's a problem for you because it kills your whole idea of 'racist' state...'they believe it' is not an answer ...

(3) Give examples which aren't Nuturei Karta or Satmar who oppose Zionism ...'common knowledge' again is not an answer ...

Remember I used to be an Islamist ...we relied on buzzwords and we also relied on the fact that 90% of people already had a preconceived opinion ...I can honestly say that the majority of people including myself who spoke so confidently and arrogantly on this subject hadn't even bothered to read ...you're no different ...you quote a few people and parrot what you have been told ...I'm actually being polite when I say this ...you remind me of most 16 year olds with an opinion on politics ...
 
He's at it again.

Yep, on Twitter.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It's not only Pakistan that we pay billions of dollars to for nothing, but also many other countries, and others. As an example, we pay the Palestinians HUNDRED OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year and get no appreciation or respect. They don’t even want to negotiate a long overdue...</p>— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) <a href="https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/948322496591384576?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 2, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">...peace treaty with Israel. We have taken Jerusalem, the toughest part of the negotiation, off the table, but Israel, for that, would have had to pay more. But with the Palestinians no longer willing to talk peace, why should we make any of these massive future payments to them?</p>— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) <a href="https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/948322497602220032?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 2, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

To give a breakdown of the possible implications of this move...

The US funded $368m in 2016 to UNRWA which is indeed a quarter of UNRWA's budget...

That said it doesn't put pressure on the PA...the main Palestinians it effects are the Palestinians outside of the West Bank which frankly the PA has little focus on...

UNRWA does operate schools in the West Bank though...it would then be on Europe and the Arab states to look after the Palestinians...UNRWA has generally given the Arab states a reason to not give full rights to Palestinians...thing is likelihood is the Arab countries won't foot the bill nor will they give Palestinians citizenship or rights...

Other than UNRWA the US gives $400m a year to the West Bank and Gaza through USAID which includes $36m to the PA police force...it goes to funding projects in the West Bank and Gaza...considering Israel and the PA work together on fighting Hamas this wouldn't be a good move...but likelihood is that part wouldn't be cut because it is in the interest of all parties here...

The thing that angers the US are the oft peddled idea that the US doesn't fund the PA...they speak about the Great Satan that is the US who didn't give them a single penny last year..which is correct...the PA are not paid directly...

The $290 million dispensed to the PA via the USAID program in 2016 was spent as follows: $71 million for Gaza humanitarian assistance and water, $41 million for water supply and sanitation, $31 million for economic growth, energy, and private sector development, $31 million for infrastructure, roads and community Infrastructure, $25 million for education and youth and $12 million for democracy and governance. Another $75 million was given for indirect support for debt relief.
 
So KKWC ...the task is still this which you haven't dealt with:

(1) Give examples of what makes Israel an Apartheid state ...don't quote people ...give examples ...preventing Arab Israelis from marrying people from the West Bank when at war is not remotely comparable so you need to come up with something better ...Arabs are in politics, vote, can date Jews, buy property etc ...you need to give specific examples of Apartheid in South Africa and show how Israel has laws which match it ...or even practice ...

Quoting people adds to the evidence of apartheid Israel, it shows those who have experienced such a crime against humanity can also see it clearly in other places.

There is plenty of evidence.

If you want a official report by a world body, then I suggest you read ‘Israeli Practices towards the Palestinian People and the Question of Apartheid’ by the UN Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia (ESCWA).
Have you bothered to read it? How about reports from human rights organistaions? If you had bothered to do some research instead of defending Zionism blindly, you would come across more intellectually aware.
What about the laws, have you researched them? I assume you have so please go ahead and refute all of the below.

Section 7A(1) of the Basic Law: The Knesset {1958, passed in 1985}15-Bars a list of candidates from participation in elections to the Knesset “if its aims or actions, expressly or by implication” deny “the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people.

The Law of Political Parties {1982} -Bars the Registrar of Political Parties from registering a political party if it denies “the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic State.” In 2002 both Section 7A(1) of the Basic Law and Knesset and the Law of Political Parties were amended further to bar those whose goals or actions, directly or indirectly, “support armed struggle of an enemy state or of a terror organization, against the State of Israel.” These amendments were added expressly to curtail the political participation of Palestinian Arabs within Israel – such as Azmi Bishara – who have expressed solidarity with Palestinians resisting military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza.

The Emergency Powers (Detention) Law23,24 {1979} and the Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance {1948} - have been used to detain Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel without benefit of trial and without permitting contact with lawyers. The Criminal Procedure (Powers of Enforcement, Detentions) Law {1996} has been used to target Palestinian protests and make mass arrests to stifle political decent.

Law of Return {1950}1 and the Citizenship Law {1952}20,- privilege Jews and Jewish immigration over non-Jews. Jews are granted the right to immigrate and become Israeli citizens even if they have no connection to Israel, while 750,000 Palestinians and their descendants expelled in 1948 have no such right. It is nearly impossible for Palestinians outside Israel to become Israeli citizens.

Population Registry Law {1965}1 –Requires all residents of Israel to register their nationality [i.e., Jewish, Arab, Druze] with the Population Registry and obtain an identity card carrying this information. The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights Says: “a dual system of law discriminates between Jewish Israelis and indigenous Palestinians based on a constructed status of 'Jewish nationality'. This prejudicial application of law is apparent in all processes of the legal system, from the rights to information and fair trial to detention and prison treatment.”

[Possession and Presentation] Law {1982}1 –Residents must carry identity cards at all times and present them to "senior police officers,” to the heads of local authorities, or to police officers or soldiers on duty when requested to do so. Jewish citizens are seldom asked to present their cards, while Palestinians often are.

Under the 2003 policy for "family unification" non-citizen spouses and children of Arab Israeli citizens are prohibited from entering Israel [and living with their spouse/parent]. This means if you are a Palestinian from outside Israel, married to an Israeli, you are barred from living with your spouse in Israel. This does not apply to any other nationality beside Arabs. This “interim” provision has been regularly extended, most recently in January, 2011.
-Israeli Jews (except some orthodox Jews) have to serve in the Israeli army when they turn 18. Most Palestinians are forbidden to serve in the army. Many of the benefits of society are given to people who have served. Preferential treatment of housing, education and other services are given to army veterans.

There is more once you have dealt with above examples, which you requested. Remember these are for Israeli Arab apartheid. I could be here all week giving examples of occupation apartheid.

(2) Show that Jews believe they are a race ...it's a problem for you because it kills your whole idea of 'racist' state...'they believe it' is not an answer ...

A poll stated over 60% of American Jews believe they are Jewish not because of religion but because of their background. There are other similar polls, you can find yourself. Your boy Netanyhau is one example of a secular Jew who doesn’t practice but claims to be a Jew? What about all the secular Jews who think they are Jewish, why is this? It’s not problem for me as there are many other examples of racism even amongst Jews. Being of a black background how do you feel about this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-32813056
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.733109

(3) Give examples which aren't Nuturei Karta or Satmar who oppose Zionism ...'common knowledge' again is not an answer ...

Remember I used to be an Islamist ...we relied on buzzwords and we also relied on the fact that 90% of people already had a preconceived opinion ...I can honestly say that the majority of people including myself who spoke so confidently and arrogantly on this subject hadn't even bothered to read ...you're no different ...you quote a few people and parrot what you have been told ...I'm actually being polite when I say this ...you remind me of most 16 year olds with an opinion on politics ...

You were confused, no Muslim pal. Nobody who was ever a Muslim would then go on to support an entity such as Israel, imo. I told you it was important Rabbis after the idea of Zionism which came about who objected to it’s ideology. The likes of Dr. Moriz Güdemann, chief rabbi of Vienna,, Dr. Judah Magnes, first president of Jerusalem's Hebrew University, , Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch,, The majority of Jewish scholars before the Holocaust disagreed with the notion of creating a Jewish state.
 
Quoting people adds to the evidence of apartheid Israel, it shows those who have experienced such a crime against humanity can also see it clearly in other places.

There is plenty of evidence.

If you want a official report by a world body, then I suggest you read ‘Israeli Practices towards the Palestinian People and the Question of Apartheid’ by the UN Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia (ESCWA).
Have you bothered to read it? How about reports from human rights organistaions? If you had bothered to do some research instead of defending Zionism blindly, you would come across more intellectually aware.
What about the laws, have you researched them? I assume you have so please go ahead and refute all of the below.

Section 7A(1) of the Basic Law: The Knesset {1958, passed in 1985}15-Bars a list of candidates from participation in elections to the Knesset “if its aims or actions, expressly or by implication” deny “the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people.

The Law of Political Parties {1982} -Bars the Registrar of Political Parties from registering a political party if it denies “the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic State.” In 2002 both Section 7A(1) of the Basic Law and Knesset and the Law of Political Parties were amended further to bar those whose goals or actions, directly or indirectly, “support armed struggle of an enemy state or of a terror organization, against the State of Israel.” These amendments were added expressly to curtail the political participation of Palestinian Arabs within Israel – such as Azmi Bishara – who have expressed solidarity with Palestinians resisting military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza.

The Emergency Powers (Detention) Law23,24 {1979} and the Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance {1948} - have been used to detain Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel without benefit of trial and without permitting contact with lawyers. The Criminal Procedure (Powers of Enforcement, Detentions) Law {1996} has been used to target Palestinian protests and make mass arrests to stifle political decent.

Law of Return {1950}1 and the Citizenship Law {1952}20,- privilege Jews and Jewish immigration over non-Jews. Jews are granted the right to immigrate and become Israeli citizens even if they have no connection to Israel, while 750,000 Palestinians and their descendants expelled in 1948 have no such right. It is nearly impossible for Palestinians outside Israel to become Israeli citizens.

Population Registry Law {1965}1 –Requires all residents of Israel to register their nationality [i.e., Jewish, Arab, Druze] with the Population Registry and obtain an identity card carrying this information. The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights Says: “a dual system of law discriminates between Jewish Israelis and indigenous Palestinians based on a constructed status of 'Jewish nationality'. This prejudicial application of law is apparent in all processes of the legal system, from the rights to information and fair trial to detention and prison treatment.”

[Possession and Presentation] Law {1982}1 –Residents must carry identity cards at all times and present them to "senior police officers,” to the heads of local authorities, or to police officers or soldiers on duty when requested to do so. Jewish citizens are seldom asked to present their cards, while Palestinians often are.

Under the 2003 policy for "family unification" non-citizen spouses and children of Arab Israeli citizens are prohibited from entering Israel [and living with their spouse/parent]. This means if you are a Palestinian from outside Israel, married to an Israeli, you are barred from living with your spouse in Israel. This does not apply to any other nationality beside Arabs. This “interim” provision has been regularly extended, most recently in January, 2011.
-Israeli Jews (except some orthodox Jews) have to serve in the Israeli army when they turn 18. Most Palestinians are forbidden to serve in the army. Many of the benefits of society are given to people who have served. Preferential treatment of housing, education and other services are given to army veterans.

There is more once you have dealt with above examples, which you requested. Remember these are for Israeli Arab apartheid. I could be here all week giving examples of occupation apartheid.



A poll stated over 60% of American Jews believe they are Jewish not because of religion but because of their background. There are other similar polls, you can find yourself. Your boy Netanyhau is one example of a secular Jew who doesn’t practice but claims to be a Jew? What about all the secular Jews who think they are Jewish, why is this? It’s not problem for me as there are many other examples of racism even amongst Jews. Being of a black background how do you feel about this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-32813056
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.733109



You were confused, no Muslim pal. Nobody who was ever a Muslim would then go on to support an entity such as Israel, imo. I told you it was important Rabbis after the idea of Zionism which came about who objected to it’s ideology. The likes of Dr. Moriz Güdemann, chief rabbi of Vienna,, Dr. Judah Magnes, first president of Jerusalem's Hebrew University, , Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch,, The majority of Jewish scholars before the Holocaust disagreed with the notion of creating a Jewish state.

This is a massive improvement...well done...

Now dealing with your points...there was disagreement...i'm not an expert on Jewish scholarship and I presume neither are you...as with anything there is disagreement...Magnes btw isn't orthodox at all and didn't disagree on the Messiah thing...Hirsch did...and some other didn't like the secular nature of the state...Abraham Kook is basically the Zionist religious scholar...Alkalai and Kalischer prior initiated the idea...as for the legitimacy of these positions...i'm not a scholar...all I can say is the majority of religious Jews ARE Zionists...and those who advocate anti-Zionism are a huge minority...

You are still finding this concept hard to grasp...ie the Jewish aspect...so let's try this...A non-Jew male marries a Jewish female...they have a child...she's a Jew even if she grows up to be an atheist...she will always be a Jew...her son marries a Christian woman...their child will not be a Jew...so you this odd process where you find children as adults deciding to go through conversion processes to be Jewish...hence the idea of a nation...and as stated the conversion process is almost like a citizenship process...not that you want to of course but you could be Jewish...hence not a race...and this is the basic orthodox idea...

On Ethiopians...like I said integration is a process...the younger generation are much better with people who are black...frankly you can bring up any country in the world and show discrimination between different groups...within groups...as I said being a Jew is citizenship...it would be naive to think that issues of inequality and discrimination that unfortunately exist everywhere...aren't going to permeate in Israel...would you say Britain has ethnic equality for instance?...

On the subject of apartheid...again you haven't dealt with this well...

Section 7A(1) of the Basic Law: The Knesset {1958, passed in 1985}15-Bars a list of candidates from participation in elections to the Knesset “if its aims or actions, expressly or by implication” deny “the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people.

The Law of Political Parties {1982} -Bars the Registrar of Political Parties from registering a political party if it denies “the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic State.” In 2002 both Section 7A(1) of the Basic Law and Knesset and the Law of Political Parties were amended further to bar those whose goals or actions, directly or indirectly, “support armed struggle of an enemy state or of a terror organization, against the State of Israel.” These amendments were added expressly to curtail the political participation of Palestinian Arabs within Israel – such as Azmi Bishara – who have expressed solidarity with Palestinians resisting military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza.

This seems perfectly fair...Palestinian Arabs can run in the Knesset providing they don't try and overthrow the state...

What you have posted above also contradicts FACTS on the ground...there are 18 Arabs in the Knesset...one is Haneen Zoabi who rejects the Jewish state and a two state solution...she openly advocates for a non-Zionist, non-Jewish state...Ahmed Tibi also rejects Zionism and Israel as a Jewish state...

Meir Kahane's political party the Kach however are the only party to have been banned...

Israeli ID Cards haven't had ethnicity on them since 2005...and even then their purpose wasn't segregation (the Saffa comparison)

Israeli Arabs are forbidden from serving in the army :) ...http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37895021
you need to get better at this...Israeli Arabs have the option of not serving in the army...most CHOOSE not to...would you prefer they were forced to?...Arabs who serve get benefits too...

I answered the spouse question...and as for right of return...that is a political issue...and a CITIZENSHIP issue...

Ok I'm going to help you out...since the comparison is Apartheid South Africa...i'll give you a clue...in South Africa the answers to all of these is no...

So were black workers allowed to strike?...
Are there Jew only/Palestinian only signs?...
Can Palestinians appeal an eviction notice?...
Can Arabs go to university with Jewish students?...
Can Arabs buy property?...

One Israeli Arab I do know well lives in Haifa...have a bit of a read about that place sometime...or Akko...
 
This is a massive improvement...well done...

Now dealing with your points...there was disagreement...i'm not an expert on Jewish scholarship and I presume neither are you...as with anything there is disagreement...Magnes btw isn't orthodox at all and didn't disagree on the Messiah thing...Hirsch did...and some other didn't like the secular nature of the state...Abraham Kook is basically the Zionist religious scholar...Alkalai and Kalischer prior initiated the idea...as for the legitimacy of these positions...i'm not a scholar...all I can say is the majority of religious Jews ARE Zionists...and those who advocate anti-Zionism are a huge minority...

I wish you could improve too.

The MAJORITY of Jewish/Scholars before the Holocaust were opposed to Zionism. I’ve already accepted the majority now are Zionists and I don’t blame them after the Holocaust as they are fearful of something like this happening again, esp since Jews have a long history of persecution.

Do you accept the majority at the time Zionism was introduced and before 48 were opposed to the ideology?

You are still finding this concept hard to grasp...ie the Jewish aspect...so let's try this...A non-Jew male marries a Jewish female...they have a child...she's a Jew even if she grows up to be an atheist...she will always be a Jew...her son marries a Christian woman...their child will not be a Jew...so you this odd process where you find children as adults deciding to go through conversion processes to be Jewish...hence the idea of a nation...and as stated the conversion process is almost like a citizenship process...not that you want to of course but you could be Jewish...hence not a race...and this is the basic orthodox idea...

A Jew should be someone who practices Judaism but I agree they have turned this idea into a nation and people which is incorrect. If I stopped being a Muslim, I wont be a Muslim regardless if my parents and their parents were Muslims. The whole idea of Jewishness as a people even if they don’t practice is laughable.

On Ethiopians...like I said integration is a process...the younger generation are much better with people who are black...frankly you can bring up any country in the world and show discrimination between different groups...within groups...as I said being a Jew is citizenship...it would be naive to think that issues of inequality and discrimination that unfortunately exist everywhere...aren't going to permeate in Israel...would you say Britain has ethnic equality for instance?...

White Jews seems to fit in fine but Black Jews never seem to. Nice excuse and it’s a shame as youre black yourself but are being an apologist for racism which is clearly evident even if its against people who have the same colour as you.

On the subject of apartheid...again you haven't dealt with this well...


This seems perfectly fair...Palestinian Arabs can run in the Knesset providing they don't try and overthrow the state...

What you have posted above also contradicts FACTS on the ground...there are 18 Arabs in the Knesset...one is Haneen Zoabi who rejects the Jewish state and a two state solution...she openly advocates for a non-Zionist, non-Jewish state...Ahmed Tibi also rejects Zionism and Israel as a Jewish state...

The point was nothing to do with overthrowing the state but denying the existence of Israel as state for the Jewish people. If it is a democracy and around 20% of them are not Jews, its reasonable they should object to this definition. Why should it be called a home for Jews when there are 20% Muslims. Britain is not a nation for Christians and any such move to call it so would be rejected as it claims to be a secular democracy.



Israeli ID Cards haven't had ethnicity on them since 2005...and even then their purpose wasn't segregation (the Saffa comparison)

Again you keep ignoring the key point here. ‘Jewish citizens are seldom asked to present their cards, while Palestinians often are.’ . If you think both Jews and Arabs are equally checked by their identification , you are either ignorant or once again being a false apologist.



Israeli Arabs are forbidden from serving in the army
...http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37895021
you need to get better at this...Israeli Arabs have the option of not serving in the army...most CHOOSE not to...would you prefer they were forced to?...Arabs who serve get benefits too...

From your own link “"Ninety per cent of the Arabs who serve in the Israeli army don't have equality with Israelis. Many are rejected and those who do serve are not given the same treatment as Jews. Do you really think they are treated equally? lol

I answered the spouse question...and as for right of return...that is a political issue...and a CITIZENSHIP issue...

If an Israeli Arab(citizen) gets married abroad, he/she is not able to bring their spouse while there is no problem for any Jew. It’s a matter of discrimination for one set of citizens.

Ok I'm going to help you out...since the comparison is Apartheid South Africa...i'll give you a clue...in South Africa the answers to all of these is no...

So were black workers allowed to strike?...
Are there Jew only/Palestinian only signs?...
Can Palestinians appeal an eviction notice?...
Can Arabs go to university with Jewish students?...
Can Arabs buy property?...
Where did I suggest it’s equal to SA? Aparthied can vary but is still apartheid. You have failed to address the other points , why?

The Emergency Powers (Detention) Law23,24 {1979} and ‘Israeli Practices towards the Palestinian People and the Question of Apartheid’ by the UN Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia (ESCWA).
 
I wish you could improve too.

The MAJORITY of Jewish/Scholars before the Holocaust were opposed to Zionism. I’ve already accepted the majority now are Zionists and I don’t blame them after the Holocaust as they are fearful of something like this happening again, esp since Jews have a long history of persecution.

Do you accept the majority at the time Zionism was introduced and before 48 were opposed to the ideology?



A Jew should be someone who practices Judaism but I agree they have turned this idea into a nation and people which is incorrect. If I stopped being a Muslim, I wont be a Muslim regardless if my parents and their parents were Muslims. The whole idea of Jewishness as a people even if they don’t practice is laughable.



White Jews seems to fit in fine but Black Jews never seem to. Nice excuse and it’s a shame as youre black yourself but are being an apologist for racism which is clearly evident even if its against people who have the same colour as you.



The point was nothing to do with overthrowing the state but denying the existence of Israel as state for the Jewish people. If it is a democracy and around 20% of them are not Jews, its reasonable they should object to this definition. Why should it be called a home for Jews when there are 20% Muslims. Britain is not a nation for Christians and any such move to call it so would be rejected as it claims to be a secular democracy.





Again you keep ignoring the key point here. ‘Jewish citizens are seldom asked to present their cards, while Palestinians often are.’ . If you think both Jews and Arabs are equally checked by their identification , you are either ignorant or once again being a false apologist.





From your own link “"Ninety per cent of the Arabs who serve in the Israeli army don't have equality with Israelis. Many are rejected and those who do serve are not given the same treatment as Jews. Do you really think they are treated equally? lol



If an Israeli Arab(citizen) gets married abroad, he/she is not able to bring their spouse while there is no problem for any Jew. It’s a matter of discrimination for one set of citizens.


Where did I suggest it’s equal to SA? Aparthied can vary but is still apartheid. You have failed to address the other points , why?

The Emergency Powers (Detention) Law23,24 {1979} and ‘Israeli Practices towards the Palestinian People and the Question of Apartheid’ by the UN Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia (ESCWA).

You do understand the concept of ijtihad I imagine...new realities bring new ideas and new hukms...so the idea of Israel was brought up by a scholar...and some went with it and some didn't...Sephardi scholars as it happens didn't oppose the idea...and yes many did oppose the idea for many different reasons...one was the Messianic angle which you have decided is fact...the other is opposition to a non-Halachic state because of the secularists who were strong in the movement...point is there was a scholastic opinion...now as stated neither you, nor I are qualified to determine which scholastic opinion is correct...

You are basing your understanding of what it means to be Jewish on your own creed's definition...being Jewish has always been nation and citizenship and too when they didn't have a state...this mother thing isn't an innovation...and even the Neturei Karta who you quote subscribe to this definition...it's not only a religious identity...

Is your issue with it failing the democracy test?...it's openly a Jewish state and intends to stay that way hence the whole point of a demographic threat by allowing right of return...so no a non-Jew won't become head of state...just as a non-Muslim won't become head of state in any Muslim countries including your own...would you describe Pakistan as a democracy even though a non-Muslim can't become head of state?...

The key point actually was your point about ethnicity being listed...so you copied and pasted from an outdated source...and no I haven't suggested Arabs and Jews are treated equally...minorities are treated worse...which is endemic in any country...I now live in a country where the minority are gypsies...they are treated worse...I can certainly say that living in Britain I have been treated worse, stopped and searched more etc than the average white person...if you can show me one place on Earth that has equality among all it's citizens i'd love to hear about it...

You stated that Arab's weren't allowed in the army...which was nonsense...as it happens the Druze are certainly treated much better as are the Bedouins because historically speaking they fought alongside the Israelis or didn't choose a side...again the existence of discrimination is something that happens in all countries...the point of Apartheid is discrimination by LAW...

The point about being Jewish again comes to citizenship...you have decided it's a faith...but that is not how they have defined it...so it's like a French person abroad being able to move to France easily...

What's your definition of apartheid?...

I told you I'm not interested in the UN as a source...present points from the source if you want and i'll discuss it...

As for the detention point...lot's of countries do this btw including Britain...but this relates to terrorism which i'm sure you can appreciate is a bit of an issue in Israel...

I fly tomorrow so if won't be on here for a while...look forward to continuing the debate when i return :)
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Jerusalem embassy: Abbas says Trump plan 'slap of the century' <a href="https://t.co/wbKLfQeB7c">https://t.co/wbKLfQeB7c</a></p>— BBC News (World) (@BBCWorld) <a href="https://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/952657884801794048?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 14, 2018</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Talk to Palestinians or pay price of ‘perpetual occupation’ – German FM to <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Israel?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Israel</a> <a href="https://t.co/4NBfWKY3AL">https://t.co/4NBfWKY3AL</a> <a href="https://t.co/0CrSTwtOIa">pic.twitter.com/0CrSTwtOIa</a></p>— RT (@RT_com) <a href="https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/959113336125313025?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 1, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Im glad India did not vote for this move. While Israel has been a great friend of India's you cannot forget the plight of the Palestinians who are being forced out of their own lands because some fools believe in a biblical prophecy.
 
Back...I look forward to your reply :) ...

Hello. Hope the training went well. :)

If I have time and intersest I will.

Will you be visiting the new American Embassy in Jeruslam, have they decided where it will be built?
 
Im glad India did not vote for this move. While Israel has been a great friend of India's you cannot forget the plight of the Palestinians who are being forced out of their own lands because some fools believe in a biblical prophecy.

Stop making stuff up.

Before Modi, which Indian PM visited Israel and vice versa?

Some friendship this is.
 
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Stop making stuff up.

Before Modi, which Indian PM visited Israel and vice versa?

Some friendship this is.

Israel has had diplomatic relationship since the 90's and even helped us in the Kargil war of 1999. Our bilateral trade stands at 5 billion dollars or so. There are no friends in international relations but Israel certainly is a very valuable strategic ally of India's.
 
Scoop: EU statement opposing U.S. embassy move is blocked
Hungary, the Czech Republic and Romania, in coordination with Israel, today blocked a joint EU statement criticizing the relocation of the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem, Israeli officials and European diplomats told me.

Behind the scenes: The initiative to publish the statement was led by France and several other EU member states. Israeli officials say the goal was to present to the U.S. a common position against the move by all 28 member states, and to embarrass and isolate the Trump administration ahead of Monday's ceremony.

According to European diplomats and Israeli officials, the draft statement circulated in European capitals had three points:

  • Jerusalem should be the capital of both states — Israel and the future state of Palestine.
  • The final status of Jerusalem should be negotiated and only determined through negotiations between the parties.
  • The member states of the EU will not follow the U.S. and will not move their embassies to Jerusalem.


According to European diplomats and Israeli officials the French and other member states wanted to publish the statement today as a statement by the EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini supported by all 28 EU members.

But earlier today, Hungary, the Czech Republic and Romania announced they object to the statement and made it impossible to reach the consensus needed to publish it.
A senior European diplomat told me with a lot of frustration: "The Hungarians didn’t want to poke Trump in the eye and the Czechs and the Romanians are considering to move their embassies to Jerusalem against the EU position. This is the state of the EU these days".
https://www.axios.com/hungary-czech-romania-block-eu-statement-against-embassy-move-jerusalem-6b85f6bb-8861-4dab-8473-e542196d1368.html
 
So the new Embassy is about to open.

16+ Palestinians have died today in protests, including a 14 year-old boy, and more than 500 Palestinians have been injured overall.

More than 50 people have died since the protests began.

Nice steps towards a lasting peace then.
 
So the new Embassy is about to open.

16+ Palestinians have died today in protests, including a 14 year-old boy, and more than 500 Palestinians have been injured overall.

More than 50 people have died since the protests began.

Nice steps towards a lasting peace then.

I remember many a conversation back in the day that used to chide Palestinians for not demonstrating non violently. Demonstrate like they do in europe they used to say. Try sit ins etc like in europe and the Israelis will relent. How about a boycott like against south africa? well they are now doing all of this. Has the killing stopped? no. What about BDS? oh your anti-semitic if you do that..and so forth..
 
37 killed, 500 injured as Palestinians protest against opening of US Embassy in Jerusalem

Israeli forces have killed 37 Palestinians and wounded at least 500 in Gaza, health officials said, as troops fired bullets at residents rallying against the Monday opening of the US embassy in Jerusalem.

Tens of thousands of people turned out at locations across the coastal enclave in what was the bloodiest day in Gaza since the 2014 war. Residents ignored warnings from the Israeli military that Palestinians risked their lives by taking part.

Close to forty of the casualties were critically injured and the dead included a 14-year-old boy, Palestinian health officials said. The sky along the frontier was filled with thick black smoke as protesters lit tyres. Intermittent sniper fire was heard and crowds of protesters were seen rushing towards the fence.

The bloodshed marked a violent prelude ahead of Donald Trump’s embassy opening. As ambulances rushed the injured to hospitals in the Gaza strip, preparations were underway in Jerusalem for the ceremony.

“A great day for Israel,” Trump tweeted early on Monday.

Trump’s December declaration on the embassy ignited six weeks of protests as Gaza residents gathered near the Israel border, with groups throwing stonesand vandalising perimeter defences.

To international condemnation, Israeli snipers have killed dozens and wounded around 2,000 when firing on demonstrators in past rallies, according to Gaza’s ministry of health. Monday’s shootings raise the death toll to 58.

“To the rioters, you are taking part in violent riots that jeopardise your lives,” the army said in leaflets dropped by jets on Monday. “Save yourselves and prioritise building your future.”

Gaza’s Hamas-led government said it would not stop people from attempting to break through the metal fence. Hamas has fought three wars with Israel but says it supports peaceful ideals advocated by civilian leaders of the protest movement.

On Monday, loudspeakers at mosques in Gaza called for people to protest as a general strike was observed. Buses picked up residents in the enclave.Black clouds billowed from piles of burning tyres – which organisers say are used as a smokescreen against Israeli snipers.

Israel has portrayed the movement as a terrorist ploy by Hamas, pointing out attempts to damage and breach the fence. The army said it would almost double the number of troops surrounding Gaza and in the occupied West Bank on Monday.

“The rioters are hurling firebombs and explosive devices towards the security fence and IDF forces, and are burning tires, throwing rocks and launching flaming objects in order to ignite fires in Israeli territory and harm IDF troops,” the Israel Defense Forces said in a statement.

Israel’s military said its troops had killed three “terrorists” attempting to place an explosive device adjacent to the fence in the southern area of the strip “under the cover of violent riots”. It said aircraft had struck Hamas military posts after Israeli forces were fired on.

Naftali Bennett, Israel’s education minister, told Israel Radio that anyone who approached the fence would be considered a terrorist. A foreign ministry spokesman labelled protesters “murderous rioters”.

No Israeli has been harmed since gatherings began on 30 March.

Organisers have called for an end to a decade-old Israeli-imposed blockade, and for refugees and their descendants to be allowed to return to their ancestral homes. Monday’s march is anticipated to be the largest yet.

“I’m here because of our land that we want back. We have nothing to lose,” said 25-year-old Mohammed Nabieh, who said he is the descendant of refugees from a village near the Israeli city of Ashdod. “Nobody cares about us. Why should we wait to die slowly?”

Trump recognised Jerusalem as Israel’s capital in December, a move that led to an outcry from world powers and dismay from Palestinians, who see East Jerusalem as the capital of their future state.

The holy city has been one of the most contentious issues in past negotiations, and broad international consensus has been that its status will be settled under a peace deal, although Trump has said Jerusalem is now “off the table”.

Large protests also took place throughout the occupied West Bank and rallies are planned inside Jerusalem at the same time as the embassy event.

About 800 people will attend the inauguration ceremony for the Jerusalem embassy, at 4pm local time, including Trump’s daughter and adviser Ivanka. The US ambassador, David Friedman, will move his office from Tel Aviv into what had been a US consulate building.

Many Israelis have praised the decision to move the diplomatic mission. The Friends of Zion Museum has erected posters in Jerusalem saying: “Make Israel Great Again” and US flags have been hung from buildings in the city.

The Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, said at a reception on Sunday evening that Jerusalem had been “the capital of the Jewish people for the past 3,000 years”.

He added: “It’s been the capital of our state for the past 70 years. It will remain our capital for all time.” The opening of the embassy falls on the 70th anniversary of Israel’s declaration of independence.

Palestinians, however, see the scheduling as an insult. This week they mark the “Nakba”, or catastrophe, commemorating the more than 700,000 Palestinians who fled or were expelled from their homes in the 1948 war surrounding Israel’s creation.

More than 1,000 Israeli police, including special patrol units and undercover officers, will be working near the consulate. Security preparations have taken three months.

Turkey’s president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, said on Monday that the US “has chosen to be a part of the problem rather than the solution”, while the Arab League planned to hold an extraordinary meeting to discuss the “illegal” embassy move, Egypt’s state news agency, Mena, reported

Iran, Israel’s arch-enemy, warned on Monday that the decision would inflame tensions in the Middle East.

Iran’s semi-official Isna news agency on Monday quoted the speaker of its parliament, Ali Larijani, as saying: “These sorts of actions will increase tension in the region and the world.”

Hostility between Iran and Israel reached a peak last week as Israel said it had attacked dozens of Iranian military sites in Syria following what it called a Tehran-ordered rocket barrage attempt on its troops in the occupied Golan Heights.

The incident erupted two days after Trump’s announcement that the US was pulling out of the 2015 Iran nuclear agreement.

Washington has vowed to restart a moribund Middle East peace process, but the Palestinian leadership rejected the US’s traditional role as a mediator following Trump’s Jerusalem declaration.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...bassy-protests
 
The zionists celebrate on one side and the actual owners of land get murdered on the other.

No problem, every empire sees a fall. Maybe not today but tomorrow.
 
So the new Embassy is about to open.

16+ Palestinians have died today in protests, including a 14 year-old boy, and more than 500 Palestinians have been injured overall.

More than 50 people have died since the protests began.

Nice steps towards a lasting peace then.

It is Britain's gift to Arabs. Ilegitimate child of the west.
 
over 40 dead now..theyve fired on a demonstration..no regard for life whatsoever..if this was the otehr way around, well we wouldnt hear the end of it..
 
The current goings on are an absolute disgrace Shame on trump n the international community
 
SAD and terrible.
What is Israel's plan here ?

Trump gets a peace prize after this then Nobel prize would be a bigger joke than ever.
 
Why not have West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine? Surely it would be better for everybody in the long run?

I think that we now need to be invaded by aliens Independence Day-style. That is literally the last remaining happening I can come up with that might make humans put their differences aside and get along with each other a little better.
 
Why not have West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine? Surely it would be better for everybody in the long run?

I think that we now need to be invaded by aliens Independence Day-style. That is literally the last remaining happening I can come up with that might make humans put their differences aside and get along with each other a little better.

Doubt there'll ever be an Israeli PM who'll agree to the division of Jerusalem.

One idea is to have Israel and Palestine join in a European Union like Confederation and have them share Jerusalem as a common capital.
 
Tell you what James how about I takeover your house and you go live in the shed at the bottom of the garden ? Maybe in a few generations my descendants and your descendants can discuss your lot moving back into one third of your house if that's convenient for us ?

The Palestinians have an Internationally recognised human right of return to THEIR property/land. Your 'balanced' formulation only works if you think they are somehow sub-human and/or less deserving of human rights.

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A 2 minute film which distils the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Nakba70?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Nakba70</a> 'the catastrophe' whereby Israel came into being by dispossessing and ethnically cleansing the Palestinians ( thanks to Britain and the Balfour Declaration )<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gaza?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Gaza</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/GazaMassacre?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#GazaMassacre</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/GreatReturnMarch?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#GreatReturnMarch</a> <a href="https://t.co/H2rBxdd2Aw">pic.twitter.com/H2rBxdd2Aw</a></p>— LabourFanTV (@TheBirmingham6) <a href="https://twitter.com/TheBirmingham6/status/996095836005261313?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">14 May 2018</a></blockquote>
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Can't believe people here are still talking about a two state solution with shared sovereignty of Jerusalem, that, if it ever existed, died a long time ago but commentators whether through naivety or deceit try to keep up the charade. Israel has always wanted as much of historic Palestine as possible with the least number of Palestinians in it. The only solution is either the final expulsion of Palestinians by whatever means or a democratic secular one state solution.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here's that horrific moment where Raj Shah calls 55 dead Palestinians and nearly 3,000 injured an 'unfortunate propaganda attempt' by Hamas <a href="https://t.co/b5auF8Z1va">pic.twitter.com/b5auF8Z1va</a></p>— Adrienne Mahsa Varkiani (@AdrienneMahsa) <a href="https://twitter.com/AdrienneMahsa/status/996106195172843522?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 14, 2018</a></blockquote>
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I think people should stop acting emotionally and be goaded by parties who have interests in fueling the flames and benefiting from the constant instability and with the rhetoric about how whose house it was and who was kicked out by whom. This has happened throughout history, is currently happeneing and will happen in the future also.

Civilizations have invaded each other since time immemorial and once we go down this slippery slope of who was there first there is no knowing where it will all end. It is not fair but so is life. Israel isn't going anywhere any time soon so better make the best of the situation and try to find a solution which would afford the current and (more importantly)coming generations a better life instead of this continuous fighting.
 
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People who follow religion,and their empire's religious and brutal conquests actually find an issue with ISRAEL?

Wonder how it would had been if there would had been UN in 10-19 the century?
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Updated numbers from the Palestinian Ministry of Health show 52 people have been killed today in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gaza?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Gaza</a>, including 5 children under 18.</p>— AmnestyInternational (@amnesty) <a href="https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/996067600013692928?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 14, 2018</a></blockquote>
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People who follow religion,and their empire's religious and brutal conquests actually find an issue with ISRAEL?

Wonder how it would had been if there would had been UN in 10-19 the century?

52 people have been killed in the past 24 hours.

We aren't living in the 10th century right now so not sure how that comes into the picture.
 
52 people have been killed in the past 24 hours.

We aren't living in the 10th century right now so not sure how that comes into the picture.

Israel is brutal and is cruel country,that cares for no laws what so ever and has no humanity left, and has complete support of the west, you know what such a country would be called or remembered as? A strong empire , that's how pathetic history and religious empires are.

And to answer your question you know why coz religion, Israel is doing same thing what has been done for years, yet one is brutal and other was ?

And are you saying you are not following anything from the 10th century or before?
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Updated numbers from the Palestinian Ministry of Health show 52 people have been killed today in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gaza?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Gaza</a>, including 5 children under 18.</p>— AmnestyInternational (@amnesty) <a href="https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/996067600013692928?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 14, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Israeli forces kill dozens in Gaza as U.S. Embassy opens in Jerusalem

GAZA/JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli troops shot dead dozens of Palestinian protesters on the Gaza border on Monday when the high-profile opening of the U.S. embassy to Israel in Jerusalem raised tension to boiling point after weeks of demonstrations.

In the bloodiest single day for Palestinians since 2014, Palestinian Health Ministry officials said 55 protesters were killed and 2,700 injured either by live gunfire, tear gas or other means.

The bloodshed drew calls for restraint from some countries, including France and Britain, and stronger criticism from others, with Turkey calling it “a massacre”.

The White House declined to join in urging Israel to exercise caution and pinned the blame squarely on Gaza’s ruling Hamas group, backing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who described the Israeli military’s actions as self-defense of his country’s borders.

In siding squarely with Israel, Washington put distance between itself and its European allies for the second time in a week, after angering France, Germany and others last Tuesday by abandoning an international nuclear deal with Iran.

In contrast to the violent scenes in Gaza, Israeli dignitaries and guests attended a ceremony in Jerusalem to open the U.S. Embassy following its relocation from Tel Aviv.

The move fulfilled a pledge by U.S. President Donald Trump, who in December recognized the holy city as the Israeli capital.

Netanyahu thanked Trump for “having the courage to keep your promises”.

Palestinians seek East Jerusalem as the capital of a state they hope to establish in the occupied West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Israel regards all of the city, including the eastern sector it captured in the 1967 Middle East war and annexed in a move that is not recognized internationally, as its “eternal and indivisible capital”.

Most countries say the status of Jerusalem - a sacred city to Jews, Muslims and Christians - should be determined in a final peace settlement and that moving their embassies now would prejudge any such deal.

Peace talks aimed a finding a two-state solution to the conflict have been frozen since 2014.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-us-embassy-opens-in-jerusalem-idUSKCN1IF0M8
 
Pathetic from US as always ,there was no need whatsoever to move the embassy,there is literally no forward movements ever in middle East, token statements from IRAN/TURKEY others to follow, Palestinians shouldn't depend on them.

Fox news : "Israel is saying three among 52 were armed terrorist" , disgusting channel as usual.
 
Absolutely disgusting how some people on here are trying to tone down the situation.

Lands and lives have been invaded and murdered because of implied “human rights violations”.

And yet there is concrete proof of this here and those same people do not bat an eye.

We see “Pray for Paris Day”.

Well, there ought to be a “Pray for Palestine Year” for all the atrocities committed there.
 
Donald Trump calls Jerusalem embassy move 'a great day for Israel'​

The Gaza Health Ministry said 12 Palestinians were killed by Israeli fire amid mass protests on the border against the transfer of the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

Trump made no reference to the violence in an early morning tweet, instead inviting Twitter followers to watch live coverage of the embassy opening on Fox News channels, which was to begin at 1300 GMT.

"Lead up to 9:00 A.M. (eastern) event has already begun. A great day for Israel!" Trump tweeted.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">U.S. Embassy opening in Jerusalem will be covered live on <a href="https://twitter.com/FoxNews?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@FoxNews</a> & <a href="https://twitter.com/FoxBusiness?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@FoxBusiness</a>. Lead up to 9:00 A.M. (eastern) event has already begun. A great day for Israel!</p>— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) <a href="https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/995980604016611329?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">14 May 2018</a></blockquote>
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Link: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ium=social&utm_campaign=TOI&utm_content=om-bm
 
Israel blames Hamas and how it using women and children as overall strategy to gain propaganda.

But hang on a second. This is the most preposterous argument ever.
Th fact that these people are willing to risk there lives should be enough to tell you exactly what they are going through... blame the terrorists as ice as you like but st the end of the day these people had a choice.
 
Why not have West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine? Surely it would be better for everybody in the long run?

I think that we now need to be invaded by aliens Independence Day-style. That is literally the last remaining happening I can come up with that might make humans put their differences aside and get along with each other a little better.

Why? the only solution to this issue is a one state solution. The sooner the Palestinians get it, the better for them. Isreal is a ethno fascist state and practices apartheid to maintain its democratic majority.

The right of return and a one state solution is what the Palestinians should go for. There is nothing else left to negotiate as Isreal will just ignore any agreement and continue on its way with the support of the western world.

This one is heading for an ultimate showdown either way..whetehr it is in our lifetime or our children's there will be a reckoning no matter what..
 
I have mentioned it many times. Let me reiterate.

The only options for viable peace in that region (emphasis on viable) are :

1) Ask the Palestinians (and not the Israelis) what the terms of peace should be. Israel is in the middle of arab world. It is ilegitimate and expansionist, everybody knows it. The Arabs will never give up if their side isnt the one who decides the terms of peace. Palestinians are the real natives of the land anyway so it is a better stand from the moral aspect as well. This is THE MOST viable solution for lasting peace.

2) Second option is a one state solution. The state should be absolutely democratic and liberal. Palestinians world over be given the right to return to this state. In a few years the Palestinians will out number Israelis and democracy will ensure power falls back into their hands. This is an unlikely scenario and a long shot and neither side will want to go for it. Palestinians wont want to wait for so long and Israelis would foresee it.

3) wait for World war 3 to start and hope that the end favours Palestinians (joke).
 
Has anything on this thread been mentioned that hasn't already been said before? It's the same one state / two debate story being prattled out for a good 30 - 40 years now.

If the Arabs really wanted a Palestinian country, they would have done something about it by now. Too bad they don't.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This photo of Fadi Abu Saleh, a Palestinian in Gaza confronting Israeli soldiers, was widely circulated last week. Israeli troops shot him dead today <a href="https://t.co/MbUmF22m6j">pic.twitter.com/MbUmF22m6j</a></p>— Alex Kane (@alexbkane) <a href="https://twitter.com/alexbkane/status/995998390692573184?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 14, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This photo of Fadi Abu Saleh, a Palestinian in Gaza confronting Israeli soldiers, was widely circulated last week. Israeli troops shot him dead today <a href="https://t.co/MbUmF22m6j">pic.twitter.com/MbUmF22m6j</a></p>— Alex Kane (@alexbkane) <a href="https://twitter.com/alexbkane/status/995998390692573184?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 14, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

What’s he holding in his hand?
 
Has anything on this thread been mentioned that hasn't already been said before? It's the same one state / two debate story being prattled out for a good 30 - 40 years now.

If the Arabs really wanted a Palestinian country, they would have done something about it by now. Too bad they don't.

The arabs have been a waste of space since the middle of the 13th century or before that..they are not the leaders of the Muslim world and the quicker Muslims see this the better for them.
 
The arabs have been a waste of space since the middle of the 13th century or before that..they are not the leaders of the Muslim world and the quicker Muslims see this the better for them.

That they are, but if Palestine is to be formed, they have to be at the helm of it - they're not, so nothing will happen. This was my point.
 
So wait you can see what they have given Middel east,but can't see what they have given South Asia?

They gave problems to every place they set foot on. And numerous problems, not one or two. Are you talking about Kashmir here?
 
That they are, but if Palestine is to be formed, they have to be at the helm of it - they're not, so nothing will happen. This was my point.

Unfortunately this maybe the truth. Until they don't wake up the Palestinians will be stuck in this quagmire..
 
Palestinians are nothing in front of the western backed Zionists. Even Arab countries don't support Palestinians let alone anyone else. They are unarmed living in gutter like appalling conditions. Israel is powerful enough to wipe the floor with all Arab's combined. Makes me feel so very grateful to Allah for giving us a good military. Arab's should have started building army's decades back instead they were gambling, drinking and belly dancing. That is the way of the world now that no one cares about defenceless countries or people. Said it many times that Arab wars and Palestine is not Pakistan's problem, let them deal with it.
 
World would be such a better place if Sanders was President of US and Corbyn PM of UK

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In light of yesterday’s horrific violence in Gaza, in which more than 50 Palestinians were killed and more than 2000 wounded by Israeli snipers, it’s important to understand the desperate situation out of which these protests have arisen. <a href="https://t.co/WLrlGxJKDo">pic.twitter.com/WLrlGxJKDo</a></p>— Bernie Sanders (@SenSanders) <a href="https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/996500719631941632?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 15, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Palestinians who gave Modi a brilliant welcome recently fully aware of what is happening in IoK should ask him for help. No reason for us care about them at all. Pakistanis should remember that Palestinians have never supported any Pakistani cause including Kashmir. I don't care about them at all. Israel can do whatever it wants with them. I feel no pain for them whatsoever and why should any Pakistani do so at all. Too bad if they're weak, hard luck.
 
Palestinians who gave Modi a brilliant welcome recently fully aware of what is happening in IoK should ask him for help. No reason for us care about them at all. Pakistanis should remember that Palestinians have never supported any Pakistani cause including Kashmir. I don't care about them at all. Israel can do whatever it wants with them. I feel no pain for them whatsoever and why should any Pakistani do so at all. Too bad if they're weak, hard luck.

And what do we get in return for extending a hand of friendship? We learned the hard way between 1947 - 1992 so no thank you.
 
And what do we get in return for extending a hand of friendship? We learned the hard way between 1947 - 1992 so no thank you.

Can you be a bit more precise? Who are you talking about here?
 
Can you be a bit more precise? Who are you talking about here?

I'm referring to Indian relations with Palestine for 50 years worth, in return for which we received nothing.

Israel all the way for me.
 
Palestinians who gave Modi a brilliant welcome recently fully aware of what is happening in IoK should ask him for help. No reason for us care about them at all. Pakistanis should remember that Palestinians have never supported any Pakistani cause including Kashmir. I don't care about them at all. Israel can do whatever it wants with them. I feel no pain for them whatsoever and why should any Pakistani do so at all. Too bad if they're weak, hard luck.

I agree with you that Palestinians or Arabs in general have overlooked Pakistan's (arguably THE most important Muslim nation in the world in contemporary times because of Nukes) genuine and legitimate interests in Kashmir which are backed by UN resolutions. I echo your words when it comes to dealing with Palestinian issue. Pakistan shouldnt involve themselves in this mess unless they get assurances from the Arab world on the issue of Kashmir and their dealings with India.

However to say that you dont feel any pain for them is wrong in my opinion. First of all as human beings we should feel that the genocide in Palestine is a humanitarian crisis. Secondly, as muslims we need to feel their pain and give them moral support. We need to raise our voice for them, not as a state policy, but the masses can do it in an unofficial manner using all the resources we can. I know many Arabs are lazy and have a superiority complex for no great reason but let it not make us hate them to the point that we dont feel bad when they are killed mercilessly.
 
What were you expecting from the Palestinians?

Some diplomatic muscle? Why did the Arabs side with Pakistan in each of our wars with you? Why do they veto our membership of the OIC? Why do they largely vote against us at certain resolutions at the UN?
 
Some diplomatic muscle? Why did the Arabs side with Pakistan in each of our wars with you? Why do they veto our membership of the OIC? Why do they largely vote against us at certain resolutions at the UN?

Palestinians sided with Pakistan? How, where and when?
 
Palestinians sided with Pakistan? How, where and when?

They have sided with Pakistan in wars against India - but they are small fries. I was referring to the Arabs at large - including Saudi Arabia and the UAE, who have accorded us the same treatment.
 
They have sided with Pakistan in wars against India - but they are small fries. I was referring to the Arabs at large - including Saudi Arabia and the UAE, who have accorded us the same treatment.

Are you saying Palestinians are not to be considered a sovereign nation and India's relations with them should depend on how other Arab nations treat India? Imo India's support or opposition to Palestinians should depend solely on how Palestine treats India. They opened their arms to Kashmiri killer Modi so you should be happy to support them.
 
Do you really think you will beat them with your army, tanks, rockets and bullets?

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I agree with you that Palestinians or Arabs in general have overlooked Pakistan's (arguably THE most important Muslim nation in the world in contemporary times because of Nukes) genuine and legitimate interests in Kashmir which are backed by UN resolutions. I echo your words when it comes to dealing with Palestinian issue. Pakistan shouldnt involve themselves in this mess unless they get assurances from the Arab world on the issue of Kashmir and their dealings with India.

However to say that you dont feel any pain for them is wrong in my opinion. First of all as human beings we should feel that the genocide in Palestine is a humanitarian crisis. Secondly, as muslims we need to feel their pain and give them moral support. We need to raise our voice for them, not as a state policy, but the masses can do it in an unofficial manner using all the resources we can. I know many Arabs are lazy and have a superiority complex for no great reason but let it not make us hate them to the point that we dont feel bad when they are killed mercilessly.

Well bro if they start feeling pain for the Kashmiris then I will do so for them as well, perhaps. Sorry for being a killjoy and imperfect human however it's human nature to only care for them who do for you. I don't "hate" them, just don't care about them. There superiority complex has been crushed under NATO boots many years back. You are free to feel sorry for them but I don't think any Pakistanis will be joining you. Way pf the world now that might is right. No one cares for a people who even their own care little about. Let other Arab's worry about them, we have our own issues.
 
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