Are Muslims safe in Europe?

[miandadrules]

Yeah but you started it so what do you expect? plus you've already said that all of us display an unwillingness to integrate if you make up stuff I will to

Started what exactly?

Who is all of us?

 

[miandadrules]

I assumed you were reffering to the thousands of labourers in the UAE.

So, you have no issue with their suffering?

 

[shaz619]

Started what exactly?

Who is all of us?

The Brit Pak community off course! the guys you bloody hate! then you'll say oh we're saying you hate us because you have a victim mentality/tribalism which is absolute nonsense, you see you're a product of brum to and you obviously are one of the "good" ones so if you came out alright then it's a bit silly isn't it to say majority of us are unwilling to do x,y,z are the root cause of social problems, violence and ghettos !

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] Would you say all the brit pak community in particular in brum have displayed an unwillingness to integrate with different communities, would you also blame the brit pak community for the lack versatility when it comes to social class in school's? would say we generally grow up with stereotypes towards different communities and are generally intolerant towards one another?

Would you put down majority of the issues in our city in terms of violence and intolerance due to the unwillingness of the Brit pak community to integrate or are the issues in our city are lot deeper then that e.g social issues and all? Also these alleged problems we've have orchestrated with regards to a lack of willingness to integrate, surely the privileged community are immune from the same labels

Many have no doubt about it. One reason is when the immigrants arrived from Pakistan they only had money on their mind and did not consider or fully understand the culture of their new nation. East is East is a brilliant film not only for it's comedy but how it depicts the mentality of British Pakistani's, the father marries an English woman but still continues to hate upon the new culture ,wants to maintain the culture he left in Pakistan for his children. As with him the issue of honour continues to plague people from Pakistani background. Some after decades still feel they cant mix cultures as it may seem they are leaving their own but it's a matter of evolution as long as you continue to keep your key principles which are based on your religious views.

As you know there are many British Pakistani's involved in gang culture, various reasons but many grew up with their fathers working all day and night so didn't have the support to stay away from such circles, others just followed what was handed down to them and others find it attractive due to the status which comes with it. I have many friends still involved in this, it's so common it's accepted in the community to some extent.

 

[miandadrules]

The Brit Pak community off course! the guys you bloody hate! then you'll say oh we're saying you hate us because you have a victim mentality/tribalism which is absolute nonsense, you see you're a product of brum to and you obviously are one of the "good" ones so if you came out alright then it's a bit silly isn't it to say majority of us are unwilling to do x,y,z are the root cause of social problems, violence and ghettos !

Where have I stated the British Pakistani is solely at fault, or even the main culprit?

I didn't say the British Pakistani had a victim mentality I said your posts suggested you had it to a degree and that segregation festers such thinking. It applies to the any segregated community you like. Even the a rich caucasian aristocrat thinks he's a victim, because he can also have inability to see beyond his own emotions and biases.

Simply, because "I came out as a success" there can't be a problem?

I haven't brought up violence, other than discussing the incident you brought up. I mention ghetto's in its true context in that almost exclusive dominance of one group rather than it's colloquial reference.

I you saying there aren't social problems?

I hate the British Pakistani community because I comment on issues I see? To love is to bury your head in the sand? That is what tribalism does.

 

[KingKhanWC]

So, you have no issue with their suffering?

I do which is why we disturbed food parcels to labour areas in Ramadan but it still is a choice and they would rather suffer to feed their families back home.

 

[shaz619]

Many have no doubt about it. One reason is when the immigrants arrived from Pakistan they only had money on their mind and did not consider or fully understand the culture of their new nation. East is East is a brilliant film not only for it's comedy but how it depicts the mentality of British Pakistani's, the father marries an English woman but still continues to hate upon the new culture ,wants to maintain the culture he left in Pakistan for his children. As with him the issue of honour continues to plague people from Pakistani background. Some after decades still feel they cant mix cultures as it may seem they are leaving their own but it's a matter of evolution as long as you continue to keep your key principles which are based on your religious views.

As you know there are many British Pakistani's involved in gang culture, various reasons but many grew up with their fathers working all day and night so didn't have the support to stay away from such circles, others just followed what was handed down to them and others find it attractive due to the status which comes with it. I have many friends still involved in this, it's so common it's accepted in the community to some extent.

With the older generations that's certainly true and while problems remain the future is bright, the current generations do not inherit the backward mentality of those who came before them. There are gangs but as you know have declined, there is no SHM, WestMan, AstonBoy, BurgerBar etc they have declined big time not that am denying there are still factions which exist. An effort to limit road warriors has been made as well and there is no denial of problems existing but you know to make generalisations and to pin point the root cause on a single community in particular doesn't make sense to me.

 

[shaz619]

Where have I stated the British Pakistani is solely at fault, or even the main culprit?

I didn't say the British Pakistani had a victim mentality I said your posts suggested you had it to a degree and that segregation festers such thinking. It applies to the any segregated community you like. Even the a rich caucasian aristocrat thinks he's a victim, because he can also have inability to see beyond his own emotions and biases.

Simply, because "I came out as a success" there can't be a problem?

I haven't brought up violence, other than discussing the incident you brought up. I mention ghetto's in its true context in that almost exclusive dominance of one group rather than it's colloquial reference.

I you saying there aren't social problems?

I hate the British Pakistani community because I comment on issues I see? To love is to bury your head in the sand? That is what tribalism does.

I think you have certain views so you always think you're at war against me the moment I post something, there has been no denial that social problems do not exist. All am saying is, we're not perfect and work definitely needs to be done but it's no use playing the blame game and there are a number of factors to consider when addressing the issues you've outlined.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I think you have certain views so you always think you're at war against me the moment I post something, there has been no denial that social problems do not exist. All am saying is, we're not perfect and work definitely needs to be done but it's no use playing the blame game and there are a number of factors to consider when addressing the issues you've outlined.

I think miandadrules is just frustrated having lived in Small Heath for many years. Bham is a great city but I can imagine why some would get frustrated seeing old tribal backward behaviours still prevalent. I don't live in an Asian area so perhaps don't have the same frustrations.

 

[shaz619]

I think miandadrules is just frustrated having lived in Small Heath for many years. Bham is a great city but I can imagine why some would get frustrated seeing old tribal backward behaviours still prevalent. I don't live in an Asian area so perhaps don't have the same frustrations.

Yeah you're right, I guess am supposed to understand his grievances more then most people being from the same area. But I don't look at our people as skum and they're not that bad perhaps am not supposed to look for the good in people I guess? besides most of the folk he has an issue with will probably be dead in 10-20 years time; backward behaviours will decline. Moeen Ali comes from the same neighbourhood as well, there will be more people like him moving forward

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

There is a huge problem in Birmingham. It's a city I was born in and have lived here for most of my life.

There are huge problems in the Pakistani community here. People wear Salwar kameez and niqabs regularly. A large chunk of our population do not integrate and do not want to integrate.

Some of us I'm sure contribute towards society, mix and get involved in the wider British community. However, a lot do not. The disproportionate criminal numbers in our community do not help. A lot stems from a lack do education.

I live in Small Heath and love our home
but will move out partly because of the antisocial behaviour of the people. Fly tipping, parking erratically and aggressive verbal behaviour makes me feel the British Pakistani community has failed. I find the community in Pakistani cities to be much more progressive and easier to get on with.

 

[shaz619]

I don't think a correlation can be made between an unwillingness to integrate with what people choose to wear due to preference or personal beliefs, our mothers and sisters don't need to wear a bikini to integrate with the British Community that's what I feel but if people think that is integration then power to you. In fact English folk wouldn't take it that far either besides a couple of bigots and in fact are warmed by the kindness, respect and good will we show them. However, social problems do exist and we often see bad parenting, poverty, broken family's which negatively affect the youth and the quality of local school's are usually not that great either.

But I won't abandon my city, it's not perfect but I will work towards making it better and will not stop in supporting those in need because I believe they can be better and I refuse to single out specific communities, city's or make generalisations because not everything is black and white, a specific issue does not have a single root cause as the contributing factor because then it would be so easy to resolve the problems we face.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I don't think a correlation can be made between an unwillingness to integrate with what people choose to wear due to preference or personal beliefs, our mothers and sisters don't need to wear a bikini to integrate with the British Community that's what I feel but if people think that is integration then power to you. In fact English folk wouldn't take it that far either besides a couple of bigots and in fact are warmed by the kindness, respect and good will we show them. However, social problems do exist and we often see bad parenting, poverty, broken family's which negatively affect the youth and the quality of local school's are usually not that great either.

But I won't abandon my city, it's not perfect but I will work towards making it better and will not stop in supporting those in need because I believe they can be better and I refuse to single out specific communities, city's or make generalisations because not everything is black and white, a specific issue does not have a single root cause as the contributing factor because then it would be so easy to resolve the problems we face.

Good on you for doing that.

My late mother wore a headscarf and nowhere does it say that you have to wear a niqab. In the current climate, I find that elements of our community lack any tact or sensitivity.

I don't agree wearing a bikini is integrating. My example written above highlights that.

Small Heath went to the dogs a long time ago and it just seems to be getting worse.

I try to set a good example like you guys do; but unfortunately we are in a minority.

 

[shaz619]

Good on you for doing that.

My late mother wore a headscarf and nowhere does it say that you have to wear a niqab. In the current climate, I find that elements of our community lack any text or sensitivity.

I don't agree wearing a bikini is integrating. My example written above highlights that.

Small Heath went to the dogs a long time ago and it just seems to be getting worse.

I try to set a good example like you guys do; but unfortunately we are in a minority.

I agree it's not necessary at all and no one in my family wears a niqab either but those who do it's still their personal choice and to disallow that in my opinion would be a direct insult to what this great country stands for and is in no way a behaviour which implies an unwillingness to integrate. I've already said that many of our older generations are quiet backward and their lack of adaptability has lead to poor family upbringing and what not but future generations will not share the same views, e.g people like me and you exist and there are a lot more folk like us out there then you think.

Other problems stem from a number of issues which go beyond our community, in fact they affect many deprived regions e.g poverty, broken family's, hostel culture, poor school's, poor parenting, theft, drug abuse, kids with no parents etc these are all common inner city issues which need to be dealt with through support and understanding, I think it's very easy to point out the sins of man because once we blame an individual or a particular community for the root cause of all the problems we don't really need to do anything to solve what we're dealing with because simply the said person at fault will deteriorate in the slums or prisons because that's how all our issues are dealt with right and it's all a never ending/repeating cycle.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I agree it's not necessary at all and no one in my family wears a niqab either but those who do it's still their personal choice and to disallow that in my opinion would be a direct insult to what this great country stands for and is in no way a behaviour which implies an unwillingness to integrate. I've already said that many of our older generations are quiet backward and their lack of adaptability has lead to poor family upbringing and what not but future generations will not share the same views, e.g people like me and you exist and there are a lot more folk like us out there then you think.

Other problems stem from a number of issues which go beyond our community, in fact they affect many deprived regions e.g poverty, broken family's, hostel culture, poor school's, poor parenting, theft, drug abuse, kids with no parents etc these are all common inner city issues which need to be dealt with through support and understanding, I think it's very easy to point out the sins of man because once we blame an individual or a particular community for the root cause of all the problems we don't really need to do anything to solve what we're dealing with because simply the said person at fault will deteriorate in the slums or prisons because that's how all our issues are dealt with right and it's all a never ending/repeating cycle.

The older generation might have not had a vision. However, at least they integrated through dress sense.

These are inner city issues but why is it that the British Pakistani community has poor education levels and higher levels of crime compared to its Indian and Bangaldeshi counterparts?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

But that's the issue at it's core.

Simply because we don't experience something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

If I use myself as an example, due to my education and social status, along with the circles I now mix in, would it be justifiable for me to say that racism and anti-muslim bigotry doesn't exist as I now hardly ever experience it?

We have to move away from our tribalistic instincts and address the very real issues that affect our fellow humans. Even if it means raising uncomfortable questions.

Everybody would see Integration and Segregation from their own spectacles with culture or religion having an impact.


So I would like you to mention your point of view.


Let us take example of people of Pakistan (Muslim) who migrated to UK and are now UK national.


Whay examples and acts of those leople would you see as getting integrated in society ? And what acts would you term as Segregation ?


Do you think that by being religious and as practicing muslims they are integrating well in the society ? And are they integrating or not ?


Lastly, in your opinion what you think they should be doing and are not doing ?


In your opinion what they should be doing to fully integrate ?

 

[shaz619]

The older generation might have not had a vision. However, at least they integrated through dress sense.

These are inner city issues but why is it that the British Pakistani community has poor education levels and higher levels of crime compared to its Indian and Bangaldeshi counterparts?

I think behaviour is more influential when it comes to integration rather then dress sense. Well they've clearly done a good job tackling the issues which have been outlined but crime and poor education are not a pakistani genetic disorder.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Everybody would see Integration and Segregation from their own spectacles with culture or religion having an impact.


So I would like you to mention your point of view.


Let us take example of people of Pakistan (Muslim) who migrated to UK and are now UK national.


Whay examples and acts of those leople would you see as getting integrated in society ? And what acts would you term as Segregation ?


Do you think that by being religious and as practicing muslims they are integrating well in the society ? And are they integrating or not ?


Lastly, in your opinion what you think they should be doing and are not doing ?


In your opinion what they should be doing to fully integrate ?

People in cities in Pakistan are more progressive.

The U.K. Pakistanis wear clothing (not headscarves which are acceptable) that alienates themselves from society eg niqab and males wearing Salwar kameez. People in the 60s never did that!!

The British pak community provides very little to society. A decent chunk do not work, engage in fly tipping, have a large number of criminals and a large number of uneducated people.

They mostly do not attend things like the Christmas market to show solidarity with the rest of the country. They mostly do not care for the population of the U.K. and just care about their own little issues.

You often find British Pakistanis absent at intellectual debates. A large chunk do not take part in stimulating enriching debates.

They have bought backward village Biraderi politics into the UK. Even the English call it the Biraderi vote!! Some uneducated buffoons end up becoming councillors and MPs as a result. It's absolutely disgusting and has rendered majority Pakistani areas as hopeless ghettoes.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I think behaviour is more influential when it comes to integration rather then dress sense. Well they've clearly done a good job tackling the issues which have been outlined but crime and poor education are not a pakistani genetic disorder.

Pakistanis are I think bottom or second bottom in the education stakes. Why?

 

[mani1]

Pakistanis are I think bottom or second bottom in the education stakes. Why?

Blacks are at the bottom in Education and are by far the highest levels of crime why do you think this is?

Bengali's are near the top of the education figures and are by far the highest poverty stricken group in the Country why?

Also Afro Caribs are by far the least educated yet in London at least are less likely to be in low paid employment than even Indians why?

David Cameron stated Blacks are more likely to be in prison than a top University yet as a percentage Afro Caribeans (least Educated) are much much more likely to get in Oxford than Indians Why?

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Blacks are at the bottom in Education and are by far the highest levels of crime why do you think this is?

Bengali's are near the top of the education figures and are by far the highest poverty stricken group in the Country why?

Also Afro Caribs are by far the least educated yet in London at least are less likely to be in low paid employment than even Indians why?

David Cameron stated Blacks are more likely to be in prison than a top University yet as a percentage Afro Caribeans (least Educated) are much much more likely to get in Oxford than Indians Why?

Some good points. Bengalis have done well and they've invested in their kids' education.

Afro Caribbeans need to be separated into Afticans and West Indians. Africans continue to do well. West Indians still struggle.

West Indians used to rule gangs all over Birmingham but now it's Pakistanis involved more so in crime including drug dealing. West Indians are improving whereas we are getting worse.

Pakistanis who do well often leave the inner city. Small Heath for example will never recover. It's been lost irreversibly to uncivilised people with an attitude problem. It is saddening.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

People in cities in Pakistan are more progressive.

The U.K. Pakistanis wear clothing (not headscarves which are acceptable) that alienates themselves from society eg niqab and males wearing Salwar kameez. People in the 60s never did that!!

The British pak community provides very little to society. A decent chunk do not work, engage in fly tipping, have a large number of criminals and a large number of uneducated people.

They mostly do not attend things like the Christmas market to show solidarity with the rest of the country. They mostly do not care for the population of the U.K. and just care about their own little issues.

You often find British Pakistanis absent at intellectual debates. A large chunk do not take part in stimulating enriching debates.

They have bought backward village Biraderi politics into the UK. Even the English call it the Biraderi vote!! Some uneducated buffoons end up becoming councillors and MPs as a result. It's absolutely disgusting and has rendered majority Pakistani areas as hopeless ghettoes.

Do Bbc (for instance) have a policy for not inviting an educated girl with head scarf or hijab for debate ?


Is culture religion driven or not ?


Does a true religion and its following stop majority of it followers from becoming criminals because of shapping their characters ? Yes or No ?


They male can wear Shalwaar Kameez when they go for friday prayers, when they attend parties at their relatives home, at Eids etc. What stops them from wearing Pant Shirt in public ?


Why they do not focus on education ?


In what sort of debates you want them to take part ?


Do they want to join British gov jobs ?


Do they take part in charity walks ? Do they volunteer in rescue work during storms/floods ? Do they make Non Muslim friends ? Do they invite Non Muslims for dinners ?

Why they don't attend Christmas markets ? Do they think its unislamic ? Who has taught them this ?


If they voted say former governor punjab were they at fault ? Did he deliver ? If say a Pakistani muslim candidate does not deliver do they prefer voting for a non muslim better candidate next time ? If not why ? Who stops them ?

 

[mani1]

Some good points. Bengalis have done well and they've invested in their kids' education.

Afro Caribbeans need to be separated into Afticans and West Indians. Africans continue to do well. West Indians still struggle.

West Indians used to rule gangs all over Birmingham but now it's Pakistanis involved more so in crime including drug dealing. West Indians are improving whereas we are getting worse.

Pakistanis who do well often leave the inner city. Small Heath for example will never recover. It's been lost irreversibly to uncivilised people with an attitude problem. It is saddening.

Don't know about Birmingham but in Bradford they have not. In London Uncle Tony pumped in Billions and called it a national emergency because London schools were by far the worse in the Country now they are by far the best. Bengali's were a big recipients of this emergency.

As for the Jamaicans/Caribeans they tend to get special treatment such as David Cameron putting pressure on top University's to let them get in when in Oxford at least they were already getting in at a much higher percentage than Indians. Also in London they were the ethnic group least likely to be in low pay.

Doesn't make any sense at all

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Do Bbc (for instance) have a policy for not inviting an educated girl with head scarf or hijab for debate ?

A: I don't know the answer

Is culture religion driven or not ?

A: Yes it can be, but they've pushed things too far in a non Muslim country.

Does a true religion and its following stop majority of it followers from becoming criminals because of shapping their characters ? Yes or No ?

A: these people are not practising their religion. They're a lazy bunch of antisocial people.


They male can wear Shalwaar Kameez when they go for friday prayers, when they attend parties at their relatives home, at Eids etc. What stops them from wearing Pant Shirt in public ?

A: They wear them everyday (not just on Eid or Friday's!)

Why they do not focus on education ?

A: Poor role models. Copying 2pac and 50 cent in wearing chains and trying to speak like Jamaicans. They think it's funny and cool to copy the Jamaican accent. They like to be like rappers with fast cars (which they obtain my drug dealing or by hiring on weddings to show off).

In what sort of debates you want them to take part ?

A: Any intellectual debates or discussions. There are lots!!

Do they want to join British gov jobs ?

A: do you mean the cabinet etc? People like Shabana Mahmood have done well (she's a Barrister but I've no doubt her "caste" in terms of biraderi helps her to win here).

Do they take part in charity walks ? Do they volunteer in rescue work during storms/floods ? Do they make Non Muslim friends ? Do they invite Non Muslims for dinners ?

A: Yes there are some increasing amounts of charity in the UK.

They don't have many non Muslim friends and certainly most don't invite them for dinner!!!

Why they don't attend Christmas markets ?

A: they see it as a Pagan festival.

Do they think its unislamic ? Who has taught them this ?

A: Warped backward village opinions .

If they voted say former governor punjab were they at fault ? Did he deliver ? If say a Pakistani muslim candidate does not deliver do they prefer voting for a non muslim better candidate next time ? If not why ? Who stops them ?

A: they vote on basis of biraderi and village to keep themselves in power. They don't care about change!

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Don't know about Birmingham but in Bradford they have not. In London Uncle Tony pumped in Billions and called it a national emergency because London schools were by far the worse in the Country now they are by far the best. Bengali's were a big recipients of this emergency.

As for the Jamaicans/Caribeans they tend to get special treatment such as David Cameron putting pressure on top University's to let them get in when in Oxford at least they were already getting in at a much higher percentage than Indians. Also in London they were the ethnic group least likely to be in low pay.

Doesn't make any sense at all

http://www.dawn.com/news/1168865 Read this about Bangladeshis v Pakistanis.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yeah you're right, I guess am supposed to understand his grievances more then most people being from the same area. But I don't look at our people as skum and they're not that bad perhaps am not supposed to look for the good in people I guess? besides most of the folk he has an issue with will probably be dead in 10-20 years time; backward behaviours will decline. Moeen Ali comes from the same neighbourhood as well, there will be more people like him moving forward

He's probably had some beef within the neighbourhood and is generalising. Most definitely attitudes are changing , recently a friend of mine, her sister has just married a white English guy. I guess in 50 years time, it will evolve to the extent Pakistani culture traits are near non-existent.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

A: they vote on basis of biraderi and village to keep themselves in power. They don't care about change!

Brother out of 12 questions you only answered 1.

I shall await your answers.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

He's probably had some beef within the neighbourhood and is generalising. Most definitely attitudes are changing , recently a friend of mine, her sister has just married a white English guy. I guess in 50 years time, it will evolve to the extent Pakistani culture traits are near non-existent.

Which traits and culture of Pakistanis is Unislamic ? Which does not allow integration ? (In your view)

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Brother out of 12 questions you only answered 1.

I shall await your answers.

I wrote it in the quote of your questions. Sorry the last one appeared outside. Check my post again

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

He's probably had some beef within the neighbourhood and is generalising. Most definitely attitudes are changing , recently a friend of mine, her sister has just married a white English guy. I guess in 50 years time, it will evolve to the extent Pakistani culture traits are near non-existent.

I don't have any beef. I go to work, come
Home and sleep here.
[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] It is the behaviour of the people that I've a problem with. When I returned from
University after 6 years in 2009, I noticed a huge change for the worse.

 

[mani1]

http://www.dawn.com/news/1168865 Read this about Bangladeshis v Pakistanis.

Newham (population; 318,000)

The borough recorded the worst values for deprivation, homelessness and cases of TB in the UK.

83.8% of people in Newham live in deprivation and 27.2% (19,700) of children live in poverty - which although high is around 10% lower than Tower Hamlets.

Tower Hamlets (population 273,000)

More than a third (37.9%) of Tower Hamlets children live in poverty - this is the highest in the country and significantly higher than the UK average of 19.2%.

Deprivation is higher than average (70.2% compared to UK average of 20.4%) and life expectancy for men is lower than the England average, with a predicated life expectancy of 77 years old (but women have a life expectancy of 83).

http://www.wharf.co.uk/news/local-news/child-poverty-worst-tower-hamlets-9377184

As you can see Bengali's in London are actually getting worse despite good GCSE rate.

As per your article he doesn't even live in the UK and Black Caribbeans are very successful in London despite having the worse grades

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

View attachment 71786

View attachment 71787

View attachment 71788

Newham (population; 318,000)

The borough recorded the worst values for deprivation, homelessness and cases of TB in the UK.

83.8% of people in Newham live in deprivation and 27.2% (19,700) of children live in poverty - which although high is around 10% lower than Tower Hamlets.

Tower Hamlets (population 273,000)

More than a third (37.9%) of Tower Hamlets children live in poverty - this is the highest in the country and significantly higher than the UK average of 19.2%.

Deprivation is higher than average (70.2% compared to UK average of 20.4%) and life expectancy for men is lower than the England average, with a predicated life expectancy of 77 years old (but women have a life expectancy of 83).

http://www.wharf.co.uk/news/local-news/child-poverty-worst-tower-hamlets-9377184

As you can see Bengali's in London are actually getting worse despite good GCSE rate.

As per your article he doesn't even live in the UK and Black Caribbeans are very successful in London despite having the worse grades

What is a measure of success of the Caribbeans? Sporting activities...?

 

[mani1]

In my experience living just outside the intercity the settled Pakistani's move out and rent out home and the asylum seeker/"Stoodants" move in

 

[KingKhanWC]

I don't have any beef. I go to work, come
Home and sleep here.

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] It is the behaviour of the people that I've a problem with. When I returned from
University after 6 years in 2009, I noticed a huge change for the worse.

I was referring to miandadrules.

 

[mani1]

What is a measure of success of the Caribbeans? Sporting activities...?

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I was referring to miandadrules.

Sorry.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

View attachment 71790

I wouldn't class them as being successful Bhai. But they're getting better. Slowly.

 

[mani1]

I wouldn't class them as being successful Bhai. But they're getting better. Slowly.

well they are much much less likely to be in low pay in London than Bengali's whom seem to be getting worse fast.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I wrote it in the quote of your questions. Sorry the last one appeared outside. Check my post again

Thank you. I checked.


Aethiests and Agnostics having Muslim names do very well ? Why ? Why they go as far as Post Docs level ? while only a minority of religious muslims reach that level ? Ever thought about it ?

Either Islam is at your fault (Naoozbillah) or religious teachers are at fault (reality)


Religion plays a very very important role in a Muslim's upbringing. Forget about worldly education science education etc, what sort of religion they do have ? What Islam is this which isn't stopping the majority uneducated class from becoming criminals, drug dealers etc ?
Doesn't Islam bring up characters ?


If you read Islamic history than didn't Islam in absense of worldly knowledge/education lifted spiritually dead people and made turned them into spiritual leaders and role models of the highest order ?


Either your version of Islam is the failure or all your religious scholars leaders are at failure. I would Bin a religion which cannot raise ethics morals in me and cannot stop me from doing criminal unethical activities. Religion brings up character if it doesn't it is a failed religion.


Once a Muslim kid is in right direction He will reach top level in education aswell as his profession. His deeds in society, home aswell as personal life due to following religion will be shinning light aswell. He will conquer both fields.


If not than does Islamic practice stop your worldly growth ? I don't think God is cruel to do so.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Thank you. I checked.


Aethiests and Agnostics having Muslim names do very well ? Why ? Why they go as far as Post Docs level ? while only a minority of religious muslims reach that level ? Ever thought about it ?

Either Islam is at your fault (Naoozbillah) or religious teachers are at fault (reality)


Religion plays a very very important role in a Muslim's upbringing. Forget about worldly education science education etc, what sort of religion they do have ? What Islam is this which isn't stopping the majority uneducated class from becoming criminals, drug dealers etc ?
Doesn't Islam bring up characters ?


If you read Islamic history than didn't Islam in absense of worldly knowledge/education lifted spiritually dead people and made turned them into spiritual leaders and role models of the highest order ?


Either your version of Islam is the failure or all your religious scholars leaders are at failure. I would Bin a religion which cannot raise ethics morals in me and cannot stop me from doing criminal unethical activities. Religion brings up character if it doesn't it is a failed religion.


Once a Muslim kid is in right direction He will reach top level in education aswell as his profession. His deeds in society, home aswell as personal life due to following religion will be shinning light aswell. He will conquer both fields.


If not than does Islamic practice stop your worldly growth ? I don't think God is cruel to do so.

Nothing to do with the religion itself. It's whether people choose to follow it. The most devout people I've seen are the Malaysians who I have studied with. They've done really really well

The Pakistani community here and its failure is to do with a lack of vision and people picking and choosing what they want from religion. Hope that answers your point.

 

[miandadrules]

I do which is why we disturbed food parcels to labour areas in Ramadan but it still is a choice and they would rather suffer to feed their families back home.

Well, isn't that gracious of you. Does that meagre act wipe your guilt, I mean they only have the other eleven months to survive.

For someone who is so vociferous about the suffering muslims, you seem at ease with contributing to an economy which enslaves them, whilst exalting the great virtues of that society and promoting it as a great place to travel.

Do you have any evidence that prior to coming to these slave labour camps they are aware of what it will entail? And how merciful of you to say that they have their human rights stripped so they can feed their families.

But I guess that food parcel you packed re-address the imbalance.

 

[miandadrules]

I think you have certain views so you always think you're at war against me the moment I post something, there has been no denial that social problems do not exist. All am saying is, we're not perfect and work definitely needs to be done but it's no use playing the blame game and there are a number of factors to consider when addressing the issues you've outlined.

What war? I'm addressing each point you make, even with constant shifting of emphasis, goal posts and ad hominem attacks.

To identify an issue is to play the blame game? Who am I blaming? Please show who I have blamed.

Yes everything is multifactorial, it would be ignorant to believe otherwise but that doesn't mean we exclude factors we simply are not comfortable with.

 

[miandadrules]

I think miandadrules is just frustrated having lived in Small Heath for many years. Bham is a great city but I can imagine why some would get frustrated seeing old tribal backward behaviours still prevalent. I don't live in an Asian area so perhaps don't have the same frustrations.

I don't live in Small Heath and haven't for very very long time but I do have strong ties both family and friends there as well as the rest of the city.

But as you have made such a sweeping statement, please show where I have mentioned or even hinted at Small Heath or claimed Birmingham was the only city affected?

 

[miandadrules]

With the older generations that's certainly true and while problems remain the future is bright, the current generations do not inherit the backward mentality of those who came before them. There are gangs but as you know have declined, there is no SHM, WestMan, AstonBoy, BurgerBar etc they have declined big time not that am denying there are still factions which exist. An effort to limit road warriors has been made as well and there is no denial of problems existing but you know to make generalisations and to pin point the root cause on a single community in particular doesn't make sense to me.

Where has this been done?

 

[miandadrules]

Yeah you're right, I guess am supposed to understand his grievances more then most people being from the same area. But I don't look at our people as skum and they're not that bad perhaps am not supposed to look for the good in people I guess? besides most of the folk he has an issue with will probably be dead in 10-20 years time; backward behaviours will decline. Moeen Ali comes from the same neighbourhood as well, there will be more people like him moving forward

Where have even hinted referring to anyone as anything, let alone ****? I highlighted the sweeping generalisations and derogatory terms you used to refer to people yet you accuse me of dehumanising people? I'd appreciate it if you could substantiate it.

What age group or ethnic group have I said I have a problem with?

 

[miandadrules]

I don't think a correlation can be made between an unwillingness to integrate with what people choose to wear due to preference or personal beliefs, our mothers and sisters don't need to wear a bikini to integrate with the British Community that's what I feel but if people think that is integration then power to you. In fact English folk wouldn't take it that far either besides a couple of bigots and in fact are warmed by the kindness, respect and good will we show them. However, social problems do exist and we often see bad parenting, poverty, broken family's which negatively affect the youth and the quality of local school's are usually not that great either.

But I won't abandon my city, it's not perfect but I will work towards making it better and will not stop in supporting those in need because I believe they can be better and I refuse to single out specific communities, city's or make generalisations because not everything is black and white, a specific issue does not have a single root cause as the contributing factor because then it would be so easy to resolve the problems we face.

Where has this been done?

 

[miandadrules]

Yeah you're right, I guess am supposed to understand his grievances more then most people being from the same area. But I don't look at our people as skum and they're not that bad perhaps am not supposed to look for the good in people I guess? besides most of the folk he has an issue with will probably be dead in 10-20 years time; backward behaviours will decline. Moeen Ali comes from the same neighbourhood as well, there will be more people like him moving forward

He's probably had some beef within the neighbourhood and is generalising. Most definitely attitudes are changing , recently a friend of mine, her sister has just married a white English guy. I guess in 50 years time, it will evolve to the extent Pakistani culture traits are near non-existent.

I was referring to miandadrules.

Look at the mental gymnastics being performed here.

So, for me to highlight issues within Britain as a whole, across all groups must be because bias and purely based on a emotional response blinding my judgment.

I guess the irony of this is probably lost own you.

 

[shaz619]

What war? I'm addressing each point you make, even with constant shifting of emphasis, goal posts and ad hominem attacks.

To identify an issue is to play the blame game? Who am I blaming? Please show who I have blamed.

Yes everything is multifactorial, it would be ignorant to believe otherwise but that doesn't mean we exclude factors we simply are not comfortable with.

Where has this been done?

Yeah and I think these factors which we're not compatible with and exclude work both ways

 

[shaz619]

Look at the mental gymnastics being performed here.

So, for me to highlight issues within Britain as a whole, across all groups must be because bias and purely based on a emotional response blinding my judgment.

I guess the irony of this is probably lost own you.

Absolutely false, your problem has been with Brit Pakistani and brum from the moment you orchestrated this discussion

 

[shaz619]

Where have even hinted referring to anyone as anything, let alone ****? I highlighted the sweeping generalisations and derogatory terms you used to refer to people yet you accuse me of dehumanising people? I'd appreciate it if you could substantiate it.

What age group or ethnic group have I said I have a problem with?

The person who makes sweeping generalisations is the one who has dehumanised our folk actually, yes you have now you're just pointing a finger at me because you're backtracking on the way you look at us and sugar coating everything with all this whole of britain and all groups thing now

 

[miandadrules]

Everybody would see Integration and Segregation from their own spectacles with culture or religion having an impact.


So I would like you to mention your point of view.


Let us take example of people of Pakistan (Muslim) who migrated to UK and are now UK national.


Whay examples and acts of those leople would you see as getting integrated in society ? And what acts would you term as Segregation ?


Do you think that by being religious and as practicing muslims they are integrating well in the society ? And are they integrating or not ?


Lastly, in your opinion what you think they should be doing and are not doing ?


In your opinion what they should be doing to fully integrate ?

Integration has nothing to do with what you wear, what you do, or how you behave within reason. These are just diversionary terms thrown out by all sides to maintain their primitive attitudes and to demonise the other. Look at the furore over a niqab or hijab. What bearing does what one wear having any bearing on how they conduct themselves, provided it is done on the basis of free will (a discussion of it is truly free will is a separate subject). But it's a convenient tool to demonise a group and that facilitates and in the perpetrators mind legitimises the act of discrimination. Nobody, says I'm a bad person and I'm going to harm the other, they try to rationalise by saying the other is a threat.

This is why segregation is harmful. If you spend 80% of your time around people who have been brought up in exactly the same environment, been taught to think like you and are never truly heard a differing opinion on anything then how are you going to think laterally? Rank tribalism sets in and anything that opposes your worldview is dismissed, with conclusions being drawn before any evidence is ever seen.

I don't think ones religious or political beliefs impact on their ability to integrate provided they aren't at the extreme. But the only way to challenge such extreme attitudes is to have an open dialogue. It's far more difficult to demonise a group of people that the masses are familiar with and understand. How can one understand a group when they aren't allowed access.

As to whether they are integrating or not is a complex one. Where do we have a threshold that qualifies one to be considered integrated?

The issues of Europe are unique to the continent due to mass migration which resulted in ethnic groups congregating in separate areas and then solidifying those borders. Such isolation restricts the free flow of ideas and provides a perfect breeding ground for ignorance and small-minded societal politics, like you may expect in a small village, and allows to freely demonise the "other". These groups have just grown in to concentric circles and that allows extreme views to take hold without being questioned.

Integration for me is the free flow of ideas and empathy, to truly appreciate the others perspective. When the big bearded brown man in funny clothing walks towards you, he is more likely to be a family man struggling to feed his family, whilst struggling with his mortality than a terrorist.

When you see a dishevelled caucasian rather than seeing him as a criminal try to understand the hardships he has had to endure and the the denial of opportunities that many take for granted, that has resulted in society abandoning him.

To fully integrate you need abandon the tribalistic mentality and allow free flow of ideas. That's it.

 

[miandadrules]

Yeah and I think these factors which we're not compatible with and exclude work both ways

Provide examples and proof please.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Well, isn't that gracious of you. Does that meagre act wipe your guilt, I mean they only have the other eleven months to survive.

For someone who is so vociferous about the suffering muslims, you seem at ease with contributing to an economy which enslaves them, whilst exalting the great virtues of that society and promoting it as a great place to travel.

Do you have any evidence that prior to coming to these slave labour camps they are aware of what it will entail? And how merciful of you to say that they have their human rights stripped so they can feed their families.

But I guess that food parcel you packed re-address the imbalance.

Not sure what gave you the idea I feel guilty. A slave is someone who is forced or owned by a third party to work. I've spoken to many, they themselves accept the conditions they work in and its fair to assume many more millions would also accept if it helps provide a better living for their families in their native homeland. It's actually not too different to our grandparents/parents who arrived in the UK to work in low paid jobs and live in shared accommodation with multiple people.

Perhaps if you try to understand something as simple as this it will help your overcome your creative imagination.

 

[miandadrules]

Absolutely false, your problem has been with Brit Pakistani and brum from the moment you orchestrated this discussion

OK, provide some proof. Shouldn't be too difficult, you've said it often enough.

Just one reference or even a hint where I have blamed a particular group.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I don't live in Small Heath and haven't for very very long time but I do have strong ties both family and friends there as well as the rest of the city.

But as you have made such a sweeping statement, please show where I have mentioned or even hinted at Small Heath or claimed Birmingham was the only city affected?

I recall from memory you were ranting about the same issue previously and mentioned Small Heath as one example because you are from there.

I'm assuming you have moved to the Cotswolds to integrate more deeply?

 

[miandadrules]

The person who makes sweeping generalisations is the one who has dehumanised our folk actually, yes you have now you're just pointing a finger at me because you're backtracking on the way you look at us and sugar coating everything with all this whole of britain and all groups thing now

Please provide proof of my back tracking.

I'm not sugar coating anything for you.

Are you just going to continue the slander or are you actually going to substantiate a single claim?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Integration has nothing to do with what you wear, what you do, or how you behave within reason. These are just diversionary terms thrown out by all sides to maintain their primitive attitudes and to demonise the other. Look at the furore over a niqab or hijab. What bearing does what one wear having any bearing on how they conduct themselves, provided it is done on the basis of free will (a discussion of it is truly free will is a separate subject). But it's a convenient tool to demonise a group and that facilitates and in the perpetrators mind legitimises the act of discrimination. Nobody, says I'm a bad person and I'm going to harm the other, they try to rationalise by saying the other is a threat.

This is why segregation is harmful. If you spend 80% of your time around people who have been brought up in exactly the same environment, been taught to think like you and are never truly heard a differing opinion on anything then how are you going to think laterally? Rank tribalism sets in and anything that opposes your worldview is dismissed, with conclusions being drawn before any evidence is ever seen.

I don't think ones religious or political beliefs impact on their ability to integrate provided they aren't at the extreme. But the only way to challenge such extreme attitudes is to have an open dialogue. It's far more difficult to demonise a group of people that the masses are familiar with and understand. How can one understand a group when they aren't allowed access.

As to whether they are integrating or not is a complex one. Where do we have a threshold that qualifies one to be considered integrated?

The issues of Europe are unique to the continent due to mass migration which resulted in ethnic groups congregating in separate areas and then solidifying those borders. Such isolation restricts the free flow of ideas and provides a perfect breeding ground for ignorance and small-minded societal politics, like you may expect in a small village, and allows to freely demonise the "other". These groups have just grown in to concentric circles and that allows extreme views to take hold without being questioned.

Integration for me is the free flow of ideas and empathy, to truly appreciate the others perspective. When the big bearded brown man in funny clothing walks towards you, he is more likely to be a family man struggling to feed his family, whilst struggling with his mortality than a terrorist.

When you see a dishevelled caucasian rather than seeing him as a criminal try to understand the hardships he has had to endure and the the denial of opportunities that many take for granted, that has resulted in society abandoning him.

To fully integrate you need abandon the tribalistic mentality and allow free flow of ideas. That's it.

Watching Test match brother. Reply you later.

Thanks alot for reply. JazaakAllah.

 

[miandadrules]

Not sure what gave you the idea I feel guilty. A slave is someone who is forced or owned by a third party to work. I've spoken to many, they themselves accept the conditions they work in and its fair to assume many more millions would also accept if it helps provide a better living for their families in their native homeland. It's actually not too different to our grandparents/parents who arrived in the UK to work in low paid jobs and live in shared accommodation with multiple people.

Perhaps if you try to understand something as simple as this it will help your overcome your creative imagination.

So you've spoken to them. You've spoken to them before they left or whilst they were there? And your anecdotal evidence is sufficient to draw conclusions on.

So because circumstances have conspired against them it's justifiable to endorse a state that strips them of their basic human rights?

It is very different to the situation of British migrant workers, otherwise you wouldn't be here. But why don't you provide some proof to substantiate the analogy.

Why don't you help me understand these simple concepts.

 

[shaz619]

OK, provide some proof. Shouldn't be too difficult, you've said it often enough.

Just one reference or even a hint where I have blamed a particular group.

Please provide proof of my back tracking.

I'm not sugar coating anything for you.

Are you just going to continue the slander or are you actually going to substantiate a single claim?

Do you remember what made you orchestrate this discussion and which group/city was of interest? were other groups/city's discussed in equal measure?

If you didn't then FINE.

 

[miandadrules]

I recall from memory you were ranting about the same issue previously and mentioned Small Heath as one example because you are from there.

I'm assuming you have moved to the Cotswolds to integrate more deeply?

So, if I mentioned Small Heath, it must be because I had a beef? Where have I mentioned Small Health or even Birmingham being the only problem, or even a single community?

Save your condescending remarks for someone else, you don't have the wit to pull them off.

 

[miandadrules]

Do you remember what made you orchestrate this discussion and which group/city was of interest? were other groups/city's discussed in equal measure?

If you didn't then FINE.

Yes I said the Midlands was the most acute case of a nationwide problem.

Every point I have made has been about the problems nationwide and about al communities, yet you continually brought it back to British Pakistanis, Birmingham and Small Heath.

 

[KingKhanWC]

So you've spoken to them. You've spoken to them before they left or whilst they were there? And your anecdotal evidence is sufficient to draw conclusions on.

So because circumstances have conspired against them it's justifiable to endorse a state that strips them of their basic human rights?

It is very different to the situation of British migrant workers, otherwise you wouldn't be here. But why don't you provide some proof to substantiate the analogy.

Why don't you help me understand these simple concepts.

I'm glad you now understand and accept what a slave is.

I'm not sure why you are assuming these people are stupid and have no idea what they are letting themselves in for. Migrants have been arriving in the UAE from India and Pakistan for decades, they are aware what awaits them. If they chose this life, it's condescending for another person to advise them to go back because the UAE isn't the liberal UK. Perhaps you can go explain to them why they shouldn't be living and working in a country which doesn't give them various rights? Perhaps you're rich enough to feed their families if they go back on your say so?

 

[KingKhanWC]

So, if I mentioned Small Heath, it must be because I had a beef? Where have I mentioned Small Health or even Birmingham being the only problem, or even a single community?

Save your condescending remarks for someone else, you don't have the wit to pull them off.

I never suggested it was only Small Heath where your problem lies. I took it for granted it was not only Bham but other places. I just remember you having a big issue with this area of Bham, generalising many. I hope the life in the Cotswolds has helped you to do your part to integrate, so the posh white people can now say not all British Pakistani's continue their backward culture in ghettos.

 

[shaz619]

Yes I said the Midlands was the most acute case of a nationwide problem.

Every point I have made has been about the problems nationwide and about al communities, yet you continually brought it back to British Pakistanis, Birmingham and Small Heath.

No I didn't, it was what was of interest to you most but you've said that these are nationwide problems and we both agree on this

 

[miandadrules]

I'm glad you now understand and accept what a slave is.

I'm not sure why you are assuming these people are stupid and have no idea what they are letting themselves in for. Migrants have been arriving in the UAE from India and Pakistan for decades, they are aware what awaits them. If they chose this life, it's condescending for another person to advise them to go back because the UAE isn't the liberal UK. Perhaps you can go explain to them why they shouldn't be living and working in a country which doesn't give them various rights? Perhaps you're rich enough to feed their families if they go back on your say so?

I don't accept your selective definition of a slave and nowhere have I even suggested it.

Where have I said they are stupid? Please provide proof that they know that they will have their passports confiscated, stripped of their human rights, have wages with held. Any studies that have been carried out or any material that outlines this?

Who is suggesting they go back?

Being liberal is allowing basic human rights?

Look at the disingenuity being displayed by you in creating this straw man argument. Where have I said that they shouldn't be living and working in the country? I demand that the said country gives them their basic human rights and I won't contribute to an economy which doesn't, let alone promote it as a great place.

 

[miandadrules]

I never suggested it was only Small Heath where your problem lies. I took it for granted it was not only Bham but other places. I just remember you having a big issue with this area of Bham, generalising many. I hope the life in the Cotswolds has helped you to do your part to integrate, so the posh white people can now say not all British Pakistani's continue their backward culture in ghettos.

"You remember", "You think", why don't you substantiate it. Given that I see through your facade why don't you just once go beyond your petty ad hominem attacks.

Oh look, now that you can't counter or substantiate a single thing you have to resort to classless attacks, that I must be seeking acceptance from the host nation. Yet, ironically only one person in this thread felt the need to clearly specify that he had left the "ghetto" without even being asked.

 

[miandadrules]

No I didn't, it was what was of interest to you most but you've said that these are nationwide problems and we both agree on this

Just show me where?

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Just show me where?

I made it about places like Small Heath.

 

[miandadrules]

I made it about places like Small Heath.

It's not that.

It's basically an attempt to delegitimise any point I make to cloud it as something biased and emotionally driven when not a single piece of counter evidence has been offered.

PS I loved my childhood in Small Heath but that doesn't mean it like many other areas doesn't have serious issues that need to be addressed.

 

[shaz619]

Just show me where?

Look on the previous page, Brum, West Midlands were of concern to you as was Tribalism; when you spoke of Tribalism is there a community other then Brit Pak which was of concern or was that just an insult towards me? just because you weren't explicit not like your intentions were not clear actually, you're being very PC and diplomatic miandad

 

[miandadrules]

Look on the previous page, Brum, West Midlands were of concern to you as was Tribalism; when you spoke of Tribalism is there a community other then Brit Pak which was of concern or was that just an insult towards me? just because you weren't explicit not like your intentions were not clear actually, you're being very PC and diplomatic miandad

You're the one making the accusations so please show all where this has taken place.

Where have I even hinted at the tribalism was limited to the Pakistani community? If it was one community that I would refer to it exclusively.

When there is extensive segregation, a tribalistic mentality develops amongst all the segregated groups which results in distrust and ignorance of one another.

How was it an insult towards you? I did say you're statements are reflective of a tribalistic mindset but are you now a byword for the British Pakistani community?

I'm not diplomatic, I am precise with what I say. I only commented on issues I have studied and I only state what I can substantiate.


But you've now made another accusation, this time about my intentions. So why don't you show where you feel this has happened and where I have been duplicitous?

And ask yourself this. What would I gain from attacking the British Pakistani community, for what I can guess you think is to ingratiate myself to the host caucasian population, on a Pakistani forum with another Pakistani?

 

[shaz619]

You're the one making the accusations so please show all where this has taken place.

Where have I even hinted at the tribalism was limited to the Pakistani community? If it was one community that I would refer to it exclusively.

When there is extensive segregation, a tribalistic mentality develops amongst all the segregated groups which results in distrust and ignorance of one another.

How was it an insult towards you? I did say you're statements are reflective of a tribalistic mindset but are you now a byword for the British Pakistani community?

I'm not diplomatic, I am precise with what I say. I only commented on issues I have studied and I only state what I can substantiate.


But you've now made another accusation, this time about my intentions. So why don't you show where you feel this has happened and where I have been duplicitous?

And ask yourself this. What would I gain from attacking the British Pakistani community, for what I can guess you think is to ingratiate myself to the host caucasian population, on a Pakistani forum with another Pakistani?

Alright, I apologise for questioning your intentions.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Integration has nothing to do with what you wear, what you do, or how you behave within reason. These are just diversionary terms thrown out by all sides to maintain their primitive attitudes and to demonise the other. Look at the furore over a niqab or hijab. What bearing does what one wear having any bearing on how they conduct themselves, provided it is done on the basis of free will (a discussion of it is truly free will is a separate subject). But it's a convenient tool to demonise a group and that facilitates and in the perpetrators mind legitimises the act of discrimination. Nobody, says I'm a bad person and I'm going to harm the other, they try to rationalise by saying the other is a threat.

This is why segregation is harmful. If you spend 80% of your time around people who have been brought up in exactly the same environment, been taught to think like you and are never truly heard a differing opinion on anything then how are you going to think laterally? Rank tribalism sets in and anything that opposes your worldview is dismissed, with conclusions being drawn before any evidence is ever seen.

I don't think ones religious or political beliefs impact on their ability to integrate provided they aren't at the extreme. But the only way to challenge such extreme attitudes is to have an open dialogue. It's far more difficult to demonise a group of people that the masses are familiar with and understand. How can one understand a group when they aren't allowed access.

As to whether they are integrating or not is a complex one. Where do we have a threshold that qualifies one to be considered integrated?

The issues of Europe are unique to the continent due to mass migration which resulted in ethnic groups congregating in separate areas and then solidifying those borders. Such isolation restricts the free flow of ideas and provides a perfect breeding ground for ignorance and small-minded societal politics, like you may expect in a small village, and allows to freely demonise the "other". These groups have just grown in to concentric circles and that allows extreme views to take hold without being questioned.

Integration for me is the free flow of ideas and empathy, to truly appreciate the others perspective. When the big bearded brown man in funny clothing walks towards you, he is more likely to be a family man struggling to feed his family, whilst struggling with his mortality than a terrorist.

When you see a dishevelled caucasian rather than seeing him as a criminal try to understand the hardships he has had to endure and the the denial of opportunities that many take for granted, that has resulted in society abandoning him.

To fully integrate you need abandon the tribalistic mentality and allow free flow of ideas. That's it.

An excellent post overall. Not much with which I disagree.

What I have observed in my country is that most religious people their vast majority is extreme and they support extremist views. While there are others who are semireligious or non-religious and they don't have extreme views. There are very few modest muslims who fulfil their religious obligations, are not a threat to anybody's life, honour or business because of the other person's religious beliefs. Wrt contribution to worldly life and success in worldly life the semi religious or non religious people and the moderate muslims are a success.


Why is it so in your opinion ?


Similarly why the majority of these religious folks integrate well in UK ? Does religion teach Tribalism ? Has religion got any relation with tribalism ?

 

[Abdullah719]

Austria’s new law on ‘political Islam’ opens door for crackdown on Muslims

After a hijab and face veil ban, Austria’s right wing government is set to introduce draconian measures against expressions of “political Islam.”
Austria’s right-wing Chancellor Sebastian Kurz has announced a raft of new measures which would make “political Islam” a criminal offence.

Kurz used Twitter to announce the new policy stating “In the fight against political Islam, we will create a criminal offense called ‘political Islam’ in order to be able to take action against those who are not terrorists themselves, but who create the breeding ground for such.”

The announcement caught many by surprise. The draconian measures do not define “political Islam” nor do they lay out the extent that daily Muslim practices and needs could be now criminalised as a result of this new law.

Kurz went on to add, “There will be further possibilities for the closure of the places of worship, the introduction of an imams register, the symbol and association law will be tightened and measures will be taken to drain financial flows for terrorist financing.”

In the past, Austria has shut down several mosques which it deemed to be political. The move at the the time was condemned as a “reflection of the Islamophobic, racist and discriminatory wave” in the country.

Farid Hafez, an Austrian political scientist at the Department of Political Science and Sociology at the University of Salzburg, speaking to TRT World, condemned the latest actions taken by the Kurz government.

“This is the latest step by the government to crush Muslim civil society and send a message out that no one is safe,” said Hafez.

“Making ‘political islam’ a criminal offense would open the doors for every future crackdown,” imperiling all future Muslim activism added Hafez.

Earlier this month, a lone 20-year-old gunman who in the past had attempted to join ISIS (Daesh), attacked several civilians in Vienna. This resulted in four deaths. The attacks were roundly condemned by Muslim groups, and two local Austrian-Turks helped an injured police officer, carrying her to safety.

Kurz’s latest action plan does not indicate in any shape how an attack by a lone individual would have been prevented. Moreover, it threatens to stigmatise wider Muslim society.

One local Austrian journalist attacked the move as a threat to basic freedoms.

“Do we really want to live in a society where experts and the government decide which people are imprisoned for life on sheer suspicion?” he said.

The journalist, Michael Bonvalot, asked whether a law on “political Christianity” was planned, adding that the government’s current measures are “simply populist racism.”

Austria, in recent years, has seen increasing far-right activity and Islamophobic incidents. A report looking at Islamophobia in Europe found that there had been a doubling of Islamophobic incidents in 2019, with 1,050 cases of anti-Muslim hate crime.

In consecutive elections in Austria, the fear of Muslims has been often used as a tool to gain more votes by far-right parties, however, according to the Islamophobia report “no political party to date has really positioned itself against those anti-Muslim claims, suggesting that Islamophobia still enjoys a hegemonic power across the political spectrum.”

In 2019, Austria’s far right government led by Kurz, implemented a hijab ban in primary schools and in 2017, it instituted a controversial ban on face veils. Both moves have been instituted on the grounds of fighting “political Islam”. Many Muslims will now be left wondering what other normative Muslim practices may fall inside the ill-defined government dragnet of “political Islam.”

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/a...lam-opens-door-for-crackdown-on-muslims-41398

 

[FearlessRoar]

UN establishes Srebrenica genocide memorial day​

The UN General Assembly on Thursday voted to create an annual day of remembrance for the 1995 Srebrenica genocide, in which Serb forces killed around 8,000 Muslim men and teenage boys.

The resolution designates July 11 as the International Day of Remembrance of the Srebrenica Genocide.

It also condemns "any denial" of the genocide and urges UN member countries to "preserve the established facts."

The resolution was written by Germany and Rwanda — two countries synonymous with 20th-century genocides — but it has faced fierce opposition from Serbia.

Although the draft resolution does not specifically mention Serbia as the perpetrator, some Serb leaders nevertheless fear it will brand them all as "genocidal" supporters of the mass killing.

In a letter to the rest of the United Nations, Germany and Rwanda said the vote was a "crucial opportunity to unite in honoring the victims and acknowledging the pivotal role played by international courts."

Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic had said he would be at the UN to "fight with all my strength and heart" to block the initiative.

Meanwhile, Serbia's Foreign Minister Marko Djuric promised to "protect our country and our people from a long-term stigma."

Hours before the vote, church bells rang out across Serbia in protest. The Serbian Orthodox Church said it hoped this demonstration would unite Serbs in "prayers, serenity, mutual solidarity and firmness in doing good, despite untrue and unjust accusations it faces at the UN."

The president of the Republika Srpska — the Serb entity that make up around half of Bosnia's territory — has also lobbied against the resolution.

"Bosnia and Herzegovina has reached its end, or to be more precise, it was brought to an end by those who swore to it," Milorad Dodik said on social media.

"All that remains is for us all to make an effort to be good neighbors and to part in peace."

Russia's UN ambassador, Vasily Nebenzia, also criticized the draft resolution, calling it "provocative" and a "threat to peace and security."

Nebenzia claimed that the draft resolution would "erase" the "shameful evidence" of NATO bombing of the former Yugoslavia in 1995 and 1999 by "pinning all the blame on the Serbs."

What happened at Srebrenica?

The Srebrenica massacre took place toward the end of the Bosnian War in which around 100,000 people were killed.

On July 11, 1995, Bosnian Serb forces captured the town of Srebrenica, which was a UN-protected enclave at the time.

In the days that followed, Serb troops separated 8,000 Muslim Bosniak men and teenage boys from their wives, mothers, and sisters, and then slaughtered them.

Victims who tried to escape were chased through the woods and over the mountains around the town.

The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) and the International Court of Justice both found this incident to be an act of genocide. It is also considered the single worst atrocity in Europe since World War II.

UN establishes Srebrenica genocide memorial day – DW – 05/23/2024

A resolution put forward by Germany and Rwanda creates a day of remembrance for the genocide in Bosnia. But Serbia claims the resolution unfairly brands all Serbs as supporters of the massacre.

www.dw.com