Are Shias facing danger of genocide in Pakistan?

[MenInG]

Some posters have mentioned this but lets debate the reality and keep it civil

 

[Pakpak]

0.03 percent of their population has died in terror incidents in the last ten yesr. Compared to 70,000 non Shias.

Shias also run a province and have ran the centre for half the time our nation had democracy.

By the same token are blacks facing genocide in the US. Are muslims facing genocide in India?


As all deaths are similar.

Anyway who says yes is a total moronic person.

 

[liam26]

Lot of Pakistanis brush off " Shia Genocide " as just another Indian Propaganda. But then why are a section of Pakistan media and other International media outlets taking about the issue ?

“If this isn’t Shia genocide, what is?”

https://www.dawn.com/news/744925/if-this-isnt-shia-genocide-what-is

This is NOT sectarian violence, it is Shia genocide

https://tribune.com.pk/article/26282/this-is-not-sectarian-violence-it-is-shia-genocide?amp=1

Pakistan’s Shia genocide

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2012/11/26/pakistans-shia-genocide

Just a few examples.

 

[Tubs]

No, I don't think so.

However, there are many bigoted opinions on Shia from non-Shia Muslims. I'm sure the reverse is true too, but my family and most other Muslims I know are Sunni.

 

[topspin]

When you have ISIS and other terrorist groups in your land then yes Shias, Ahmedis and other minorities have every right to feel unsafe in Pakistan.

Another reason why uniting people by religion (especially in a third world country) just doesn't work.

 

[saeedhk]

100%. There is no doubt about it.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

100%. There is no doubt about it.

Can you back your claim up with statistics? How many Shias get killed on a year to year basis?

I could say all rednecks are incests it doesn’t mean it’s true unless I show proof.

 

[Pakpak]

Can you back your claim up with statistics? How many Shias get killed on a year to year basis?

I could say all rednecks are incests it doesn’t mean it’s true unless I show proof.

The troll gave statistics. 6000 (according to him) over a period of ten years out of a 20+ million population. In the same period 70,000 mainly Sunnis also died by the same terror groups in streets, markets, airports. He, however, washes away those deaths as 'crossfire'.

 

[RickyG]

I find that people have a genuine problem with the term "genocide". Which I find very messed up because essentially what you're saying is that them getting persecuted is okay as long as it is not a genocide.

The fact OP has used the term genocide in this thread effectively means he wants people to answer no to this question to prove a point. Whereas if he used persecution, I don't think many people would deny it.

There is a genuine attempt by some entities in Pakistan to make minorities (Shias & Ahmadis) into second class citizens in this country. That is persecution. Currently we're not going through a strong wave of it no. We have previously gone through strong waves of it like in 2013. But the army has done a better job at keeping things in check as well as Rangers in Karachi. But there are still the odd incidents of target killings.

That being said, the Hazara people are genuinely getting persecuted. If someone does not believe me all they have to do is google Hazara Shias and you'll only find news of them getting killed.

Finally, just because things are relatively better it doesn't mean that there are a lot of people with genocidal feelings towards Shias and Ahmadis. In fact there are a lot of militarized entities (LeJ, SSP, TTP etc) that would conduct a genocide on Shias if the army allowed them to.

That is a scary thought so based on that I will say yes Shias are in danger of facing a genocide if the army ever stopped caring about them.

 

[RickyG]

0.03 percent of their population has died in terror incidents in the last ten yesr. Compared to 70,000 non Shias.

Shias also run a province and have ran the centre for half the time our nation had democracy.

By the same token are blacks facing genocide in the US. Are muslims facing genocide in India?


As all deaths are similar.

Anyway who says yes is a total moronic person.

Outside of Zardari which other leader was Shia? Zardari was in power for 5 years. Is Pakistan 10 years old?

Also are you condoning Shia persecution or denying it? Are you saying Shias don't get killed on the basis of being Shia? Are you saying there are no target killings? Or are you suggesting it's okay because it's not a genocide yet?

 

[Pakpak]

Outside of Zardari which other leader was Shia? Zardari was in power for 5 years. Is Pakistan 10 years old?

Also are you condoning Shia persecution or denying it? Are you saying Shias don't get killed on the basis of being Shia? Are you saying there are no target killings? Or are you suggesting it's okay because it's not a genocide yet?

All the Bhuttos are Shias, Benazir was seen numerous times wearing the Imam Zamin armband. Even if they weren't I don't see even the worst Zardari basher bashing his Shia background. Do you? I mean I didn't even he was Shia until last year.

As for condemning it, maybe you're not aware of my posts on PP (they are particularly boring) but I am one of the people who condemns the sh1t treatment our minorities get and probably the only guy on PP who wants to get rid of the law that stops all the other non-Muslim minorities coming into power. The key however to dealing with such issues is to deal with them with honesty. Blacks are killed every year, due to their race, in the US. Should we call that a genocide too? Muslims are lynched and killed every year in India, and now every few months in their 100s with impunity, is that a genocide too? As one of India's biggest opponents, no its not. Dalits in India are also targeted almost daily, is that a genocide? Palestinians are abused and killed in their thousands, is that a genocide? If all these are genocidal acts then maybe we need to clarify what genocide is.

Pakistan has had a terror problem, which is why we lost 70,000 lives. To an IS supporter or a Wahabbi scumbag anyone who doesn't believe their view is a kafir. They would kill any Sunni too (I mean they have in their 1000s). They seem to have a problem with killing Sunnis now because of security clampdowns. The Hazara community are targeted regularly, the solution is to provide them protection. To increase security. To punish the scumbags who get away with it. And raise awareness among the population that such nonsense exists. If you, however, start screaming genocide when no statistics to support such a conclusion then good luck convincing the average joe when it comes to raising awareness.

I am non-religious btw, incase you think I have some sort of religious agenda.

 

[RickyG]

All the Bhuttos are Shias, Benazir was seen numerous times wearing the Imam Zamin armband. Even if they weren't I don't see even the worst Zardari basher bashing his Shia background. Do you? I mean I didn't even he was Shia until last year.

As for condemning it, maybe you're not aware of my posts on PP (they are particularly boring) but I am one of the people who condemns the sh1t treatment our minorities get and probably the only guy on PP who wants to get rid of the law that stops all the other non-Muslim minorities coming into power. The key however to dealing with such issues is to deal with them with honesty. Blacks are killed every year, due to their race, in the US. Should we call that a genocide too? Muslims are lynched and killed every year in India, and now every few months in their 100s with impunity, is that a genocide too? As one of India's biggest opponents, no its not. Dalits in India are also targeted almost daily, is that a genocide? Palestinians are abused and killed in their thousands, is that a genocide? If all these are genocidal acts then maybe we need to clarify what genocide is.

Pakistan has had a terror problem, which is why we lost 70,000 lives. To an IS supporter or a Wahabbi scumbag anyone who doesn't believe their view is a kafir. They would kill any Sunni too (I mean they have in their 1000s). They seem to have a problem with killing Sunnis now because of security clampdowns. The Hazara community are targeted regularly, the solution is to provide them protection. To increase security. To punish the scumbags who get away with it. And raise awareness among the population that such nonsense exists. If you, however, start screaming genocide when no statistics to support such a conclusion then good luck convincing the average joe when it comes to raising awareness.

I am non-religious btw, incase you think I have some sort of religious agenda.

I don't even know what that first paragraph means but in her own autobiography, Benazir Bhutto said outside of her Persian mother everyone else in her family was Sunni. This is classic Nazi behaviour though. Point to someone evil (Bhuttos/Zardari) and call them Shia to give people a reason to hate someone different from them and lay the blame on a whole group. Although, I do believe you don't realize that's what you're doing.

So you have a problem with the term genocide? Are Shias still being persecuted or not? Why don't you answer that instead of deflecting with other problems in the world that have nothing to do with Pakistan?

Like I said in a different post the OP used the term "genocide" on purpose over "persecution". And there has been a concerted effort over the years to make Shias second class citizens. Between 2012-2016 a large number of Shia scholars, doctors, ex-pats were being targeted and for a reason. These are the people that elevate the society so you take out the well-off or educated, it brings down the whole community.

Wahabis and IS are Sunnis. So even if Sunnis are killing Sunnis they're not killing them because they're Sunnis. They're killing indiscriminately. Whereas Shias, Ahmadis, and often Christians face persecution because of their beliefs.

I don't think you're religious. I just think you're ignorant of the realities because your pride and patriotism blinds you. You're deflecting and denying because the truth is hard for you to swallow.

That's why you would rather deny that a minority is being targeted and persecuted specifically for their set of beliefs even though the Hazara incident just happened 3-4 days ago.

 

[Pakpak]

I don't think you're religious. I just think you're ignorant of the realities because your pride and patriotism blinds you. You're deflecting and denying because the truth is hard for you to swallow.

That's why you would rather deny that a minority is being targeted and persecuted specifically for their set of beliefs even though the Hazara incident just happened 3-4 days ago.

Wow. I thought you were ignorant and misguided but it seems you have severe comprehension skills too as I already answered your question and admitted the community is targeted at times and wrote this above in my post. Since you're unable to read I will post it again:

'' The Hazara community are targeted regularly, the solution is to provide them protection. To increase security. To punish the scumbags who get away with it. And raise awareness among the population that such nonsense exists. If you, however, start screaming genocide when no statistics to support such a conclusion then good luck convincing the average joe when it comes to raising awareness.''

However from being targeted to genocide is a serious charge, if you have statistics to support it I am waiting to see them. Christians too in our nation are brutalised. However they are not victims of genocide. Black people in the US are also brutalised, however they are not victims of genocide.

The rest of your post was rubbish and not worth addressing as I have already addressed those points multiple times.

Now if you have statistics that the Shia community are being wiped out in Pakistan and are in danger of extinction like the Aborignals have been in the West or the Jews were in Europe then please present them so we can all admit its a genocide. I mean it genuinely.

As for IS and Wahabis, they are not what the ordinary Pakistani follows. Nor the average Pakistani believes everything to their extreme. Yet they still killed the average joe in their tens of thousands.

 

[saeedhk]

Wow. I thought you were ignorant and misguided but it seems you have severe comprehension skills too as I already answered your question and admitted the community is targeted at times and wrote this above in my post. Since you're unable to read I will post it again:

'' The Hazara community are targeted regularly, the solution is to provide them protection. To increase security. To punish the scumbags who get away with it. And raise awareness among the population that such nonsense exists. If you, however, start screaming genocide when no statistics to support such a conclusion then good luck convincing the average joe when it comes to raising awareness.''

However from being targeted to genocide is a serious charge, if you have statistics to support it I am waiting to see them. Christians too in our nation are brutalised. However they are not victims of genocide. Black people in the US are also brutalised, however they are not victims of genocide.

The rest of your post was rubbish and not worth addressing as I have already addressed those points multiple times.

Now if you have statistics that the Shia community are being wiped out in Pakistan and are in danger of extinction like the Aborignals have been in the West or the Jews were in Europe then please present them so we can all admit its a genocide. I mean it genuinely.

As for IS and Wahabis, they are not what the ordinary Pakistani follows. Nor the average Pakistani believes everything to their extreme. Yet they still killed the average joe in their tens of thousands.

Have you ever lived in Pakistan? Do you know majority of our countrymen hold very extreme views about minorities and women? Do you know many Pakistanis believe blasphemers should be killed? Do you know Pakistan ranks number one in honor killings? Do you know every day, at least, three minority girls are forcibly converted to Islam? Do you now the most famous right now in Pakistan is, 'Gustakh ki aik saza, sar tun say juda, sur tun say juda.'

Do you know Pakistan's biggest hear preacher - Khadim Rizvi - had the biggest funeral in Pakistan's history?

 

[Pakpak]

Have you ever lived in Pakistan? Do you know majority of our countrymen hold very extreme views about minorities and women? Do you know many Pakistanis believe blasphemers should be killed? Do you know Pakistan ranks number one in honor killings? Do you know every day, at least, three minority girls are forcibly converted to Islam? Do you now the most famous right now in Pakistan is, 'Gustakh ki aik saza, sar tun say juda, sur tun say juda.'

Do you know Pakistan's biggest hear preacher - Khadim Rizvi - had the biggest funeral in Pakistan's history?

I have been born and raised in Pakistan.

You can say whatever you want, but I am still waiting to see statistics and numbers for proof of a genocide. Surely they can't be that hard to find?

 

[saeedhk]

I have been born and raised in Pakistan.

You can say whatever you want, but I am still waiting to see statistics and numbers for proof of a genocide. Surely they can't be that hard to find?

Already gave you the number and explained why it is a genocide. I was replying to your post in which you said Pakistanis do not hold extreme views.

 

[Pakpak]

Already gave you the number and explained why it is a genocide. I was replying to your post in which you said Pakistanis do not hold extreme views.

What are the numbers, just so everyone can see. So I am sure the numbers you're about to present will show that the Shia community is closed to being wiped out in Pakistan, I mean that's what genocide is.

Its a crime and a disgrace that even one person dies, never mind hundreds or thousands. However I see it as bigotry, a symptom of our society where murder is rampant. To move from that to a genocide you need proof. So let's see it.

 

[Giannis]

No, the word 'genocide' is overplayed and unfortunately people don't understand what it means. Are Shias under threat and unsafe? Yes, however that by itself doesn't qualify their suffering as a 'genocide'.

 

[Pakpak]

No, the word 'genocide' is overplayed and unfortunately people don't understand what it means. Are Shias under threat and unsafe? Yes, however that by itself doesn't qualify their suffering as a 'genocide'.

Which is my point. Noone here says Pakistan is a nation with rivers of honey and milk. Pretty much every reasonable person admits we have a serious problem when it comes to being abusive to our minorities. We can tackle that problem by admitting it exists and educating people. However that doesn't mean we are systemically murdering our minorities to the point that they longer exist, which is what genocide is. This accusation only started few months ago by some Indian twitter accounts to defame Pakistan. The EU disinfo reports show what the intent was.

 

[Pakpak]

[MENTION=134460]RickyG[/MENTION], not sure where my post went, but I meant I didn't mean to as hostile as I came. I don't think you're malicious, however to prove genocide we all need to see statistics and proof. We can all admit our minorities are treated badly, doubt people would deny it, but to go from that to a genocide is two different things.

 

[moghul]

What happened and has been happening with Hazara people in Baluchistan is extremely sad but that doesn't mean Shais are in any danger in other part the country.

Hope government will provide security of Hazara.

 

[Giannis]

What happened and has been happening with Hazara people in Baluchistan is extremely sad but that doesn't mean Shais are in any danger in other part the country.

Hope government will provide security of Hazara.

Shias have been targetted outside Balochistan, in fact more so however that alone doesn't meet the criteria of a genocide.

 

[RickyG]

[MENTION=134460]RickyG[/MENTION], not sure where my post went, but I meant I didn't mean to as hostile as I came. I don't think you're malicious, however to prove genocide we all need to see statistics and proof. We can all admit our minorities are treated badly, doubt people would deny it, but to go from that to a genocide is two different things.

No worries. I knew the moment the word genocide would be used it would be an issue and I said that in my very first post. Genocide is a big word.

I do think Shias could face a genocide if ever the army stopped bothering with caring about them. And they've faced grave grave dangers before. Although I am not Shia myself I do have extended family members that are Shia. They know neighbours murdered in their own homes. They know people who had to leave a neighbourhood or leave the country in the middle of the night. They know scholars and doctors that were killed.

This is why I absolutely despise anyone that deflects from the truth. And I didn't bother responding to the rest of your post because it was still a lot of "yes but....".

 

[Pakpak]

No worries. I knew the moment the word genocide would be used it would be an issue and I said that in my very first post. Genocide is a big word.

I do think Shias could face a genocide if ever the army stopped bothering with caring about them. And they've faced grave grave dangers before. Although I am not Shia myself I do have extended family members that are Shia. They know neighbours murdered in their own homes. They know people who had to leave a neighbourhood or leave the country in the middle of the night. They know scholars and doctors that were killed.

This is why I absolutely despise anyone that deflects from the truth. And I didn't bother responding to the rest of your post because it was still a lot of "yes but....".

I have had Shia friends through my time at University. So I'm sure all of us knew more people. My post was never 'yes but'. A 'yes but' is when someone is making justifications for murders. Which I think we both admit I didn't do. My point was simple we can all condemn the killings, I mean not s single person has supported them here, and any sane person knows how our minorities are treated. My point was simply that there is no genocide. numbers do prove bigotry and hatred by some, they don't prove a systemic wiping out genocide. Millions of German soldiers couldn't wipe out the Jews I'm not sure rag tag militant scumbags in our country can do the same to 20 million Shias. Because if they tried it the entire country would spit on them just like it woke up after the APC massacre (it should have woken up earlier)

 

[Greenstorm]

Do people really believe that more than 50 million Pakistanis are facing genocide ?
[MENTION=151956]Bigboii[/MENTION] you voted yes ?

 

[Pakpak]

Do people really believe that more than 50 million Pakistanis are facing genocide ?
[MENTION=151956]Bigboii[/MENTION] you voted yes ?

Saeedhk does, but fails to provide adequate stats. The only stats he provided implied 0.03% deaths of the total Shia population. Disgusting and pathetic the killings and the stat is, in no way its a genocide he accused the state and its population of doing.

 

[Bewal Express]

In the modern world and I suppose it was also true in the past, genocide can't be committed with the explicit permission and co-ordination of the state. In PK there has never been a policy under any govt to do this.

 

[MenInG]

Do people really believe that more than 50 million Pakistanis are facing genocide ?
[MENTION=151956]Bigboii[/MENTION] you voted yes ?

I would like to see some proof and not anecdotal evidence which seems to be thrown about without thought

 

[Gabbar Singh]

When politicians, whilst in opposition, talk about such genocide then it’s not surprising to see others following them.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ShiaGenocide?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ShiaGenocide</a> continues unabated in Pak - Parachinar death toll rising. Yet Govt unable/unwilling to act. Why?</p>— Shireen Mazari (@ShireenMazari1) <a href="https://twitter.com/ShireenMazari1/status/360884456267067393?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 26, 2013</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Tragic news from Quetta. Condemn Lashkar e jhangvi for its genocidal campaign against shias particularly Hazaras. Where is the state?</p>— Imran Khan (@ImranKhanPTI) <a href="https://twitter.com/ImranKhanPTI/status/289559175569235968?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 11, 2013</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[saeedhk]

When politicians, whilst in opposition, talk about such genocide then it’s not surprising to see others following them.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ShiaGenocide?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ShiaGenocide</a> continues unabated in Pak - Parachinar death toll rising. Yet Govt unable/unwilling to act. Why?</p>— Shireen Mazari (@ShireenMazari1) <a href="https://twitter.com/ShireenMazari1/status/360884456267067393?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 26, 2013</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Tragic news from Quetta. Condemn Lashkar e jhangvi for its genocidal campaign against shias particularly Hazaras. Where is the state?</p>— Imran Khan (@ImranKhanPTI) <a href="https://twitter.com/ImranKhanPTI/status/289559175569235968?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 11, 2013</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

But PTI supporters will turn a blind eye to this too like the video I posted where IK says the military backs anti-Shia militants.

 

[Bigboii]

Do people really believe that more than 50 million Pakistanis are facing genocide ?
[MENTION=151956]Bigboii[/MENTION] you voted yes ?

No they're not facing genocide

I believe they're facing the threat of genocide

Because in Pak society there is discrimination against shias on an individual level

For an actual genocide to take place this discrimination has to be translated into governmental policy which is not happening as of this moment

But in every society it starts from Individual discrimination than slowly reach government levels

From Rohingya, Rawanda, Germany in every genocide this happened

So my point is that threat of genocide exists merely because individual discrimination against a minority pop exist

Simple reasoning but I must say I am using the definition of threat of genocide very liberaly

And because of that lots of minority pop can be included in this definition like Muslims of India or shias of Saudi Arabia

 

[junoon]

What is it like being a Shia muslim in Pakistan?

What is it like being a Shia in Pakistan? I especially want to know the answer and opinions of shias on this forum. I am sunni myself and i don't think the sunnis in Pakistan are fully aware of the problems faced by the shia community.
The 2nd video is from 2013 so i am hoping things have now changed for the better?

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

On a day to day basis no issues whatsoever (unlike Ahmadis)

 

[junoon]

On a day to day basis no issues whatsoever (unlike Ahmadis)

True Ahmadis have been treated terribly in Pakistan. Their persecution is infact state-sanctioned and probably half the ahmadi population of Pakistan has left the country.

I have met some majorly religious sunni Pakistanis in Canada and US who constantly complain about racism and want the white majority to treat them fairly. The sad irony is that if you mention to them the persecution of minorities in Pakistan, then even educated people find ways to justify it.

 

[Giannis]

True Ahmadis have been treated terribly in Pakistan. Their persecution is infact state-sanctioned and probably half the ahmadi population of Pakistan has left the country.

I have met some majorly religious sunni Pakistanis in Canada and US who constantly complain about racism and want the white majority to treat them fairly. The sad irony is that if you mention to them the persecution of minorities in Pakistan, then even educated people find ways to justify it.

Half is an exaggeration. I'm pretty sure Rabwah, their holy city is like majority Ahmadi. It's only the people with means who leave, so most likely the upper class ones.