Are you patriotic?

[MenInG]

This is a question for all members, regardless of whichever country they belong to.

To some, patriotism is a disease, to others a natural state of affairs

Where do you stand?

Make sure you add your vote to the poll.

 

[Major]

When I was a child, very much soo. And when i was living abroad, the love probably grew more. But as I grew up, came bacl, learned the reality of the country and its people, I just dont care.

Love for nation, love for religion are just dumb concepts for me. It blinds people from the flaws in what they believe. For Pakistanis, its mostly about love for Islam, and for Indians its mostly about Indian Nationalism.

Just because one gets born in a country or in a religion, we are suppose to love it and defend it?

 

[Hitman]

Very much so. I'll love my country till my last breath. Another thing, I'll never leave my country permanently. Unfortunately, my brother did it. But I'm not going to.

 

[Major]

I also think patriotism differs between generations aswell. The older generation were part of the class that was involved in establishing the country (talking about Pakistan here), so they would naturally be more patriotic, but I wanna know whether the feeling has changed for them at this age?

 

[Saj]

What annoys me is blind patriotism.

Where people will not accept any sort of constructive criticism about their country, the politicians, the sportsmen etc.

 

[pillionrider]

It depends on how and who is defining patriotism.

Loving the land you live in or the land you ethnically originated from, is in my view still one of the last remaining noble virtues. I have personally thought a lot about this and tried to fight it and slice and dice it with logic. Because logically, it shouldn't make any sense. It is merely a convoluted remnant of tribalism. But I've given up and realized that it comes from a deeper place that is unknown to me and should just therefore be accepted. Which is why to me it is a noble virtue.

It can get hazy in a country like India where there are so many different cultures. To me, loving and being proud of your culture is patriotism - it doesn't matter if you're proud to be a Punjabi or a Kannadiga. They both reflect a pride in India.

The problem with patriotism today though is that it has gotten mixed with individuals and the government. Questioning the government is patriotism. Questioning and wanting cultural practices or aspects of your country to change, is patriotism of the highest value. Because it means you care enough to want to see the place you hold dearest, evolve.

 

[KB]

Perhaps we should think of patriotism as a more ambiguous and protean phenomenon. At its very simplest we might define it as love or loyalty to one’s homeland. But if we unpack this we can see various expressions of patriotism, defined in the wider sense. It may reflect a sense of attachment to a place, or to institutions, or to a community, or to customs. It can be an expression of affection for ‘blood ties’, for the ‘sacred soil’, or for certain civic ideals or particular ethical political doctrines or just simply a way of life.

Though we might in the contemporary world understand it as an attachment to the nation, historically it could manifest itself in forms of regional or local bonds. If we think of the tradition of Urdu shahr ashob poetry in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, it was a lament for the passing of a way of life associated with the elite culture of particular cities. The poets were certainly nostalgic but we could say that they represented a local patriotism - an attachment and loyalty to a city and the particular way of life in those cities which they saw as being inverted.

Finally, patriotism is not an uncritical celebration of all aspects of the homeland. Love/loyalty to one’s homeland does not preclude feelings of shame. Those feelings of shame might be channeled to learning from the bad moments in the past. Indeed, a rounded view of patriotism necessitates a critical outlook rather than blind allegiance.

 

[shaz619]

When I was a child, very much soo. And when i was living abroad, the love probably grew more. But as I grew up, came bacl, learned the reality of the country and its people, I just dont care.

Love for nation, love for religion are just dumb concepts for me. It blinds people from the flaws in what they believe. For Pakistanis, its mostly about love for Islam, and for Indians its mostly about Indian Nationalism.

Just because one gets born in a country or in a religion, we are suppose to love it and defend it?

Why do you have a problem with people who love their deen?

 

[jaspa888]

I was born in UK, though we used to go back to PK every couple of years when I was a kid. I fail the Tebbit Test as I support England in football, Pakistan in cricket, having spent tens of thousands of pounds following both teams around the world.

Ive always loved Pakistan, despite how selfish the people are, and what a basket case every Govt elected seemed to be (exception was Mushy's tenure in the mid-2000s). Ive had various businesses there since 2000, with an established and very successful tech hub since 2010. This has meant I travel there several times a year, sometimes for a month at a time.

Ive always considered Pakistan to have huge untapped potential, and harboured hopes that someone elected could one day unleash that. However, I spent last July there, and it broke my heart. For the first time, I left despondent. Its broken, and permanently so IMHO. We all know the reasons for this, so wont derail the thread.

My plan was to always retire in Pakistan, at least spending the winter month there. However, after what has happened in recent months, I am now reluctantly closing my businesses there, and selling all my land investments too. This is a tough decision, especially as someone who kept running operations even through years of sectarian riots, COVID, martial law, etc. Success is nothing without peace of mind. My kids have no affinity with Pakistan, and dont even speak the language. I have very little family over there. The links with Pakistan become weaker every year.

My long term plans will be to continue my businesses here in UK, and to operate charitable works - hopefully in Pakistan. But they will be fleeting visits, as I simply do not trust the business environment there. Very sad days.

 

[Major]

Why do you have a problem with people who love their deen?

because you are born in it, and are not allowed to question it. You only follow religion cause of your parents or the people surrounding made you to.

 

[shaz619]

because you are born in it, and are not allowed to question it. You only follow religion cause of your parents or the people surrounding made you to.

That doesn’t apply to everyone. Now more than ever before.

How does ones love for religion impact you personally, what would you prefer these people to be?

 

[Major]

That doesn’t apply to everyone. Now more than ever before.

How does ones love for religion impact you personally, what would you prefer these people to be?

it applies to 90% of the people because almost everyone is born in the religion they follow.

I dont really care what people do, I myself dont get myself blindly defending these things

 

[Rana]

I used to love Pakistan cricket until Misbah and his dirty politics happened

 

[Firebat]

I'm not patriotic, I feel more attached to religion and culture (which I would separate from pure patriotism). I feel those things define me and give me more in life than an attachment to any arbitrary set of borders.

 

[moghul]

I had great childhood and young adult life in Pakistan , hence I always been very patriotic and nationalist for the country of my birth. Even as an expat , I have done , whatever I could in my capacity for Pakistan. But I'm not patriotic for Pakistan any more .

First time in my life , Pakistan doesn't feel like a country or nation anymore , to me its a vast land with huge population occupied by an armed mafia and there is no hope it will be freed in my life time .

For me there is nothing to be proud of Pakistan . Its army, judiciary, journalists , politicians ( with the exception of Abu-Qasim ) and a large portion of the public are corrupt from the core. No one give a damn to the country and its future .

Don;t think country will survive for much longer , will disintegrate in couple of decades. The generals and politicians are well aware and well prepared for that with their huge bank balance and luxurious properties overseas.

It gives me a great sadness and depression seeing all this happening in front of my eyes.

 

[saeedhk]

From a very young age, the concept of patriotism disgusted me. Patriotism is a disease that makes you overlook the flaws, deficiencies and cruelties of your country or culture. It may make sense a bit for people from the first world to be patriotic because they have achieved much. However, how can somebody from a third-world country be patriotic when there are people dying from hunger, war, dirt water, accidents and terrorism?

 

[moghul]

I was born in UK, though we used to go back to PK every couple of years when I was a kid. I fail the Tebbit Test as I support England in football, Pakistan in cricket, having spent tens of thousands of pounds following both teams around the world.

Ive always loved Pakistan, despite how selfish the people are, and what a basket case every Govt elected seemed to be (exception was Mushy's tenure in the mid-2000s). Ive had various businesses there since 2000, with an established and very successful tech hub since 2010. This has meant I travel there several times a year, sometimes for a month at a time.

Ive always considered Pakistan to have huge untapped potential, and harboured hopes that someone elected could one day unleash that. However, I spent last July there, and it broke my heart. For the first time, I left despondent. Its broken, and permanently so IMHO. We all know the reasons for this, so wont derail the thread.

My plan was to always retire in Pakistan, at least spending the winter month there. However, after what has happened in recent months, I am now reluctantly closing my businesses there, and selling all my land investments too. This is a tough decision, especially as someone who kept running operations even through years of sectarian riots, COVID, martial law, etc. Success is nothing without peace of mind. My kids have no affinity with Pakistan, and dont even speak the language. I have very little family over there. The links with Pakistan become weaker every year.

My long term plans will be to continue my businesses here in UK, and to operate charitable works - hopefully in Pakistan. But they will be fleeting visits, as I simply do not trust the business environment there. Very sad days.

I'm also member of a larger group with multiple investment in Pakistan and with very encouraging results in IK's tenure , we were planning to have much bigger investment, not anymore, absolutely not . Trying to pull back and halt our business there. Every single $$ going to Pakistan will be helping the corrupt and fascist regime .

 

[Justcrazy]

Not at all

 

[Major]

I was born in UK, though we used to go back to PK every couple of years when I was a kid. I fail the Tebbit Test as I support England in football, Pakistan in cricket, having spent tens of thousands of pounds following both teams around the world.

Ive always loved Pakistan, despite how selfish the people are, and what a basket case every Govt elected seemed to be (exception was Mushy's tenure in the mid-2000s). Ive had various businesses there since 2000, with an established and very successful tech hub since 2010. This has meant I travel there several times a year, sometimes for a month at a time.

Ive always considered Pakistan to have huge untapped potential, and harboured hopes that someone elected could one day unleash that. However, I spent last July there, and it broke my heart. For the first time, I left despondent. Its broken, and permanently so IMHO. We all know the reasons for this, so wont derail the thread.

My plan was to always retire in Pakistan, at least spending the winter month there. However, after what has happened in recent months, I am now reluctantly closing my businesses there, and selling all my land investments too. This is a tough decision, especially as someone who kept running operations even through years of sectarian riots, COVID, martial law, etc. Success is nothing without peace of mind. My kids have no affinity with Pakistan, and dont even speak the language. I have very little family over there. The links with Pakistan become weaker every year.

My long term plans will be to continue my businesses here in UK, and to operate charitable works - hopefully in Pakistan. But they will be fleeting visits, as I simply do not trust the business environment there. Very sad days.

If you were outsourcing, is it fair to assume that you exploited the cheap labor part of pakistan?

 

[Major]

I'm also member of a larger group with multiple investment in Pakistan and with very encouraging results in IK's tenure , we were planning to have much bigger investment, not anymore, absolutely not . Trying to pull back and halt our business there. Every single $$ going to Pakistan will be helping the corrupt and fascist regime .

These businesses that are being referred, is it related to exploting the cheap labor and taking advantage of the lax labor laws of the country?

Because if so, that shows more of unpatriotic acts to satisfy selfish needs

 

[JaDed]

If you were outsourcing, is it fair to assume that you exploited the cheap labor part of pakistan?

Are you saying if an expat opens an IT consultancy but pays according to Indian standard of prices it’s exploiting?

Let me make a guess they should pay US prices? I’m a little confused here..

 

[moghul]

These businesses that are being referred, is it related to exploting the cheap labor and taking advantage of the lax labor laws of the country?

Because if so, that shows more of unpatriotic acts to satisfy selfish needs

What we did for Pakistan , other than our investment , was not to impress anyone or to gain any personal benefit , so not going in details of that .

 

[moghul]

If you were outsourcing, is it fair to assume that you exploited the cheap labor part of pakistan?

One of the main reason India has progress so much in last 2 decades is the "exploitation of cheap labor" by US and other western countries .

 

[psyoptica]

One of the main reason India has progress so much in last 2 decades is the "exploitation of cheap labor" by US and other western countries .

How is it exploitation of cheap labour if people are being paid decent salaries according to their country’s living standards? If anything, it greatly benefits the workers doing the jobs to work with foreigners and develop good communication skills.

 

[Major]

Are you saying if an expat opens an IT consultancy but pays according to Indian standard of prices it’s exploiting?

Let me make a guess they should pay US prices? I’m a little confused here..

offcourse its exploiting. Especially if they are outsourcing that job, because the revenue being made is enough to fund the owners lifestyle back home in USA

 

[Major]

What we did for Pakistan , other than our investment , was not to impress anyone or to gain any personal benefit , so not going in details of that .

Question is did you exploited the Pakistanis for your own benefit?

Forget about WE DID. Everyone thinks they are doing some ehsaan when infact you are just exploiting. Its like those diamond miners that give a few hundreds in local currency thinking they are helping the folks.

Atleast have the gal to admit you knew a loophole in the system and tried to under pay

 

[MenInG]

For reference: (from Wiki)

Patriotism is the feeling of love, devotion, and sense of attachment to one's country. This attachment can be a combination of many different feelings, language relating to one's own homeland, including ethnic, cultural, political or historical aspects. It encompasses a set of concepts closely related to nationalism, mostly civic nationalism and sometimes cultural nationalism.[1][2][3]

Some manifestations of patriotism emphasize the "land" element in love for one's native land and use the symbolism of agriculture and the soil[4][5] – compare Blut und Boden.

 

[Major]

One of the main reason India has progress so much in last 2 decades is the "exploitation of cheap labor" by US and other western countries .

Umm, nope.

There are two things to this,
Call centers did not lead to progress in India.
Second, I have been researching on remote job websites, and majority of these remote job websites are giving jobs in India (not a single one mentioned Pakistan) and are paying very good enough amount.

India did not progress through exploitation, they progressed because of their education system than there overseas working hard enough to become decision makers in their companies that could bring jobs back to India


Its funny how many are exploiting Pakistani's under the disguise of patriotism

 

[jaspa888]

If you were outsourcing, is it fair to assume that you exploited the cheap labor part of pakistan?

Not at all. We were paying top salaries to our PK guys, the reason being two-fold. Firstly, we wanted the best (UK standard, as our customer base is in the UK), and you have to pay accordingly to attract the best talent. Secondly, I need continuity - especially in developers - so you have to pay through the nose to lock them into your business.

We treated our UK and PK employees the same as they worked so closely together. None of this usual "yes sir" mentality. On closure, we will be paying the PK guys huge bonuses in GBP as a thank you.

Im not making myself out as some altruistic philanthropist with a saviour complex; simply pointing out how bad business conditions are for foreign investors, and how the capital flight will impact PK if others feel the same as I do. As I said, its a heartbreaking decision as I love the country itself, but it is no longer the PK I knew.

 

[Major]

Not at all. We were paying top salaries to our PK guys, the reason being two-fold. Firstly, we wanted the best (UK standard, as our customer base is in the UK), and you have to pay accordingly to attract the best talent. Secondly, I need continuity - especially in developers - so you have to pay through the nose to lock them into your business.

We treated our UK and PK employees the same as they worked so closely together. None of this usual "yes sir" mentality. On closure, we will be paying the PK guys huge bonuses in GBP as a thank you.

Im not making myself out as some altruistic philanthropist with a saviour complex; simply pointing out how bad business conditions are for foreign investors, and how the capital flight will impact PK if others feel the same as I do. As I said, its a heartbreaking decision as I love the country itself, but it is no longer the PK I knew.

Than you are truly patriotic towards the country.

Alot of business owners that I have seen from UK and USA that are outsourcing to Pakistan they are trying to low ball them alot. Only a few pay according to the market where the business is located

 

[shaz619]

it applies to 90% of the people because almost everyone is born in the religion they follow.

I dont really care what people do, I myself dont get myself blindly defending these things

Who’s to say they all blindly follow something, to go against a certain aspect just for the sake of it, is no different. What exactly is being defended which you choose not to blindly defend?

If one is someone who stands on the fence on things like faith especially, they lack a spine and sincerity. In that instance folk may as well speak their true beliefs rather than pick and choose aspects of something they can’t get behind completely

 

[sweep_shot]

I used to be a hardcore patriot/nationalist. But, that has changed. As I grew older, I realized that patriotism/nationalism was pointless. When you die, it really doesn't matter whether you were an Indian or an African.

I now care about my own interests. I care about helping people and doing good things. Allegiance to a flag doesn't matter.

 

[JaDed]

For reference: (from Wiki)

Patriotism is the feeling of love, devotion, and sense of attachment to one's country. This attachment can be a combination of many different feelings, language relating to one's own homeland, including ethnic, cultural, political or historical aspects. It encompasses a set of concepts closely related to nationalism, mostly civic nationalism and sometimes cultural nationalism.[1][2][3]

Some manifestations of patriotism emphasize the "land" element in love for one's native land and use the symbolism of agriculture and the soil[4][5] – compare Blut und Boden.

Based on this definition , I’m certain all of us are patriotic upto a good extent.

I think people are getting confused with nationalism.

 

[sweep_shot]

Based on this definition , I’m certain all of us are patriotic upto a good extent.

I think people are getting confused with nationalism.

Patriotism generally leads to nationalism.

I think most patriots are nationalists.

 

[Champ_Pal]

People who do not have love for their country are usually far left liberals.

 

[sweep_shot]

People who do not have love for their country are usually far left liberals.

I am complete opposite of far-left as evident from my past posts. But, I think patriotism/nationalism is a massive waste of time. Most people care about own interests.

Only identities I care about are my Muslim identity and human identity. National identities are for paperwork purposes only.

 

[Champ_Pal]

I am complete opposite of far-left as evident from my past posts. But, I think patriotism/nationalism is a massive waste of time. Most people care about own interests.

Only identities I care about are my Muslim identity and human identity. National identities are for paperwork purposes only.

Will you fight for Canada or a Muslim country if a war breaks out?

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

People who do not have love for their country are usually far left liberals.

People on the ‘far left’ are not actually liberals. And most liberals would lean towards right on more issues than they would lean towards left. I don’t get why some people are so stupid about getting the spectrum right.

 

[JaDed]

Patriotism generally leads to nationalism.

I think most patriots are nationalists.

Thats like saying people who follow religion are fundamentalists.

 

[JaDed]

I am complete opposite of far-left as evident from my past posts. But, I think patriotism/nationalism is a massive waste of time. Most people care about own interests.

Only identities I care about are my Muslim identity and human identity. National identities are for paperwork purposes only.

Do you hate your country? Left Liberals usually do hate their country.
I think they hate everything, atleast you like you religion, I’m sure they hate that too.

 

[sweep_shot]

Do you hate your country? Left Liberals usually do hate their country.
I think they hate everything, atleast you like you religion, I’m sure they hate that too.

As citizens of both Bangladesh and Canada, I do not hate either country. But, I am also not emotionally attached to either country. I do not celebrate any Bengali event just like I do not celebrate any Canadian event. These events do not mean anything to me on a personal level.

Answer me this. When you die, does it matter which nationality you are? It doesn't. Why would I care about something that is temporary in nature?

 

[JaDed]

As citizens of both Bangladesh and Canada, I do not hate either country. But, I am also not emotionally attached to either country. I do not celebrate any Bengali event just like I do not celebrate any Canadian event. These events do not mean anything to me on a personal level.

Answer me this. When you die, does it matter which nationality you are? It doesn't. Why would I care about something that is temporary in nature?

When I die nothing matters at all, to you if im not wrong religion and belief in after life matter, they don’t as such to me coz i don’t have same faith/belief as you.

Patriotism and faith are very personal.

 

[KingKhanWC]

No, unless Im supporting England in football or Pakistan in cricket.

Nations are man made, the borders are changed over time.

However I do love British culture and esp mixed with Asian/Pakistani culture.

 

[wasim-fan]

Patriotism, nationalism and religion. Three major elements that are mete coincidence of birth. I wouldn't consider them important or relevant. Unless one has consciously chosen them as an adult.

 

[SalimBhai]

Thin line between patriotism and nationalism . I am fine with patriotism to a certain level . Nationalism and religion are dangerous in my opinion

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This is a strange one for me, I am not really patriotic. It's more about culture than land, so I can feel proud of many aspects of British culture, and I can also feel proud of many aspects of Pakistani culture. How do you translate that into patriotism?

 

[James]

Not so much patriotic, more so invested. I take an active interest in the culture, affairs and history of England / Britain / the UK, and will recognise the good points as well as critiquing the bad parts. When it comes to the matter of one’s country, there are hardcore nationalists and also self hating liberals, both of whom I’d disagree with and find their position difficult to understand.

 

[sweep_shot]

If I am not wrong, nationalism is discouraged in Islam. Here's one hadith that talks about tribalism (a form of nationalism):

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said, "Whoever parts from obedience, and splits away from the Jama'ah and dies, then he has died a death of Jahiliyyah. Whoever rebels against my Ummah, killing good and evil people alike, and does not try to avoid killing the believers, and does not pay attention to those who are under a covenant, then he is not of me. Whoever fights for a cause that is not clear, advocating tribalism, getting angry for the sake of tribalism, and he is killed, then he has died a death of Jahiliyyah."

Reference: https://sunnah.com/nasai:4114.

Therefore, I reject nationalism completely. I am okay with patriotism as a concept but I do not identify as a patriot.

For me, my Muslim identity and human identity are the most important identities. I also care about planet Earth and environment (however, I am not a climate change nutcase).

 

[JattMaula]

Patriotism is a drug to take in moderation. I frequently cleans myself so it doesn't become nationalism.

 

[wasim-fan]

If I am not wrong, nationalism is discouraged in Islam. Here's one hadith that talks about tribalism (a form of nationalism):

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said, "Whoever parts from obedience, and splits away from the Jama'ah and dies, then he has died a death of Jahiliyyah. Whoever rebels against my Ummah, killing good and evil people alike, and does not try to avoid killing the believers, and does not pay attention to those who are under a covenant, then he is not of me. Whoever fights for a cause that is not clear, advocating tribalism, getting angry for the sake of tribalism, and he is killed, then he has died a death of Jahiliyyah."

Reference: https://sunnah.com/nasai:4114.

Therefore, I reject nationalism completely. I am okay with patriotism as a concept but I do not identify as a patriot.

For me, my Muslim identity and human identity are the most important identities. I also care about planet Earth and environment (however, I am not a climate change nutcase).

Doesn't this undermine the theory behind creation of Pakistan ?

 

[sweep_shot]

Doesn't this undermine the theory behind creation of Pakistan ?

Pakistan is an Islamic Republic and they got separated from polytheistic India. I think creation of Pakistan was necessary.

But, I think what needs to happen is all Muslim-majority states joining together and forming one Islamic super-state. I would support that.

 

[Mockingbird]

Pakistan is an Islamic Republic and they got separated from polytheistic India. I think creation of Pakistan was necessary.

But, I think what needs to happen is all Muslim-majority states joining together and forming one Islamic super-state. I would support that.

You honestly think all Muslims can come together? Muslims must be one of the most divided groups ever - Shia-Sunni, Arab-non Arab, moneyed -non-moneyed divides run deep. The Palestine, Kashmir, Rohingya and Uyghur issues have shown that there is no unity among the Muslims, economic interests trumps religion.