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Atif Mian blames incompetence of previous govts, fake development for current situation in Pakistan

Mian

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="ur" dir="rtl">۱/ پاکستان میں دائمی ترقی صرف اسی وقت ممکن ہے جب ہم غیروں پر انحصار کی بجاۓ خود اپنے زور بازو سے اپنی پیداواری صلاحیت بڑہائیں گے۔<br><br>ماضی میں تمام حکومتیں غیروں کے پیچھے بھاگتی رہیں، کہ کوئی کچھ دے دے، تا کہ عوام کو وقتی اور مصنوعی ترقی دکھا کر سیاسی دکان چمکائی جائے۔ <a href="https://t.co/yfZtfDqNgL">https://t.co/yfZtfDqNgL</a></p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1154355058932195330?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 25, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="ur" dir="rtl">۳/ سرمایہ کاری بیرونی قرضوں سے نہیں بلکہ ملکی وسائل سے پیدا کریں۔ تعلیم اور ہنر کے فروغ سے اپنے لوگوں کی صلاحیت بڑہائیں۔ حکومتی اداروں کو فعال بنائیں۔ سیاسی چمچوں کی بجائے با اہل لوگوں کو کلیدی اداروں پر مقرر کریں۔ ملا کی بجائے، صرف خدا سے ڈریں۔</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1154355080159567872?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 25, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

In short Atif Mian is explaining that the current situation is due to the incompetence of previous governments, they showed no interest in increasing exports and depended on loans alone to show fake development just to win next elections and their projects had no long term impacts so in the end we are left with massive debt and not much development.
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] i know you quote and follow Atif Mian's analysis on economy so i guess you agree with him here too
 


an intelligent mind lost due to the actions of paindu Noon league
 
Mamoon 9,000 probably will never show up on this thread.

or you will get a lengthy essay blaming only Army, overseas Pakistani and every Pakistani who do not praise Maryum.
 
Mamoon 9,000 probably will never show up on this thread.

or you will get a lengthy essay blaming only Army, overseas Pakistani and every Pakistani who do not praise Maryum.

Dr Mamoon is a bigger economist than Atif Mian!
 
I hope we restructure our economic model soon. The more we delay, the harder it'll get. As Atif Mian said, even gathering the recommended revenue would be a monumental task.
 
Correct analysis by Atif Mian. Wish we could have Atif Mians instead of Hafiz Shaikhs but unfortunately PTI, like PMLN gave into religious extremists.
 
Correct analysis by Atif Mian. Wish we could have Atif Mians instead of Hafiz Shaikhs but unfortunately PTI, like PMLN gave into religious extremists.

In his case, PML-N led the charge to oppose his selection....
 
Atif Mian genuinely wants the best for Pakistan despite the hate he recieves for his faith.
 
A shame he couldn’t help Pakistan’s economy.

I believe had he been in the office with Asad Umar, our economy would be in a lil bit better state and the PKR would not have devalued.

But it is what it is.

Nobody can change the religious mindset of some...

Who are we to criticize someone’s religion?

We lost a great mind.
 
Some very good points.

Noon League and PPP kept borrowing money and did not invest the money in the sectors that developed people and / or exports. The growth rate that Maryam bibi keeps going on about, was totally artificial. Then on top of that, they left the new government (PTI) in a crisis situation by leaving the country with 2 weeks of foreign reserves.

PTI also made a mistake of not going to IMF earlier, when it was inevitable.

Another mistake in their policy as atif pointed out, wanting to pursue a housing growth policy.

However, credit has to be given to PTI. They are trying to do this the right way. They are trying to increase the tax net, even though they know that people will turn against them and they may lose a significant portion of their voter base.

PMLN did the country a disservice with their smoke show growth rate. In reality they left the economy in a mess. Cant believe people think PMLN are corrupt but competent. They are both corrupt and incompetent.
 
Atif Mian is an absolute genius of an economist and Ivy League professor who got the short end of the stick due to dirty politics of PML-N and other corrupt troublemakers who destroyed Pakistan for their own greed and selfishness. IK and his inner circle should have not given into external pressures from an educated lowlifes and insisted on giving him a cabinet position.

Atif Mian is spot on re China’s highly successful economic policies and how Pakistan has all the resources to be debt-free and evolve into a very successful economic powerhouse without loans from external sources like the IMF and the USA. is saying
 
He is absolutely right. It was the incompetence of the previous parties and not the corruption. Thanks to Imran Khan and his cult, the Pakistani public have focused on the wrong issues.

They have been deluded into thinking that by eliminating corruption, our problems will solve magically. What they don’t realize is that as long you don’t develop competencies, honesty is useless.

For example, someone like Fawad Chaudhry will achieve nothing as Minister of Science & Technology even if he doesn’t do a rupee of corruption, simply because he has no competency for this role.

Apart from Fawad Chaudhry, Imran’s lack of focus on the real problems are reflected in the finance ministry. He hyped Asad Umar as an economic genius who would solve Pakistan’s economic woes, but he turned out to be a complete disaster who was running an already shattered economy to the ground.

He was so awful that Imran had to swallow his pride and sack him within 8 months. Furthermore, his solution to make things right was the genius decision of appointing a former PPP Finance Minister, whose policies Imran criticizes previously.

Cult members defend his appointment by stating that although he flopped under Zardari, he did a good job under the leadership of the great commando Mush. Again, considering the delicate situation of Pakistan economy, is taking a risk on someone with a 50-50 record worth it?

Instead of talking about corruption 24/7 for years and years, Imran should have focused on discussing the policies of the previous governments and why they didn’t work.

However, his entire focus has been on corruption and that is why our public is ignorant and have been brainwashed into thinking that corruption is the sole reason why we are in this mess.

Moreover, I will give example of India again. It is a heavily corrupt country, but they have achieved economic growth and industrial development because they have focused on building competencies. It is a example of how incompetence is a bigger hurdle for economic growth than corruption.

Corruption can and should be minimized but it cannot be eliminated. However, if you build competencies and appoint the right people for the right job, you will override the negative impact of corruption.

As long as talk of corruption and terms like chor, daku, loot-mar etc. are dominating our discussions, we will not make any significant progress.
 
He is absolutely right. It was the incompetence of the previous parties and not the corruption. Thanks to Imran Khan and his cult, the Pakistani public have focused on the wrong issues.

They have been deluded into thinking that by eliminating corruption, our problems will solve magically. What they don’t realize is that as long you don’t develop competencies, honesty is useless.

For example, someone like Fawad Chaudhry will achieve nothing as Minister of Science & Technology even if he doesn’t do a rupee of corruption, simply because he has no competency for this role.

Apart from Fawad Chaudhry, Imran’s lack of focus on the real problems are reflected in the finance ministry. He hyped Asad Umar as an economic genius who would solve Pakistan’s economic woes, but he turned out to be a complete disaster who was running an already shattered economy to the ground.

He was so awful that Imran had to swallow his pride and sack him within 8 months. Furthermore, his solution to make things right was the genius decision of appointing a former PPP Finance Minister, whose policies Imran criticizes previously.

Cult members defend his appointment by stating that although he flopped under Zardari, he did a good job under the leadership of the great commando Mush. Again, considering the delicate situation of Pakistan economy, is taking a risk on someone with a 50-50 record worth it?

Instead of talking about corruption 24/7 for years and years, Imran should have focused on discussing the policies of the previous governments and why they didn’t work.

However, his entire focus has been on corruption and that is why our public is ignorant and have been brainwashed into thinking that corruption is the sole reason why we are in this mess.

Moreover, I will give example of India again. It is a heavily corrupt country, but they have achieved economic growth and industrial development because they have focused on building competencies. It is a example of how incompetence is a bigger hurdle for economic growth than corruption.

Corruption can and should be minimized but it cannot be eliminated. However, if you build competencies and appoint the right people for the right job, you will override the negative impact of corruption.

As long as talk of corruption and terms like chor, daku, loot-mar etc. are dominating our discussions, we will not make any significant progress.

As usual, a misinformed and a thoughtless comment. Please read Daron Acemoglu’s seminal work on institutional quality and economic growth. I’m sure if you probe Atif Mian further, he will agree with Acemoglu.

As I have said previously, economics doesn’t lend itself to a casual opinion. You continue to come across as someone who has zero grasp of economics.
 
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He is absolutely right. It was the incompetence of the previous parties and not the corruption. Thanks to Imran Khan and his cult, the Pakistani public have focused on the wrong issues.

They have been deluded into thinking that by eliminating corruption, our problems will solve magically. What they don’t realize is that as long you don’t develop competencies, honesty is useless.

For example, someone like Fawad Chaudhry will achieve nothing as Minister of Science & Technology even if he doesn’t do a rupee of corruption, simply because he has no competency for this role.

Apart from Fawad Chaudhry, Imran’s lack of focus on the real problems are reflected in the finance ministry. He hyped Asad Umar as an economic genius who would solve Pakistan’s economic woes, but he turned out to be a complete disaster who was running an already shattered economy to the ground.

He was so awful that Imran had to swallow his pride and sack him within 8 months. Furthermore, his solution to make things right was the genius decision of appointing a former PPP Finance Minister, whose policies Imran criticizes previously.

Cult members defend his appointment by stating that although he flopped under Zardari, he did a good job under the leadership of the great commando Mush. Again, considering the delicate situation of Pakistan economy, is taking a risk on someone with a 50-50 record worth it?

Instead of talking about corruption 24/7 for years and years, Imran should have focused on discussing the policies of the previous governments and why they didn’t work.

However, his entire focus has been on corruption and that is why our public is ignorant and have been brainwashed into thinking that corruption is the sole reason why we are in this mess.

Moreover, I will give example of India again. It is a heavily corrupt country, but they have achieved economic growth and industrial development because they have focused on building competencies. It is a example of how incompetence is a bigger hurdle for economic growth than corruption.

Corruption can and should be minimized but it cannot be eliminated. However, if you build competencies and appoint the right people for the right job, you will override the negative impact of corruption.

As long as talk of corruption and terms like chor, daku, loot-mar etc. are dominating our discussions, we will not make any significant progress.

Your eloquence cannot mask your immaturity and hypocrisy. You admit that the PMLN government was incompetent and yet you continue supporting them and want them back in power?

What Imran is doing is not about eliminating corruption altogether, it is about curbing corruption at the highest levels. Societal and institutional change is always a top down process. Curbing corruption at the top will have a profound effect at all levels as it shows that no one is above the law.

I really don't know how competencies can be built without a culture of honesty and meritocracy. You talk about right people for the right job and then declare honesty to be overrated. Even if you equip your youth with competencies and skills will be they be able to secure a future for themselves in a corrupt and nepotistic society like ours? Without a culture of honesty we will continue having Maryams and their daddies appropriating the rights of the more deserving. Without a culture of honesty we can not expect the lowest classes to have a chance of making a future for themselves (the main problem with our society).

So we should hold India as our ideal? If India is corrupt why should we aspire to be like them? Why can't we aspire to be better than them? Why should we not look at countries who have not only achieved economic success but done so without sacrificing values like honesty.
 
As usual, a misinformed and a thoughtless comment. Please read Daron Acemoglu’s seminal work on institutional quality and economic growth. I’m sure if you probe Atif Mian further, he will agree with Acemoglu.

As I have said previously, economics doesn’t lend itself to a casual opinion. You continue to come across as someone who has zero grasp of economics.

Oh but he does! He knows IK appointed Asad and Asad was useless and then IK appointed Hafeez Sheikh and Hafe.......................... (read the rest of it from his previous post or any other on economics). Such trenchant analysis and you question his knowledge of economics!

Institutions? Who cares about them as long as you build competencies - competencies in corruption, dishonesty, nepotism. Who cares if so many countries progressed by building their institutions and by promoting honesty and merit. We will be fine as long as we do what India is doing or let the overlords from Jati Umra and Garhi Khuda Bakhsh hold the reins of our future.
 
He is absolutely right. It was the incompetence of the previous parties and not the corruption. Thanks to Imran Khan and his cult, the Pakistani public have focused on the wrong issues.

They have been deluded into thinking that by eliminating corruption, our problems will solve magically. What they don’t realize is that as long you don’t develop competencies, honesty is useless.

For example, someone like Fawad Chaudhry will achieve nothing as Minister of Science & Technology even if he doesn’t do a rupee of corruption, simply because he has no competency for this role.

Apart from Fawad Chaudhry, Imran’s lack of focus on the real problems are reflected in the finance ministry. He hyped Asad Umar as an economic genius who would solve Pakistan’s economic woes, but he turned out to be a complete disaster who was running an already shattered economy to the ground.

He was so awful that Imran had to swallow his pride and sack him within 8 months. Furthermore, his solution to make things right was the genius decision of appointing a former PPP Finance Minister, whose policies Imran criticizes previously.

Cult members defend his appointment by stating that although he flopped under Zardari, he did a good job under the leadership of the great commando Mush. Again, considering the delicate situation of Pakistan economy, is taking a risk on someone with a 50-50 record worth it?

Instead of talking about corruption 24/7 for years and years, Imran should have focused on discussing the policies of the previous governments and why they didn’t work.

However, his entire focus has been on corruption and that is why our public is ignorant and have been brainwashed into thinking that corruption is the sole reason why we are in this mess.

Moreover, I will give example of India again. It is a heavily corrupt country, but they have achieved economic growth and industrial development because they have focused on building competencies. It is a example of how incompetence is a bigger hurdle for economic growth than corruption.

Corruption can and should be minimized but it cannot be eliminated. However, if you build competencies and appoint the right people for the right job, you will override the negative impact of corruption.

As long as talk of corruption and terms like chor, daku, loot-mar etc. are dominating our discussions, we will not make any significant progress.

When Atif Mian argued that Incompetence is as bad as corruption, Mamoon jumped up and down and said look Nawaz and Zarari are corrupt but incompetence is more dangerous (admitting he supports corrupt).

Now that Atif is saying previous governments were incompetent as well, he is saying look he didnt say economy suffers due to corruption but only incompetence :)) :))

FACT: Previous governments were CORRUPT AND INCOMPETENT.

By the way, Atif in same interview said "Of course corruption plays major role in destruction of economy, there is NO QUESTION ABOUT IT".

So not sure what is Mamoon's argument now :)
 
He is absolutely right. It was the incompetence of the previous parties and not the corruption. Thanks to Imran Khan and his cult, the Pakistani public have focused on the wrong issues.

They have been deluded into thinking that by eliminating corruption, our problems will solve magically. What they don’t realize is that as long you don’t develop competencies, honesty is useless.

For example, someone like Fawad Chaudhry will achieve nothing as Minister of Science & Technology even if he doesn’t do a rupee of corruption, simply because he has no competency for this role.

Apart from Fawad Chaudhry, Imran’s lack of focus on the real problems are reflected in the finance ministry. He hyped Asad Umar as an economic genius who would solve Pakistan’s economic woes, but he turned out to be a complete disaster who was running an already shattered economy to the ground.

He was so awful that Imran had to swallow his pride and sack him within 8 months. Furthermore, his solution to make things right was the genius decision of appointing a former PPP Finance Minister, whose policies Imran criticizes previously.

Cult members defend his appointment by stating that although he flopped under Zardari, he did a good job under the leadership of the great commando Mush. Again, considering the delicate situation of Pakistan economy, is taking a risk on someone with a 50-50 record worth it?

Instead of talking about corruption 24/7 for years and years, Imran should have focused on discussing the policies of the previous governments and why they didn’t work.

However, his entire focus has been on corruption and that is why our public is ignorant and have been brainwashed into thinking that corruption is the sole reason why we are in this mess.

Moreover, I will give example of India again. It is a heavily corrupt country, but they have achieved economic growth and industrial development because they have focused on building competencies. It is a example of how incompetence is a bigger hurdle for economic growth than corruption.

Corruption can and should be minimized but it cannot be eliminated. However, if you build competencies and appoint the right people for the right job, you will override the negative impact of corruption.

As long as talk of corruption and terms like chor, daku, loot-mar etc. are dominating our discussions, we will not make any significant progress.

So according to Atif Miam, PPP and certainly PML-N are both corrupt and incompetent so fail your standards big time
 
When Atif Mian argued that Incompetence is as bad as corruption, Mamoon jumped up and down and said look Nawaz and Zarari are corrupt but incompetence is more dangerous (admitting he supports corrupt).

Now that Atif is saying previous governments were incompetent as well, he is saying look he didnt say economy suffers due to corruption but only incompetence :)) :))

FACT: Previous governments were CORRUPT AND INCOMPETENT.

By the way, Atif in same interview said "Of course corruption plays major role in destruction of economy, there is NO QUESTION ABOUT IT".

So not sure what is Mamoon's argument now :)

To be fair Atif did stress more on structural defects and relegated corruption to a secondary problem. I do agree on the fact that even after the accountability drive ends our economy would still be suffering in the hands of broken policies.

I do think we should rather focus on restructuring our policies from the ground up first and then go after the crooks, their corruption scandals are going nowhere. Our main objective right now should be driving up exports and growing local business.
 
When Atif Mian argued that Incompetence is as bad as corruption, Mamoon jumped up and down and said look Nawaz and Zarari are corrupt but incompetence is more dangerous (admitting he supports corrupt).

Now that Atif is saying previous governments were incompetent as well, he is saying look he didnt say economy suffers due to corruption but only incompetence :)) :))

FACT: Previous governments were CORRUPT AND INCOMPETENT.

By the way, Atif in same interview said "Of course corruption plays major role in destruction of economy, there is NO QUESTION ABOUT IT".

So not sure what is Mamoon's argument now :)
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] is like Lord Lucan - he just disappears when his lies are caught out.
 
To be fair Atif did stress more on structural defects and relegated corruption to a secondary problem. I do agree on the fact that even after the accountability drive ends our economy would still be suffering in the hands of broken policies.

I do think we should rather focus on restructuring our policies from the ground up first and then go after the crooks, their corruption scandals are going nowhere. Our main objective right now should be driving up exports and growing local business.

Agreed and i posted his exact quote "Of course corruption plays major role in destruction of economy, there is NO QUESTION ABOUT IT". Point is that previous governments were both corrupt and incompetent so Mamoon will need to come up with new excuses now.
 
Agreed and i posted his exact quote "Of course corruption plays major role in destruction of economy, there is NO QUESTION ABOUT IT". Point is that previous governments were both corrupt and incompetent so Mamoon will need to come up with new excuses now.

No doubt about that, just read what World Bank reported on their tenure.
 
No doubt about that, just read what World Bank reported on their tenure.

I am actually bit concerned about PM's housing project because Atif raised some important issues. I agree that a lot of building material will need to be imported which kind of goes against policy of reducing imports to reduce the deficit. Not sure how the govt is trying to tackle that issue because it will be counter productive, Atif said that similar housing project miserably failed in Brazil (if i remember correctly).
 
I am actually bit concerned about PM's housing project because Atif raised some important issues. I agree that a lot of building material will need to be imported which kind of goes against policy of reducing imports to reduce the deficit. Not sure how the govt is trying to tackle that issue because it will be counter productive, Atif said that similar housing project miserably failed in Brazil (if i remember correctly).

The housing project has had me confused from the start, maybe it was meant for increased employment since such a massive project will need a lot of manpower? However, the burden of imports cannot justify such a move. Even with the trade deficit decreasing, the worrisome aspect is the lack of an increase in exports, which makes this project even more confusing.

Personally, I hope it's delayed and done at an appropriate time. But it was a major campaign promise, which might be why they're going forward with it.
 
[MENTION=133397]WebGuru[/MENTION] [MENTION=135]Waseem[/MENTION] its only 2nd time in pp history that I ignored long essay by mamoon...
 
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He is absolutely right. It was the incompetence of the previous parties and not the corruption. Thanks to Imran Khan and his cult, the Pakistani public have focused on the wrong issues.

They have been deluded into thinking that by eliminating corruption, our problems will solve magically. What they don’t realize is that as long you don’t develop competencies, honesty is useless.

For example, someone like Fawad Chaudhry will achieve nothing as Minister of Science & Technology even if he doesn’t do a rupee of corruption, simply because he has no competency for this role.

Apart from Fawad Chaudhry, Imran’s lack of focus on the real problems are reflected in the finance ministry. He hyped Asad Umar as an economic genius who would solve Pakistan’s economic woes, but he turned out to be a complete disaster who was running an already shattered economy to the ground.

He was so awful that Imran had to swallow his pride and sack him within 8 months. Furthermore, his solution to make things right was the genius decision of appointing a former PPP Finance Minister, whose policies Imran criticizes previously.

Cult members defend his appointment by stating that although he flopped under Zardari, he did a good job under the leadership of the great commando Mush. Again, considering the delicate situation of Pakistan economy, is taking a risk on someone with a 50-50 record worth it?

Instead of talking about corruption 24/7 for years and years, Imran should have focused on discussing the policies of the previous governments and why they didn’t work.

However, his entire focus has been on corruption and that is why our public is ignorant and have been brainwashed into thinking that corruption is the sole reason why we are in this mess.

Moreover, I will give example of India again. It is a heavily corrupt country, but they have achieved economic growth and industrial development because they have focused on building competencies. It is a example of how incompetence is a bigger hurdle for economic growth than corruption.

Corruption can and should be minimized but it cannot be eliminated. However, if you build competencies and appoint the right people for the right job, you will override the negative impact of corruption.

As long as talk of corruption and terms like chor, daku, loot-mar etc. are dominating our discussions, we will not make any significant progress.

Mamoon 9,000, I didn’t read (probably close to 900 words) word salad trying to appear different.

Now could you provide an evidence of 9,000 attendees? Thank you!
 
[MENTION=133397]WebGuru[/MENTION] [MENTION=135]Waseem[/MENTION] its only 2nd time in pp history that I ignored long essay by mamoon...

Unfortunately Mamoon's constant flip flops haven't helped his reputation and i stopped reading his essays long time ago. Yes he has tough job at hands defending known crooks but that's what he has CHOSEN to do so can't blame others. Mamoon usually loves the attention not only in politics but cricket as well, goes against the majority to grab attention :)
 
When Atif Mian argued that Incompetence is as bad as corruption, Mamoon jumped up and down and said look Nawaz and Zarari are corrupt but incompetence is more dangerous (admitting he supports corrupt).

Now that Atif is saying previous governments were incompetent as well, he is saying look he didnt say economy suffers due to corruption but only incompetence :)) :))

FACT: Previous governments were CORRUPT AND INCOMPETENT.

By the way, Atif in same interview said "Of course corruption plays major role in destruction of economy, there is NO QUESTION ABOUT IT".

So not sure what is Mamoon's argument now :)

He didn't claim that. He made it very clear that in his opinion, incompetence is a bigger constraint than corruption, and even a corrupt system can deliver if it is competent.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ger-constraint-than-corruption-quot-Atif-Mian

Also, I made it very clear in that thread (and also this one) that Pakistan is in a mess because of the incompetence of previous governments. As a result, we need to focus on their wrong policies rather than their corruption, because it is the former that has hampered our economy.

You chose to ignore my essay in this thread but I hope you can read these three lines. In fact, I will quote a part of my post from the other thread that I posted.

"This of course is not to say that PMLN and PPP governments were competent. Of course they were not, but it is very critical to understand that their failures were down to their incompetence and not their corruption.

We need to focus on what they did wrong in terms of policies and decisions rather than how much money they stole, because if they were competent, they would have helped the economy develop in spite of their corruption."


To summarise:

- incompetence is a bigger problem than corruption. If you are incompetent, you won't do any good even if you don't do a rupee of corruption. This is of course doesn't mean that corruption is beneficial. It isn't, but it is not as bad as incompetence.
 
So according to Atif Miam, PPP and certainly PML-N are both corrupt and incompetent so fail your standards big time

PMLN, PPP and PTI are all incompetent, and they have all taken turns after polishing boots. Imran today is playing the same role Nawaz did in the 90's and Benazir before him. Nothing is different this time.
 
Your eloquence cannot mask your immaturity and hypocrisy. You admit that the PMLN government was incompetent and yet you continue supporting them and want them back in power?

What Imran is doing is not about eliminating corruption altogether, it is about curbing corruption at the highest levels. Societal and institutional change is always a top down process. Curbing corruption at the top will have a profound effect at all levels as it shows that no one is above the law.

I really don't know how competencies can be built without a culture of honesty and meritocracy. You talk about right people for the right job and then declare honesty to be overrated. Even if you equip your youth with competencies and skills will be they be able to secure a future for themselves in a corrupt and nepotistic society like ours? Without a culture of honesty we will continue having Maryams and their daddies appropriating the rights of the more deserving. Without a culture of honesty we can not expect the lowest classes to have a chance of making a future for themselves (the main problem with our society).

So we should hold India as our ideal? If India is corrupt why should we aspire to be like them? Why can't we aspire to be better than them? Why should we not look at countries who have not only achieved economic success but done so without sacrificing values like honesty.

I don't support PMLN. I support any party that opposes military interference in politics.

I supported PTI when Imran had the guts to stand up to military bullying and didn't hesitate from calling them a "bull in china shop" and guilty of extra-judiciary killings. However, after his ideology got hit for a six in 2013 when apart from KP, the country rejected him, he started polishing boots to come into power, and that is why I don't believe that he is capable of steering the country in the right direction, and his economic policies in his first year reflect that.

The focus on chor, daku, corruption, no air-conditioner and tv in Nawaz's jail etc. are all attempts to deflect attention from the fact that his government has been a circus.

Competencies are built when you appoint qualified people who know what they are doing. They are not built by appointing honest people. Speaking of meritocracy, it doesn't exist in PTI either. Why was Jahangir Tareen's son PTI's candidate for NA-154 in February 2018? What credentials did he have?

Family politics has been rampant in KP by-elections. The problem with Imran are his shameless double-standards and his failure to practice what he preaches. Everything is halal as long as you are on his side, but everything is haram when you are not. This attitude has rubbed onto his supporters as well.

India is not our ideal, but it is very strong example of how incompetence is a bigger constraint than corruption. Pakistan and India share plenty of socio-cultural similarites and have plenty of common problems, but they have managed to achieve economic growth in spite of rampant corruption because of two main factors:

(1) they have focused on building competencies instead of obsessing with corruption, because they understand how economy develops and (2) they have kept their army out of the economy and it is subservient to the government. The relationship between Modi and the Indian COAS is not the same as the relationship between Imran and Bajwa.
 
As usual, a misinformed and a thoughtless comment. Please read Daron Acemoglu’s seminal work on institutional quality and economic growth. I’m sure if you probe Atif Mian further, he will agree with Acemoglu.

As I have said previously, economics doesn’t lend itself to a casual opinion. You continue to come across as someone who has zero grasp of economics.

Such lazy posts don't add anything to the discussion. You need to learn how to have a discussion, and a two line critique with a reference to someone else's work is not part of a successful discourse.
 
In his case, PML-N led the charge to oppose his selection....

It’s a well-known fact regarding PML-N was behind the targeting of Atif Mian for his faith (which should be nobody’s business) rather than focusing on his brilliancy and finite grasp of socio- economic challenges faced by Pakistan. This highly detrimental move by the Sharifs smacks of blatant hypocrisy since Nawaz Sharif‘s money man (who was residing in the USA for over 40 years who’s lavish mansion Nawaz would stay at when in Washington DC) and who’s ironically his very near and dear confidant is also of the same faith as Atif Man. Very few people know about this person whose name is Syed Sheikh. This notorious Slim Shady under the cover of darkness has been managing Nawaz Sharif’s millions if not billions of dollars acquired through Nawaz’s corrupt wheelings and dealings since he was A minister under Z A Bhutto’s admin. This guy then fled to Switzerland where much of the Sharif‘s money is hidden away in Swiss Bank accounts, and did so cleverly before the IK government could pursue him which they could’ve done while he was still residing in the US. It’s still not too late, Imran Khan’s government should still pursue the Sharif (and Zardari) accounts hidden away in Swiss banks and in numerous other accounts all over the world and bring back every single cent back into Pakistan’s national treasury where it belongs.

As a case in point, the previous Obama administration was able to do a deep dive into many Americans hidden oversees accounts in what’s known as “financial forensic investigation” which exposed many American tax evaders who had hidden money in Swiss bank accounts and thus were able to recover billions of dollars back into the US treasury.
 
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Such lazy posts don't add anything to the discussion. You need to learn how to have a discussion, and a two line critique with a reference to someone else's work is not part of a successful discourse.

Unlike your constant lies which add to the discussion. Can you tell us your source for the 9000?
 
It’s a well-known fact regarding PML-N was behind the targeting of Atif Mian for his faith (which should be nobody’s business) rather than focusing on his brilliancy and finite grasp of socio- economic challenges faced by Pakistan. This highly detrimental move by the Sharifs smacks of blatant hypocrisy since Nawaz Sharif‘s money man (who was residing in the USA for over 40 years who’s lavish mansion Nawaz would stay at when in Washington DC) and who’s ironically his very near and dear confidant is also of the same faith as Atif Man. Very few people know about this person whose name is Syed Sheikh. This notorious Slim Shady under the cover of darkness has been managing Nawaz Sharif’s millions if not billions of dollars acquired through Nawaz’s corrupt wheelings and dealings since he was A minister under Z A Bhutto’s admin. This guy then fled to Switzerland where much of the Sharif‘s money is hidden away in Swiss Bank accounts, and did so cleverly before the IK government could pursue him which they could’ve done while he was still residing in the US. It’s still not too late, Imran Khan’s government should still pursue the Sharif (and Zardari) accounts hidden away in Swiss banks and in numerous other accounts all over the world and bring back every single cent back into Pakistan’s national treasury where it belongs.

As a case in point, the previous Obama administration was able to do a deep dive into many Americans hidden oversees accounts in what’s known as “financial forensic investigation” which exposed many American tax evaders who had hidden money in Swiss bank accounts and thus were able to recover billions of dollars back into the US treasury.

Exactly, especially as part of WoT , US treasury Dept has put a lot of financial tracking mechanisms that can be leveraged under WB StAR (Stolen Asset Recovery) program.
 
I don't support PMLN. I support any party that opposes military interference in politics.

I supported PTI when Imran had the guts to stand up to military bullying and didn't hesitate from calling them a "bull in china shop" and guilty of extra-judiciary killings. However, after his ideology got hit for a six in 2013 when apart from KP, the country rejected him, he started polishing boots to come into power, and that is why I don't believe that he is capable of steering the country in the right direction, and his economic policies in his first year reflect that.

The focus on chor, daku, corruption, no air-conditioner and tv in Nawaz's jail etc. are all attempts to deflect attention from the fact that his government has been a circus.

Competencies are built when you appoint qualified people who know what they are doing. They are not built by appointing honest people. Speaking of meritocracy, it doesn't exist in PTI either. Why was Jahangir Tareen's son PTI's candidate for NA-154 in February 2018? What credentials did he have?

Family politics has been rampant in KP by-elections. The problem with Imran are his shameless double-standards and his failure to practice what he preaches. Everything is halal as long as you are on his side, but everything is haram when you are not. This attitude has rubbed onto his supporters as well.

India is not our ideal, but it is very strong example of how incompetence is a bigger constraint than corruption. Pakistan and India share plenty of socio-cultural similarites and have plenty of common problems, but they have managed to achieve economic growth in spite of rampant corruption because of two main factors:

(1) they have focused on building competencies instead of obsessing with corruption, because they understand how economy develops and (2) they have kept their army out of the economy and it is subservient to the government. The relationship between Modi and the Indian COAS is not the same as the relationship between Imran and Bajwa.

I agree with you and I disagree. There definitely needs to be lesser military interference. I am not a proponent of the "everything is rigged" camp but I do agree with your point in principle and a lot of our woes are a result of that.

I disagree with the competencies without honesty model as that will invariably lead to self interest becoming the primary motivation. Not that that is totally unavoidable (i am not envisaging a utopia) but a culture of honesty and accountability with the example being set right at the top can make a real difference. I also agree about lack of meritocracy in a lot of what PTI has done but that does not absolve the previous governments from giving an account of what they did when they were in power.

Dynastic politics is a curse for this country. Sadly, it won't change as long as there isn't a fundamental shift in the social structure of the country which i don't see happening any time soon. Even PTI post Imran (if it survives) is likely to be a power struggle between Tareen and Qureshi for their dynasties.
 
Atif to come under a massive attack from Jyalas and Noonies soon for questioning the sensitive topic of 18th Amendment :))
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Interesting point. <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@AtifRMian</a> too raised this issue recently.. <a href="https://t.co/HIPPquolcI">https://t.co/HIPPquolcI</a> <a href="https://t.co/jOxZ3whu0N">pic.twitter.com/jOxZ3whu0N</a></p>— Rooshan Aziz (@rooshanaziz) <a href="https://twitter.com/rooshanaziz/status/1214961086585352193?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 8, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
I don't support PMLN. I support any party that opposes military interference in politics.

I supported PTI when Imran had the guts to stand up to military bullying and didn't hesitate from calling them a "bull in china shop" and guilty of extra-judiciary killings. However, after his ideology got hit for a six in 2013 when apart from KP, the country rejected him, he started polishing boots to come into power, and that is why I don't believe that he is capable of steering the country in the right direction, and his economic policies in his first year reflect that.

The focus on chor, daku, corruption, no air-conditioner and tv in Nawaz's jail etc. are all attempts to deflect attention from the fact that his government has been a circus.

Competencies are built when you appoint qualified people who know what they are doing. They are not built by appointing honest people. Speaking of meritocracy, it doesn't exist in PTI either. Why was Jahangir Tareen's son PTI's candidate for NA-154 in February 2018? What credentials did he have?

Family politics has been rampant in KP by-elections. The problem with Imran are his shameless double-standards and his failure to practice what he preaches. Everything is halal as long as you are on his side, but everything is haram when you are not. This attitude has rubbed onto his supporters as well.

India is not our ideal, but it is very strong example of how incompetence is a bigger constraint than corruption. Pakistan and India share plenty of socio-cultural similarites and have plenty of common problems, but they have managed to achieve economic growth in spite of rampant corruption because of two main factors:

(1) they have focused on building competencies instead of obsessing with corruption, because they understand how economy develops and (2) they have kept their army out of the economy and it is subservient to the government. The relationship between Modi and the Indian COAS is not the same as the relationship between Imran and Bajwa.

I guess it’s safe to assume that you’re no longer rooting for Bilawal or Maryam, right?
 
I guess it’s safe to assume that you’re no longer rooting for Bilawal or Maryam, right?

I still respect PMLN more than others because Nawaz has the distinction of being the only civilian leader to file a high treason against a military dictator. The nation will never forget his great service.
 
I still respect PMLN more than others because Nawaz has the distinction of being the only civilian leader to file a high treason against a military dictator. The nation will never forget his great service.

Sure. But at the end of the day, Nawaz toed the line and supported the Army Act.
 
Sure. But at the end of the day, Nawaz toed the line and supported the Army Act.

He did it to get out of jail. It was part of the deal that allowed him to walk out of jail without paying a penny and left Imran red-faced.

Ultimately, there is no difference between Imran and Nawaz. Both took a U-turn on this issue for personal interests. Nawaz wanted to be free and Imran wanted to protect his puppet premiership.
 
He did it to get out of jail. It was part of the deal that allowed him to walk out of jail without paying a penny and left Imran red-faced.

Ultimately, there is no difference between Imran and Nawaz. Both took a U-turn on this issue for personal interests. Nawaz wanted to be free and Imran wanted to protect his puppet premiership.

Yes no difference! One is renowned traitor, stated to be dishonest, corrupt and also bought the Pakistani economy down #NawazSharif. Whilst Khan only bought glory to Pakistan. This includes his cricket career, charity work and also getting Pakistan out of the hands of the two corrupt mafia parties: PMLN & PPP. Open your eyes.
 
I still respect PMLN more than others because Nawaz has the distinction of being the only civilian leader to file a high treason against a military dictator. The nation will never forget his great service.

Can you provide a link to any comments from this leader of yours since the verdict because I am sure he is celebrating
 
He did it to get out of jail. It was part of the deal that allowed him to walk out of jail without paying a penny and left Imran red-faced.

Ultimately, there is no difference between Imran and Nawaz. Both took a U-turn on this issue for personal interests. Nawaz wanted to be free and Imran wanted to protect his puppet premiership.

So before IK was left humiliated but today its red faced. Come on, your losing it! Hold firm, unlike your hero who promised he would rather die than to leave the country and today he is dying in Harrods.
 
So before IK was left humiliated but today its red faced. Come on, your losing it! Hold firm, unlike your hero who promised he would rather die than to leave the country and today he is dying in Harrods.

Mian Sahab once said (actually just 2/3 months ago before moving to london). Akbar ne suna hai ahl-e-ġhairat se yehi. Jeena zillat se ho to merna acha...

I wonder what happened to the ghaerat or the definition of ghaerat changed?
 
Mian Sahab once said (actually just 2/3 months ago before moving to london). Akbar ne suna hai ahl-e-ġhairat se yehi. Jeena zillat se ho to merna acha...

I wonder what happened to the ghaerat or the definition of ghaerat changed?

I am have really enjoyed the total destruction of the pathetic narrative in front of their supporters eyes. There is no hiding place.
 
I am have really enjoyed the total destruction of the pathetic narrative in front of their supporters eyes. There is no hiding place.

Khawaja Asif is the new punching bag now they are blaming him for misleading innocent mian sahab and for keeping baby Maryam away from politics locked down in Raiwind.
 
So before IK was left humiliated but today its red faced. Come on, your losing it! Hold firm, unlike your hero who promised he would rather die than to leave the country and today he is dying in Harrods.

Oh dear.

Do you seriously not get the definition of “red-faced” in this context? Let me help you:

According to Merriam-Webster,

having or showing a red face especially from embarrassment, anger, or shame

The word “red-faced” and “humiliated” are synonyms. Perhaps I should not use synonyms and take your limited vocabulary into consideration. I am sorry to say but for a teacher in England, your grasp of English is shockingly weak.
 
Oh dear.

Do you seriously not get the definition of “red-faced” in this context? Let me help you:

According to Merriam-Webster,

having or showing a red face especially from embarrassment, anger, or shame

The word “red-faced” and “humiliated” are synonyms. Perhaps I should not use synonyms and take your limited vocabulary into consideration. I am sorry to say but for a teacher in England, your grasp of English is shockingly weak.

Yes running away from your own country with your tail between your legs , whilst telling everyone that you are deaths door is leaving his opponents red faced? Imagine you are supporting him and believed him lolThe only red faced people are idiots like you that told us that we must trust him.
 
Khawaja Asif is the new punching bag now they are blaming him for misleading innocent mian sahab and for keeping baby Maryam away from politics locked down in Raiwind.

Wasn't it chacha because obviously NS would never bow to the boots. Is it KA now , the Nooras are just desperate fir any narrative to convince some losers that it wasnt the duffer. This sounds like a melt down.
 
Yes no difference! One is renowned traitor, stated to be dishonest, corrupt and also bought the Pakistani economy down #NawazSharif. Whilst Khan only bought glory to Pakistan. This includes his cricket career, charity work and also getting Pakistan out of the hands of the two corrupt mafia parties: PMLN & PPP. Open your eyes.

Yes, he got Pakistan out of the hands of the two corrupt mafias by handing Pakistan over to people like Fawad Chaudhry, Shah Mehmood Qureshi, Firdous Awan, Hafeez Sheikh, Pervez Khattak etc., politicians who were part of the corrupt mafias that Imran was supposedly fighting.

Yes yes I know, they were cleaned by Insaaf detergent and I am also aware of the Youthopian logic that “when your leader is honest everyone below him is honest as well”.
 
Yes running away from your own country with your tail between your legs , whilst telling everyone that you are deaths door is leaving his opponents red faced? Imagine you are supporting him and believed him lolThe only red faced people are idiots like you that told us that we must trust him.

Imran had absolutely no inclination that his masters would allow Nawaz to leave the country without paying a rupee.

He repeatedly promised his cult-followers that he would deliver justice and people like Nawaz would rot in jail. In fact, two weeks before Nawaz embarrassed him, he was mocking Nawaz and asking his cult-followers if he should allow an air-conditioner in his prison cell or not.

You can say that Nawaz humiliated himself by running away, but the amount of embarrassment that he caused Imran and the way he exposed Imran as a powerless puppet (who couldn’t stop him from leaving the country) was far more humiliating.
 
He did it to get out of jail. It was part of the deal that allowed him to walk out of jail without paying a penny and left Imran red-faced.

Ultimately, there is no difference between Imran and Nawaz. Both took a U-turn on this issue for personal interests. Nawaz wanted to be free and Imran wanted to protect his puppet premiership.

Okay.

But coming back to my question: Do you no longer support Bilawal and Maryam?
You did claim back in July on this thread that you won’t support anyone that is an army puppet.

I’m sure you’re a principled guy and will end your support for those corrupt now.
 
Okay.

But coming back to my question: Do you no longer support Bilawal and Maryam?
You did claim back in July on this thread that you won’t support anyone that is an army puppet.

I’m sure you’re a principled guy and will end your support for those corrupt now.

Correct. I will only support parties that are anti-establishment at any given time. If Imran takes on Bajwa tomorrow, I will support him as well.
 
Correct. I will only support parties that are anti-establishment at any given time. If Imran takes on Bajwa tomorrow, I will support him as well.

No you wont and nor would the Nooras or the PPP. You guys have been exposed as liars.
 
Imran had absolutely no inclination that his masters would allow Nawaz to leave the country without paying a rupee.

He repeatedly promised his cult-followers that he would deliver justice and people like Nawaz would rot in jail. In fact, two weeks before Nawaz embarrassed him, he was mocking Nawaz and asking his cult-followers if he should allow an air-conditioner in his prison cell or not.

You can say that Nawaz humiliated himself by running away, but the amount of embarrassment that he caused Imran and the way he exposed Imran as a powerless puppet (who couldn’t stop him from leaving the country) was far more humiliating.

I do say IK has humiliated NS and more to the point NS humiliated himself and supporters with his lies. He made all the people that told us that we must trust him that he is seriously ill, look like total idiots.
 
I do say IK has humiliated NS and more to the point NS humiliated himself and supporters with his lies. He made all the people that told us that we must trust him that he is seriously ill, look like total idiots.

PTI’s own appointed doctors confirm his deteriorating health. So who were the total idiots?

The PTI-appointed doctors or the PTI leadership for appointing those doctors?

Why can’t PTI get anything right? Why are they so incompetent?

Furthermore, it is quite telling that Nawaz didn’t even bother to use a wheelchair to board the plane. He knew that PTI and its supporters would pick on that and declare that he is faking it, but he didn’t even care.

He slapped Imran and PTI supporters on the face.
 
PTI’s own appointed doctors confirm his deteriorating health. So who were the total idiots?

The PTI-appointed doctors or the PTI leadership for appointing those doctors?

Why can’t PTI get anything right? Why are they so incompetent?

Furthermore, it is quite telling that Nawaz didn’t even bother to use a wheelchair to board the plane. He knew that PTI and its supporters would pick on that and declare that he is faking it, but he didn’t even care.

He slapped Imran and PTI supporters on the face.

Its interesting that you are blaming the PTI Docs for this but i remember you saying that he was so ill and telling me how wrong i was, and it was shame on me for calling out the crook for his fakery. So he made complete tool out of you and the Doctors and not me. The guy is a crook who ran and thats all he does, run. A real man would have fought and taken his punishment.
 
Its interesting that you are blaming the PTI Docs for this but i remember you saying that he was so ill and telling me how wrong i was, and it was shame on me for calling out the crook for his fakery. So he made complete tool out of you and the Doctors and not me. The guy is a crook who ran and thats all he does, run. A real man would have fought and taken his punishment.

I am not blaming anything.

You are evading my point. Let me repeat:

PTI appointed doctors to check if Nawaz was ill or not. They told him that he was ill and that is why Imran allowed him to be shifted to the Services Hospital in Lahore.

At that time, cult-followers like you were praising Imran for showing humanity.

But now you are insisting that Nawaz tricked the doctors. What kind of doctors get tricked by a patient after examining him in person?

Why did PTI leaders appoint such clowns and couldn’t find competent doctors? Again, why is PTI so incompetent?

If PTI would have appointed competent doctors, they would have revealed to Imran that Nawaz was faking his illness (assuming that he was).

This means that he wouldn’t have been shifted to the hospital and he wouldn’t have been able to leave the country.

So again, the blame goes to Imran Khan for appointing clowns who got conned by Nawaz so easily.

It is amazing how Imran can’t even get the simple things right.
 
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I am not blaming anything.

You are evading my point. Let me repeat:

PTI appointed doctors to check if Nawaz was ill or not. They told him that he was ill and that is why Imran allowed him to be shifted to the Services Hospital in Lahore.

At that time, cult-followers like you were praising Imran for showing humanity.

But now you are insisting that Nawaz tricked the doctors. What kind of doctors get tricked by a patient after examining him in person?

Why did PTI leaders appoint such clowns and couldn’t find competent doctors? Again, why is PTI so incompetent?

If PTI would have appointed competent doctors, they would have revealed to Imran that Nawaz was faking his illness (assuming that he was).

This means that he wouldn’t have been shifted to the hospital and he wouldn’t have been able to leave the country.

So again, the blame goes to Imran Khan for appointing clowns who got conned by Nawaz so easily.

It is amazing how Imran can’t even get the simple things right.

So if the PTI Docs said there was nothing wrong with him and called him out for being fake, what would you have said. Therein lies your innate dishonesty and hence the daily humiliation. Can you say on your mothers life that you would have accepted that decision and accepted their professional judgement. No chance.
 
So if the PTI Docs said there was nothing wrong with him and called him out for being fake, what would you have said. Therein lies your innate dishonesty and hence the daily humiliation. Can you say on your mothers life that you would have accepted that decision and accepted their professional judgement. No chance.

Please don’t run away from answering the question by turning this on me. What I would have said is of no relevance to the question here.

I know you have got yourself in a tangle and you want to run now but I will ask you again.

Why did the PTI appointed doctors who personally examined Nawaz in jail get tricked?

What kind of doctors get deceived after examining a patient in person?

Why did PTI appoint such fools to examine Nawaz in the first place?

The entire trust of the nation hinged on the judgement of those doctors, but Imran decided to hire street urchins to decide if Nawaz was actually ill or not. Incredible.

Will you finally muster the courage to admit that Imran goofed up in spectacular fashion?

So in truth, Imran has been humiliated on two accounts here. First, his self-appointed doctors turned out to be clowns who got fooled by a patient and second, Imran couldn’t stop Nawaz from leaving the country without paying a penny.

Hence, regardless of whether he is ill or not, the fact is that Imran and PTI cannot come out of this without embarrassment.
 
Wasn't it chacha because obviously NS would never bow to the boots. Is it KA now , the Nooras are just desperate fir any narrative to convince some losers that it wasnt the duffer. This sounds like a melt down.

As we all know Nawaz and Maryam are so innocent they don't know what's happening!
 
As we all know Nawaz and Maryam are so innocent they don't know what's happening!

Kisi ne zabardasti deh diyay London kay flat warna Sharif khandaan tu intihai naik aur pak saaf hai
 
Please don’t run away from answering the question by turning this on me. What I would have said is of no relevance to the question here.

I know you have got yourself in a tangle and you want to run now but I will ask you again.

Why did the PTI appointed doctors who personally examined Nawaz in jail get tricked?

What kind of doctors get deceived after examining a patient in person?

Why did PTI appoint such fools to examine Nawaz in the first place?

The entire trust of the nation hinged on the judgement of those doctors, but Imran decided to hire street urchins to decide if Nawaz was actually ill or not. Incredible.

Will you finally muster the courage to admit that Imran goofed up in spectacular fashion?

So in truth, Imran has been humiliated on two accounts here. First, his self-appointed doctors turned out to be clowns who got fooled by a patient and second, Imran couldn’t stop Nawaz from leaving the country without paying a penny.

Hence, regardless of whether he is ill or not, the fact is that Imran and PTI cannot come out of this without embarrassment.

I didnt agree with the decision and i still dont agree but why did you run from my question as to whether you have believed them or not. What would you have said if they had said he was faking it? Yes we know, he is fascist dictator and his Doctors werent given space. Hence the reason you have so much humiliation on here every day.
 
I didnt agree with the decision and i still dont agree but why did you run from my question as to whether you have believed them or not. What would you have said if they had said he was faking it? Yes we know, he is fascist dictator and his Doctors werent given space. Hence the reason you have so much humiliation on here every day.

You are still running.

What don’t you agree with?

According to you, Nawaz is a healthy stallion so that means that the PTI-appointed doctors were either supremely incompetent or liars.

So why did Imran choose incompetent fools and liars to make a judgment on such an important decision?

If the doctors lied, why didn’t Imran have the reports verified? He could have sent them to doctors all over the world.

In addition, he could have asked those doctors to come on live TV and explain their diagnoses and why they have come to the conclusion that Nawaz has XYZ problem due to which he should be shifted to the hospital.

Doctors all over the country would have watched it and it wouldn’t have taken more than a day for their lies and fabricated reports to be exposed.

The incompetent and lying doctors would have had their licenses revoked and Nawaz would have been exposed for faking his illness.

This would have prevented Nawaz from leaving jail and going to London because he would have had no excuse to go.

Now you can once again try to desperately deflect all of this and talk about what my reaction would have been which HAS NO RELEVANCE, but the reality is that you are caught in a tangle, you have no answer and you are dancing around my questions because you do not have the courage to admit the following:

(a) either Nawaz is actually ill

OR

(b) Imran goofed up big time and made a series of novice blunders that allowed Nawaz to leave the country without paying a penny.

I fully expect you to dodge these questions again and instead ask me what I would have said. However, again, it has no relevance. What I would have said does not change the events.

I know you don’t have answer because you do not have honesty to admit that Nawaz is either actually ill or that Imran messed up badly, and that is why I would take pity on you and not expose you any further on this matter.

If this was a boxing match the referee would have intervened by now and ended the match considering how you are struggling to stay on your feet.

Anyway, the stage is yours - if you want to have the last word to feel good about yourself you can go ahead by all means.

I will not reply on this topic any further unless you muster the honesty and the courage to admit (a) or (b).
 
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You are still running.

What don’t you agree with?

According to you, Nawaz is a healthy stallion so that means that the PTI-appointed doctors were either supremely incompetent or liars.

So why did Imran choose incompetent fools and liars to make a judgment on such an important decision?

If the doctors lied, why didn’t Imran have the reports verified? He could have sent them to doctors all over the world.

In addition, he could have asked those doctors to come on live TV and explain their diagnoses and why they have come to the conclusion that Nawaz has XYZ problem due to which he should be shifted to the hospital.

Doctors all over the country would have watched it and it wouldn’t have taken more than a day for their lies and fabricated reports to be exposed.

The incompetent and lying doctors would have had their licenses revoked and Nawaz would have been exposed for faking his illness.

This would have prevented Nawaz from leaving jail and going to London because he would have had no excuse to go.

Now you can once again try to desperately deflect all of this and talk about what my reaction would have been which HAS NO RELEVANCE, but the reality is that you are caught in a tangle, you have no answer and you are dancing around my questions because you do not have the courage to admit the following:

(a) either Nawaz is actually ill

OR

(b) Imran goofed up big time and made a series of novice blunders that allowed Nawaz to leave the country without paying a penny.

I fully expect you to dodge these questions again and instead ask me what I would have said. However, again, it has no relevance. What I would have said does not change the events.

I know you don’t have answer because you do not have honesty to admit that Nawaz is either actually ill or that Imran messed up badly, and that is why I would take pity on you and not expose you any further on this matter.

If this was a boxing match the referee would have intervened by now and ended the match considering how you are struggling to stay on your feet.

Anyway, the stage is yours - if you want to have the last word to feel good about yourself you can go ahead by all means.

I will not reply on this topic any further unless you muster the honesty and the courage to admit (a) or (b).

Whose running, I have given you a straight answer. I knew the thing was fake and I was proved right So my question was simple one to you and once again you are ducking and diving-If the Doctors had said he was fit and healthy, losers like you would have told that this was a conspiracy to kill the duffer. Remember you were giving verdicts on his health based on watching Geo and lifafas. Those same lifafas have lied for money.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Some observations on policy actions of the state bank based on earlier thread.<br><br>First, a major positive change has been the move to a market-based exchange rate regime. SBP under new leadership held the fort through the painful adjustment period. This deserves praise. <a href="https://t.co/jCd2XhrtgJ">https://t.co/jCd2XhrtgJ</a></p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1219821195882893312?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 22, 2020</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Second, steps taken towards digitization and greater transparency of the financial sector are welcome changes. <br><br>The initial success from stabilization has brought new challenges though in the form of "hot money" portfolio flows.</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1219821197078212609?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 22, 2020</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I was critical of the government move to cut taxes to encourage foreign flows into government debt. However, these cuts were on longer-dated bonds, and flows into TBills had started before the change.<a href="https://t.co/MhecwOh4gr">https://t.co/MhecwOh4gr</a></p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1219821198072254464?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 22, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It would be wrong to give the impression that the government "caused" the hot money flows - it didn't. <br><br>But it must manage these flows, and that is the next stage macro-prudential challenge. This is where it is important to keep in sight the principles in earlier thread.</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1219821199167049728?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 22, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Tax incentives and ease of convertibility should be targeted towards FDI, and away from portfolio flows at this stage of financial and economic development for Pakistan. This is the broader lesson from history in my view.</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1219821200131661824?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 22, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Some observations on policy actions of the state bank based on earlier thread.<br><br>First, a major positive change has been the move to a market-based exchange rate regime. SBP under new leadership held the fort through the painful adjustment period. This deserves praise. <a href="https://t.co/jCd2XhrtgJ">https://t.co/jCd2XhrtgJ</a></p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1219821195882893312?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 22, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Second, steps taken towards digitization and greater transparency of the financial sector are welcome changes. <br><br>The initial success from stabilization has brought new challenges though in the form of "hot money" portfolio flows.</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1219821197078212609?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 22, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I was critical of the government move to cut taxes to encourage foreign flows into government debt. However, these cuts were on longer-dated bonds, and flows into TBills had started before the change.<a href="https://t.co/MhecwOh4gr">https://t.co/MhecwOh4gr</a></p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1219821198072254464?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 22, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It would be wrong to give the impression that the government "caused" the hot money flows - it didn't. <br><br>But it must manage these flows, and that is the next stage macro-prudential challenge. This is where it is important to keep in sight the principles in earlier thread.</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1219821199167049728?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 22, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Tax incentives and ease of convertibility should be targeted towards FDI, and away from portfolio flows at this stage of financial and economic development for Pakistan. This is the broader lesson from history in my view.</p>— Atif Mian (@AtifRMian) <a href="https://twitter.com/AtifRMian/status/1219821200131661824?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 22, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]
This is your favourite Economist saying what we have been saying about the courage of IK. More humiliation for you.
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]
This is your favourite Economist saying what we have been saying about the courage of IK. More humiliation for you.

Don't know about the courage of IK and the government but is he still advising the government in an "unofficial" capacity? If so these are the real sons and heroes of Pakistan.
 
Don't know about the courage of IK and the government but is he still advising the government in an "unofficial" capacity? If so these are the real sons and heroes of Pakistan.

Just imagine the crisis if IK decided that he wasn't going to be the fall guy for Noora looting and incompetence? This crisis has hurt the very people he came into politics to help but he has done his duty for PK.
As far as Atif Mian is concerned, he doesn't have a monopoly on economic knowledge, most of what he recommended is common sense and most people bar Munshi Dar would know what to do
 
The Ministry of Finance on Friday issued a rebuttal to Pakistani-American economist Atif Mian’s criticism of its economic policy, terming it “misplaced” and a “purely theoretical point of view”.

Mian, who is a professor of economics at the prestigious Princeton University and the first Pakistani to rank among the 25 top economists in the world, had compared Pakistan with two other countries — Sri Lanka and Ghana — that have also been facing economic crises.

In a series of tweets, he pointed out that while both Ghana and Sri Lanka had defaulted during the last two years, Pakistan did not but its currency devalued by half, as did Ghana’s while Sri Lanka’s devalued by one-third.

The Pakistani currency, he noted, had devalued significantly more than Sri Lanka’s.

Comparing Pakistan’s trajectory with that of Sri Lanka and Ghana after they defaulted, Mian pointed out that both Ghan*aian and Sri Lankan currencies had stabilised post-default as they ent*ered restru*cturing programmes.

Pakistan’s, however, continued its downward trajectory over the two years, and “it continues to go down” and “there is no end in sight”, he said.

“To thump your chest and say, ‘see we have not defaulted,’ means nothing if you continue to ignore the underlying crisis. The only thing worse than indecisiveness in the face of a crisis is incompetence.

“One example: Pakistan is selling petrol at a price that is 20-25 per cent below the price it is sold in Ghana, Sri Lanka, India or Bangladesh. At the same time, the government is restricting imports of raw materials needed for production and export,” he said.

Mian added: “In other words, the government would rather cut the country’s GDP in order to sell cheap petrol! But then lower GDP will make it more difficult to pay off the debt — leading to more devaluation — more misery — and higher petrol prices in terms of purchasing power.

“This is just one example of the non-sensical policy choices being made. Addressing a BOP (balance of payments) crisis requires that a country acts decisively, restructures aggressively and takes courageous decisions that demonstrate a clear break from the past.”

Responding to his critical analysis, the Ministry of Finance issued a statement saying the “well-respect economist” had made a “veiled suggestion to declare default” with his conclusions.

“This is a misplaced criticism made from a purely theoretical point of view. The gentleman has no idea how practical economics operates in practice,” the ministry said, adding that the comparisons with Ghana and Sri Lanka were also “misplaced” due to the “incomparably small size of their economies and populations relative to Pakistan”.

Mian “did not care to analyse the structure of Pakistan’s debt, which has less than 10pc share in commercial bonds sukuk, with the next maturity falling due in April 2024,” the statement read.

“The rest of the debt is owed to multilateral and bilateral creditors. Both these classes of creditors are engaged with Pakistan and none has assessed that Pakistan should default,” the ministry maintained.

It also said that Mian had “completely ignored the deep-rooted reforms” undertaken in the country in the last nine months, including a “market exchange rate, interest rate adjustments, mid-year taxation to improve the fiscal position, imposition of a levy on petroleum products and non-monetisation of fiscal deficit”.

These measures, the ministry said, were undertaken under an International Monetary Fund (IMF) programme which was “unprecedented as never in country’s history such front-loaded conditionality was imposed”.

It went on to say, “We accomplished this through heroic efforts” and it was unfortunate that a staff-level agreement with the IMF for the release of a $1 billion tranche was delayed despite these efforts.

“The country is surviving economically and would continue to survive. What Pakistan has done is decisive and courageous; we would continue to walk the road to reforms to stabilise our economy and, in course of time, to steer it towards a path of sustainable growth,” the ministry said.

It added that Mian’s comparison of the nominal exchange rate was also “unwarranted”, claiming that Pakistan’s real exchange rate was currently estimated to be 15pc undervalued.

“The nominal rate is the result of speculation, market manipulation and general distraught from political instability. The undervalued exchange rate is reflective of the fact that underlying fundamentals are improving,” it maintained.

It added, “Pakistan has historically sold petroleum products at slightly lower prices than regional countries. With petroleum levy of Rs50 achieved, this doesn’t involve any subsidy from the government.

“It would be unwise to levy additional tax on consumers on top of prices that have doubled in less than a year, especially when they are facing rising inflation. The author has cited this as an example of non-sensical policies. This is simply a misplaced example.”

The ministry further said Pakistan’s economy had suffered because of “international shocks” of the Covid pandemic, Russia-Ukraine war and 2022’s devastating floods. Despite that, the statement said, the government had overcome the challenges from an “overly heated economy bequeathed to us in April 2022 and the breach of the IMF conditionality on the eve of departure of the PTI government”.

It maintained that the government had brought the current account deficit down to around $3.2 billion from $17.5bn. “This achievement is a reflection of bringing the economy to within its latent strengths and not on borrowed resources,” it said.

The ministry claimed that Mian was “oblivious to unprecedented political challenges faced by the country”.

“We are not living in calm and serene times,” it said, adding that the present situation had major economic repercussions but “with political stability likely to emerge soon, there would be a major economic turnaround”.

‘Jugarr economics’
Reacting to the ministry’s statement, journalist Khurram Husain said “jugarr (makeshift) economics hits back at academic economics”.

Likewise, Pakistan Initiative at Atlantic Council’s South Asia Centre Director Uzair Younus quipped that the finance ministry “truly does have its priorities in order”.

“Responding to threads by economists sitting abroad while the economy burns to the ground and inflation inflicts generational trauma on millions,” he tweeted.

DAWN
 
The Ministry of Finance on Friday issued a rebuttal to Pakistani-American economist Atif Mian’s criticism of its economic policy, terming it “misplaced” and a “purely theoretical point of view”.

Mian, who is a professor of economics at the prestigious Princeton University and the first Pakistani to rank among the 25 top economists in the world, had compared Pakistan with two other countries — Sri Lanka and Ghana — that have also been facing economic crises.

In a series of tweets, he pointed out that while both Ghana and Sri Lanka had defaulted during the last two years, Pakistan did not but its currency devalued by half, as did Ghana’s while Sri Lanka’s devalued by one-third.

The Pakistani currency, he noted, had devalued significantly more than Sri Lanka’s.

Comparing Pakistan’s trajectory with that of Sri Lanka and Ghana after they defaulted, Mian pointed out that both Ghan*aian and Sri Lankan currencies had stabilised post-default as they ent*ered restru*cturing programmes.

Pakistan’s, however, continued its downward trajectory over the two years, and “it continues to go down” and “there is no end in sight”, he said.

“To thump your chest and say, ‘see we have not defaulted,’ means nothing if you continue to ignore the underlying crisis. The only thing worse than indecisiveness in the face of a crisis is incompetence.

“One example: Pakistan is selling petrol at a price that is 20-25 per cent below the price it is sold in Ghana, Sri Lanka, India or Bangladesh. At the same time, the government is restricting imports of raw materials needed for production and export,” he said.

Mian added: “In other words, the government would rather cut the country’s GDP in order to sell cheap petrol! But then lower GDP will make it more difficult to pay off the debt — leading to more devaluation — more misery — and higher petrol prices in terms of purchasing power.

“This is just one example of the non-sensical policy choices being made. Addressing a BOP (balance of payments) crisis requires that a country acts decisively, restructures aggressively and takes courageous decisions that demonstrate a clear break from the past.”

Responding to his critical analysis, the Ministry of Finance issued a statement saying the “well-respect economist” had made a “veiled suggestion to declare default” with his conclusions.

“This is a misplaced criticism made from a purely theoretical point of view. The gentleman has no idea how practical economics operates in practice,” the ministry said, adding that the comparisons with Ghana and Sri Lanka were also “misplaced” due to the “incomparably small size of their economies and populations relative to Pakistan”.

Mian “did not care to analyse the structure of Pakistan’s debt, which has less than 10pc share in commercial bonds sukuk, with the next maturity falling due in April 2024,” the statement read.

“The rest of the debt is owed to multilateral and bilateral creditors. Both these classes of creditors are engaged with Pakistan and none has assessed that Pakistan should default,” the ministry maintained.

It also said that Mian had “completely ignored the deep-rooted reforms” undertaken in the country in the last nine months, including a “market exchange rate, interest rate adjustments, mid-year taxation to improve the fiscal position, imposition of a levy on petroleum products and non-monetisation of fiscal deficit”.

These measures, the ministry said, were undertaken under an International Monetary Fund (IMF) programme which was “unprecedented as never in country’s history such front-loaded conditionality was imposed”.

It went on to say, “We accomplished this through heroic efforts” and it was unfortunate that a staff-level agreement with the IMF for the release of a $1 billion tranche was delayed despite these efforts.

“The country is surviving economically and would continue to survive. What Pakistan has done is decisive and courageous; we would continue to walk the road to reforms to stabilise our economy and, in course of time, to steer it towards a path of sustainable growth,” the ministry said.

It added that Mian’s comparison of the nominal exchange rate was also “unwarranted”, claiming that Pakistan’s real exchange rate was currently estimated to be 15pc undervalued.

“The nominal rate is the result of speculation, market manipulation and general distraught from political instability. The undervalued exchange rate is reflective of the fact that underlying fundamentals are improving,” it maintained.

It added, “Pakistan has historically sold petroleum products at slightly lower prices than regional countries. With petroleum levy of Rs50 achieved, this doesn’t involve any subsidy from the government.

“It would be unwise to levy additional tax on consumers on top of prices that have doubled in less than a year, especially when they are facing rising inflation. The author has cited this as an example of non-sensical policies. This is simply a misplaced example.”

The ministry further said Pakistan’s economy had suffered because of “international shocks” of the Covid pandemic, Russia-Ukraine war and 2022’s devastating floods. Despite that, the statement said, the government had overcome the challenges from an “overly heated economy bequeathed to us in April 2022 and the breach of the IMF conditionality on the eve of departure of the PTI government”.

It maintained that the government had brought the current account deficit down to around $3.2 billion from $17.5bn. “This achievement is a reflection of bringing the economy to within its latent strengths and not on borrowed resources,” it said.

The ministry claimed that Mian was “oblivious to unprecedented political challenges faced by the country”.

“We are not living in calm and serene times,” it said, adding that the present situation had major economic repercussions but “with political stability likely to emerge soon, there would be a major economic turnaround”.

‘Jugarr economics’
Reacting to the ministry’s statement, journalist Khurram Husain said “jugarr (makeshift) economics hits back at academic economics”.

Likewise, Pakistan Initiative at Atlantic Council’s South Asia Centre Director Uzair Younus quipped that the finance ministry “truly does have its priorities in order”.

“Responding to threads by economists sitting abroad while the economy burns to the ground and inflation inflicts generational trauma on millions,” he tweeted.

DAWN

Thanks for the article. Any economist , and I mean real economist here would like to add something to the article ?
 
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