'Atmosphere May be Spoiled': UP Locality Residents Warn of 'Exodus' as 2 Houses Sold to Muslims

[MenInG]

The sale of two properties to Muslims in a middle-class neighbourhood in Uttar Pradesh’s Moradabad has riled residents of the area who have put up posters declaring their houses are up for sale and threatening an exodus.

Posters saying “Samuhik palayan. Yeh makaan bikau hai. Sampark karen. (Collective exit. This property is for sale. Please contact)” were put up at almost every door of Shiv Mandir Colony in the city’s Lajpat Nagar area, the Indian Express reported, even as the district administration suggested a property issue was at the heart of the matter.

A businessman whose family has been living in the area for the past 40 years said there was a “mutual understanding” that Muslims would live in “their areas and we will live in ours”. He added that the presence of the community would “spoil the atmosphere” as they would do “qurbaani during their festivals”.

Both these properties, located at two separate entry points of the small neighbourhood, were found locked, the report said.

As part of their protest, the residents gather every day at the Shiv temple in their colony. They also claim that “protecting” the temple is also driving this protest.

District Magistrate Shailendra Kumar Singh, who visited the locality with the Moradabad SSP, has said the issue erupted as some residents wanted to buy those two properties and were irate when they came to know they had been sold off.

“Some people are deliberately trying to disturb communal harmony over this issue through social media. Legal action will be taken against such people,” police said in a statement, adding that people are free to live anywhere.

One of the new owners, who did not want to be named, said he did not expect a protest. He said both the buyer and seller were happy with the transaction and hinted that politics could be behind the protest.

https://www.news18.com/news/india/a...odus-as-2-houses-sold-to-muslims-4048652.html

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I think Indians really caught on with the idea of partition, seems like they take it down to macro level, not just national.

 

[AdamM97]

I think Indians really caught on with the idea of partition, seems like they take it down to macro level, not just national.

If anything, it only strengthens Jinnah’s demand for an independent Muslim state. The Congress has long argued that Hindus and Muslims can live in the same country without any trouble, but the BJP seems determined to prove the All India Muslim League right.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This is UP, one of the states which Indian members always moan about being particularly backward if I recall correctly. I know they have partitions in Mumbai, but is it like this all over India?

 

[guna]

Multiculturalism failure. Even in developed countries, people live separately in different neighborhoods due to race, religious differences.

 

[guna]

If anything, it only strengthens Jinnah’s demand for an independent Muslim state. The Congress has long argued that Hindus and Muslims can live in the same country without any trouble, but the BJP seems determined to prove the All India Muslim League right.

Hindus and Muslims always lived in different neighborhoods and parts of any city, village or towns. Even Christians do the same now in India. Its like people living in one house, but in different rooms. Nobody likes when others show up in their rooms.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Multiculturalism failure. Even in developed countries, people live separately in different neighborhoods due to race, religious differences.

Not true in Britain. While you do get areas where certain ethnic communities gather, you also get plenty of them moving out into different areas. If a Pakistani or an Indian wants to buy a house in a highly desirable area, he or she can. You will find them already in most exclusive areas up and down the country.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The Hindus of India should kindly secede sections of land to Muslims if they don't want to stay with them.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

I think Indians really caught on with the idea of partition, seems like they take it down to macro level, not just national.

hmmm ... not fully sure about that.
Did you notice the same heinous Hindus are all ready to buy land, property and housing in Kashmir after 370 was illegally removed?

 

[Bewal Express]

Multiculturalism failure. Even in developed countries, people live separately in different neighborhoods due to race, religious differences.

I live in a Middle class white neighbourhood but it has desis that can afford to live in it. More and more desis are moving to traditionally white neighbourhoods and not a single issue.

 

[PakLFC]

Soon in India they will have separate toilet's and kitchens for Hindu's and Muslim's. Then they will have separate shops, clothes, utensils and anything else we can think off. What has Quaid Jinnah done to them??)))

 

[PakLFC]

In the UK most minorities have no problem in living in a majority area. It depends how well you integrate and behave. Living in a majority white area I've never had any problems whatsoever with anyone. As long as you don't look at everything from a religious angle then all should be good. This is where many Muslim's are lacking, i am afraid.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Soon in India they will have separate toilet's and kitchens for Hindu's and Muslim's. Then they will have separate shops, clothes, utensils and anything else we can think off. What has Quaid Jinnah done to them??)))

This is actually good .... it only means more pieces of India in making.

 

[guna]

Soon in India they will have separate toilet's and kitchens for Hindu's and Muslim's. Then they will have separate shops, clothes, utensils and anything else we can think off. What has Quaid Jinnah done to them??)))

Hopefully soon in india people grow up and give up religion and live like humans.

 

[street cricketer]

South asia will develop only when people give up religion as a political tool. Or at the very least take religion less seriously.

Is it a coincidence that the most developed regions on earth are where people take religion less serious..Even within south asia, the relatively better developed regions are regions where religion is taken less seriously and the worst developed regions are regions where people are so worked up about religion.

Many people might not agree with this and might even get offended because they're religious, and that's fine, but this is the fact. All of India, Pakistan and China were all in a similar state after independence. Yet why there is drastic differences in development between China, India and Pakistan? It is like three families starting out in slums. China is that parent who was very strict (authoritarian government) who made a complete ban on engaging in leisure games for his children and tasked them with concentrating only on education. India and Pakistan are those parents who gave their children full freedom to play roadside cricket daily where they both shared a bitter rivalry (religion). India and Pakistan both desperately attempted to outdo each other in the roadside games (religion) over the years. However China banned its children from engaging in non productive games and his children got educated and moved out of the slums to a more posh part of the city while India and Pakistan continue the bitter rivalry in their roadside olympics in the slums.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Fifth of white non-Muslims believe that British culture is ‘under threat from invasion’, poll shows



https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www....k-british-culture-white-poll-b421631.html?amp

Only 1 in 5 Britons would feel comfortable with Muslim neighbour'


https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front...rtable-with-muslim-neighbour-7240822.html?amp



White British homeowners more likely to move out if Pakistanis buy houses nearby


https://theconversation.com/white-b...ve-out-if-pakistanis-buy-houses-nearby-114477

Seems the white population in UK isnt very comfortable with Muslim neighbors. Seems the issue is everywhere.

May be they should cede land or break into pieces?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Hopefully soon in india people grow up and give up religion and live like humans.

If you are not into religion, doesn't mean you have the right to call religious people inhuman.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Fifth of white non-Muslims believe that British culture is ‘under threat from invasion’, poll shows



https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www....k-british-culture-white-poll-b421631.html?amp

Only 1 in 5 Britons would feel comfortable with Muslim neighbour'


https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front...rtable-with-muslim-neighbour-7240822.html?amp



White British homeowners more likely to move out if Pakistanis buy houses nearby


https://theconversation.com/white-b...ve-out-if-pakistanis-buy-houses-nearby-114477

Seems the white population in UK isnt very comfortable with Muslim neighbors. Seems the issue is everywhere.

May be they should cede land or break into pieces?

You would have to been googling pretty hard to come across those stories. White people move out if they get Sikhs or hindus moving next door, that's how you end up with large Indian communities in places like Leicester or Wembley. If the whites didn't move out, how could the hindus move in?

Yo don't live here, so you have no idea how it works. How would a white person know if their neighbour is hindu or Muslim? Just because you practice segregation in India, don't assume the most successful nations do it. That's why the UK looks like it does, and India looks like Pakistan.

 

[guna]

If you are not into religion, doesn't mean you have the right to call religious people inhuman.

Religion divides. Humanity unites everyone irrespective of race, religion and gender.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Seems the white population in UK isnt very comfortable with Muslim neighbors. Seems the issue is everywhere.

May be they should cede land or break into pieces?

Do you think that like the brown hindus the white British are also frightened of qurbanis happening?

Also don't you think its peculiar that the Muslims of India are generationally indigenous to those lands, perhaps even responsible for its golden era in art, architecture and culture, but still people don't want to live next door to them?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Do you think that like the brown hindus the white British are also frightened of qurbanis happening?

Also don't you think its peculiar that the Muslims of India are generationally indigenous to those lands, perhaps even responsible for its golden era in art, architecture and culture, but still people don't want to live next door to them?

Well i am not claiming anything about the white British, i only posted what British media outlets published.

Golden era of art architecture culture? Lol.

They were invaders who looted. Were involved in breaking and looting religious places, forceful conversions, exploitation on many other things.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Well i am not claiming anything about the white British, i only posted what British media outlets published.

Golden era of art architecture culture? Lol.

They were invaders who looted. Were involved in breaking and looting religious places, forceful conversions, exploitation on many other things.

British media publish all sorts of stuff if you want to search hard enough for it. There will probably be surveys of white people who left Wembley and Southall because they couldn't stand the smell of curries cooking wafting from down the street.

Your hindutva sources which inform you of Muslim invaders and forceful conversions probably conveniently leave out the bits about low castes getting boiling oil poured into their ears if they stepped out of line, or hindu women forced to jump onto their husbands funeral pyre when they died.

Se? It's easy to play that game. Tell history how it was if you want to go down that road.

 

[guna]

Do you think that like the brown hindus the white British are also frightened of qurbanis happening?

Also don't you think its peculiar that the Muslims of India are generationally indigenous to those lands, perhaps even responsible for its golden era in art, architecture and culture, but still people don't want to live next door to them?

Still failed to integrate into the Indian society. Unless there is cultural exchange and genetic exchange, true integration never occurs. Hindus and Muslims can live in one city. That does not mean they are living together. They simply live in their own streets and zip codes.

 

[cricketjoshila]

British media publish all sorts of stuff if you want to search hard enough for it. There will probably be surveys of white people who left Wembley and Southall because they couldn't stand the smell of curries cooking wafting from down the street.

Your hindutva sources which inform you of Muslim invaders and forceful conversions probably conveniently leave out the bits about low castes getting boiling oil poured into their ears if they stepped out of line, or hindu women forced to jump onto their husbands funeral pyre when they died.

Se? It's easy to play that game. Tell history how it was if you want to go down that road.

Well take your problem to the British media then. I can only read and post what has been published.

Low castes high castes medium castes are not invading foreigners. Its good that in India we are removing the names of cities, streets, places named after invading British or muslim invaders. Such tyrants have no place of honour in our history.

You can keep glorifying invaders in your country, thats your problem.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Well take your problem to the British media then. I can only read and post what has been published.

Low castes high castes medium castes are not invading foreigners. Its good that in India we are removing the names of cities, streets, places named after invading British or muslim invaders. Such tyrants have no place of honour in our history.

You can keep glorifying invaders in your country, thats your problem.

You can remove all the street names you want, you won't be able to remove the British legacy which is our language. Indians are willingly adopting British culture as well through fashion and entertainment (Hollywood culture is also British in reality) so after the hard power is coming soft power invasion. Enjoy and appreciate, it will bring more good than bad.

 

[PakLFC]

Hopefully soon in india people grow up and give up religion and live like humans.

Religion in the region called India today has been around since time began. No chance of them giving up anything here.

 

[guna]

Religion in the region called India today has been around since time began. No chance of them giving up anything here.

Indians have no choice. It has yielded them nothing other than misery. Time to adopt modern science and humanism as highest morals. Harping about what Indians did thousands of years ago and trying to emulate it is total waste of time. World has changed and it is changing rapidly every day. Adopt or perish.

 

[PakLFC]

Indians have no choice. It has yielded them nothing other than misery. Time to adopt modern science and humanism as highest morals. Harping about what Indians did thousands of years ago and trying to emulate it is total waste of time. World has changed and it is changing rapidly every day. Adopt or perish.

Religion is always a choice or at least it should be. If not then what makes you think the will abandon something that is centuries old? Any religion propagates human values more then anything else. Even if they became humanists it would not transform India in to anything more then what it currently is. Well the fact is ace that Indian's have been following some religion since time began so stop dreaming that it's gonna change. World has changed? We are still eating, breathing, fighting, walking, running and making kid's. Religion is as old as these things.

 

[mustang]

Giving up strong religious structure is good for ALL countries. It is interesting to see a "self proclaimed defender of Islam" advocating for others to give up religion. But I will bite and play along for a minute here ...

Religion in the region called India today has been around since time began. No chance of them giving up anything here.

What are your thoughts about the effects of religion in Pakistan in comparison with India?

Indians have no choice. It has yielded them nothing other than misery. Time to adopt modern science and humanism as highest morals. Harping about what Indians did thousands of years ago and trying to emulate it is total waste of time. World has changed and it is changing rapidly every day. Adopt or perish.

Have Pakistanis excluded religion and adopted science/humanism in their society? If so then that is impressive. Please share those data points for the rest of us.

 

[mustang]

You would have to been googling pretty hard to come across those stories. White people move out if they get Sikhs or hindus moving next door, that's how you end up with large Indian communities in places like Leicester or Wembley. If the whites didn't move out, how could the hindus move in?

Yo don't live here, so you have no idea how it works. How would a white person know if their neighbour is hindu or Muslim? Just because you practice segregation in India, don't assume the most successful nations do it. That's why the UK looks like it does, and India looks like Pakistan.

Man this is such a silly comment without any thought process. By this logic most participants in this forum cannot comment on topics because they do not live there. I see you harp on in every thread here involving India (including this thread) even though you claim to be living in the UK. That's ok then?

British media publish all sorts of stuff if you want to search hard enough for it. There will probably be surveys of white people who left Wembley and Southall because they couldn't stand the smell of curries cooking wafting from down the street.

Your hindutva sources which inform you of Muslim invaders and forceful conversions probably conveniently leave out the bits about low castes getting boiling oil poured into their ears if they stepped out of line, or hindu women forced to jump onto their husbands funeral pyre when they died.

Se? It's easy to play that game. Tell history how it was if you want to go down that road.

Same logic with this very article posted by the OP right? Media publishes all kinds of articles around the world. Dig deep enough and we can find something that fits our personal bias/narrative. Somehow OP's article fits a discussion for you while a rebuttal with an opposing logic does not merit discussion?

See? It is easy to play that game against you as well.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

This map is relevant as ever:

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Well i am not claiming anything about the white British, i only posted what British media outlets published.

Golden era of art architecture culture? Lol.

They were invaders who looted. Were involved in breaking and looting religious places, forceful conversions, exploitation on many other things.

Well I think your end comment basically explains the hindu mentality from the OP.

You see your compatriots as looters and theives despite having lived together for 100s of years and seek to deny a glorious shared history on the bases of religious bias.

Its an anonymous forum, just be brave enough to say you dont like muslims instead of finding random UK arguments to explain something happening 1000s of miles away.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Still failed to integrate into the Indian society. Unless there is cultural exchange and genetic exchange, true integration never occurs. Hindus and Muslims can live in one city. That does not mean they are living together. They simply live in their own streets and zip codes.

They dont need to integrate into Indian society. They are part of it for many 100s of years.

 

[mustang]

The sale of two properties to Muslims in a middle-class neighbourhood in Uttar Pradesh’s Moradabad has riled residents of the area who have put up posters declaring their houses are up for sale and threatening an exodus.

Posters saying “Samuhik palayan. Yeh makaan bikau hai. Sampark karen. (Collective exit. This property is for sale. Please contact)” were put up at almost every door of Shiv Mandir Colony in the city’s Lajpat Nagar area, the Indian Express reported, even as the district administration suggested a property issue was at the heart of the matter.

A businessman whose family has been living in the area for the past 40 years said there was a “mutual understanding” that Muslims would live in “their areas and we will live in ours”. He added that the presence of the community would “spoil the atmosphere” as they would do “qurbaani during their festivals”.

Both these properties, located at two separate entry points of the small neighbourhood, were found locked, the report said.

As part of their protest, the residents gather every day at the Shiv temple in their colony. They also claim that “protecting” the temple is also driving this protest.

District Magistrate Shailendra Kumar Singh, who visited the locality with the Moradabad SSP, has said the issue erupted as some residents wanted to buy those two properties and were irate when they came to know they had been sold off.

“Some people are deliberately trying to disturb communal harmony over this issue through social media. Legal action will be taken against such people,” police said in a statement, adding that people are free to live anywhere.

One of the new owners, who did not want to be named, said he did not expect a protest. He said both the buyer and seller were happy with the transaction and hinted that politics could be behind the protest.

https://www.news18.com/news/india/a...odus-as-2-houses-sold-to-muslims-4048652.html

This incident by itself is sad and is an abomination.

The hypocrisy/irony of some of the Pakistan based posters in this thread is astounding for me.

1. Fact is that discrimination exists in all societies.
2. You google enough then you can find any article that fits your personal bias. That does not mean you can paint something with a broad brush to justify your biases. Can I conclude that every white person in the US cannot live next to a colored household just because I see an article in Alabama or Arkansas? That would be stupid.
3. Pakistani posters here cherry picking one article and attempting to paint a "Mona Lisa" with your broad brush strokes - do not be annoyed when others generalize negative things about Pakistan in a similar manner.
4. To the poster with a signature saying "Defender of Islam" clamoring for countries/religions to be too religious - you deserve an olympic gold for hypocrisy.
5. To the poster saying someone should not comment/express opinion when she/he does not live in that country (watch out for this person's typical comebacks as "taken out of context", "I'm a true Brit" etc etc) - you deserve an olympic gold for lack of self awareness.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

^ This is the source of above map: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/least-racist-countries

One of the main reasons why ancient India was so easily conquered by foreigners was their segregation within different territories, castes, tribes or clans. It is a very unique and fascinating case study.

There are so many historical battles where hardcore Hindu Maharajas sided with invaders and were decisive.

Even in our era, I remember someone killed a kid in a remote town in deep India just because he was riding a horse. It was a caste-hate crime. These kind of incidents make one humble and appreciate kind of life we live.

 

[mustang]

^ This is the source of above map: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/least-racist-countries

One of the main reasons why ancient India was so easily conquered by foreigners was their segregation within different territories, castes, tribes or clans. It is a very unique and fascinating case study.

There are so many historical battles where hardcore Hindu Maharajas sided with invaders and were decisive.

Even in our era, I remember someone killed a kid in a remote town in deep India just because he was riding a horse. It was a caste-hate crime. These kind of incidents make one humble and appreciate kind of life we live.

This is a fantastic map, thank you for sharing.

During my two years in India I had some of my friends from stateside visit me. One of them is afro-cuban and it was interesting to see the difference in treatment by the local people between my white friend and my afro-cuban friend. Northern India was much worse in skin color based racism in this than southern India based on our experience.

This being said, I do hope you are aware that racism and religious fanaticism/religious prejudice are very different entities (both bad of course). Incidents like OP's news article are religious prejudices and not racism per se.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

This is a fantastic map, thank you for sharing.

During my two years in India I had some of my friends from stateside visit me. One of them is afro-cuban and it was interesting to see the difference in treatment by the local people between my white friend and my afro-cuban friend. Northern India was much worse in skin color based racism in this than southern India based on our experience.

This being said, I do hope you are aware that racism and religious fanaticism/religious prejudice are very different entities (both bad of course). Incidents like OP's news article are religious prejudices and not racism per se.

True.

Although I do believe Religious extremism, Racism, Casteism and even Tribalism are all well connected and similar kind of hateful emotions within people drive them.

There were these prejudices in Europe but as they have improved their economy/life, they have moved on.

Unfortunately, we still might see this crap for a while in poorer regions.

 

[KingKhanWC]

This incident by itself is sad and is an abomination.

The hypocrisy/irony of some of the Pakistan based posters in this thread is astounding for me.

1. Fact is that discrimination exists in all societies.
2. You google enough then you can find any article that fits your personal bias. That does not mean you can paint something with a broad brush to justify your biases. Can I conclude that every white person in the US cannot live next to a colored household just because I see an article in Alabama or Arkansas? That would be stupid.
3. Pakistani posters here cherry picking one article and attempting to paint a "Mona Lisa" with your broad brush strokes - do not be annoyed when others generalize negative things about Pakistan in a similar manner.
4. To the poster with a signature saying "Defender of Islam" clamoring for countries/religions to be too religious - you deserve an olympic gold for hypocrisy.
5. To the poster saying someone should not comment/express opinion when she/he does not live in that country (watch out for this person's typical comebacks as "taken out of context", "I'm a true Brit" etc etc) - you deserve an olympic gold for lack of self awareness.

India is run by Hindutva extremists who are like a virus, contagious to other Hindu's who are extreme in nature. Not many nations vote in extremist governments, India, Israel and America are the ones that come to mind. No suprise these 3 are also occupiers, war criminals and state terrorist. Their soldiers who choose to fight for them also have the extremist mindset & are terrorists as they are known to kill innocents on purpose.

In the end it will ruin India, as we can see but Hindu extremists will be happy if India is in gutter but as long as their ilk are in power.

 

[KingKhanWC]

True.

Although I do believe Religious extremism, Racism, Casteism and even Tribalism are all well connected and similar kind of hateful emotions within people drive them.

There were these prejudices in Europe but as they have improved their economy/life, they have moved on.

Unfortunately, we still might see this crap for a while in poorer regions.

Some posters cant see the trees through the woods. India is run by extremists, this is the difference.

 

[mustang]

True.

Although I do believe Religious extremism, Racism, Casteism and even Tribalism are all well connected and similar kind of hateful emotions within people drive them.

There were these prejudices in Europe but as they have improved their economy/life, they have moved on.

Unfortunately, we still might see this crap for a while in poorer regions.

Yeah man, so true. Sadly we are seeing a resurgence of prejudice even in the so called richer/developed parts of the world these days (Brexit crew in UK and Trumpers in the US).

I do agree about all similar hateful emotions driving people in such cases. If we include all of these factors (not just racism) then majority of the poorer part of the world (as you rightfully point out) will be red. Also - a map showing ONE of these factors (racism) may not be a strong relevance for a discussion involving religious extremism right?

This being said, I would love to see a world map with varying scales for racism, religious fanaticism, colorism, casteism etc. It will be interesting to see which parts of the world dictates what kind of prejudice. I think end of the day humans having a group mentality as in no matter what they will try to find a common sub-group to diss on other members. This hatred can be suppressed/masked when resources are plentiful and it is more open when resources become scarce.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

If anything, it only strengthens Jinnah’s demand for an independent Muslim state. The Congress has long argued that Hindus and Muslims can live in the same country without any trouble, but the BJP seems determined to prove the All India Muslim League right.

Congress was always soft Hindutva in the eyes of most Muslims. Their is a reason the Muslim League won almost all the Muslim seats in the 1946 election. So it was Congress not BJP which proved the All India Muslim League right.

Had BJP been in power instead of Congress, the minority of Muslims who opposed the Muslim League would have also supported Jinnah then.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

True.

Although I do believe Religious extremism, Racism, Casteism and even Tribalism are all well connected and similar kind of hateful emotions within people drive them.

There were these prejudices in Europe but as they have improved their economy/life, they have moved on.

Unfortunately, we still might see this crap for a while in poorer regions.

Tribalism is dead in Europe? You think Europeans want to be a minority in Europe? Even the most liberal European wont want that to happen. It does not matter how rich Europe is, how educated it is, how liberal it is, Europeans would never want that to happen.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

This incident by itself is sad and is an abomination.

The hypocrisy/irony of some of the Pakistan based posters in this thread is astounding for me.

1. Fact is that discrimination exists in all societies. .

In India elected politicians from BJP openly trash Muslims. This is not a fringe. Prejudice exists everywhere, however these politicians would not win by a landslide, if a large number of people in India did not feel prejudiced towards Muslims. They are directly responsible for this hate growing.

Their is prejudice towards Hindus in Pakistan, however none of the 3 major political parties in Pakistan is creating hatred based on religion. They have been working on removing the prejudice that exists in Pakistani society.

That is the difference. One country is trying to improve, the other is going in the other direction.

 

[PakLFC]

Giving up strong religious structure is good for ALL countries. It is interesting to see a "self proclaimed defender of Islam" advocating for others to give up religion. But I will bite and play along for a minute here ...



What are your thoughts about the effects of religion in Pakistan in comparison with India?



Have Pakistanis excluded religion and adopted science/humanism in their society? If so then that is impressive. Please share those data points for the rest of us.

Religion is never the problem but believers are. It is a double edged sword that can bring the best and worst out of people. In Pak religion is used for political gain not spiritual enlightenment. The subcontinent would still be a mess even without any religion or one religion for all.

 

[PakLFC]

Giving up strong religious structure is good for ALL countries. It is interesting to see a "self proclaimed defender of Islam" advocating for others to give up religion. But I will bite and play along for a minute here ...



What are your thoughts about the effects of religion in Pakistan in comparison with India?



Have Pakistanis excluded religion and adopted science/humanism in their society? If so then that is impressive. Please share those data points for the rest of us.

What you talking about? I am saying that religion does not propagate violence, that even without any religion the world will have the same problems. Where did I say give religion up or become humanists or atheists? Read again or see an optician.

 

[mustang]

In India elected politicians from BJP openly trash Muslims. This is not a fringe. Prejudice exists everywhere, however these politicians would not win by a landslide, if a large number of people in India did not feel prejudiced towards Muslims. They are directly responsible for this hate growing.

Their is prejudice towards Hindus in Pakistan, however none of the 3 major political parties in Pakistan is creating hatred based on religion. They have been working on removing the prejudice that exists in Pakistani society.

That is the difference. One country is trying to improve, the other is going in the other direction.

The Ahmediyas, Shias, minority undergoing forced conversions, minority women getting abducted, blasphemy laws -- all say hello.

All of South Asia is a messed up space with established religious fanaticism and perceived grievances from centuries of conflicts. This is the truth.

#1 - India now has social discrimination against muslims.

#2 - Pakistan has been having legal and constitutional discrimination against Christians and Hindus besides the social discriminations.

For a society to function without any issues the legal/constitutional component is the base of the pyramid without which the eventual social change will never happen. Pakistan does not even have the legal equality in place let alone the social equality. So in an absolute scale Pakistan is at a lower level than India. Just because there is some perceived recent progress does not mean there should suddenly be a "holier than thou" thinking if I can be candid.

 

[guna]

They dont need to integrate into Indian society. They are part of it for many 100s of years.

Being part of society does not mean they are integrated. Muslims do not live with people of other religions. They stick together forming ghettos. Many hardly ever communicate with non- Muslims and even if they do, it is strictly for business purposes.
It’s a shame that both Hindus and Muslims are genetically the same and they look the same without the religious attire. But the divide is very deep rooted.

 

[Varun]

Bimaru gonna Bimaru.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Well I think your end comment basically explains the hindu mentality from the OP.

You see your compatriots as looters and theives despite having lived together for 100s of years and seek to deny a glorious shared history on the bases of religious bias.

Its an anonymous forum, just be brave enough to say you dont like muslims instead of finding random UK arguments to explain something happening 1000s of miles away.

I see invaders as looters and thieves. Not Muslims. I see British as looters not christians.

I have never seen a Christian saying calling brit colonials as looters is offensive to him.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Man this is such a silly comment without any thought process. By this logic most participants in this forum cannot comment on topics because they do not live there. I see you harp on in every thread here involving India (including this thread) even though you claim to be living in the UK. That's ok then?



Same logic with this very article posted by the OP right? Media publishes all kinds of articles around the world. Dig deep enough and we can find something that fits our personal bias/narrative. Somehow OP's article fits a discussion for you while a rebuttal with an opposing logic does not merit discussion?

See? It is easy to play that game against you as well.

This thread is about India. If you want to compare Indian prejudice against Muslims vs British then I am happy to do so. Is that where you want to go?

 

[Hitman]

I see invaders as looters and thieves. Not Muslims. I see British as looters not christians.

I have never seen a Christian saying calling brit colonials as looters is offensive to him.

Standardless looters and thieves.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Man this is such a silly comment without any thought process. By this logic most participants in this forum cannot comment on topics because they do not live there. I see you harp on in every thread here involving India (including this thread) even though you claim to be living in the UK. That's ok then?



Same logic with this very article posted by the OP right? Media publishes all kinds of articles around the world. Dig deep enough and we can find something that fits our personal bias/narrative. Somehow OP's article fits a discussion for you while a rebuttal with an opposing logic does not merit discussion?

See? It is easy to play that game against you as well.

The poster I was replying to was under the impression that white flight is only due to Muslims moving into their neighbourhood. He obviously doesn't know much about the reality at ground level so I pointed that out, why is that a silly comment? Indians are not well regarded by whites either, that's why you rarely see them on popular entertainment channels unless they are reading the news or someone's girlfriend/wife. That is despite their successful integration compared to Muslims. White people tolerate Indians, they don't admire them.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I see invaders as looters and thieves. Not Muslims. I see British as looters not christians.

I have never seen a Christian saying calling brit colonials as looters is offensive to him.

Again, no need to dance. Your views are clear. Muslims are looters despite being the very fabric that historically kept your country together but when hindus killed and looted each other I guess its ok?

Sad to see this kind of bias exist but not unexpected.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Standardless looters and thieves.

When one Hindu dynasty displayed another were they also standardless?

 

[mustang]

This thread is about India. If you want to compare Indian prejudice against Muslims vs British then I am happy to do so. Is that where you want to go?

It is obvious that some Indians do have prejudice against muslims and it is also obvious to any reasonable person that it is intolerable.

This is unrelated to your blanket (and pointless) comment that a person has to live in UK in order to comment or pass judgements. By that token many people here make sweeping statements about US/Israel/India/UK/Pakistan. Are you going around asking everyone if they live in the said countries in the threads you involve yourself into? Obviously no because that is a nonsensical way to approach a debate because it questions your own sweeping generalizations. If their judgement is wrong just call it out and move on - as normal people do.

 

[MP2011]

Bisht has irrevocably destroyed UP during last 4 years like his master did at much bigger level.

All this bigotry stems from that. Every other person is now emboldened to indulge in whatever they want because of state's protection for them.

 

[mustang]

The poster I was replying to was under the impression that white flight is only due to Muslims moving into their neighbourhood. He obviously doesn't know much about the reality at ground level so I pointed that out, why is that a silly comment? Indians are not well regarded by whites either, that's why you rarely see them on popular entertainment channels unless they are reading the news or someone's girlfriend/wife. That is despite their successful integration compared to Muslims. White people tolerate Indians, they don't admire them.

Some white people cannot tolerate any people of color as their neighbors (Pakistanis or Indians or Blacks or Hispanics or Asians) regardless of how well represented they are in whichever field. Not sure if the poster said ALL white flight was due to muslims moving in but if he did then that is inaccurate.

I think there could be a higher percentage of white people not being ok with a muslim neighbor in the current environment in the US and it could be because of the following reasons

1. Such people are usually in the conservative bastions

2. You may see more non-muslim people of color in the conservative political fold (Dinesh D'Souza, Bobby Jindal types in the US) as opposed to muslim people of color among the conservative side thanks to the current post-911 geo-politics. A muslim POC who is a political conservative in a western country will be a near non-existent group in the current world in terms of numbers. Think about it - which reasonable muslim in today's world will support any of the conservative political leaders who support Israel, have bias against Arab/muslim immigrants etc. But some Hindus/Christians/Buddhists/Sikhs in the west do share beliefs with such conservative political leaders.

3. You may find some of these political conservatives to not be racist against all POC (muslim or not) and be ok with POC who align with their conservative political outlook.

As a result of #2 and #3 above you could find bit of a higher rate (not a huge difference mind you) of white flight against muslims. This is merely a function of current politics and demographic numbers.

As I mentioned in another thread a while ago, for the average racist white home owner in deep south Alabama or Mississippi (think whichever equivalent place in UK), we are all just "N!gg*rs" (pardon the use of this word) and are not deserving enough to be near them. People claiming cheap scoring points about Pakistanis being fairer skinned than Indians etc (in other threads) are mired in pointless and nonsensical semantics ... and I know this point is a bit of a digression to this thread but holistically it makes sense when we (Indians or Pakistanis) try to measure something through the white man's yard stick.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It is obvious that some Indians do have prejudice against muslims and it is also obvious to any reasonable person that it is intolerable.

This is unrelated to your blanket (and pointless) comment that a person has to live in UK in order to comment or pass judgements. By that token many people here make sweeping statements about US/Israel/India/UK/Pakistan. Are you going around asking everyone if they live in the said countries in the threads you involve yourself into? Obviously no because that is a nonsensical way to approach a debate because it questions your own sweeping generalizations. If their judgement is wrong just call it out and move on - as normal people do.

This is what I did, this discussion is only continuing because you objected to it. Personally I think it would be better to open a separate thread if you want to discuss white flight and what causes it. There are already threads more than likely.

 

[mustang]

This is what I did, this discussion is only continuing because you objected to it. Personally I think it would be better to open a separate thread if you want to discuss white flight and what causes it. There are already threads more than likely.

My earlier point (#57) is still relevant here because we are talking about higher white flight in the context of muslim neighbors. You had mentioned that may not be true and my point is that it is that it could be true after all (albeit to a smaller degree) but not for the reasons that some Indians may tend to believe (white approval = good, thought process).

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

My earlier point (#57) is still relevant here because we are talking about higher white flight in the context of muslim neighbors. You had mentioned that may not be true and my point is that it is that it could be true after all (albeit to a smaller degree) but not for the reasons that some Indians may tend to believe (white approval = good, thought process).

I think we need to ask ourselves, why are we even talking about white flight in a thread about Moradabad in UP India. Is it because the poster who introduced that angle believes that Muslims in general are problem neighbours?

" Hey look! It's not just hindus in India, white people don't like them either!"

 

[mustang]

I think we need to ask ourselves, why are we even talking about white flight in a thread about Moradabad in UP India. Is it because the poster who introduced that angle believes that Muslims in general are problem neighbours?

" Hey look! It's not just hindus in India, white people don't like them either!"

Or to possibly show that such things happen in all parts of the world and that such random articles cannot be used to generalize the entire region.

You would not see anyone (including yourself) make statements like "Is it like this all over UK?" if/when someone posts links showing housing discrimination in UK since that is a bad extrapolation, yet you can find posts here with deliberate ridiculous questions like "is it like this all over India?" in this thread. Easy to discern the obvious double standards here.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Or to possibly show that such things happen in all parts of the world and that such random articles cannot be used to generalize the entire region.

You would not see anyone (including yourself) make statements like "Is it like this all over UK?" if/when someone posts links showing housing discrimination in UK since that is a bad extrapolation, yet you can find posts here with deliberate ridiculous questions like "is it like this all over India?" in this thread. Easy to discern the obvious double standards here.

The UK isn't led by a party which derives it's roots from religious discrimination. Therefore I think my question was understandable. Is it like this all over India? I don't know since I don't live there. All I see is statements coming from your govt ministers.

If it's not like that, the poster in question could quite easily have just replied no it isn't. Instead he tried to justify it by showing false equivalences with UK which I am happy to clarify if you wish.

 

[mustang]

The UK isn't led by a party which derives it's roots from religious discrimination. Therefore I think my question was understandable. Is it like this all over India? I don't know since I don't live there. All I see is statements coming from your govt ministers.

If it's not like that, the poster in question could quite easily have just replied no it isn't. Instead he tried to justify it by showing false equivalences with UK which I am happy to clarify if you wish.

India is not my country/govt in case you meant "your govt ministers" personally directed towards me.

UK is now led by Tories whom I believe forced the Brexit koolaid through their anti-immigrant discrimination fueled policies. In that context I do believe sharing corner cases of similar discrimination against neighbors is valid and helps for an apples-apples comparison of "see how you cannot generalize all of UK in spite of such articles and discriminatory governance in UK? You cannot do that for other countries as well".

Your mentioning of ruling party of a country is in any case irrelevant here because we are talking about social discrimination and not policy level or legal discrimination.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

India is not my country/govt in case you meant "your govt ministers" personally directed towards me.

UK is now led by Tories whom I believe forced the Brexit koolaid through their anti-immigrant discrimination fueled policies. In that context I do believe sharing corner cases of similar discrimination against neighbors is valid and helps for an apples-apples comparison of "see how you cannot generalize all of UK in spite of such articles and discriminatory governance in UK? You cannot do that for other countries as well".

Your mentioning of ruling party of a country is in any case irrelevant here because we are talking about social discrimination and not policy level or legal discrimination.

The UK govt did indulge the Brexit movement, but that was because they thought there was no chance of it going through. David Cameron the leader of the party resigned when he found out that Brexit had won. There are racists here, just like any country, but you would never get mob lynchings while police stood by like you get in India. Neither do you get areas which refuse to sell to Muslims like you do in parts of India. I believe even your superstars like Shabana Azmi complained about this.

 

[street cricketer]

So there was a "protest" held in the middle of the national capital recently. I don't know hindi, but going by the translations available on social media, apparently the "protesters" openly chanted slogans calling for mass murder of muslims.

It's why I keep saying unless people recognise the radicalisation of hindus as a real issue and drop the constant hatred and bigoted attitude against muslims, India is going to go down the dumps.

 

[mustang]

So there was a "protest" held in the middle of the national capital recently. I don't know hindi, but going by the translations available on social media, apparently the "protesters" openly chanted slogans calling for mass murder of muslims.

It's why I keep saying unless people recognise the radicalisation of hindus as a real issue and drop the constant hatred and bigoted attitude against muslims, India is going to go down the dumps.

That is seriously disgusting behavior by the radical Hindus in India. At this rate India could get into a cruise control to becoming the hindu version of Afghanistan.

You say you do not know Hindi does that mean you are from the South or the North East? If yes, are those parts of India as much radicalized with right wing hinduism as the northern parts of India?

 

[street cricketer]

That is seriously disgusting behavior by the radical Hindus in India. At this rate India could get into a cruise control to becoming the hindu version of Afghanistan.

You say you do not know Hindi does that mean you are from the South or the North East? If yes, are those parts of India as much radicalized with right wing hinduism as the northern parts of India?

I'm from the south and I don't really want to do the north-south thing as a lot of Indians tend to hate it. But if I'm being honest, north India and south India have always felt like different countries to me in not just the way people dress, the food they eat or the languages they speak, but even the attitudes and thinking on different issues. Religious polarisation is not at all huge in south India as it is in north India. People here in general are less religious on average. Even among the hindus, saying slogans like "Jai Sree Ram" or "Ganapati bappa morya" are alien concepts here, doesn't mean people don't worship these deities here, it's just that the sloganeering bit is not a concept here. People just worship in temples and don't tend to wear the religion on their sleeve by way of slogans and chants. It's why even in cricket matches when I hear chants like "Ganapati bappa morya", etc., I find it really weird. The caste divide probably plays a bigger role here than religious polarisation and there are some political parties that are based on caste lines but political parties rarely talk about hindu-muslim divide here.

I think to understand the religious polarisation in the north, you have to go back in history. North India was under muslim rule for a long time and it was not the best of times for the hindus living there. Muslim rule also happened in south India but not as extensively or for as long periods like north India and most of south India was ruled by indigenous dynasties - one of the reasons why a lot of people don't understand hindi/urdu here except areas like Telengana which was ruled by the muslim rulers. After the Mughal dynasty got finished and a bit later the Brits came, the hindus who previously were under the muslim rule were not anymore under the muslim rulers, and the suppressed vengeance caused friction between the hindu and muslim communities which resulted in a lot of riots and ultimately ended in the gory partition violence that happened in Punjab and Bengal. All these either didn't happen or was relatively very low in the south due to the factors said above.

I think that is also when even the sloganeering bit developed with the hindus of the north. Religious sloganeering is pretty common among muslims and you can often hear Pakistanis or muslims in general saying the nara-e-takbeer followed by Allahu Akbar chants in crowds. Using religious terminologies like "Inshaallah", "Mashaallah", "Alhamdulillah", etc., are common in day to day conversations of muslims and I think that's how the hindus in north India developed their own sloganeering to counter that. I've read accounts of hindus and muslims engaging in a sloganeering battle with each other during public speeches by independence leaders like Gandhi and Jinnah in British India. And the polarisation that existed then between hindus and muslims during colonial India manifested as partition violence and exists till date in those regions while south India was largely sheltered from all this violence which is why if you aren't from the south, sometimes visiting south India might feel like visiting a different country in terms of language spoken, cuisine, culture and even attitudes on different issues.

 

[MP2011]

Mob Beats Muslim Bangle Seller In Indore, Minister Says Used Fake Name

Bhopal: A 25-year-old man selling bangles was mercilessly beaten in full public view by a group of men, who also allegedly took away ₹ 10,000 that he was carrying in Madhya Pradesh's Indore on Sunday. A police case was registered late at night reportedly after hundreds of people gathered outside the police station demanding action against the accused.

State Home Minister Narottam Mishra, quoting a police investigation, said that the victim was attacked after people realised that he was using a fake name to run his business. "This (incident) shouldn't be given a communal colour," he said.

In the video of the incident that has been circulating on social media, the victim, identified as Tasleem, is seen being beaten up by a group of men in a crowded street in Banganga area in Indore. The unidentified men are heard using communal slurs at him as people around him watch - none of them interfere to help the victim.

"Take whatever you want. He should not be seen in this area anymore," a man is heard saying as he takes out bangles from the bag. The man also asks the public to come forward and thrash the victim, who is seen being pulled up by his t-shirt by a man from behind.

Later, three to four men come forward and mercilessly thrash him.

"The accused first asked my name and started beating once I revealed it. They also robbed the ₹ 10,000 that I was carrying and vandalised bangles and other material that I had," the victim said in his complaint to the police.

A case of rioting, assault, robbery, intimidation and trying to disturb communal harmony has been filed against the unidentified men.

Asked about the incident, state Home Minister Narottam Mishra said: "This shouldn't be given a communal colour. If a man hides his name, caste and religion then bitterness comes in. Our daughters wear bangles and apply henna during sawan (monsoon). He had come as a bangle seller, there was confusion and truth came out after seeing his ID".

The police have appealed to the people not to react to the social media posts on the incident.

"We would like to urge people not to react to social media posts that are communal nature. We are also keeping a watch on such social media posts. Stringent action will be taken against them," said Ashutosh Bagri, a senior police officer in Indore East police station.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/mob...d-fake-name-2516492#pfrom=home-ndtv_topscroll

 

[MP2011]

Another day, another instance of outright bigotry from sanghis!

So as per this sanghi (home minister of the province, no less!), beating that guy was ok since he hid his name, caste, religion!

Well done. You are moving on to right path shown by your master!

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-58406194

Unprovoked attacks on Muslims by Hindu mobs have become routine in India, but they seem to evoke little condemnation from the government.

Last month, a video that went viral on social media showed a terrified little girl clinging to her Muslim father as a Hindu mob assaulted him.

The distressing footage showed the 45-year-old rickshaw driver being paraded through the streets of Kanpur, a city in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh, as his crying daughter begged the mob to stop hitting him.

His attackers asked him to chant "Hindustan Zindabad" or "Long Live India" and "Jai Shri Ram" or "Victory to Lord Ram" - a popular greeting that's been turned into a murder cry by Hindu lynch mobs in recent years.

He complied, but the mob still kept hitting him. The man and his daughter were eventually rescued by the police. Three men arrested for the attack were freed on bail a day later.

A few days later, another viral video surfaced showing a Muslim bangle-seller being slapped, kicked and punched by a Hindu mob in Indore, a city in the central state of Madhya Pradesh. The attackers could be heard abusing Tasleem Ali and telling him to stay away from Hindu areas in future.

In a police complaint, he later alleged that he had been "beaten by five-six men who hurled communal slurs at him for selling bangles in a Hindu-dominated area and robbed him of money, his phone and some documents".

But in a strange turn of events, Ali himself was arrested the next day after the 13-year-old daughter of one of his alleged attackers accused him of molesting her. His family and neighbours have strongly denied the accusation. They said it was inconceivable that the father of five would do something like that.

And eyewitnesses, quoted in the Indian press, said he was attacked because of his religious identity and the molestation accusation against him seemed to be an afterthought.

The two attacks were among several instances of anti-Muslim violence in August, but the last month by no means was cruellest for India's biggest religious minority group, with a population of more than 200 million.

Similar attacks were reported in the preceding months too - and many made headlines.

• In March, a 14-year-old Muslim boy who had entered a Hindu temple to drink water was violently assaulted
• In June, a vendor was beaten up in Delhi for trying to sell fruit in a Hindu locality

"The violence is overwhelming. It's rampant and common and also very acceptable," says Alishan Jafri, a freelance journalist who's been documenting attacks on Indian Muslims for the past three years.

He says he comes across "three-four such videos every day" but is able to verify only one or two which he then shares on social media.

Religious faultlines have existed in India for a long time but, critics say, anti-Muslim violence has risen since 2014 under the Hindu nationalist government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

"Communal violence is not a recent phenomenon, but it grows in sync with the strategies of those in power and political mobilisation," Prof Tanvir Aeijaz, who teaches politics science at Delhi University, told the BBC.

"The distrust was always there but cleavages have been sharpened now by religious nationalism and ethno-nationalism."

During Mr Modi's first term in power, there were numerous incidents of Muslims being attacked by so-called "cow vigilantes" over rumours that they had eaten beef, or that they were trying to smuggle cows - an animal many Hindus consider holy - for slaughter.

The prime minister did not condone such attacks, but was criticised for not condemning them quickly or strongly enough either.

Prakash Javadekar, a senior BJP leader, told the BBC that "the government believes that lynching is bad, wherever it happens. But law and order is a state subject and it is their responsibility to deal with it".

He then went on to accuse the media of "biased and selective journalism" by focusing on attacks on Muslims.

"If you look at official data, there were 160 Hindus among the 200 people who were lynched. People of all faiths were targeted," he said, but did not give details of where the data could be found. India does not gather such data.

In 2019, a fact-checker website that counted "hate crimes" in India reported that more than 90% of victims in the past 10 years were Muslims.

And the perpetrators of the attacks remain unpunished amid accusations that they enjoy political patronage from Mr Modi's Bharatiya Janata Party after a government minister garlanded eight Hindus convicted for lynching a Muslim.

"Such attacks have become so common in our country today only and only because of the impunity these thugs enjoy," says Hasiba Amin, a social media co-ordinator for the opposition Congress party.

"Today hate has gone mainstream. It is cool to go attack Muslims. The hate mongers are also rewarded for their actions."

Critics say since Mr Modi's return to power for a second term in 2019, the anti-Muslim violence has expanded in its scope.

Sometimes, the violence is not even physical and takes a more subtle, insidious form that appears aimed at vilifying and demonising the minority community. For example:

• Last year, as Covid-19 began to take hold of India, Hindu leaders, including Mr Modi's ministers and party colleagues, accused Muslim men, who had attended a religious gathering in Delhi, of "corona jihad" by indulging in behaviour that would spread the virus
• Then followed "roti jihad" which included wild allegations that Muslim cooks were spitting on roti - handmade bread - to spread the virus to Hindus

In recent months, several states have introduced laws to curb "love jihad" - an Islamophobic term fringe Hindu groups use to imply that Muslim men prey on Hindu women to convert them to Islam through marriage.

The laws are being used to harass and jail Muslim men in interfaith relations with Hindu women. Last December, the plight of a pregnant Hindu woman, who was forcibly separated from her Muslim husband, made headlines when she suffered a miscarriage.

Muslim women haven't been spared either - in July, dozens of them found they had been put up "for sale" online. In May, many of them, including Ms Amin of the Congress party, were offered in a mock online "auction".

And last month, participants at a rally, organised by a former BJP leader in Delhi, shouted slogans calling for Muslims to be killed.

"It's a very sustained, organised campaign by nationalist politicians to radicalise Hindus into believing that Muslims need to be marginalised if Hindus are to progress," says Mr Jafri.

Prof Aeijaz says the attack on working class Muslims, such as tailors, fruit vendors, electricians, plumbers and bangle sellers, is also an attempt to take control of the political economy and jobs through religious nationalism.

"The religious divide has deepened. The distrust has deepened. But the hate is also for profit. The idea it to make Muslims the other, the enemy.

"The process of creating the other is by propagating the idea that if we don't destroy the other, we will be destroyed. So you stoke hate, create fear, and violence is part of this larger narrative."

But religious nationalism, Prof Aeijaz says, is a dangerous idea that can lead to sectarian violence.

"The buck stops with the political executive in a parliamentary democracy. How long can they look the other way?"

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-58406194

Such a sad state of affairs.