Attention all Atheist forum members

[prtikul]

They kill people because they consider some humans to be superior than others (like Hitler) or because they can do so. Their moral judgements were wrong because they didn't subscribe to better moral standards like in (most) religions.

The point is without religion one's morality CAN be dangerous. Atheism doesn't give you guidelines about Morality and then Atheists have to look elsewhere to make moral judgements. Atheists can be vegetarians, humanists, philanthropist or misanthropes. A misanthrope atheist can easily justify killing someone he doesn't like too much.

One can make an case about Mao and Stalin being misanthropes because they justified the killing of thousands by their twisted moral standards.

God cannot come out of nothing . Similarly, morality cannot come out Atheism. So there is no way you can control the choice of morality.

I have been a former nihilist and believed personally that after you become morally nihilist, you can do anything - even kill someone if no one is watching :

Well interesting point, I am also not against religions with philosophy of live and let live. Unfortunately most of the religions are intolerent . Well you don't require religion for morality, Particularly in case of Dharmic religions which are more of cultures than religions, I am culturally hindu (brahmin) but atheist by belief, in Dharmic culture belief is personal matter between individual and god.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

Its a forum so i believe theres gonna be difference of opinions.

 

[Bhaijaan]

I believe in God but not in man made religions. Count me in.




The scientists, critical thinkers etc are in a way more spiritual than the religious brigade as they are actually studying/understanding the mysterious ways in which God(?) works. If anything, science has reached more closer to God than religions. He's playing hide and seek with us leaving little clues, eventually we will get to him.

 

[shakil]

So killing people for having a different god than u or having a different interpretation of your religion is morally justifiable.Or what about killing apostates u r free to join islam but not allowed to change ur mind even if u were born to muslim parents and didnot have choice in being a muslim.Or what about beheading journalists,soldiers and bombing innocent people is that morally justifiable.

If you want to talk about Islam than it is different. I was talking generally.

As far as Islam is concerned, most Muslims are moderates. I am living in Karachi and an open apostate (Friends, Family know about it) but I am not having any problems. However, there are certain twisted interpretations of Islam (mostly in Pakistan) which aren't live-and-let-live but it is only due to Zia/Saudi funding that caused it and isn't the majority Islam.

So kindly don't bash religion. It has its place in society and has been followed since time immemorial.

Also I believe (can be wrong) that most problems with religion are more cultural than anything else. For e.g. Hindus can also torture atheists (Watch Oh my God movie) even though their religion doesn't allow this

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I believe in God but not in man made religions. Count me in.




The scientists, critical thinkers etc are in a way more spiritual than the religious brigade as they are actually studying/understanding the mysterious ways in which God(?) works. If anything, science has reached more closer to God than religions.

Good post.

 

[vandokkum]

Not sure how many atheists you are gonna find on this forum. I am agnostic so sign me up. It's funny how many atheists there are who only disclose their identity when around other atheists, it's quite clear how threatened evangelicals etc are by the rise of the non religious.

 

[TM Riddle]

alright sign me as agnostic then .

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I wouldn't sign up even though I agree with it on a lot of principles. I don't like organised religion much, but I do believe in God. This sort of thing is just another form of organised religion in my book. Except they are organised against religion. Count me out.

 

[prtikul]

One interesting thing about religions is that while many vary in how beautiful they might seem in theory, in practice people more or less have the same instincts and behave pretty much the same way. So while Islam is on the surface a far more violent religion than Buddhism, it was the Buddhists who went on the rampage and ethnically cleansed the Muslims from Burma.

Probably a good an argument I can make for secular rule than any. Most people are secular in their actions as can be seen from the above example in any case.

Very good post, It is called struggle for existence. When people see threat from other group, they unite and fight for survival. You will see that most of the muslims who are agnostic by belief will have sympathy for islamic nations which are opressed by west or kashmir issue. Similarly agnostic hindu will have sympathy for kashmiri pandits.

 

[srh]

Yes but the most horrendous acts of violence have been committed in the name of three monotheistic ones.Dont know about zoroastrianism but buddhism doesnot put emphasis on a deity and hinduism has different forms of deties for different groups.

the above bolded part shows you are pretty weak in history.

 

[shakil]

Well interesting point, I am also not against religions with philosophy of live and let live. Unfortunately most of the religions are intolerent . Well you don't require religion for morality, Particularly in case of Dharmic religions which are more of cultures than religions, I am culturally hindu (brahmin) but atheist by belief, in Dharmic culture belief is personal matter between individual and god.

Great and I am "culturally Muslim" Don't drink, no sex outside marriage etc.

To be honest, I believe that all religions and atheistic philosophies point to one and only one thing i.e. we all are avatars of God and all of us are connected in this way. Different religions emphasize different aspects of this point.

1. Hinduism is direct statement about all is one and one is all but they add deities into the mix to make it easier for people to understand.

2. (Islam) Sufism is refined and current form of Islam and if you go in depth, you find "wahdatal wajood" (all is one and one is all) and that many paths lead you to the same truth (Hazrat Moinuddin Chishti - ajmeer sharif)

3. Christianity says that we are all the children of God and God made humans in his image. In essence, it is the same thing.

4. Buddhism is also similar because of the belief in Reincarnation. But I think it is the closest to pandeism.

The reason I believe in pandeism is because of the problem of existence and because if there is a panendeistic (not pandeistic) God, he would get bored quickly because he would be able to do everything and everything would be too easy for him. Being able to accomplish something with limitation is the most satisfying thing. Therefore, I believe that the universe is God itself and ever changing (many big bangs and many many challenges with limited ability)

 

[Jo_Don]

^^ Pantheism is glorified atheism though, is it not? God is the universe, but it's a non-personal 'God'. One doesn't pray to the laws of gravity, for example.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

Opposition towards religion is based on emotion it is based on facts and reason.And many atheists like me believe in science not just for the sake of believing in something but on the fact that science has produced a better world for humanity through technology and medicine which has allowed the human population from mere millions to more than 6 billion today religion on the other hand has only provided humanity with differences to kill eachother over.

 

[prtikul]

Great and I am "culturally Muslim" Don't drink, no sex outside marriage etc.

To be honest, I believe that all religions and atheistic philosophies point to one and only one thing i.e. we all are avatars of God and all of us are connected in this way. Different religions emphasize different aspects of this point.

1. Hinduism is direct statement about all is one and one is all but they add deities into the mix to make it easier for people to understand.

2. (Islam) Sufism is refined and current form of Islam and if you go in depth, you find "wahdatal wajood" (all is one and one is all) and that many paths lead you to the same truth (Hazrat Moinuddin Chishti - ajmeer sharif)

3. Christianity says that we are all the children of God and God made humans in his image. In essence, it is the same thing.

4. Buddhism is also similar because of the belief in Reincarnation. But I think it is the closest to pandeism.

The reason I believe in pandeism is because of the problem of existence and because if there is a panendeistic (not pandeistic) God, he would get bored quickly because he would be able to do everything and everything would be too easy for him. Being able to accomplish something with limitation is the most satisfying thing. Therefore, I believe that the universe is God itself and ever changing (many big bangs and many many challenges with limited ability)

Great to know, similarly I have some muslim friends in India who are culturally muslim but agnostic by belief.
My point is that when number of free thinkers increases in any society, culture doesn't change drastically but help to make society more tolerent. But I do have fear for laws like blasphemy,even in India they similar to it.

 

[vandokkum]

I am pretty sure if there really was a God then he would not be in favor of wars, self righteousness, homophobia, intolerance of other religions, burning witches/ killing adulterers etc. Things that religions (abrahamic faiths to be more precise) have been involved in for centuries. Religion can be beautiful in theory as long as you decide to leave out the evils, but impractical at this point in time.

 

[shakil]

^^ Pantheism is glorified atheism though, is it not? God is the universe, but it's a non-personal 'God'. One doesn't pray to the laws of gravity, for example.

Yup. More of a case of terminology BUT it is more for the spiritually oriented atheists. It is crude way to look at it though

 

[James]

I believe in God but not in man made religions. Count me in.




The scientists, critical thinkers etc are in a way more spiritual than the religious brigade as they are actually studying/understanding the mysterious ways in which God(?) works. If anything, science has reached more closer to God than religions. He's playing hide and seek with us leaving little clues, eventually we will get to him.

I wouldn't sign up even though I agree with it on a lot of principles. I don't like organised religion much, but I do believe in God. This sort of thing is just another form of organised religion in my book. Except they are organised against religion. Count me out.

Two good posts. Pretty much agree on all of the points made.

 

[MattyB]

Not sure how many atheists you are gonna find on this forum. I am agnostic so sign me up. It's funny how many atheists there are who only disclose their identity when around other atheists, it's quite clear how threatened evangelicals etc are by the rise of the non religious.

It's because they foolishly seem to believe that humans get their moral codes and laws from religion and that without religions everybody would turn on each other.

 

[shakil]

Opposition towards religion is based on emotion it is based on facts and reason.And many atheists like me believe in science not just for the sake of believing in something but on the fact that science has produced a better world for humanity through technology and medicine which has allowed the human population from mere millions to more than 6 billion today religion on the other hand has only provided humanity with differences to kill eachother over.

I hated religion too when I first discovered that I had been cheated and had wasted tons of hours of my life in delusion. But then I thought that I reached there only because of being true to myself and logical (over emotional).

So I never left my search for truth and found that religion had tremendous influence on early humans and the development of science. It was the question about the nature of God that drove us into exploring the world, postulating theories and eventually experimentation. You will find most early scientists to be deeply religious and believers.

And similar to religion, Wars were fuels for science and technology. But both are redundant now

 

[vandokkum]

It's because they foolishly seem to believe that humans get their moral codes and laws from religion and that without religions everybody would turn on each other.

LOL, the irony.

 

[prtikul]

Agnosticism is a very weak theistic stance IMO. One is either atheist or theist, there is no middle ground. You either believe in Santa or you don't believe in him, you either believe in gnomes or you don't believe in them, you either believe in fairies or you don't believe in them, you either believe in God(s) or you don't believe in him/her/them.

Also, agnosticism really has no place in theism. Gnosticism means knowledge, and agnosticism means without knowledge. It's applicable to absolutely anything - one who has no knowledge of quantum mechanics is agnostic towards it.

Top post,
What are your views on state of universe before big bang or inception of time?
Detailed views on angosticism ie stance of belief in god but not in religion, is it just stratergy of play it safe or any sound logic behind it?

 

[RexRex]

It's because they foolishly seem to believe that humans get their moral codes and laws from religion and that without religions everybody would turn on each other.

Where do you get your moral codes from - the origin of species or the Selfish gene? Or maybe you get them from episodes of StarTrek.:kami

 

[prtikul]

I wouldn't sign up even though I agree with it on a lot of principles. I don't like organised religion much, but I do believe in God. This sort of thing is just another form of organised religion in my book. Except they are organised against religion. Count me out.

Atheist group doesn't necessarily mean that we are having war against religions. As I have mentioned in the above posts that increased number free thinkers does not change culture drastically but only helps to make society more tolerent.
As USA and UK have more number of free thinkers, as a result they have more tolerence towards minorities.

 

[Robert]

I have nothing but respect for Uk for giving humanity jewels like Newton(According to me greatest scientist of all time for contribution in physics and calculus), Charles Darwin(Man who killed God).

Ta for this.

I wouldn't say that Darwin killed God - he was deeply Christian - but he made it impossible for an open-minded person of intellectual rigour to accept the various Abrahamic creation myths as literal truth.

BTW I signed up as agnostic, because I cannot prove that there is no God. I'm agnostic with respect to nearly everything, actually.

 

[MattyB]

Where do you get your moral codes from - the origin of species or the Selfish gene? Or maybe you get them from episodes of StarTrek.:kami

I get my moral codes from my environment. I don't need a book or a religious leader to tell me that stealing is wrong..

 

[vandokkum]

Cool!

I wouldn't say that Darwin killed God - he was deeply Christian - but he made it impossible for an open-minded person of intellectual rigour to accept the various Abrahamic creation myths as literal truth.

Are you a Christian? It seems like most Muslims take scripture as literal truth, while Christians (in the west) seem to have understood that these are ancient books written by people who had a very different understanding of the world than we do today. I have yet to read any "holy books" without finding comments that are disgusting/ irrational if taken at face value and actually put in practice.

 

[vandokkum]

I get my moral codes from my environment. I don't need a book or a religious leader to tell me that stealing is wrong..

What some religious people might consider moral, as a human I find extremely offensive. Countries with majority non religious populations are doing just fine, considering they don't have any morals.

 

[prtikul]

I hated religion too when I first discovered that I had been cheated and had wasted tons of hours of my life in delusion. But then I thought that I reached there only because of being true to myself and logical (over emotional).

So I never left my search for truth and found that religion had tremendous influence on early humans and the development of science. It was the question about the nature of God that drove us into exploring the world, postulating theories and eventually experimentation. You will find most early scientists to be deeply religious and believers.

And similar to religion, Wars were fuels for science and technology. But both are redundant now

Yes we can't deny the importance of religions on early scientific discoveries, but don't you think that unless some reforms are done, how can further developements are going to take place?
West with maximum number of free thinkers have contributed to science and technology immensly while on the other hand contributions from asia is nearly non existent.

 

[shakil]

Yes we can't deny the importance of religions on early scientific discoveries, but don't you think that unless some reforms are done, how can further developements are going to take place?
West with maximum number of free thinkers have contributed to science and technology immensly while on the other hand contributions from asia is nearly non existent.

We need our renaissance. More trade between countries, open borders, exchange of idea which in turn lead to tolerance of beliefs and open mindedness (Ignoring the Taliban issue for now)

Which other reforms do you have in mind?

 

[prtikul]

Ta for this.

I wouldn't say that Darwin killed God - he was deeply Christian - but he made it impossible for an open-minded person of intellectual rigour to accept the various Abrahamic creation myths as literal truth.

BTW I signed up as agnostic, because I cannot prove that there is no God. I'm agnostic with respect to nearly everything, actually.

Well said,
I have often amused by the fact that most of the europians are agnostic while their american counterparts are deeply religious particularly in the area of bible belt, when majority of the migrated population having British and German roots.What are your views on this?

 

[RexRex]

I get my moral codes from my environment. I don't need a book or a religious leader to tell me that stealing is wrong..

I don't see anything wrong with stealing when it's putting food on the table.I am just trying to survive' , according to Darwin.As Dostoevsky said , 'Without God , all things are permitted.

 

[Jo_Don]

Where do you get your moral codes from - the origin of species or the Selfish gene? Or maybe you get them from episodes of StarTrek.:kami

Societal norms and common sense.

 

[ElRaja]

Well said,
I have often amused by the fact that most of the europians are agnostic while their american counterparts are deeply religious particularly in the area of bible belt, when majority of the migrated population having British and German roots.What are your views on this?

i know you didnt ask me, but still.....

many of the first settlers of the "new world" were driven by religious zeal, to convert the heathen population of the wild men. they also found the geographic isolation more useful for promoting there own puritanical version of Christianity. whereas a integrated europe found religion ever more marginalised in the wake of the renaissance, that never happened in the usa. religion was an identity, especially to identifu "real americans" from the waves of immigrants who followed them. the difficult lives of the early settlers in the great plains and interior of the deep south may also have lent to them seeking more divine help than settled and comfortable Europeans.

the current boom in religion however is not puritanism, nor protestantism but a new commercialised roman Catholicism. it is run like a business, with PR and media awareness like a business, hence its spread is very different to other religions, especially when considering the multitude of platforms that are used to promote the different types of churches and beliefs.

 

[prtikul]

We need our renaissance. More trade between countries, open borders, exchange of idea which in turn lead to tolerance of beliefs and open mindedness (Ignoring the Taliban issue for now)

Which other reforms do you have in mind?

Well, separating state from religion, Stopping religious subjects at school level, Secular constitution would be a good start.
I think Pakistan was much more moderate society till 70's and was progressing economically better than India till 90's.But don't know why society became suddenly intolerent.In India also,we have our fair share of problems of treatment of minorities,rampant casteism and superstions. At end of the day we can't neglect the fact that due to very high population what ever reforms might be done we can't catch the west.

 

[Khaleefa]

I get my moral codes from my environment. I don't need a book or a religious leader to tell me that stealing is wrong..

Environment cannot teach this to humans.
Somewhere somebody must have been given this knowledge that stealing is wrong. You gotta go thousands of years back to figure how and when it was figured out that stealing is wrong, and then how human societies and laws were developed on the basis of morals. It's in your subconscious because of the laws. If you were born in an isolated Island, you would have never figured out that stealing is wrong. Environment cannot teach this to humans. Look at the animals. Cheetah kills the dear, pack of hyena steals it away. Also, look at the food chain of animals, environment has no morals to teach to humans unless u live in a develop world that has laws derived from religious morals.

 

[James]

How is religion not a part of environment by the way?

Unless we're going to suggest that religious disposition may be natural, in other words what Jung and some others have stated, which would really take this discussion up a notch.

 

[MattyB]

I don't see anything wrong with stealing when it's putting food on the table.I am just trying to survive' , according to Darwin.As Dostoevsky said , 'Without God , all things are permitted.

Even with god, all things are still permitted. Many religious people commit crimes, many of them even commit these crimes in the name of their religion.

Religion doesn't change people or their moral codes, a law abiding citizen will abide the law regardless of whether or not they are religious in the same way that someone willing to kill others will still do that regardless of beliefs.

 

[chaiwala]

I don't see anything wrong with stealing when it's putting food on the table.

I find this ironic.

So you, being a religious person, do not find anything wrong with stealing, and only avoid it because it is prohibited by your religion. On the other hand, you have millions of atheists and non-religious people, who avoid stealing because they know it's wrong, and they know it will cause harm to others.

Now you tell me which is a better reason to be moral. It's as if your religion has caused you to completely forget why certain acts are even considered immoral.

 

[MattyB]

Environment cannot teach this to humans.
Somewhere somebody must have been given this knowledge that stealing is wrong. You gotta go thousands of years back to figure how and when it was figured out that stealing is wrong, and then how human societies and laws were developed on the basis of morals. It's in your subconscious because of the laws. If you were born in an isolated Island, you would have never figured out that stealing is wrong. Environment cannot teach this to humans. Look at the animals. Cheetah kills the dear, pack of hyena steals it away. Also, look at the food chain of animals, environment has no morals to teach to humans unless u live in a develop world that has laws derived from religious morals.

By environment I mean friends and family, none of whom are religious. And how did those religious morals come about? From laws and the views of society at the time.

How is religion not a part of environment by the way?

Unless we're going to suggest that religious disposition may be natural, in other words what Jung and some others have stated, which would really take this discussion up a notch.

It does play a small part yes, but to suggest that actively following a religion plays any impact on whether people will commit acts that are seen as unacceptable by society and/or laws is ridiculous.

 

[prtikul]

Environment cannot teach this to humans.
Somewhere somebody must have been given this knowledge that stealing is wrong. You gotta go thousands of years back to figure how and when it was figured out that stealing is wrong, and then how human societies and laws were developed on the basis of morals. It's in your subconscious because of the laws. If you were born in an isolated Island, you would have never figured out that stealing is wrong. Environment cannot teach this to humans. Look at the animals. Cheetah kills the dear, pack of hyena steals it away. Also, look at the food chain of animals, environment has no morals to teach to humans unless u live in a develop world that has laws derived from religious morals.

Who says stealing is wrong as long as you are ready to face consequences of what might follow after stealing. As you can see most of religious kings were used to loot prayer places of other religions. Would you call it wrong?
According to theory of evolution when homo sapians started living in social groups, Stealing the property from other groups or kingdoms were encouraged while for prevention of stealing special forces were employed. If you start stealing within your own group then fights will commence and it will results in weakening of the group so moral formed that stealing is bad.

 

[Khaleefa]

Who says stealing is wrong

stopped reading after this.

One of your fellow atheist/agnostics/whatever.. says it.

You will need to settle this with him first before we could proceed.

 

[prtikul]

stopped reading after this.

One of your fellow atheist/agnostics/whatever.. says it.

You will need to settle this with him first before we could proceed.

I am all for discussion, please read my complete post and give your valued opinion.

 

[Khaleefa]

By environment I mean friends and family, none of whom are religious. And how did those religious morals come about? From laws and the views of society at the time.

Where do the laws come from?
Keep on going with this lovely expedition of exploration about how the human social laws were developed and what the views of societies were based on and and then developed into morals? Somebody somewhere somehow must have given this knowledge to human beings. Early humans could have not learned this from animals or environment. Could they?

 

[RexRex]

So you, being a religious person, do not find anything wrong with stealing, and only avoid it because it is prohibited by your religion.

That's a cheap way of putting it ha.No , I avoid it because I believe human beings are made in the image of God and have inherent worth ergo there is something called good and bad.Atheism tells me I am a bunch of molecules lol.

On the other hand, you have millions of atheists and non-religious people, who avoid stealing because they know it's wrong, and they know it will cause harm to others.

Again , why is causing harm to others wrong on atheism ?? Survival is the only thing that matters.

 

[RexRex]

Unless we're going to suggest that religious disposition may be natural, in other words what Jung and some others have stated, which would really take this discussion up a notch.

I think a million plus gods recorded by history is reason enough to believe that human beings in general have a religious disposition - some kind of inbuilt longing.People here say they find concept of God to be absurd.Frankly I find us evolving from one molecule to a complex breathing-human being that suddenly starts to falsely believe in a mythical being even more bizarre !
Who defines bizarre btw ??

 

[MattyB]

Where do the laws come from?
Keep on going with this lovely expedition of exploration about how the human social laws were developed and what the views of societies were based on and and then developed into morals? Somebody somewhere somehow must have given this knowledge to human beings. Early humans could have not learned this from animals or environment. Could they?

Or maybe they could?

Many religious texts and leaders tell us that homosexuality is a sin yet social laws have developed in the west as have the morals of western society to where it has become acceptable. No divine figure appeared to give us this new knowledge, it is called the spreading of ideas and an evolution of social thinking. The same way in which all of these social laws originally came into being.

 

[James]

Inbuilt longing could just be some kind of yearning to not be destroyed though.

It doesn't have to specifically be an inbuilt longing for God which confirms him to be real.

Read Sartre, Being And Nothingness. Being in its nature is terrified of many things, but most terrified of becoming Nothing. From this premise Man could invent any fanciful theory as to why he might live forever.

(Devil's advocate to an extent - like Aquinas, I believe in someone or something which we might call God)

 

[vandokkum]

Inbuilt longing could just be some kind of yearning to not be destroyed though.

It doesn't have to specifically be an inbuilt longing for God which confirms him to be real.

Read Sartre, Being And Nothingness. Being in its nature is terrified of many things, but most terrified of becoming Nothing. From this premise Man could invent any fanciful theory as to why he might live forever.

(Devil's advocate to an extent - like Aquinas, I believe in someone or something which we might call God)

Are you a christian?

 

[lilFlip]

What some religious people might consider moral, as a human I find extremely offensive. Countries with majority non religious populations are doing just fine, considering they don't have any morals.

You've no idea how flawed that argument is.

 

[James]

Are you a christian?

Kinda.

 

[RexRex]

Inbuilt longing could just be some kind of yearning to not be destroyed though.

It doesn't have to specifically be an inbuilt longing for God which confirms him to be real.

Read Sartre, Being And Nothingness. Being in its nature is terrified of many things, but most terrified of becoming Nothing. From this premise Man could invent any fanciful theory as to why he might live forever.

(Devil's advocate to an extent - like Aquinas, I believe in someone or something which we might call God)

Are you terrified of being nothing James ? Why on earth would anyone even bother about being destroyed , lying peacefully in a casket free of all the worries of life.I would love that

For me longing for God = longing for purpose in life simply put.It certainly isn't fear of dying.

As for it being a fanciful theory and skepticism, well then just follow Pascal's wager..Wouldn't hurt would it ?

 

[James]

Because I don't want to die. I enjoy being alive too much. And I'm sure many people throughout history felt the same.

One of the largest concepts in man-made religion has been the Afterlife for a reason. People might say they believe in and fear God etc, but ultimately humans are a selfish being and have themselves in mind too - they want to imagine a scenario where they never cease to exist.

I do believe in some transcendent plain or alternate dimension, partly from faith/interest and partly because I think I might have been there maybe twice or at least once.

 

[Zarrar]

Originally Posted by Khaleefa
And finally, how do you look at Quran? A man made story book?
- Definitely not a man made story book but one that doesn't serve much purpose today since the average human being has neither the intelligence to understand it nor the moral fiber to act upon it which makes it somewhat redundant. What that means is that it leaves open the possibility of evil men exploiting the gullible masses using the book to serve their own agendas, something that is blatantly evident on every street of every country where Muslims live.
.

Sorry, not sure who wrote the above highlighted bits regarding Quran, but a bit of clarification is in order...for my edification at least...

Wouldn't obsolete be a better characterization of a book that doesn't "serve much purpose"? Redundant points to something that already exists or in this case a "purpose" that is being served else where by another source, an alternate moral guiding set of principals or ethos, hence the redundacy of Quran. And if such an alternative exist, what is it? Doesn't it then render the earlier assertion in the same para about the lack of intelligence in the contemporary human beings to make use of Quran, rather hollow or fallacious, since an equal or a superior guidance exists today which accomodates the present human beings lowered "intelligence levels".

And what does it say about the divine credentials (which above para subscribes to) of a book when it deosn't anticipate the lowering of intelligence in human beings of the future or heavens forbid, that the divine book becomes redundant or obsolete...

 

[vandokkum]

edit

 

[Khaleefa]

Or maybe they could?

Many religious texts and leaders tell us that homosexuality is a sin yet social laws have developed in the west as have the morals of western society to where it has become acceptable. No divine figure appeared to give us this new knowledge, it is called the spreading of ideas and an evolution of social thinking. The same way in which all of these social laws originally came into being.

lol ... reminds me a joke by Abdul Raheem Green.

This full blown American moves to Afghanistan and starts living with Talibans in tora bora caves. The locals ask him, you are an American who could live a very happy life in a first world country of yours where you can have everything you want, why the heck would you come here and live in this hell hole with us?

He says, It's because of democracy.
They asked, how so ?
He says, when I was a young kid people rejected homosexuality and did not allow it to happen in our society. But when I was growing up, some people got together in the city hall and agreed to make a law that forced us to ignore those homosexuals and their acts so folks started not to care about it anymore.
Later, some folks got together again in the city hall and agreed to pass a law that let homosexuals get married to each other.

So now I escaped out of America in a fear that what if tomorrow some people get together in the govt's city hall again and pass a law that makes homosexuality mandatory for everyone?

Anyway, what you are sheltering under is the philosophy of (I forgot the name of this philosopher), "What is right for me is right for me, what is right for you is right for you", which may be practical to small extent on very personal level but this philosophy has been long done and dusted.

 

[prtikul]

Because I don't want to die. I enjoy being alive too much. And I'm sure many people throughout history felt the same.

One of the largest concepts in man-made religion has been the Afterlife for a reason. People might say they believe in and fear God etc, but ultimately humans are a selfish being and have themselves in mind too - they want to imagine a scenario where they never cease to exist.

I do believe in some transcendent plain or alternate dimension, partly from faith/interest and partly because I think I might have been there maybe twice or at least once.

Top post.
Before becoming atheist I used to fear about death a lot. The concept of nothing after life is so scary that sometimes I used to think that hell is better than nothingness after death.
But as you can see, We were dead for billions of years and probably going to be dead for eternity to follow. We have one life to make it count,no afterlife. By the way our existence is one of the biggest biological accident as in the pool of billions of sperms, due to inception of that particular sperm we are formed, so we are blessed to see this universe, blessed that we have brain which is capable to do abstract thinking.

 

[ElRaja]

Because I don't want to die. I enjoy being alive too much. And I'm sure many people throughout history felt the same.

One of the largest concepts in man-made religion has been the Afterlife for a reason. People might say they believe in and fear God etc, but ultimately humans are a selfish being and have themselves in mind too - they want to imagine a scenario where they never cease to exist.

but surely from a nihilistic point of view there is no need to worry about death. you wouldnt feel it, experience it or have to deal with or witness its consequences.

how can you bemoan not being alive or reflect on anything you did in life, if you cease to exist?

I do believe in some transcendent plain or alternate dimension, partly from faith/interest and partly because I think I might have been there maybe twice or at least once.

hmmm, sounds like you had a good night then!

 

[James]

Blimey, my brain hurts.

Good stuff though.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Atheist group doesn't necessarily mean that we are having war against religions. As I have mentioned in the above posts that increased number free thinkers does not change culture drastically but only helps to make society more tolerent.
As USA and UK have more number of free thinkers, as a result they have more tolerence towards minorities.

I agree, that's why I believe in, and very much appreciate living in a secular society. But the OP has provided links to signing up to be part of an atheistic society which is forming a group against another society or at least, that's how it appears to me reading their material. Nothing wrong with that, except I'm neither an atheist, neither do I want to be part of this group or that group.

 

[Robert]

Well said,
I have often amused by the fact that most of the europians are agnostic while their american counterparts are deeply religious particularly in the area of bible belt, when majority of the migrated population having British and German roots.What are your views on this?

Simple - the modern Yanks are descendants of fundamentalist nutcases such as the Pilgrim Fathers who could not get on with anyone else in their own countries!

It is an American myth that the Pilgrims fled England to escape persecution. They fled the influence of the liberal (for the time) Church of England so that they could continue to persecute Quakers!

 

[Khaleefa]

Simple - the modern Yanks are descendants of fundamentalist nutcases such as the Pilgrim Fathers who could not get on with anyone else in their own countries!

It is an American myth that the Pilgrims fled England to escape persecution. They fled the influence of the liberal (for the time) Church of England so that they could continue to persecute Quakers!

well
Rod Parsley thinks differently. Listen @ 0:24

[utube]WXZbIGJrDkg[/utube]​

 

[IgnitedMind]

Count me as an atheist.....I think organized religion is one of the worst thing that happened to humanity....it has stopped humans from taking charge of the situation...made them helpless....made them not question.....thank god for the free thinking people every generation ...humanity has come this far....We would have been stick stuck in stone age worshipping "Ra" if it was for religious people.

Qazzar fan has said every thing I wanted to see.....

 

[ammo]

Just a couple of quick questions, this is not a debate.
Could u shortly explain how does this work? I believe that there is an external/internal power that acts apon evey thing (in our world and out of). I simply do not agree with the concept of religion which i believe seperates people, and causes hatred.
You believe that a God exists. You believe in your own existence as well, correct? yes.
How do you and God related? Through living. I don't pray or worship god I do however aknowledge the existance of god. I don't pray because i feel that the problems people pray for are insignificant when compared to what is happenening in our cosmos/universe
If God does exist then what does he do/What's his function? Function is to trigger the big bang ( it can only be traced so far back to which scientists describe as nothing but there always has to be a trigger-god). The other role of god is to keep our cosmos/universe populated- make sure there is life.
What's the purpose of your life if God exist? to do good not evil

I think that people don't think of the possibility that god not only has a presance on earth but throughout our universe, and if you use logic and probablility the chances of other life in our universe/cosmos is possible.Just makes you think.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i96nYYcEKNw

 

[vandokkum]

Count me as an atheist.....I think organized religion is one of the worst thing that happened to humanity....it has stopped humans from taking charge of the situation...made them helpless....made them not question.....thank god for the free thinking people every generation ...humanity has come this far....We would have been stick stuck in stone age worshipping "Ra" if it was for religious people.

Qazzar fan has said every thing I wanted to see.....

I have yet to see any unorganized religions... I agree with you though.

 

[FusedBulb]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i96nYYcEKNw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9loC96y2_8U

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

Originally Posted by FusedBulb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9loC96y2_8U

In the video yusuf estes says that there is no compulsion in islam if u become a muslim but he goes onto to say that once u do accept islam u cant go back and change ur mind on it correct me if i am wrong but isnot that compulsion not to leave the religion.

 

[Khaleefa]

Just a couple of quick questions, this is not a debate.
Could u shortly explain how does this work? I believe that there is an external/internal power that acts apon evey thing (in our world and out of). I simply do not agree with the concept of religion which i believe seperates people, and causes hatred.
You believe that a God exists. You believe in your own existence as well, correct? yes.
How do you and God related? Through living. I don't pray or worship god I do however aknowledge the existance of god. I don't pray because i feel that the problems people pray for are insignificant when compared to what is happenening in our cosmos/universe
If God does exist then what does he do/What's his function? Function is to trigger the big bang ( it can only be traced so far back to which scientists describe as nothing but there always has to be a trigger-god). The other role of god is to keep our cosmos/universe populated- make sure there is life.
What's the purpose of your life if God exist? to do good not evil

I think that people don't think of the possibility that god not only has a presance on earth but throughout our universe, and if you use logic and probablility the chances of other life in our universe/cosmos is possible.Just makes you think.

"To do good and not evil"
hmmm ,,, u, me George Bush Gandhi, Pope, Obama, Hitler, Nelson Mandella, Stallin, a street beggar, a philosopher, a convicted criminal, Tendulkar? I mean who is going to decide what's good and what's evil, who is going to draw this line? Cuz if we ourselves are to decide what's good n what's evil then a thief may find it good to rob cuz it benefits him while the person got robbed may see robbery as an evil act. Same goes with the rape, murder etc. Lets dilute it a little. In South Asian countries strangers (men and women) when introduced may not shake hands in respect of the female, in other countries they may shake hands or even hug each other as a good gesture. Now an asian female may not like to be hugged by a stranger at introduction. So which act is good?

And what's the story on Quran? U skipped that ....

 

[Khaleefa]

In the video yusuf estes says that there is no compulsion in islam if u become a muslim but he goes onto to say that once u do accept islam u cant go back and change ur mind on it correct me if i am wrong but isnot that compulsion not to leave the religion.

Do me a favor.
Cross a red light at a traffic signal and tell the judge that you are a free man living in a free country and thus subject to no rules and laws.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

Originally Posted by Khaleefa
Do me a favor.
Cross a red light at a traffic signal and tell the judge that you are a free man living in a free country and thus subject to no rules and laws.

I amnot advocating that we live without any rules or laws but i am against religious laws which favours people of a particular faith and advocate chopping off hands for stealing,killing people for apostasy and adultary.What we need are secular laws which allow people to live their lives according to ones own interpretations without harming others.

 

[Black Zero]

 

[QazzarFan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i96nYYcEKNw

Wow that is pure evil. The reason he is still alive today and well despite that speech is only due to that freedom, secular rights that he wants his followers to cut down...what a despicable hypocrite.

 

[Third Umpire]

Don't think there are any on this forum but I knew one back in high school. Not the typical 'liberal elite' that non-religious Pakistanis are portrayed as either. She was from a really poor family, attended our school on a full scholarship(the school's monthly tuition fees were about the same as what her family made in a month), got a full ride to Princeton and is currently at MIT.

It is very interesting you observed this too, most Pakistani atheists I know (there are more than 299 btw) come from very common backgrounds. Amm aadmi types. I don't know too many elites, but the few I do know are actually God fearing.

 

[QazzarFan]

Do me a favor.
Cross a red light at a traffic signal and tell the judge that you are a free man living in a free country and thus subject to no rules and laws.

Those laws are there to preserve human life. It is designed to keep you alive so that you can fulfill your dreams, wishes and live a fulfilling life. Those laws doesn't discriminate based on your color, gender, sexual preference or religion. Subject to traffic laws does not equal to subjugation and unquestionable following. You can contest in a court of law, use your democratic rights to fight it if necessary....can you do that with religious laws? Or does it not ask for unquestioning obedience from you....criticizing or questioning anything is absolutely forbidden and discouraged...one wonders why? Is it because the founders and creators were afraid one day people will start to question and rise up against the frailty? hmmm

 

[LethalSami]

hmmmmmmmmm

what can be worse than organized atheists???? nothing

 

[kingusama92]

I'm not sure about the experiences others have had, but I have seen people who are technically 'atheists' straying away from the phrase/grouping.

Mainly, because they believe atheism has brought forward too many nut jobs of it's own. Something they are trying to stray away from.

Maybe, it's just a restricted POV. I have no clue.

 

[James]

[utube]i96nYYcEKNw[/utube]

What a nuthouse. 'We need to behead democracy'.

This is exactly why I support free speech though. Don't suppress people, don't bottle up their already seething views. Instead, let crackheads like this spout their drivel and people will have enough sense to decide that his views are abhorrent and irrelevant.

 

[James]

hmmmmmmmmm

what can be worse than organized atheists???? nothing

A great many things actually, and many of them connected with organised religion.

I'm not sure about the experiences others have had, but I have seen people who are technically 'atheists' straying away from the phrase/grouping.

Mainly, because they believe atheism has brought forward too many nut jobs of it's own. Something they are trying to stray away from.

Maybe, it's just a restricted POV. I have no clue.

This post is articulated very poorly. What are you talking about?

 

[akheR]

I have yet to see any unorganized religions... I agree with you though.

I think he meant spirituality (without the rituals, dogmas, punishments, ...)

 

[MattyB]

lol ... reminds me a joke by Abdul Raheem Green.

This full blown American moves to Afghanistan and starts living with Talibans in tora bora caves. The locals ask him, you are an American who could live a very happy life in a first world country of yours where you can have everything you want, why the heck would you come here and live in this hell hole with us?

He says, It's because of democracy.
They asked, how so ?
He says, when I was a young kid people rejected homosexuality and did not allow it to happen in our society. But when I was growing up, some people got together in the city hall and agreed to make a law that forced us to ignore those homosexuals and their acts so folks started not to care about it anymore.
Later, some folks got together again in the city hall and agreed to pass a law that let homosexuals get married to each other.

So now I escaped out of America in a fear that what if tomorrow some people get together in the govt's city hall again and pass a law that makes homosexuality mandatory for everyone?

Anyway, what you are sheltering under is the philosophy of (I forgot the name of this philosopher), "What is right for me is right for me, what is right for you is right for you", which may be practical to small extent on very personal level but this philosophy has been long done and dusted.

You entirely missed the point.

Humans today are creating laws based on their morals rather than religious texts so how come you believe that they couldn't do it before?

As for your last paragraph, I have no clue what you are talking about or how it ties in with our conversation...