Babar Azam versus Shan Masood: Captaincy comparison

[emranabbas]

this thread isn't about the performance of Babar vs Shan strictly about captaincy skills, and this thread isnt to suggest who would be better than shan and babar.

I know its only been a test and half, so far what do you like or hate about shan's captaincy compared to Babar's captaincy? And who do you think is the better option based on captaincy only.

 

[shariqnoor]

Shan has already out captained Babar. His captaincy has been on point in this series given the resources at his disposal. He's put in unorthodox field placements and he's been rewarded with wickets of Head and Marsh.

I can't fault his captaincy at the moment.

 

[ahmadharis1]

Small sample size and probably some recency bias but just looking at captaincy ability and not pure runs... I'd lean towards Shan.

I can't remember a time when Babar was test captain that I thought "hey that was a good field placement and good planning". Shan has done that twice for me so far in this series with his perfectly positioned fielders at unusual spots only to be at the exact spot for a catch.

Shan also has the prior captaincy experience in Pakistan domestics, PSL and England County Championship and this experiences is starting to show. Whereas I don't really recall Babar's captaincy prior to him as Pakistan captain. I think he was u-19 captain for a bit and as a Karachi fan he was dreadful as a captain.

 

[shariqnoor]

My barometer is Wasim Akram. If he suggests something, do the complete opposite and Shan has done that. Wasim was crying on air that why Shan has given the new ball to Mir Hamza and not to Aamer Jamal? Mir Hamza got two wickets soon after Wasim commented. So kudos to Shan.

 

[kingusama92]

Shan is a much smarter fielding captain. Thoughtful with his changes.

 

[shaz619]

Shan is a bit better but my magnum opus for Pakistani Captaincy is Sarfraz Ahmed and Shan is still inferior to the Karachi stalwart

 

[deltexas]

Credit is where it's due. Shan has been pretty proactive and it's the toughest tour for pak. For some batsmen- captaincy becomes a burden. But for some especially less talented ones - the captaincy makes them perform better as they have to justify being a captain. So far shan has looked pretty good albeit it's only a test and half - so limited sample size

 

[Markhor]

Frankly any run of the mill FC captain is better than Babar.

What astounded me about Babar is how he had so much captaincy experience in U19s, A team, domestic, PSL and with Pakistan yet never improved one iota.

Forget out of the box thinking - he didn't do the basics. You don't need to be a Stephen Fleming to know you should push the field in on the last ball of a knockout match vs SL in the Asia Cup. You don't need Mahela Jayawardene to tell you prematurely declaring and nearly giftwrapping a Test to NZL to show fake aggression isn't a good idea. And the list goes on.

Sometimes your best player isn't always your best captaincy candidate.

 

[emranabbas]

Proved many wrong

Never seen Australia on the back foot like this vs pakistan

 

[BouncerGuy]

Shan has been brilliant so far. Never have seen such a scorecard before apart from that 2010 amir asif onslaught.

 

[Asad T]

Some of his fielding placements have been fantastic, and he has rotated the bowlers well. One criticism, though, is that he could have kept more attacking fielders at the start of the Aus innings. But Pak still pressed on with wickets.

 

[Buffet]

I would have liked him to plug easy singles on leg side for Smith.

 

[MenInG]

Frankly any run of the mill FC captain is better than Babar.

What astounded me about Babar is how he had so much captaincy experience in U19s, A team, domestic, PSL and with Pakistan yet never improved one iota.

Forget out of the box thinking - he didn't do the basics. You don't need to be a Stephen Fleming to know you should push the field in on the last ball of a knockout match vs SL in the Asia Cup. You don't need Mahela Jayawardene to tell you prematurely declaring and nearly gift-wrapping a Test to NZL to show fake aggression isn't a good idea. And the list goes on.

Sometimes your best player isn't always your best captaincy candidate.

Mike Brearley comes to mind.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

In an interview with a local news outlet Pakistan all-rounder Aamer Jamal drew a comparison between the captaincy styles of Babar Azam and Shan Masood, he said:

“When it comes to captaincy, both have their own different mindsets. Shan Bhai’s approach is different, and Bobby Bhai’s approach is different. I have very good terms with both of them,”

“I have had good terms with Shan Bhai since the time I played first-class cricket. When I joined the Pakistan team for practice bowling, he treated me very well."

“Both have different mindsets. I believe Bobby Bhai is a bit defensive. He thinks about securing the team first. Shani Bhai is a bit aggressive as he believes if somebody throws punch, you should too."

“As captains, both of them understand you and ask about your needs and what you require,”

 

[Rana]

In an interview with a local news outlet Pakistan all-rounder Aamer Jamal drew a comparison between the captaincy styles of Babar Azam and Shan Masood, he said:

“When it comes to captaincy, both have their own different mindsets. Shan Bhai’s approach is different, and Bobby Bhai’s approach is different. I have very good terms with both of them,”

“I have had good terms with Shan Bhai since the time I played first-class cricket. When I joined the Pakistan team for practice bowling, he treated me very well."

“Both have different mindsets. I believe Bobby Bhai is a bit defensive. He thinks about securing the team first. Shani Bhai is a bit aggressive as he believes if somebody throws punch, you should too."

“As captains, both of them understand you and ask about your needs and what you require,”

But according to some, Babar is an aggressive captain….








Hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahsshahahahaha

 

[mominsaigol]

But according to some, Babar is an aggressive captain….








Hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahsshahahahaha

Tbf Misbah as an onfield captain was good, problem is his onfield captaincy style and decisions now no longer work since that era was different.

Theirs a reason why misbah kept losing to Australia since the likes of Warner never adhered to the old rules lol.

That era didn't feature a bazzball England side nor was odi viewed as an extension of t20, 270 was still Considered par back in the day.

Only a few hitters like ABD were ahead of their time otherwise people like amla, Kane Williamson, Clarke were considered top dogs but over time even Amla level players are considered outdated when sa is literally filling it's team with klaseen, van der dussan, QDK etc.

Like back then the greatest finisher Dhoni would take the game deep, whereas people like butler nowadays finish the game with a 45 ball 100.

Babar's Misbah like defensive captaincy just cannot work in this era. The mantra of trying to restrict boundaries and increase RR pressure when someone like Travis head is on strike is hilarious. This tactic only works on Labu or amla like players because you're forcing them to play out of their natural game.

For players like butler you gotta be aggressive 24/7 and take their wicket. It'll be impossible to go defense mode against them.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Tbf Misbah as an onfield captain was good, problem is his onfield captaincy style and decisions now no longer work since that era was different.

Theirs a reason why misbah kept losing to Australia since the likes of Warner never adhered to the old rules lol.

That era didn't feature a bazzball England side nor was odi viewed as an extension of t20, 270 was still Considered par back in the day.

Only a few hitters like ABD were ahead of their time otherwise people like amla, Kane Williamson, Clarke were considered top dogs but over time even Amla level players are considered outdated when sa is literally filling it's team with klaseen, van der dussan, QDK etc.

Like back then the greatest finisher Dhoni would take the game deep, whereas people like butler nowadays finish the game with a 45 ball 100.

Babar's Misbah like defensive captaincy just cannot work in this era. The mantra of trying to restrict boundaries and increase RR pressure when someone like Travis head is on strike is hilarious. This tactic only works on Labu or amla like players because you're forcing them to play out of their natural game.

For players like butler you gotta be aggressive 24/7 and take their wicket. It'll be impossible to go defense mode against them.

What does misbah have to do anything with this thread?

Clearly it was Babar vs Shan comparison. Misbah was not the topic of discussion here.

 

[mominsaigol]

What does misbah have to do anything with this thread?

Clearly it was Babar vs Shan comparison. Misbah was not the topic of discussion here.

Misbah as a captain was a prelude to Babar. Babar got groomed by Misbah so his tactics are similar in comparison.

 

[Bhaijaan]

More talented : Babar Azam
More gifted : Shan Masood
More style : Babar Azam
More swagger : Shan Masood
Women’s favorite : Shan Masood
Men’s favorite : Babar Azam

Conclusion: Mohammad Amir deserves the captaincy spot

 

[Rana]

In an interview with a local news outlet Pakistan all-rounder Aamer Jamal drew a comparison between the captaincy styles of Babar Azam and Shan Masood, he said:

“When it comes to captaincy, both have their own different mindsets. Shan Bhai’s approach is different, and Bobby Bhai’s approach is different. I have very good terms with both of them,”

“I have had good terms with Shan Bhai since the time I played first-class cricket. When I joined the Pakistan team for practice bowling, he treated me very well."

“Both have different mindsets. I believe Bobby Bhai is a bit defensive. He thinks about securing the team first. Shani Bhai is a bit aggressive as he believes if somebody throws punch, you should too."

“As captains, both of them understand you and ask about your needs and what you require,”

@Major thoughts on this?

 

[sweep_shot]

I believe neither is a good captaincy option. Both seem introverted.

Captain should be someone who has a charismatic personality (Imran Khan, Sarfaraz Ahmed, Younis Khan, Shahid Afridi etc.).

 

[Rana]

I believe neither is a good captaincy option. Both seem introverted.

Captain should be someone who has a charismatic personality (Imran Khan, Sarfaraz Ahmed, Younis Khan, Shahid Afridi etc.).

Shan is not introverted but is a wannabe

 

[Master Blaster]

Want the best player in the team to lead?
Choose Bobby.

Want the best english speaking player in the team to lead?
Choose Shani.

Want the best captain material player in the team to lead?
Choose None.

 

[sweep_shot]

Also, Shan Masood hasn't been a captain for long. Not enough data to assess his captaincy skills.

Babar has been a captain for a few years. So, he can be assessed.

 

[Major]

@Major thoughts on this?

Like everyone else, Aamir Jamal is also misusing the term. But i dont blame him because its not like he is educated.

Again, people use defensive and aggressive captaincy as synonym for good and bad captaincy, when infact, aggressive and defensive captaincy are different terms.

Shan Masood adjusts himself to the situtation. To say he is defensive or aggressive makes 0 sense, because where the situation requires to adopt defensive captaincy, Shan does that.

Meanwhile, babar is aggressive.

Again, aggressive doesnt mean Good.

 

[Hellion]

Want the best player in the team to lead?
Choose Bobby.

Want the best english speaking player in the team to lead?
Choose Shani.

Want the best captain material player in the team to lead?
Choose None.

This is truth. Babar has little bit talent. But still more than others

 

[mominsaigol]

Like everyone else, Aamir Jamal is also misusing the term. But i dont blame him because its not like he is educated.

Again, people use defensive and aggressive captaincy as synonym for good and bad captaincy, when infact, aggressive and defensive captaincy are different terms.

Shan Masood adjusts himself to the situtation. To say he is defensive or aggressive makes 0 sense, because where the situation requires to adopt defensive captaincy, Shan does that.

Meanwhile, babar is aggressive.

Again, aggressive doesnt mean Good.

Brother Aggressive captaincy is literally 2 metrics.

If you're batting, then as a captain you have to be aggressive with SR and motivate your team to be aggressive as well. While their isn't much you can do about their performance or if they improve their SR, you have complete control over yours.

Coming onto bowling, Aggressive captaincy means to take as many wickets as humanely possible and go for the kill as being defensive aka restricting singles, trying to avoid boundaries just doesn't work on people like QDK.

Babar Azam is anything but Aggressive. Their have been good captains who have been defensive in the past, Dhoni is one such captain who would alternate on being aggressive to a newbie batsmen aka trying to get him out ASAP whike usually being restrictive to Sangakara like batsmen.

Babar azam is no such thing nor is he aggressive. He goes by a particular formula and waits for things to happen. For example in the rained off India game, he bowled his pacers who dismantled Indian top order, Afterwards he took them off and bowled spinners causing India to recover and reach 260. If he was aggressive he wouldn't have bowled 30 overs of spin straight after Indian top order fell like a house of cards.

When plans do not work, only then he panicky and decides to burn all his pacers and hopes for spinners to bowl final overs, that's not a sign of Aggression, it's a textbook sign of panicking.

Please get these fundamentals sorted.

 

[Rana]

. But i dont blame him because its not like he is educated.

So you think lack of education is the reason why anyone would perceive Babar as a defensive captain and not an aggressive captain?

 

[mominsaigol]

So you think lack of education is the reason why anyone would perceive Babar as a defensive captain and not an aggressive captain?

I've never once heard anyone call babar an aggressive captain besides rameez raja.

Babar is universally critisized for being too defensive and just not attacking in general.

Heck babar himself admits it, against Ireland he said " Ireland beat us because they attacked us"

 

[Rana]

I've never once heard anyone call babar an aggressive captain besides rameez raja.

Babar is universally critisized for being too defensive and just not attacking in general.

Heck babar himself admits it, against Ireland he said " Ireland beat us because they attacked us"

But it’s a lack of education maybe? Enough education will make you see Babar as an aggressive captain?

 

[mominsaigol]

But it’s a lack of education maybe? Enough education will make you see Babar as an aggressive captain?

Damn I thought my bachelors and Masters + 2 years of work experience was enough?

Guess I gotta a get a PHD now. My final thesis will be discussing how Babar is an aggressive captain.

See you in 3 years, hope you're looking forward to reading my 5000 page essay.

 

[Major]

Brother Aggressive captaincy is literally 2 metrics.

If you're batting, then as a captain you have to be aggressive with SR and motivate your team to be aggressive as well. While their isn't much you can do about their performance or if they improve their SR, you have complete control over yours.

Coming onto bowling, Aggressive captaincy means to take as many wickets as humanely possible and go for the kill as being defensive aka restricting singles, trying to avoid boundaries just doesn't work on people like QDK.

Babar Azam is anything but Aggressive. Their have been good captains who have been defensive in the past, Dhoni is one such captain who would alternate on being aggressive to a newbie batsmen aka trying to get him out ASAP whike usually being restrictive to Sangakara like batsmen.

Babar azam is no such thing nor is he aggressive. He goes by a particular formula and waits for things to happen. For example in the rained off India game, he bowled his pacers who dismantled Indian top order, Afterwards he took them off and bowled spinners causing India to recover and reach 260. If he was aggressive he wouldn't have bowled 30 overs of spin straight after Indian top order fell like a house of cards.

When plans do not work, only then he panicky and decides to burn all his pacers and hopes for spinners to bowl final overs, that's not a sign of Aggression, it's a textbook sign of panicking.

Please get these fundamentals sorted.

bro again, aggressive and defensive captaincy has nothing to do with Batting strike rate. This term has been misused in the subcontinent. Infact, people even think aggressive capttaincy means good captaincy, and defensive captaincy means bad captaincy.


I agree with your second para. However with the rest i disagree with.

Babar was overly aggresive, which is why we lost alot of games. Had he been defensive, we would had done better.

There were matches where Imad should had open the spell, but Babar still went with Shaheen. There were moments where we should had played a 6th bowling option but Babar went with 5 bowlers.

Babar does go with a fixed plan and doesnt deter from that, so i agree with your last para, but Babar was always aggressive, which does not mean he was good.

 

[Rana]

bro again, aggressive and defensive captaincy has nothing to do with Batting strike rate. This term has been misused in the subcontinent. Infact, people even think aggressive capttaincy means good captaincy, and defensive captaincy means bad captaincy.


I agree with your second para. However with the rest i disagree with.

Babar was overly aggresive, which is why we lost alot of games. Had he been defensive, we would had done better.

There were matches where Imad should had open the spell, but Babar still went with Shaheen. There were moments where we should had played a 6th bowling option but Babar went with 5 bowlers.

Babar does go with a fixed plan and doesnt deter from that, so i agree with your last para, but Babar was always aggressive, which does not mean he was good.

Playing more seamers than spinners is not an aggressive move! What’s your issue with this?? It’s not 1992 anymore!

 

[ads101]

Even if Babar and Shan were the same level of captaincy I’d opt for Shan as captain. The team needs a fresh look. That was evident in the Australian series even though we lost, the change in captaincy was refreshing.

Though I’m pretty sure Shan is a better captain anyway.

There’s only two realistic choices, Rizwan and Shan. Both have faults. The rest aren’t really realistic and won’t happen. Haris won’t go straight to captaincy, Shadab won’t be made captain due to his declining form, Shaheen being a frontline pacer with injury issues and too young isn’t going to get a chance again soon. Imad I thought was one, but I think he’s going to retire again. Sarfraz isn’t coming back now let’s face it. Maybe there’s a small outside chance with Shadab as I think he was the one being groomed for captaincy for a few years now.

If we don’t go for one of Rizwan or Masood, they will continue with Babar really. I’d honestly take any of those after Babar at this point. I’d even take Shadab. Captaincy is done for Babar I feel.

 

[BouncerGuy]

TBH, what shan did in Australia was a better job than babar could have done. Babar really tries to stay on 1 plan and waits for things to go in his favor otherwise it is going to be a defeat and he accepts it. He does not change his strategy according to the situation. I think it is a somewhat defensive mindset that you do not want to change your path because you are afraid.

Shan has been captain for just 1 series. Let's see how he performs at home against Bangladesh now.

 

[mominsaigol]

bro again, aggressive and defensive captaincy has nothing to do with Batting strike rate. This term has been misused in the subcontinent. Infact, people even think aggressive capttaincy means good captaincy, and defensive captaincy means bad captaincy.


I agree with your second para. However with the rest i disagree with.

Babar was overly aggresive, which is why we lost alot of games. Had he been defensive, we would had done better.

There were matches where Imad should had open the spell, but Babar still went with Shaheen. There were moments where we should had played a 6th bowling option but Babar went with 5 bowlers.

Babar does go with a fixed plan and doesnt deter from that, so i agree with your last para, but Babar was always aggressive, which does not mean he was good.

Fair enough, we'll agree to disagree then, atleast we're on the same page as to what the overall definition of aggressive and defensive captaincy entails.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Pakistan team was never known for tactical captaincy. Mostly leadership rather than tact. May be little bit of tact. Can you list the crucial errors made by Babar on field? You gotta be a bit technical when you say someone is better than the other. With MSD i can give so many examples about his master moves.

 

[Major]

Meanwhile, Aamir Jamal also said the toughest batsman he has faced is Azam Khan.

Which is why, his words should not be taken seriously.

 

[Rana]

Meanwhile, Aamir Jamal also said the toughest batsman he has faced is Azam Khan.

Which is why, his words should not be taken seriously.

What is your problem? Azam Khan smashes all of these bowlers from Pakistan just like all the world’s best T20 players do on the global stage.

Why are you discrediting him? Just because he didn’t say “Rizwan and Babar is the toughest batsman I bowled to? Babar dabs my Yorkers for a single to 3rd man! I hate the way Rizwan pinches 2 runs off my slot balls to deep midwicket post powerplay”.

 

[Rana]

Shan Masood leading this thread 31-0

I’m surprised @Ahmed216 didnt vote for Babar

 

[Ahmed216]

Shan Masood leading this thread 31-0

I’m surprised @Ahmed216 didnt vote for Babar

I've never said Babar is a good captain.

But I would wait before voting for Shan.

Shan seems a better captain than Babar to those who think Sahibzada Farhan is a better batsman than Babar.
Desperate Pakistan fans always think that the untested players are better than those who are playing.

 

[Major]

What is your problem? Azam Khan smashes all of these bowlers from Pakistan just like all the world’s best T20 players do on the global stage.

Why are you discrediting him? Just because he didn’t say “Rizwan and Babar is the toughest batsman I bowled to? Babar dabs my Yorkers for a single to 3rd man! I hate the way Rizwan pinches 2 runs off my slot balls to deep midwicket post powerplay”.

Because a bowler is claiming that a guy with a batting avg of just 8 runs per match in international cricket is the toughest batsman he has ever faced.

That not only shows his thinking.

I dont understand that why do you keep assuming i defend Babar as a captain.

I find Babar to be a bad captain. An Aggressive captain is NOT a synonym for being a Good captain.

 

[Major]

I've never said Babar is a good captain.

But I would wait before voting for Shan.

Shan seems a better captain than Babar to those who think Sahibzada Farhan is a better batsman than Babar.
Desperate Pakistan fans always think that the untested players are better than those who are playing.

Like he is picking arguments with peoplle for no reason and just based on assumption.

He thinks if you back the batsman, that means you are also supporting his captaincy. He doesnt understand that captaincy and batting are two seperate things, and you can like one thing while critisize the other.

Seriously, picking up arguments just for the sake makes this poster look weird.

 

[Rana]

Meanwhile, Aamir Jamal also said the toughest batsman he has faced is Azam Khan.

Which is why, his words should not be taken seriously.

Meanwhile, Tendulkar has said that the toughest bowler he has ever faced is Hansie Cronje. Some say he also said Abdul Razzaq

From now on, the words of Sachin should not be taken seriously.

 

[mominsaigol]

Meanwhile, Tendulkar has said that the toughest bowler he has ever faced is Hansie Cronje. Some say he also said Abdul Razzaq

From now on, the words of Sachin should not be taken seriously.

Tbf, Sachin did say Wasim Akram was the best bowler he has seen, It's just Hansie Cronjie ans Abdul Razzaq we're more difficult for him as in cronjie case he dismissed Sachin 8x while he was set.

Sachin said this and then proceeded to say it cause he highlighted how Swing, Reverse swing, Pace, Bounce and variation such as yorkers Do not bother him, But it's difficult for him to adjust to medium pacers who can bowl bounce because by the time cronjie came on Sachin was use to playing spinners or Pacers. It was difficult to adjust to medium for him.

Jamal's case is similar, he isn't saying Azam Khan is the best batsmen of Pakistan just that for him Azam is the most difficult batter he's faced.

Because a bowler is claiming that a guy with a batting avg of just 8 runs per match in international cricket is the toughest batsman he has ever faced.

That not only shows his thinking.

I dont understand that why do you keep assuming i defend Babar as a captain.

I find Babar to be a bad captain. An Aggressive captain is NOT a synonym for being a Good captain.

 

[Local.Dada]

Meanwhile, Tendulkar has said that the toughest bowler he has ever faced is Hansie Cronje. Some say he also said Abdul Razzaq

From now on, the words of Sachin should not be taken seriously.

He didn’t say as in they were these ATG bowlers. What basically the jist of what he meant was those bowling line ups-SA and Pak in his era were so good that you couldn’t relax and after he survived and played out Donald, Pollock,Wasim, Waqar ,Saqlain etc he would get out to these guys who were skillful in their own right. He even rates Afridi highly as a bowler even though never seen him struggle a lot against him.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Shan is obviously a bit sharper compared to Babar Azam but the problem is that we can't keep him in white-ball cricket because he can't justify his position.

 

[mominsaigol]

Shan is obviously a bit sharper compared to Babar Azam but the problem is that we can't keep him in white-ball cricket because he can't justify his position.

Tbf, no one justifies their position. He'll probs be superior to Usman Khan in t20.

In odi he doesn't warrant a position, and nor does he in test.

But our t20 side is that bad

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Tbf, no one justifies their position. He'll probs be superior to Usman Khan in t20.

In odi he doesn't warrant a position, and nor does he in test.

But our t20 side is that bad

even a piece of block is better compare to Usman tbh shan is wayyy better than him

 

[mominsaigol]

even a piece of block is better compare to Usman tbh shan is wayyy better than him

Truth be told I do not mind Shan if he continues this bazzball approach, but then he shouldn't bat at the top order.

Shan in the test series did score a couple of half centuries at a reasonable fast pace for Test and in pdi and t20 he tries to score fast too.

The issue is, the situation in t20 is so bad that Shan seems like a reasonable option.

Odi should be a closed door for him though, Abdullah, Saud, Fakhar shut the door on him. For Test they should replace him for Kamran Ghulam or Shabzada Farhan

 

[Rana]

He didn’t say as in they were these ATG bowlers. What basically the jist of what he meant was those bowling line ups-SA and Pak in his era were so good that you couldn’t relax and after he survived and played out Donald, Pollock,Wasim, Waqar ,Saqlain etc he would get out to these guys who were skillful in their own right. He even rates Afridi highly as a bowler even though never seen him struggle a lot against him.

Did Jamal say Azam khan is an ATG batsman??????!?

 

[Local.Dada]

Did Jamal say Azam khan is an ATG batsman??????!?

I don’t see anything wrong with what he said.

 

[pakistani pride]

Shan had a golden chance to really cement his place/replace Babar when he was well set and had a start during the WT20 final vs Eng. All he had to do was stay there till the end and take singles/doubles. The boundary ball is always there when set. He could have taken Pak to 160. That would have been a winning score, given the Pak bowling attack back then.

But these guys fail to capture the moment.

 

[Major]

Meanwhile, Tendulkar has said that the toughest bowler he has ever faced is Hansie Cronje. Some say he also said Abdul Razzaq

From now on, the words of Sachin should not be taken seriously.

Aamir Jamal is now equivalent to Tendulkar ) ) )

 

[moghul]

Babar is not at all a captaincy material.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Aamer said that babar is a defensive captain. Yes, he is because he is afraid to go out of the way to do new things. He is stuck in 90s cricket. Babar will never be able to counter England's Bazball anywhere with his captaincy.

Captaincy is just not his thing. Not saying that Shan is a GOAT but he just had 1 series t captain and it is not enough to judge him atm.

 

[Rana]

Aamir Jamal is now equivalent to Tendulkar ) ) )

Yeah I mean ‘professional cricketers opinion’ on other cricketers cares about the status of a player when making it???

 

[mominsaigol]

Aamir Jamal is now equivalent to Tendulkar ) ) )

Bro, No one said one is better then the other.

Tendulkar even said wasim akram is the best bowler he's ever seen however, Cronjie and Razzaq troubled Tendulkar more.

Tendulkar went indepth explaining why and why these 2 dismissed him multiple times because it was extremely difficult for him to constantly adjust to playing 140-150kph pacers and 90KPH spinners and then all of the sudden out of the blue be expected to deal with 128KPH line and length + bounce deliveries from these 2.

Even though he's an atg batsmen, this is a metric he struggled with.

Jamal isn't saying Azam > Babar and Rizwan or any aussie batter but you can understand why he said this, Azam Khan in PSL has taken Jamal to the cleaners because Jamal isn't suited for t20 bowling he's primarily suited for Test, and secondly Even on batter friendly pitches and low quality leagues where shaheen Shah afridi is batting like butler, Babar and rizwan typically do not attack even in those leagues and just guide it to square.

Azam khan does which makes him more difficult to bowl to.

Afghanistan struggle bowling to Maxwell over even Travis and Warner who in recent times have been walking wickets to them. That doesn't mean Maxwell is superior to Travis and Warner as a batsmen, but Afghanistani bowlers defo struggle with Maxwell 10x more then they do other aussie bats.

 

[Rana]

Bro, No one said one is better then the other.

Tendulkar even said wasim akram is the best bowler he's ever seen however, Cronjie and Razzaq troubled Tendulkar more.

Tendulkar went indepth explaining why and why these 2 dismissed him multiple times because it was extremely difficult for him to constantly adjust to playing 140-150kph pacers and 90KPH spinners and then all of the sudden out of the blue be expected to deal with 128KPH line and length + bounce deliveries from these 2.

Even though he's an atg batsmen, this is a metric he struggled with.

Jamal isn't saying Azam > Babar and Rizwan or any aussie batter but you can understand why he said this, Azam Khan in PSL has taken Jamal to the cleaners because Jamal isn't suited for t20 bowling he's primarily suited for Test, and secondly Even on batter friendly pitches and low quality leagues where shaheen Shah afridi is batting like butler, Babar and rizwan typically do not attack even in those leagues and just guide it to square.

Azam khan does which makes him more difficult to bowl to.

Afghanistan struggle bowling to Maxwell over even Travis and Warner who in recent times have been walking wickets to them. That doesn't mean Maxwell is superior to Travis and Warner as a batsmen, but Afghanistani bowlers defo struggle with Maxwell 10x more then they do other aussie bats.

Bro I love the way you actually make an effort to educate people here.

Great poster

 

[aukhan]

Shan is clearly far ahead as a leader and captain. Babar should only focus on improving his selfish batting but his lalach will ensure Pakistan will remain in crisis for the next 3-4 years. There is no hope as long as this low intellect guy is in a leadership role.

 

[mominsaigol]

Bro I love the way you actually make an effort to educate people here.

Great poster

Thanks, I try to break things down bit by bit and piece by piece.

 

[Deewana Mastana]

Shan is better tactically and more attacking.

This was our best tour of Australia in a while, under Babar's captaincy we were so flat in Australia.

Shan's captaincy is good, but as a player he doesn't make it. It's sort of similar to Sarfaraz post 2017 in LOs.

 

[Misia]

Shan all day long

 

[shariqnoor]

bro again, aggressive and defensive captaincy has nothing to do with Batting strike rate. This term has been misused in the subcontinent. Infact, people even think aggressive capttaincy means good captaincy, and defensive captaincy means bad captaincy.


I agree with your second para. However with the rest i disagree with.

Babar was overly aggresive, which is why we lost alot of games. Had he been defensive, we would had done better.

There were matches where Imad should had open the spell, but Babar still went with Shaheen. There were moments where we should had played a 6th bowling option but Babar went with 5 bowlers.

Babar does go with a fixed plan and doesnt deter from that, so i agree with your last para, but Babar was always aggressive, which does not mean he was good.

Aggressive = Good
Defensive = Bad

That's literally the definition used by 99% of people in the subcontinent. It's incredible how many who are well-educated can't even differentiate what constitutes good and what constitutes bad captaincy.

Aggression or Defensiveness doesn't stem from how many fielders you put in the slip cordon. It stems from adaptability. You have 50 runs to defend and the last pair is on the crease with one of the batsman being Jos Buttler. Is spreading the field out on the last 2 balls of the over for Buttler aggressive or defensive captaincy? Subcontinent people would have you believe that it's defensive captaincy.

Aggressive captaincy is characterized by a proactive and bold approach to leadership on the field that emanates from reacting to different situations during the game. The problem I see with Babar is that he's a template captain. He comes into matches with a set routine of who he is going to bowl and when, irrespective of the match situation. The same goes for his field placements. He will have 2 slips right from the outset and have them removed once 3 boundaries are hit. He will not bring back his regular bowlers even if the opposition is 50/5 because in his mind he's thinking of who to bowl in the 18th, 19th, and 20th over rather than finishing the innings early.

Imran Khan is considered one of the more aggressive captains in Pakistan yet if you just went by his stats, it wouldn't make you stand up and say wow what a record. Imran's aggression lay not in setting attacking fields or giving verbal barrages but in knowing when and how to adapt. He saw how the team was collapsing at the top in '92 and he thought of a way to stem that flow by having himself and Javed bat at 3 and 4 to deadbat everything. Had that not worked, most people would've flipped right now and said he was being too defensive. But was it defensive? He was attacking but in a different way.

Jose Mourinho is widely considered to be a park-the-bus coach (basically defensive in cricketing terms). Yet his team scored the most goals and conceded the fewest in the 2005/06 PL season. In 2011/12 season with Real Madrid his team scored the most goals (121) and conceded only 32. Is Jose defensive? In a certain way yes, but he's an attacking coach in a different way. People need to realize that aggression doesn't mean going gung-ho.

Shan during the Australian series showed adaptability. He showed presence of mind to assess the evolving game situations. Does that mean I endorse him for captaincy? No, because he doesn't merit a place in the side. However, if we are just comparing captaincy levels between him and Babar, then Shan is superior.

 

[mominsaigol]

Aggressive = Good
Defensive = Bad

That's literally the definition used by 99% of people in the subcontinent. It's incredible how many who are well-educated can't even differentiate what constitutes good and what constitutes bad captaincy.

Aggression or Defensiveness doesn't stem from how many fielders you put in the slip cordon. It stems from adaptability. You have 50 runs to defend and the last pair is on the crease with one of the batsman being Jos Buttler. Is spreading the field out on the last 2 balls of the over for Buttler aggressive or defensive captaincy? Subcontinent people would have you believe that it's defensive captaincy.

Aggressive captaincy is characterized by a proactive and bold approach to leadership on the field that emanates from reacting to different situations during the game. The problem I see with Babar is that he's a template captain. He comes into matches with a set routine of who he is going to bowl and when, irrespective of the match situation. The same goes for his field placements. He will have 2 slips right from the outset and have them removed once 3 boundaries are hit. He will not bring back his regular bowlers even if the opposition is 50/5 because in his mind he's thinking of who to bowl in the 18th, 19th, and 20th over rather than finishing the innings early.

Imran Khan is considered one of the more aggressive captains in Pakistan yet if you just went by his stats, it wouldn't make you stand up and say wow what a record. Imran's aggression lay not in setting attacking fields or giving verbal barrages but in knowing when and how to adapt. He saw how the team was collapsing at the top in '92 and he thought of a way to stem that flow by having himself and Javed bat at 3 and 4 to deadbat everything. Had that not worked, most people would've flipped right now and said he was being too defensive. But was it defensive? He was attacking but in a different way.

Jose Mourinho is widely considered to be a park-the-bus coach (basically defensive in cricketing terms). Yet his team scored the most goals and conceded the fewest in the 2005/06 PL season. In 2011/12 season with Real Madrid his team scored the most goals (121) and conceded only 32. Is Jose defensive? In a certain way yes, but he's an attacking coach in a different way. People need to realize that aggression doesn't mean going gung-ho.

Shan during the Australian series showed adaptability. He showed presence of mind to assess the evolving game situations. Does that mean I endorse him for captaincy? No, because he doesn't merit a place in the side. However, if we are just comparing captaincy levels between him and Babar, then Shan is superior.

Your cricketing views are massively outdated. As @Rana Pointed out this is not the 1990's anymore.

Babar opting for shaheen over imad opening the bowling in some instances like @Major Suggested is not the sign of bobby being an aggressive captain.

The reason Imad use to open the bowling back in Mickey's era was because his darter line and length meant that batters wouldn't have free space to maneuver the ball, So their likely to play a risky shot and get out. Imad back in 2016-2018 was known for getting 1 to 2 wickets in the first over. He was used as an aggressive option and not a defensive one.

Infact babar utilising Imad around 12th when batters are set and looking to attack solely because Imad is economical is a sign of defensive captaincy since he's bringing imad on to be economical and restrict rr rather then take wickets.

Defensive captaincy aka trying to be economical, Trying to restrict RR, trying to put the opposition under pressure and looking for them to make a mistake like Misbah would do back in 2012-2015, won't work anymore.

India would have lost against Australia and against SA in the final had They been defensive. Theirs a reason they brought Bumrah on by the 16th in both games for klaseen, Miller and Travis head rather then going by the book and waiting for Bumrah to bowl 18th and 20th, Because these 3 would have chased it regardless of RR had they not gotten out.

 

[Rana]

How can Babar be an aggressive captain if his own players admit that Babar Bhai’s approach is to save yourself first?

 

[Rana]

How can Babar be an aggressive captain if his strategy mainly in T20 was to eat up 70% of the deliveries and leave 30% for the rest because of uncertainty with everyone down the order?

 

[Rana]

How can Babar be an aggressive captain when England absolutely smashed his team 3-0 on tracks where it was easier to draw a Test?

 

[Rana]

How can Babar be an aggressive captain if his Pace Bowling all rounder has never been asked to bat at number 6 or higher? He is too scared to pick and develop a proper number 6 who is a seamer, and then be bold enough to pick 2 quality spinners and 2 out and out seamers??

 

[mominsaigol]

How can Babar be an aggressive captain if his own players admit that Babar Bhai’s approach is to save yourself first?

Babar is an aggressive captain.

Meanwhile at the toss

So Babar what have you decided?

Babar: Yes uhh we'll chase because I don't know how to defend, I will try my best to restrict the opposition to 270 in a 300 on par era and when I bat ill try not to be 10 runs short.

 

[mominsaigol]

How can Babar be an aggressive captain if his strategy mainly in T20 was to eat up 70% of the deliveries and leave 30% for the rest because of uncertainty with everyone down the order?

How can Babar be an aggressive captain when England absolutely smashed his team 3-0 on tracks where it was easier to draw a Test?

How can Babar be an aggressive captain if his Pace Bowling all rounder has never been asked to bat at number 6 or higher? He is too scared to pick and develop a proper number 6 who is a seamer, and then be bold enough to pick 2 quality spinners and 2 out and out seamers??

1) His strategy is to bat through till the 20th which obviously does not work 9 out of 10 games especially against good oppositions.

2) TBF, England scoring 500 on the first day meant death, their was no way pakistan were going to bat 2x for 4 days straight. It was game over as soon as that happened.

3) He's not scared, he's a dosti yaari captain. No 1, no 2, No 5 and no 6 are permanently secured for Himself, Rizwan, Shadab and Chacha.

 

[Rana]

Babar is an aggressive captain.

Meanwhile at the toss

So Babar what have you decided?

Babar: Yes uhh we'll chase because I don't know how to defend, I will try my best to restrict the opposition to 270 in a 300 on par era and when I bat ill try not to be 10 runs short.

That was some aggressive captaincy against Afghanistan defending 280 @Major ?

 

[Major]

Aggressive = Good
Defensive = Bad

That's literally the definition used by 99% of people in the subcontinent. It's incredible how many who are well-educated can't even differentiate what constitutes good and what constitutes bad captaincy.

Aggression or Defensiveness doesn't stem from how many fielders you put in the slip cordon. It stems from adaptability. You have 50 runs to defend and the last pair is on the crease with one of the batsman being Jos Buttler. Is spreading the field out on the last 2 balls of the over for Buttler aggressive or defensive captaincy? Subcontinent people would have you believe that it's defensive captaincy.

Aggressive captaincy is characterized by a proactive and bold approach to leadership on the field that emanates from reacting to different situations during the game. The problem I see with Babar is that he's a template captain. He comes into matches with a set routine of who he is going to bowl and when, irrespective of the match situation. The same goes for his field placements. He will have 2 slips right from the outset and have them removed once 3 boundaries are hit. He will not bring back his regular bowlers even if the opposition is 50/5 because in his mind he's thinking of who to bowl in the 18th, 19th, and 20th over rather than finishing the innings early.

Imran Khan is considered one of the more aggressive captains in Pakistan yet if you just went by his stats, it wouldn't make you stand up and say wow what a record. Imran's aggression lay not in setting attacking fields or giving verbal barrages but in knowing when and how to adapt. He saw how the team was collapsing at the top in '92 and he thought of a way to stem that flow by having himself and Javed bat at 3 and 4 to deadbat everything. Had that not worked, most people would've flipped right now and said he was being too defensive. But was it defensive? He was attacking but in a different way.

Jose Mourinho is widely considered to be a park-the-bus coach (basically defensive in cricketing terms). Yet his team scored the most goals and conceded the fewest in the 2005/06 PL season. In 2011/12 season with Real Madrid his team scored the most goals (121) and conceded only 32. Is Jose defensive? In a certain way yes, but he's an attacking coach in a different way. People need to realize that aggression doesn't mean going gung-ho.

Shan during the Australian series showed adaptability. He showed presence of mind to assess the evolving game situations. Does that mean I endorse him for captaincy? No, because he doesn't merit a place in the side. However, if we are just comparing captaincy levels between him and Babar, then Shan is superior.

potw

 

[mominsaigol]

potw

The fact that you guys go all the way back to 1992 or back to 2012-2013 to talk about aggressive appraoches shows how outdated your knowledge is.

It's the equivalent of saying the best way to communicate with someone in a long distance relationship is to send them a mail by post as it was the best method back in 1900.

Clearly this method sucks now that we have the Internet and messaging platforms + Phone calls and video chats are on speed dial.

Imran Khan's dead bat approach will not work in this era for obvious reasons

 

[Rana]

The fact that you guys go all the way back to 1992 or back to 2012-2013 to talk about aggressive appraoches shows how outdated your knowledge is.

It's the equivalent of saying the best way to communicate with someone in a long distance relationship is to send them a mail by post as it was the best method back in 1900.

Clearly this method sucks now that we have the Internet and messaging platforms + Phone calls and video chats are on speed dial.

Imran Khan's dead bat approach will not work in this era for obvious reasons

Typically these guys scratch each other’s back the way the SNGPL network works

Aggressive Captaincy= ‘good captaincy in the eyes of dumb posters’ according to the guy. What defensive captain is a good captain in the current world scenario according to those that have an educational view on this?

 

[Rana]

‘Rohit Sharma is a defensive captain because he’s a good captain according to @shariqnoor ‘s educated reading of the game’

‘Babar Azam is a aggressive captain but a bad captain according to @shariqnoor ‘s reading of the game…’


How does any of this waffle make sense?

 

[Rana]

Aggressive = Good
Defensive = Bad

That's literally the definition used by 99% of people in the subcontinent. It's incredible how many who are well-educated can't even differentiate what constitutes good and what constitutes bad captaincy.

Aggression or Defensiveness doesn't stem from how many fielders you put in the slip cordon. It stems from adaptability. You have 50 runs to defend and the last pair is on the crease with one of the batsman being Jos Buttler. Is spreading the field out on the last 2 balls of the over for Buttler aggressive or defensive captaincy? Subcontinent people would have you believe that it's defensive captaincy.

Aggressive captaincy is characterized by a proactive and bold approach to leadership on the field that emanates from reacting to different situations during the game. The problem I see with Babar is that he's a template captain. He comes into matches with a set routine of who he is going to bowl and when, irrespective of the match situation. The same goes for his field placements. He will have 2 slips right from the outset and have them removed once 3 boundaries are hit. He will not bring back his regular bowlers even if the opposition is 50/5 because in his mind he's thinking of who to bowl in the 18th, 19th, and 20th over rather than finishing the innings early.

Imran Khan is considered one of the more aggressive captains in Pakistan yet if you just went by his stats, it wouldn't make you stand up and say wow what a record. Imran's aggression lay not in setting attacking fields or giving verbal barrages but in knowing when and how to adapt. He saw how the team was collapsing at the top in '92 and he thought of a way to stem that flow by having himself and Javed bat at 3 and 4 to deadbat everything. Had that not worked, most people would've flipped right now and said he was being too defensive. But was it defensive? He was attacking but in a different way.

Jose Mourinho is widely considered to be a park-the-bus coach (basically defensive in cricketing terms). Yet his team scored the most goals and conceded the fewest in the 2005/06 PL season. In 2011/12 season with Real Madrid his team scored the most goals (121) and conceded only 32. Is Jose defensive? In a certain way yes, but he's an attacking coach in a different way. People need to realize that aggression doesn't mean going gung-ho.

Shan during the Australian series showed adaptability. He showed presence of mind to assess the evolving game situations. Does that mean I endorse him for captaincy? No, because he doesn't merit a place in the side. However, if we are just comparing captaincy levels between him and Babar, then Shan is superior.

Right now, which defensive captain in 2024 is a good captain? Give an example. Let’s see you make sense of this waffle

 

[mominsaigol]

Typically these guys scratch each other’s back the way the SNGPL network works

Aggressive Captaincy= ‘good captaincy in the eyes of dumb posters’ according to the guy. What defensive captain is a good captain in the current world scenario according to those that have an educational view on this?

Bro @shariqnoor said Imran Khan's iconic dead bat game with Miandad is a DIFFERENT FORM OF AGGRESSION.

So apparently these 2 have no understanding of what aggression even means because they think defense = Aggression and aggression also = Aggression.

IK's game was one of the few instances Both batters were completly on the defensive and on the backfoot. Their was no aggression lol.

Defensive captaincy =/= Bad captaincy, but they don't understand that unlike the past where the situation depended on the RR, nowadays it depends on the player ever since Morgan revolutionised an entire team playing aggressive cricket.

For someone like Kohli, Defensive captaincy is the best bet since his brain after hitting a 6 is usually to dab it for a single next delivery, Hence for Kohli the goal is to focus on restricting singles, increasing RR and forcing the guy to get out of his comfort zone and loft or come down the crease where he'll likely get out the most.

For someone like Travis or Klaseen, the RR won't matter, Don't bother trying to restrict singles with them as their first thought will be to loft it into the cleaners, Hence for Travis the best bet is to place fielders in the outer ring especially on the offside since that's his strength.

This Misbah appraoch of scoring 220-250 batting first, then Defend it by keeping the opposition to 160-3 by 30th and then bowling ajmal and chuckers in the final 20th to bowl the opposition out won't work anymore, when England transformed the game to the point that they'll likely finish the game by the 25th.

In 2019 they were literally averaging 112-1 after every 12 overs in an Odi game?

 

[mominsaigol]

‘Rohit Sharma is a defensive captain because he’s a good captain according to @shariqnoor ‘s educated reading of the game’

‘Babar Azam is a aggressive captain but a bad captain according to @shariqnoor ‘s reading of the game…’


How does any of this waffle make sense?

It's funny cause Rohit Sharma is literally the most aggressive captain that India has ever had.

He bowled Bumrah as soon as Travis Head and Klaseen did their Fireworks, rather then sticking to the formula of bowling Bumrah first 2 and last 2.

And he's literally the best utiliser of the PP especially in Indian conditions on the planet. It's also why Rohit is slightly on the poor side in test and why Kohli in test is superior to him as a captain but inferior to him in whiteball.

Rohit's appraoch doesn't transition to test very well.

 

[mominsaigol]

Right now, which defensive captain in 2024 is a good captain? Give an example. Let’s see you make sense of this waffle

I'll answer since these guys have no clue on what defensive entails but are trying to educate me on it.

Pat Cummings is a great example of being a great defensive captain + aggressive captain since he usually gets into the minds of every batter. In the final of the WC, you could clearly tell he was being extra aggressive on trying to take wickets at the other end, but for KL rahul he was just focusing on keeping Rahul on strike and preventing singles, Oat Cummings knew the linger Rahul stays, the bigger the aussie advantage will be.

Williamson is another great example who moves both appraoches, he should have won 2019 wc tbf.

As for England and India, Both are ultra aggressive following the template of outbatting the opposition or bowling them out as quickly as possible as seem during his exploits against SA and Sri lanka.

The only captain on the planet excluding Minnows who is Defensive 24/7 in every single approach is Babar Azam, The only time I've seen Babar aggressive was in the super over which was the one time pakistan needed to be defensive by bowling Naseem.

Babar appraoch during wc 2023 was to bat at a rr of 5 till the 30th and then chase 180+ in the final 20 which doesn't work in odi because wickets have fallen, fielders are up, Ball is old and you have chacha, Rizwan and shafab batting lol. That's why they collapsed like a house of cards againat aus and eng( Worked only once against sri lanka)

In terms of Onfield captaincy, it's impossible to determine what's even going on since babar's decisions have no rhyme or reason to them, Like bowling Nawaz who hadn't taken a single wicket for 3 games in a row to take the final wicket against SA even though Usama mir had overs left, you burnt your pacers but Usama had 2 wickets in that game so might as well wager.