BCCI demands $42m in damages from WICB

[adit_sh]

Where did the WI return the money in this case?
That's why the bcci is fighting this case, to get it's money back

no sorry. They are asking the loss from the tv rights for the test matches and T20. If BCCI had taken the money from the sponsors, they better return them. The problem is BCCI is asking the money that all the sponsors and TV rights would end up making if the entire series happened which is notional and thats exactly what can be proved to the court.

 

[battler]

The problem with your solution is that the WICB had influence in the quality of the team to be provided. They chose to play brinkmanship thinking that the players would not play hardball. In other words they used the fact that the players were on tour as leverage in internal negotiations. Very unprofessional and I can understand why the BCCI, or any organisation, would be wary of engaging in further business with a body that is so shambolic.

That's right, it's not like a natural disaster struck the WI, something like an earthquake happend and injured the players or something or anything which was beyond the control of the WICB.
WICB have no standing on this whatsoever.

 

[OZGOD]

What is the best team. Did WICB signed the contract with all the names of 15 member team that they are going to send? Can you confirm that.

You cannot prove from BCCI per say that this is the best team and not the other.

Let's say that Cricket OZ had signed an agreement to play Pakistan in the UAE some time ago. After the first Test win by Pakistan Cricket OZ decides to pull all the players out of the UAE to prepare for the ODI series with South Africa and replaces them all with first class players (basically Australia A). As a result GEO decides to not carry the matches on TV and the PCB is unable to find replacements to carry the matches at a late stage, hence missing out on lucrative and badly needed TV revenue. Additionally when people in the UAE find out that the Aus team is composed of players they have never heard of nobody shows up to the ground even though they are giving tickets away for free. You are ok with this?

 

[CricketAnalyst]

No, they cannot. In practical terms they can prevent the WI from getting revenue by refusing to tour or host them. But they can't enforce the judgement of an Indian court on a foreign party.

That's way too simplistic.

All commercial contracts have jurisdiction clauses and I can bet my bottom dollar the jurisdiction clause here will specify either New Delhi HC or Bombay HC. Furthermore, even if there wasn't a jurisdiction clause, there is a clear cause of action arising in India and the Indian Courts have jurisdiction. The relevant courts in West Indies would recognize this and enforce the award against the WICB.

International commerce would grind to a halt if commercial disputes could be evaded just by being a foreign party.

 

[battler]

What is the best team. Did WICB signed the contract with all the names of 15 member team that they are going to send? Can you confirm that.

You cannot prove from BCCI per say that this is the best team and not the other.

They might not have but best team means 'their current international players' and not domestic ones, that is pretty logical.

 

[adit_sh]

I'm really confused here. So organisations can break contracts "because it's not their fault, their employees wouldn't listen to them" and there is no ramification for their actions? That's what some people are suggesting. Forget this is the BCCI for a second. I know we all hate their guts but try to think impartially for a second. This behaviour is acceptable?

No you got me completely wrong. Am not defending WICB here. I am saying BCCI cannot prove anything in the court because WI were ready to send the best team available at that moment.
This matter cannot be solved legally but probably by applying sanctions through ICC and cutting them their deals.

 

[battler]

no sorry. They are asking the loss from the tv rights for the test matches and T20. If BCCI had taken the money from the sponsors, they better return them. The problem is BCCI is asking the money that all the sponsors and TV rights would end up making if the entire series happened which is notional and thats exactly what can be proved to the court.

It's not notional because the sponsors have already paid bcci the money for all the 5 odi matches, one t20 and 3 tests.
So i don't know what's notional about it, sponsors have lost 'real' money.

 

[CricketAnalyst]

Let's say that Cricket OZ had signed an agreement to play Pakistan in the UAE some time ago. After the first Test win by Pakistan Cricket OZ decides to pull all the players out of the UAE to prepare for the ODI series with South Africa and replaces them all with first class players (basically Australia A). As a result GEO decides to not carry the matches on TV and the PCB is unable to find replacements to carry the matches at a late stage, hence missing out on lucrative and badly needed TV revenue. Additionally when people in the UAE find out that the Aus team is composed of players they have never heard of nobody shows up to the ground even though they are giving tickets away for free. You are ok with this?

I agree. This is a question of fact which can be debated in court. The BCCI can't invite me and my chums to play for India and then claim that there is no objective standard to assess whether I am better than Dhoni or not. If you promise to send a WI team on tour and then send a substantially inferior team, it will just be treated as a question of fact in the Court and the Court would side with whoever's argument is most convincing, and in this case the BCCI's argument will be more convincing to any reasonable person.

 

[CricketAnalyst]

No you got me completely wrong. Am not defending WICB here. I am saying BCCI cannot prove anything in the court because WI were ready to send the best team available at that moment.
This matter cannot be solved legally but probably by applying sanctions through ICC and cutting them their deals.

What's more firing all your employees and then saying nobody is available to fulfill a contract isn't an argument that will convince any commercial court or arbitration panel.

 

[adit_sh]

It's not notional because the sponsors have already paid bcci the money for all the 5 matches, one t20 and 3 tests.
So i don't know what's notional about it, sponsors have lost 'real' money.

Whom have the sponsors paid? To bcci? - return their money for the remaining matches. You cannot claim those profits and bill WICB and thats exactly happening in this case which has mounted to 40mUSD

 

[adit_sh]

Let's say that Cricket OZ had signed an agreement to play Pakistan in the UAE some time ago. After the first Test win by Pakistan Cricket OZ decides to pull all the players out of the UAE to prepare for the ODI series with South Africa and replaces them all with first class players (basically Australia A). As a result GEO decides to not carry the matches on TV and the PCB is unable to find replacements to carry the matches at a late stage, hence missing out on lucrative and badly needed TV revenue. Additionally when people in the UAE find out that the Aus team is composed of players they have never heard of nobody shows up to the ground even though they are giving tickets away for free. You are ok with this?

Lets not be black & white in this case. If WICB lawyers represent to fight bcci in court then this is what they should argue.
- Some players are fired on discipline
- Some players are called back on lack of form
- the next best team proposedly had Gayle/Sarwan/Chandrepaul and few others who have played international matches and some going to debut for the first time.

It would not be easy to prove that this is a 2nd string team

 

[battler]

Whom have the sponsors paid? To bcci? - return their money for the remaining matches. You cannot claim those profits and bill WICB and thats exactly happening in this case which has mounted to 40mUSD

Do u even know why the sponsors agreed to pay bcci the money?
Because bcci had a signed contract from the west indies cricket board commiting to send their best team for ALL the matches.
There is nothing notional about this, everything is in writing.
I can't believe I'm arguing with you on this!

 

[CricketAnalyst]

Whom have the sponsors paid? To bcci? - return their money for the remaining matches. You cannot claim those profits and bill WICB and thats exactly happening in this case which has mounted to 40mUSD

This is just a bizzare argument. BCCI would have made that money without needing to return it, so obviously they are entitled to keep it. They have made a profit organizing an event which was cancelled by WICB due to their internal issues (which are irrelevant as far as their legal obligation is concerned.

If you want to argue just for the sake of it, go ahead, but that's not how Courts or the law work. They signed a contract, haven't substantially fulfilled it and BCCI have suffered damages. That's all a Court will need to rule in favour of BCCI, which is exactly what will happen here.

 

[adit_sh]

What's more firing all your employees and then saying nobody is available to fulfill a contract isn't an argument that will convince any commercial court or arbitration panel.

Firing contracted employees can happen anytime on discipline. They will say that the best team available at that moment is ready to fill the remaining part of the contract.

 

[adit_sh]

ok we will see who wins in the court if this goes that far.

My view WICB hires a proper lawyer then they would win the case or atleast the losses would be far reduced. Ram Jeth?

 

[CricketAnalyst]

Firing contracted employees can happen anytime on discipline. They will say that the best team available at that moment is ready to fill the remaining part of the contract.

It's an internal matter and the contracting party is responsible for it. If I contract with you to send a catering staff and then in the morning I fire them all, I can't claim that it's not my fault. Even if they all quit, you still can't claim that.

You're not understanding the nature of contract law. When you sign a contract to provide a service, failure to do so is your responsibility. It doesn't matter if it was your fault or not. If they couldn't ensure the team they are legally responsible.

Furthermore in contracts for personal service it's accepted law that it's the special quality of the individual that matters. If a nightclub contracts with a company to ensure Deepika Padukone performs at New Years Night, they can't then send the owner's sister and say 'Sorry Deepika behaved unreasonably'. It just doesn't matter who's fault it was, they contracted to provide the service, they failed to do so, hence they are liable, that's all there is to it.

 

[battler]

ok we will see who wins in the court if this goes that far.

My view WICB hires a proper lawyer then they would win the case or atleast the losses would be far reduced. Ram Jeth?

Take my word for it WICB have not standing on this case, this is a simple case of violation of contract and the WICB will be sued if they go to court.

 

[CricketAnalyst]

ok we will see who wins in the court if this goes that far.

My view WICB hires a proper lawyer then they would win the case or atleast the losses would be far reduced. Ram Jeth?

They probably won't want to pay his (or any decent senior's) fees.

 

[Noobosauras]

What do you mean by that exactly?


On topic: would be interesting to see how this all unfolds. Could say the west indies are screwed but on the other hand, not a lol of icc revenue seems to go back into the game there anyway.

Kerala has backwaters (practically islands)

 

[adit_sh]

It's an internal matter and the contracting party is responsible for it. If I contract with you to send a catering staff and then in the morning I fire them all, I can't claim that it's not my fault. Even if they all quit, you still can't claim that.

You're not understanding the nature of contract law. When you sign a contract to provide a service, failure to do so is your responsibility. It doesn't matter if it was your fault or not. If they couldn't ensure the team they are legally responsible.

Furthermore in contracts for personal service it's accepted law that it's the special quality of the individual that matters. If a nightclub contracts with a company to ensure Deepika Padukone performs at New Years Night, they can't then send the owner's sister and say 'Sorry Deepika behaved unreasonably'. It just doesn't matter who's fault it was, they contracted to provide the service, they failed to do so, hence they are liable, that's all there is to it.

My argument is If the contract names Deepika to dance then "yes". Catering staffs can be fired as long as the food is made with any catering staff. I think you may not be able to claim that you want the same catering staff unless the caterers names are mentioned in the contract. Not convincing enough if the person wants the food to be cooked by the same catering staff.

 

[Noobosauras]

Whom have the sponsors paid? To bcci? - return their money for the remaining matches. You cannot claim those profits and bill WICB and thats exactly happening in this case which has mounted to 40mUSD

lol! you are pretty naive!
It is a loss for BCCI because it had opportunity cost of BCCI. The time slot given to WICB could have been given to some other board to earn similar cashflow.
WICB caused a loss to BCCI here.

Lets not be black & white in this case. If WICB lawyers represent to fight bcci in court then this is what they should argue.
- Some players are fired on discipline
- Some players are called back on lack of form
- the next best team proposedly had Gayle/Sarwan/Chandrepaul and few others who have played international matches and some going to debut for the first time.

It would not be easy to prove that this is a 2nd string team

This is pure speculation especially the fact that they would have reached India match fit for the next game which was hardly 2 days later.
Also, if I know BCCI, they are quite particular about the money, had WICB offered any decent team they would have accepted it. The fact they rejected that, and took a $40 million punch on the face means they must have had a pretty strong case.

 

[Noobosauras]

My argument is If the contract names Deepika to dance then "yes". Catering staffs can be fired as long as the food is made with any catering staff. I think you may not be able to claim that you want the same catering staff unless the caterers names are mentioned in the contract. Not convincing enough if the person wants the food to be cooked by the same catering staff.

LOL seriously you are comparing professional sports contracts with catering contracts??

Atleast think before you type.

 

[soso_killer]

The ftp is definitely legally binding.
Remember is a document signed between two member boards.
From where I come from anytime you sign a document, then you're liable to legal implications.

No one has had the balls to sue the BCCI for lost in earnings in their endeavors of canceling/shortening tours.
Was disappointed when CSA also chose the cowardice approach.

 

[Thivagar]

WI should ask Bravo and other IPL players from their team to pay up that $42 millions or they lose their NOC for IPLs.

If Bravo, Pollard, Gayle and Narine's don't have enough money to settle $42 million, then loan should be taken out in their name and their house, cars, and etc shall be sold at auction . Very unlikable fellas

 

[battler]

Edit.


.

 

[battler]

lol! you are pretty naive!
It is a loss for BCCI because it had opportunity cost of BCCI. The time slot given to WICB could have been given to some other board to earn similar cashflow.
WICB caused a loss to BCCI here.

Add to that the loss of reputation the bcci have suffered in terms of future engagements with sponsors that would affect them from getting a lucrative deal next time round

 

[Thivagar]

But did you notice BCCI didn't ban WI players from IPL?

Cuz that would have hurt the IPL for missing more stars and hence decreased interest in IPL and more financial losses.

Because BCCI and frankly everyone who follows cricket knows that WI players care more about IPL than WI. Remember when WI players tour Apartheid South Africa ? That is like current Pakistan team touring Israel for a cricket match and 2 times worse.

 

[OZGOD]

Lets not be black & white in this case. If WICB lawyers represent to fight bcci in court then this is what they should argue.
- Some players are fired on discipline
- Some players are called back on lack of form
- the next best team proposedly had Gayle/Sarwan/Chandrepaul and few others who have played international matches and some going to debut for the first time.

It would not be easy to prove that this is a 2nd string team

Unfortunately when it comes to breaking contracts it is usually black and white. Because once you start to make exceptions for things it creates precedents for similar things to happen in the future. It's one thing if the team is missing a few players, it's another when you sack the entire team because of a public pay dispute that is public knowledge and replace them with second stringers.

As an example, if you are renting try to tell your landlord you don't want to pay rent (or your mortgage) because of internal issues (you lost your job or were given a lesser paying job). Or that you can pay half the amount until you get a better job. See how that works.

People can play as much provincial politics as they like but it is ultimately the responsibility of a national (or regional) board to ensure that internal issues do not affect external partners.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Was not talking about what happened to Sri Lanka... Was talking about adhering to FTP which bcci doesn't do. What was stopping them from playing Pakistan in a neutral venue. Hence why I mentioned why pcb can't claim some kind of a money using the same logic of tour cancellation.

The FTP isnt legally binding but when two teams agree to tour they sign contracts.

 

[yadunoe]

No, they cannot. In practical terms they can prevent the WI from getting revenue by refusing to tour or host them. But they can't enforce the judgement of an Indian court on a foreign party.

BCCI run ICC they can enforce anything they want they will Kick WICB out of world cricket.

 

[CricketAnalyst]

BCCI run ICC they can enforce anything they want they will Kick WICB out of world cricket.

To be honest WICB as a board is a shambles and is harming WI cricket. Pretty much any alternative would be better for everyone as they are corrupt egotistic and incompetent administrators.

 

[Random Aussie]

That's way too simplistic.

All commercial contracts have jurisdiction clauses and I can bet my bottom dollar the jurisdiction clause here will specify either New Delhi HC or Bombay HC. Furthermore, even if there wasn't a jurisdiction clause, there is a clear cause of action arising in India and the Indian Courts have jurisdiction. The relevant courts in West Indies would recognize this and enforce the award against the WICB.

International commerce would grind to a halt if commercial disputes could be evaded just by being a foreign party.

What relevant court in the West Indies? There is no West Indian court, the team is an aggregation of nations. Assuming there is a court that could enforce an Indian judgement, in real politic terms that court is going to effectively eliminate the WI cricket team on behalf of a foreign sporting admin?

You would recall that US courts have not been helpful to the Indian courts in the case of Bhopal. Laws may seem black and white but in reality it can be different.

 

[Varun]

In an ideal world, what the BCCI is doing makes complete sense but really - the West Indies are a house of cards and the BCCI is coming at them like a huge crowbar for their wrongdoing/incompetency when they could as well let them go for the sake of world cricket at large.

 

[Random Aussie]

In an ideal world, what the BCCI is doing makes complete sense but really - the West Indies are a house of cards and the BCCI is coming at them like a huge crowbar for their wrongdoing/incompetency when they could as well let them go for the sake of world cricket at large.

Agree, if there is one less team there is less cash for everyone left.

 

[cricketjoshila]

What relevant court in the West Indies? There is no West Indian court, the team is an aggregation of nations. Assuming there is a court that could enforce an Indian judgement, in real politic terms that court is going to effectively eliminate the WI cricket team on behalf of a foreign sporting admin?

You would recall that US courts have not been helpful to the Indian courts in the case of Bhopal. Laws may seem black and white but in reality it can be different.

More to do with the corrupt Congress govt. who let Anderson go,rather escorted him and then agreed for an out of court settlement.

WICB is based in Antigua so Antiguan court can enforce any judgement.

And BCCI doesnt need a court to eliminate WICB if thats what they want.

Also Indian courts have many ways to make ICC implememt ots judgement.

 

[Saqs]

Can you explain how are drawing this analogy?

Lol why do you need an explanation?

Two boards were at fault.

One set of players were let off. The others weren't.

 

[shane]

What relevant court in the West Indies? There is no West Indian court, the team is an aggregation of nations. Assuming there is a court that could enforce an Indian judgement, in real politic terms that court is going to effectively eliminate the WI cricket team on behalf of a foreign sporting admin?

You would recall that US courts have not been helpful to the Indian courts in the case of Bhopal. Laws may seem black and white but in reality it can be different.

On this point, once a judgment is obtained in India then it may be enforced anywhere in the world. So, for example, if the WICB has assets in the UK then the judgment can be enforced against those assets in the UK courts.

The countries comprising the West Indies do of course have their courts and the Indian judgment may be enforced in each of them separately. Interestingly, one of the reasons that a court may refuse to enforce the judgment of a foreign court is for reasons of "public policy". I wonder if the Caribbean courts would refuse the Indian judgment on this ground, i.e. because it may effectively destroy West Indies cricket and that this is obviously contrary to their public policy.

 

[yadunoe]

To be honest WICB as a board is a shambles and is harming WI cricket. Pretty much any alternative would be better for everyone as they are corrupt egotistic and incompetent administrators.

can they even afford to pay 42 m?

 

[Savak]

The PCB can study this case. How were the BCCI going to enforce this, in which court against the WICB?

 

[Gubol123]

The PCB can study this case. How were the BCCI going to enforce this, in which court against the WICB?

i think you should study the case first..

 

[Gubol123]

The PCB can study this case. How were the BCCI going to enforce this, in which court against the WICB?

by the way are you by any chance that octogenarian who was heading the PCB earlier.. Looks all you think of is about the MOU saga just like that old gentleman

 

[mmkextreme_1]

The PCB can study this case. How were the BCCI going to enforce this, in which court against the WICB?

I thought they resolved this? CWI has arranged some tours to make up for the losses.

 

[Usman Chadda]

by the way are you by any chance that octogenarian who was heading the PCB earlier.. Looks all you think of is about the MOU saga just like that old gentleman

For those of us who are too lazy to read up on the case, we would like a genuine answer to [MENTION=2501]Savak[/MENTION]'s question.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The PCB can study this case. How were the BCCI going to enforce this, in which court against the WICB?

When two teams tour each other they sign actual agreements on number of matches touring fees etc.

 

[Hitman]

Why demand that type of money from a board that's close to being bankrupt? $42 million isn't going to hit the BCCI coffers any hard either.

 

[Gubol123]

For those of us who are too lazy to read up on the case, we would like a genuine answer to [MENTION=2501]Savak[/MENTION]'s question.

May be you are too lazy, but I am not. All of us lived through that incident and know exactly what happened. I had a ticket for one of the venues WI was supposed to play. It was totally different scenario, for one, WI had actually signed the contract.. And India had no intention of actually taking them to court. India in fact toured them after that.. This discussion is generally waste of time.

 

[Savak]

When two teams tour each other they sign actual agreements on number of matches touring fees etc.

BCCI signed an agreement with the PCB in 2014. The FTP was an agreement as well.

My question is when the BCCI threatened litigation against the WICB, which court were they going to file this case in? According to the article they mention Indian courts but surely the BCCI needed to do better than this.

 

[OoparCut]

BCCI signed an agreement with the PCB in 2014. The FTP was an agreement as well.

My question is when the BCCI threatened litigation against the WICB, which court were they going to file this case in? According to the article they mention Indian courts but surely the BCCI needed to do better than this.

Are you incapable of understanding the difference between refusing to tour, vs abandoning a series midway?

#MoongeriLal

 

[CanadianG00se]

BCCI signed an agreement with the PCB in 2014. The FTP was an agreement as well.

My question is when the BCCI threatened litigation against the WICB, which court were they going to file this case in? According to the article they mention Indian courts but surely the BCCI needed to do better than this.

The case was eventually dropped by then BCCI president shashank Manohar. If the dispute wasnt resolved then BCCI were officially gonna boycott tours to WI, which would've hurt them more.
As far as about case goes, BCCI officially didnt pursue it.

In any case, both the scenarios are different, however the conclusion would be the same, i.e just like BCCI, PCB too would get nothing out of this court case. Indian courts will never judge against India's interest and foreign courts have no jurisdiction.

 

[cricketjoshila]

BCCI signed an agreement with the PCB in 2014. The FTP was an agreement as well.

My question is when the BCCI threatened litigation against the WICB, which court were they going to file this case in? According to the article they mention Indian courts but surely the BCCI needed to do better than this.

FTP is not an agreememt. Its a tentative calendar. You sign bilateral tour agreements that deliniate number of matches, venues, touring fees etc. Thats a binding agreement.

If the agreement gave jurisdiction to indian courts than case would have been filed in indian courts. The matter was serious enough for the CARICOM to get involved and request bcci.

 

[Savak]

Are you incapable of understanding the difference between refusing to tour, vs abandoning a series midway?

#MoongeriLal

It is the strategies and tactics applicable in both cases which are vital.

 

[Savak]

FTP is not an agreememt. Its a tentative calendar. You sign bilateral tour agreements that deliniate number of matches, venues, touring fees etc. Thats a binding agreement.

If the agreement gave jurisdiction to indian courts than case would have been filed in indian courts. The matter was serious enough for the CARICOM to get involved and request bcci.

But surely when the FTP is finalized, all ICC member countries are signatories to it and those signatures mean that the countries have agreed that all bilateral fixtures are binding. The BCCI is violating the FTP and the agreement with another member country by boycotting the bilateral series.

 

[cricketjoshila]

But surely when the FTP is finalized, all ICC member countries are signatories to it and those signatures mean that the countries have agreed that all bilateral fixtures are binding. The BCCI is violating the FTP and the agreement with another member country by boycotting the bilateral series.

ICC doesnot sign agreements with members, except the Members participation agreement for ICC events. FTP is not any agreement that countries sign, its only a tentative calendar so nothing binding there. All bilateral agreements are signed between member boards.