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Ben Stokes vs Chris Cairns vs Andrew Flintoff - Better all-rounder?

Ted123

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Ben Stokes recently got to 4000 test runs has around 140 test wickets over 60 tests, nearly similar to matches played by Cairns and Flintoff . More importantly, his ability to turn it on in the big moments made me compare him with these two players. Now, the difference is both Cairns and Flintoff were better bowlers and Stokes is a better batsmen.

To all who watched the three, how do you rate each of them?
 
Stokes is a fantastic test batter, better than Botham and clearly a level ahead of Kapil and Imran.

However, as a bowler, he is not just behind Botham and Kapil but also behind Cairns and Flintoff. The good part for Stokes is that he will have a full fledged career than Cairns and Flintoff as he has played 60 tests already and is younger than even Joe Root who is the youngest of the Fab four.

Cairns and Flintoff have roughly identical
stats with bat although Cairns peak with bat was better and as test bowler, Flintoff's peak was better but again Cairns had an overall better career with 13 5-fer to his name in around just 65 tests. I will pick Cairns over Flintoff.

Stokes is a couple of levels ahead a batter than Flintoff and 1.5 level ahead of Cairns but as a bowler a level below both. As a test all-rounder,

Stokes-8.5/10
Cairns- 8/10
Flintoff- 7.5/10

Botham- 9.5
Kapil- 9
 
Stokes is a fantastic test batter, better than Botham and clearly a level ahead of Kapil and Imran.

However, as a bowler, he is not just behind Botham and Kapil but also behind Cairns and Flintoff. The good part for Stokes is that he will have a full fledged career than Cairns and Flintoff as he has played 60 tests already and is younger than even Joe Root who is the youngest of the Fab four.

Cairns and Flintoff have roughly identical
stats with bat although Cairns peak with bat was better and as test bowler, Flintoff's peak was better but again Cairns had an overall better career with 13 5-fer to his name in around just 65 tests. I will pick Cairns over Flintoff.

Stokes is a couple of levels ahead a batter than Flintoff and 1.5 level ahead of Cairns but as a bowler a level below both. As a test all-rounder,

Stokes-8.5/10
Cairns- 8/10
Flintoff- 7.5/10

Botham- 9.5
Kapil- 9

Botham clearly better than stokes at moment, botham had 15 test hundreds, botham the best bat at moment and imran head and shoulders the best bowler
 
Stokes, no question. Has been more impactful than the other two my a margin. Still young and has lots to offer
 
You are not comparing like with like.

A balanced all-rounder would have just under 100 Test wickets for every 1000 Test runs he took. Imran Khan scored 3800 Test runs and took 362 wickets, which is about right.

Stokes is a batting all-rounder like Sobers or Kallis - only capable of being the fourth bowler in an attack. After 61 Tests he has a terrific 4000 runs, but just a paltry 142 wickets.

The same is true of Flintoff: 4000 runs but only 226 wickets.

So they were a pair of superb Batting All-Rounders, to play at Number 6.

Chris Cairns scored 3300 runs in 61 Tests, but took his 219 wickets at a superior average (29, compared with Flintoff and Stokes’ bowling average of 33).

So Cairns is the only genuine all-rounder of the 3, the only one worth his place as a bowler as well as a Top 7 batsman.

In reality, three brilliant cricketers, but none was a top class balanced all-rounder like Imran or Kapil Dev or Mike Procter.

They were more like Eddie Barlow or Kallis or Sobers - batting all-rounders who could be a useful fourth or fifth bowler. But those three were superior batsmen to the current crop.
 
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You are not comparing like with like.

A balanced all-rounder would have just under 100 Test wickets for every 1000 Test runs he took. Imran Khan scored 3800 Test runs and took 362 wickets, which is about right.

Stokes is a batting all-rounder like Sobers or Kallis - only capable of being the fourth bowler in an attack. After 61 Tests he has a terrific 4000 runs, but just a paltry 142 wickets.

The same is true of Flintoff: 4000 runs but only 226 wickets.

So they were a pair of superb Batting All-Rounders, to play at Number 6.

Chris Cairns scored 3300 runs in 61 Tests, but took his 219 wickets at a superior average (29, compared with Flintoff and Stokes’ bowling average of 33).

So Cairns is the only genuine all-rounder of the 3, the only one worth his place as a bowler as well as a Top 7 batsman.

In reality, three brilliant cricketers, but none was a top class balanced all-rounder like Imran or Kapil Dev or Mike Procter.

They were more like Eddie Barlow or Kallis or Sobers - batting all-rounders who could be a useful fourth or fifth bowler. But those three were superior batsmen to the current crop.

Well put sir
 
I still can't believe how Cairns stole the ICC final from India with a brilliant 100. When NZ was 132/5 India was on top.
 
Stokes>Cairns>Flintoff

Sobers>Imran>Kallis>Miller>Botham = Proctor>Dev>Stokes
Blokes pre ww2 not included, can't be bothered (Faulkner, Rhodes, WG, Jackson)
 
You are not comparing like with like.

A balanced all-rounder would have just under 100 Test wickets for every 1000 Test runs he took. Imran Khan scored 3800 Test runs and took 362 wickets, which is about right.

Stokes is a batting all-rounder like Sobers or Kallis - only capable of being the fourth bowler in an attack. After 61 Tests he has a terrific 4000 runs, but just a paltry 142 wickets.

The same is true of Flintoff: 4000 runs but only 226 wickets.

So they were a pair of superb Batting All-Rounders, to play at Number 6.

Chris Cairns scored 3300 runs in 61 Tests, but took his 219 wickets at a superior average (29, compared with Flintoff and Stokes’ bowling average of 33).

So Cairns is the only genuine all-rounder of the 3, the only one worth his place as a bowler as well as a Top 7 batsman.

In reality, three brilliant cricketers, but none was a top class balanced all-rounder like Imran or Kapil Dev or Mike Procter.

They were more like Eddie Barlow or Kallis or Sobers - batting all-rounders who could be a useful fourth or fifth bowler. But those three were superior batsmen to the current crop.

I agree and disagree at the same time

A balanced all rounder is one who is equally good in both his disciplines

Hed be one A) that can bat in the top 4 and open the bowling avge 50\20 or 45\25
Or B) bat at 6 and come on first change bowling avge 35\30

As there has hardly been anyone in history that can do A skilifully owing to how difficult it is then B is what is ideal

Hed score 60 runs per test and take 3.5 wkts per test Just under what a front line batter \ bowler would take

So 1750 runs for every 110 wkts in around 30 tests so after 60 tests hed have 3600 test runs and about 220 test wickets, after 100 tests 6000 runs and 350 test wkts

Imran khan wasnt balanced for most of his career he was a bowling allrounder with his bowling as good as any top class bowler of his time His batting improved with time but was never as good as the greats of his time unlike his bowling

On the other hand kallis was a batting all rounder who chipped away rougly 2 wkts per test but scored 70-80 runs per test in line with the great batters of his era

Both dont make the above criterias of balance

Therefore yes the comparison isnt right, Stokes even though his avge is more 30\30 is more of a batting all rounder he has 4000 runs in 60 tests but only 140 test wickets

He is someone in the kallis mould but a division or two behind the great man Hes someone who can chip away with a couple of wkts and give you 60 runs per test

whereas cairns and flintoff were more what i called
B, equally skilled between both disciplines of the game
 
It’s debatable when comparing stokes with yesteryears players. But he has no competition as an all rounder from 2000s he is a confirmed ATG with his match winning abilities and big game player
 
Stats don’t tell the whole story..

Flintoff has the X factor and could turn a game on its head and come through during critical passages.. he was not consistent, yes.. that counts against him .. but any debate about such and such is better than such and such is always subjective....

I would Flintoff higher than Stokes.. but not above Botham.
 
Stats don’t tell the whole story..

Flintoff has the X factor and could turn a game on its head and come through during critical passages.. he was not consistent, yes.. that counts against him .. but any debate about such and such is better than such and such is always subjective....

I would Flintoff higher than Stokes.. but not above Botham.

stokes is far better than flint off. flintoff did nothing vs top teams away from home.
 
Botham clearly better than stokes at moment, botham had 15 test hundreds, botham the best bat at moment and imran head and shoulders the best bowler

Botham is better than Stokes with the bat at the moment because Stokes has played only 60 tests compared to Botham's 100 but overall I think Stokes is well on his way to be rated a better batsmen than Botham. However, he will always end up two levels below Botham as a test bowler.

Stokes bowling is at Kallis level and his batting is more on the lines of 40 averaging batsmen. By the time he retires, he will have 8000 test runs and about 275 wickets. So, as good a batsmen as Gower or Thorpe and a Kallis level bowler.
 
Actually I will rate it higher than Kallis unless he continues focussing on batting and just do a containing job with the bowl for the next part of his career.
 
You are not comparing like with like.

<B>A balanced all-rounder would have just under 100 Test wickets for every 1000 Test runs he took.</B> Imran Khan scored 3800 Test runs and took 362 wickets, which is about right.

Stokes is a batting all-rounder like Sobers or Kallis - only capable of being the fourth bowler in an attack. After 61 Tests he has a terrific 4000 runs, but just a paltry 142 wickets.

<B>The same is true of Flintoff: 4000 runs but only 226 wickets.

So they were a pair of superb Batting All-Rounders, to play at Number 6.</B>

Chris Cairns scored 3300 runs in 61 Tests, but took his 219 wickets at a superior average (29, compared with Flintoff and Stokes’ bowling average of 33).

So Cairns is the only genuine all-rounder of the 3, the only one worth his place as a bowler as well as a Top 7 batsman.

In reality, three brilliant cricketers, but none was a top class balanced all-rounder like Imran or Kapil Dev or Mike Procter.

They were more like Eddie Barlow or Kallis or Sobers - batting all-rounders who could be a useful fourth or fifth bowler. But those three were superior batsmen to the current crop.

But Imran was a genius with bowl and only good with bat. Not everyone is as good a bowler to take 100 wickets and score only 1000 runs.

Flintoff was a bowling all-rounder, not a batting AR. He has 226 wickets but he played only 75 tests and at his peak, he was as good as any England bowler in past many years. His weaker suit is batting.

100 wickets and 1000 runs for genuine all-rounder is flawed.
 
But Imran was a genius with bowl and only good with bat. Not everyone is as good a bowler to take 100 wickets and score only 1000 runs.

Flintoff was a bowling all-rounder, not a batting AR. He has 226 wickets but he played only 75 tests and at his peak, he was as good as any England bowler in past many years. His weaker suit is batting.

100 wickets and 1000 runs for genuine all-rounder is flawed.

yeah. Even though it is not really possible to compare between runs and wickets, i find 50 runs=3 wickets and 100=5 wickets acceptable.Going by this probably somewhere around 17-18 runs is what every wicket should translate to. So 100 wickets and 1750 runs.
 
Botham is better than Stokes with the bat at the moment because Stokes has played only 60 tests compared to Botham's 100 but overall I think Stokes is well on his way to be rated a better batsmen than Botham. However, he will always end up two levels below Botham as a test bowler.

Stokes bowling is at Kallis level and his batting is more on the lines of 40 averaging batsmen. By the time he retires, he will have 8000 test runs and about 275 wickets. So, as good a batsmen as Gower or Thorpe and a Kallis level bowler.

Well I necessarily don't agree, this generation play more tests in a calender year therefore they get the ample opportunity to boost their records
 
Cairns the best bowler of the three, Stokes the best batter, but all these guys are a notch below the eighties aces who would get in as batters and bowlers alone. Stokes wouldn’t get in for his bowling and Cairns wouldn’t for his batting.

Flintoff came the closest to the eighties aces for about three years 2003-5, but outside that he didn’t score enough runs or take enough wickets. He was one of those guys who lifted the team though, and his hostile quick bowling helped the bowler at the other end.
 
Botham is better than Stokes with the bat at the moment because Stokes has played only 60 tests compared to Botham's 100 but overall I think Stokes is well on his way to be rated a better batsmen than Botham. However, he will always end up two levels below Botham as a test bowler.

Stokes bowling is at Kallis level and his batting is more on the lines of 40 averaging batsmen. By the time he retires, he will have 8000 test runs and about 275 wickets. So, as good a batsmen as Gower or Thorpe and a Kallis level bowler.

He’s not as good as Gower and Thorpe with the bat. I’ll be very surprised if he ends up with eighteen test centuries like they did, as he doesn’t have their skill against spin.

Doubt he’ll get to 200 wickets let alone nearly 300 like Kallis (who admittedly was a minnowbasher with the ball). He doesn’t bowl much now and you constantly expect him to get injured again.
 
The bare minimum requirement for a quality Test AR according to me should be
Batting Average - 25+
Bowling average - below 35
Runs - 1000+
Wickets - 100+

[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Bat Av [/td][td]100 [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Bowl Av [/td][td]5W [/td][td]Ave Diff [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GS Sobers (WI) [/td][td]1954-1974 [/td][td]93 [/td][td]8032 [/td][td]57.78 [/td][td]26 [/td][td]235 [/td][td]34.03 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]23.74 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JH Kallis (ICC/SA) [/td][td]1995-2013 [/td][td]166 [/td][td]13289 [/td][td]55.37 [/td][td]45 [/td][td]292 [/td][td]32.65 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]22.71 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Imran Khan (PAK) [/td][td]1971-1992 [/td][td]88 [/td][td]3807 [/td][td]37.69 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]362 [/td][td]22.81 [/td][td]23 [/td][td]14.88 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]KR Miller (AUS) [/td][td]1946-1956 [/td][td]55 [/td][td]2958 [/td][td]36.97 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]170 [/td][td]22.97 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]13.99 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RA Jadeja (INDIA) [/td][td]2012-2019 [/td][td]48 [/td][td]1844 [/td][td]35.46 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]211 [/td][td]24.64 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]10.81 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SM Pollock (SA) [/td][td]1995-2008 [/td][td]108 [/td][td]3781 [/td][td]32.31 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]421 [/td][td]23.11 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]9.19 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Shakib Al Hasan (BDESH) [/td][td]2007-2019 [/td][td]56 [/td][td]3862 [/td][td]39.4 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]210 [/td][td]31.12 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]8.27 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]TL Goddard (SA) [/td][td]1955-1970 [/td][td]41 [/td][td]2516 [/td][td]34.46 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]123 [/td][td]26.22 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]8.23 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AW Greig (ENG) [/td][td]1972-1977 [/td][td]58 [/td][td]3599 [/td][td]40.43 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]141 [/td][td]32.2 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]8.23 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JO Holder (WI) [/td][td]2014-2019 [/td][td]40 [/td][td]1898 [/td][td]32.72 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]106 [/td][td]26.37 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]6.34 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MA Noble (AUS) [/td][td]1898-1909 [/td][td]42 [/td][td]1997 [/td][td]30.25 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]121 [/td][td]25 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]5.25 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]IT Botham (ENG) [/td][td]1977-1992 [/td][td]102 [/td][td]5200 [/td][td]33.54 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]383 [/td][td]28.4 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]5.14 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) [/td][td]1973-1990 [/td][td]86 [/td][td]3124 [/td][td]27.16 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]431 [/td][td]22.29 [/td][td]36 [/td][td]4.86 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CL Cairns (NZ) [/td][td]1989-2004 [/td][td]62 [/td][td]3320 [/td][td]33.53 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]218 [/td][td]29.4 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]4.13 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]BA Stokes (ENG) [/td][td]2013-2020 [/td][td]62 [/td][td]4026 [/td][td]36.93 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]143 [/td][td]32.87 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]4.06 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Ashwin (INDIA) [/td][td]2011-2019 [/td][td]70 [/td][td]2385 [/td][td]28.73 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]362 [/td][td]25.36 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]3.36 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]W Rhodes (ENG) [/td][td]1899-1930 [/td][td]58 [/td][td]2325 [/td][td]30.19 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]127 [/td][td]26.96 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]3.22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]N Kapil Dev (INDIA) [/td][td]1978-1994 [/td][td]131 [/td][td]5248 [/td][td]31.05 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]434 [/td][td]29.64 [/td][td]23 [/td][td]1.4 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]TE Bailey (ENG) [/td][td]1949-1959 [/td][td]61 [/td][td]2290 [/td][td]29.74 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]132 [/td][td]29.21 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]0.52 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MW Tate (ENG) [/td][td]1924-1935 [/td][td]39 [/td][td]1198 [/td][td]25.48 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]155 [/td][td]26.16 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]-0.67 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]IK Pathan (INDIA) [/td][td]2003-2008 [/td][td]29 [/td][td]1105 [/td][td]31.57 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]100 [/td][td]32.26 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]-0.68 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MH Mankad (INDIA) [/td][td]1946-1959 [/td][td]44 [/td][td]2109 [/td][td]31.47 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]162 [/td][td]32.32 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]-0.84 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]A Flintoff (ENG/ICC) [/td][td]1998-2009 [/td][td]79 [/td][td]3845 [/td][td]31.77 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]226 [/td][td]32.78 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]-1.01 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DL Vettori (ICC/NZ) [/td][td]1997-2014 [/td][td]113 [/td][td]4531 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]362 [/td][td]34.36 [/td][td]20 [/td][td]-4.36 [/td][/tr]
[/table]
 
Chris Cairns was terrific. If injuries didn't limit his abilities he could have gone down as one of the greatest ever.

Having said that they are all well behind Kapil Dev as the greatest AR ever
 
He’s not as good as Gower and Thorpe with the bat. I’ll be very surprised if he ends up with eighteen test centuries like they did, as he doesn’t have their skill against spin.

Doubt he’ll get to 200 wickets let alone nearly 300 like Kallis (who admittedly was a minnowbasher with the ball). He doesn’t bowl much now and you constantly expect him to get injured again.

You are missing the point that Stokes is just 28 and even younger to Root, so he will be having around 60-70 tests still left in big. The current version of Stokes is as good as Thorpe and Gower and he already has 9 hundreds in 60 tests, should get to 17-18 assuming he plays around 120-130 tests.

Also, he has already taken 140 wickets, don't think there should be any debate regarding 200 wickets. He will underachieve massively he doesn't go past 250 wickets.
 
You are missing the point that Stokes is just 28 and even younger to Root, so he will be having around 60-70 tests still left in big. The current version of Stokes is as good as Thorpe and Gower and he already has 9 hundreds in 60 tests, should get to 17-18 assuming he plays around 120-130 tests.

Also, he has already taken 140 wickets, don't think there should be any debate regarding 200 wickets. He will underachieve massively he doesn't go past 250 wickets.

I agree for the most part apart the from the comparisons with thorpe and gower

Gower and thorpe played in tougher eras for batting and in an era where england didnt play as many tests as today

Gower in particular is a top 20 england batter of all time and the best 2-3 english batter of his generation Stokes isnt in that league where hes going to avge 45 with the bat circa 50 today!

But yes he will get to 8000 runs and 18 test hundreds but thats more to do with playing in an era where england play a lot more tests than actually being better than gower or thorpe
 
Cairns the best bowler of the three, Stokes the best batter, but all these guys are a notch below the eighties aces who would get in as batters and bowlers alone. Stokes wouldn’t get in for his bowling and Cairns wouldn’t for his batting.

Flintoff came the closest to the eighties aces for about three years 2003-5, but outside that he didn’t score enough runs or take enough wickets. He was one of those guys who lifted the team though, and his hostile quick bowling helped the bowler at the other end.
No Cairns would make in his team alone in both departments. He was a better batsman than hadlee, Imran, Kapil.
 
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No Cairns would make in his team alone in both departments. He was a better batsman than hadlee, Imran, Kapil.

Nz were a weak team in the late 90s so yes hed make their test team as a battee alone but he wouldnt have made most world teams on an avge of 30 alone

He wasnt a better bat than imran was in the 80s
 
Nz were a weak team in the late 90s so yes hed make their test team as a battee alone but he wouldnt have made most world teams on an avge of 30 alone

He wasnt a better bat than imran was in the 80s
And you think Imran would have made in any good batting line up. His run per innings is lower than Cairns.
 
And you think Imran would have made in any good batting line up. His run per innings is lower than Cairns.

Bar probably 3 of the top teams of his era yes he wouldve for the others He played many a test for pakistan as a batsman alone when he was injured and couldnt bowl

His runs per innings is low as he wasnt always a decent batter but became one in the last decade of his career
 
Bar probably 3 of the top teams of his era yes he wouldve for the others He played many a test for pakistan as a batsman alone when he was injured and couldnt bowl

His runs per innings is low as he wasnt always a decent batter but became one in the last decade of his career

Not for a Decade but for a period of 4 years 1986-90 - 25 tests. Other than that he was a great bowler who could bat.
 
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Not for a Decade but for a period of 4 years 1986-90 - 25 tests. Other than that he was a great bowler who could bat.

Imran wasnt a great bat But became a pretty decent mid order bat in the latter half of his career

He always was a bowling all rounder bar his last few years where his batting overtook his aging bowling

stokes is more of a batting all rounder
 
No Cairns would make in his team alone in both departments. He was a better batsman than hadlee, Imran, Kapil.

Agree on Hadlee but not the others. He got five test hundreds but two were against Zimbabwe. Four were at home. That’s not enough to bat in the top six.
 
I agree for the most part apart the from the comparisons with thorpe and gower

Gower and thorpe played in tougher eras for batting and in an era where england didnt play as many tests as today

Gower in particular is a top 20 england batter of all time and the best 2-3 english batter of his generation Stokes isnt in that league where hes going to avge 45 with the bat circa 50 today!

But yes he will get to 8000 runs and 18 test hundreds but thats more to do with playing in an era where england play a lot more tests than actually being better than gower or thorpe

Stokes don't need to average 50 to prove his capability with the bat. He has very low number of not outs, otherwise he would have been averaging around 44 quite similar to Thorpe and also the very talented Gower. He has also performed Vs big teams like South Africa, India and Australia and would have fared as good in any era. KP may average 47 but you would rate him higher than say, Yousuf or Mahela.

The recent version of Stokes is at same level as Gower and Thorpe as batsmen and similar to Kallis with the bowl. Overall career till now, maybe a shade below Thorpe still an equivalent to 40 averaging batsmen and on par with Kallis as he can make things happen with the bowl as well.

80s quartet
>
Stokes
>
Cairns
>
Flintoff
 
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Agree on Hadlee but not the others. He got five test hundreds but two were against Zimbabwe. Four were at home. That’s not enough to bat in the top six.

Cairns also played only 60 tests. If he had played more, he would have more hundreds.
 
I agree for the most part apart the from the comparisons with thorpe and gower

Gower and thorpe played in tougher eras for batting and in an era where england didnt play as many tests as today

Gower in particular is a top 20 england batter of all time and the best 2-3 english batter of his generation Stokes isnt in that league where hes going to avge 45 with the bat circa 50 today!

But yes he will get to 8000 runs and 18 test hundreds but thats more to do with playing in an era where england play a lot more tests than actually being better than gower or thorpe

Yeah. Stokes has come up in the era of average inflation. I couldn’t see him getting 170* against Qadir on a Bunsen in Pakistan, or deflecting his way to 154* on a Barbados minefield against Holding’s boys like Gower.

Or holding off Murali for a matchwinning hundred in SL. Once Thorpe settled into his best position of #5, he averaged 56 in a very hard era of Walsh & Ambrose, Pollock & Donald, W&W, Murali, McGrath, Gillespie and Warne. He is seriously underrated.

Root is more directly comparable with Gower and Thorpe.
 
Stokes don't need to average 50 to prove his capability with the bat. He has very low number of not outs, otherwise he would have been averaging around 44 quite similar to Thorpe and also the very talented Gower. He has also performed Vs big teams like South Africa, India and Australia and would have fared as good in any era. KP may average 47 but you would rate him higher than say, Yousuf or Mahela.

The recent version of Stokes is at same level as Gower and Thorpe as batsmen and similar to Kallis with the bowl. Overall career till now, maybe a shade below Thorpe still an equivalent to 40 averaging batsmen and on par with Kallis as he can make things happen with the bowl as well.

80s quartet
>
Stokes
>
Cairns
>
Flintoff

Not sure how you can rate thorpe and gower in the same bracket

Gower was confortably a notch above thorpe If you're going off the avge than thats false, like you would say kp was better than other 50 avge batters of his era so gower waa comfortably better than several of his era that avge more than him
 
Not sure how you can rate thorpe and gower in the same bracket

Gower was confortably a notch above thorpe If you're going off the avge than thats false, like you would say kp was better than other 50 avge batters of his era so gower waa comfortably better than several of his era that avge more than him

I do. Thorpe was a real pressure player in tests and better than Gower in ODIs. In fact here is my Best XI of players I have actually seen:

Boycott
Gooch (capt.)
Gower
KP
Thorpe
Botham
Knott (w)
Broad
Swann
Anderson (with Duke) / Gough (otherwise)
Willis
 
I do. Thorpe was a real pressure player in tests and better than Gower in ODIs. In fact here is my Best XI of players I have actually seen:

Boycott
Gooch (capt.)
Gower
KP
Thorpe
Botham
Knott (w)
Broad
Swann
Anderson (with Duke) / Gough (otherwise)
Willis

Is that for ODIs? Surely someone from WC winning team should be there
 
Chris cairns definitely tops the list for me but Stokes can easily end up at the top considering the impact he has on every game he plays. Flintoff is a English legend of sorts but he could have achieved more.
 
Stoke bowling is average at best, the wickets he get are often mistakes by batsmen a bit like Botham off peak. So how can be termed best all rounder in the world. Likes of Shakib are equally good in both disciplines.
 
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