Bollywood recasts death cult as loveable rogues in Thugs of Hindostan film

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Bollywood recasts death cult as loveable rogues in Thugs of Hindostan film

The thugs have returned to India, this time in the form of a Bollywood movie that has reinvented the feared death cult as a bunch of loveable rogues who are the scourge of the British colonial occupiers.

The Thuggees, from whom the term thug derives, were a frequent feature of Victorian literature, with the crushing of the cult, which some historians claim was responsible for two million deaths, touted as one of the great triumphs of imperial rule.

Amitabh Bachchan and Aamir Khan, two of India’s biggest film stars, are helping to recast history in Thugs of Hindostan. They play rival Thuggee leaders who join forces to tackle the oppressive East India Company and to outwit a despotic British commander loosely based on Robert Clive, commander-in-chief of British India, played by Lloyd Owen.



The film is partly based on the 1839 book by Philip Meadows, Confessions of a Thug, which tells the story of Ameer Ali, an ethnic Pathan from what is now northwest Pakistan. He headed a Thuggee gang, strangling and robbing travellers across the country. Thugs worshipped the Hindu goddess Kali, the deity of death, and strangled their victims with the feared roomal, or scarf. The book was a bestseller in 19th- century Britain, and fans were said to include Queen Victoria.

The film has revived a debate on whether the cult was truly a powerful and sinister group, or whether its influence was exaggerated by colonial chroniclers to portray the British as bringing order to lawless parts of the country. Imperial records described the thugs as a pressing problem for the British in colonial India but, as many academics have said, most of the testimonies are from officers chasing them.

William Henry Sleeman was credited with eliminating the “Thuggee scourge” in the 1830s. The cult derived its name from the Sanskrit word sthaga, which means sly or cunning. Thugs would infiltrate a group of travellers one by one, pretending not to know each other, and attack when the chance arose. Children were spared and brought into the gang.

The Bollywood film presents them as semi-loveable rogues; cultured, comical and irreverent, in the style of Johnny Depp’s Captain Jack Sparrow in Pirates of the Caribbean. The action romp combines raffish costumes, song sequences and moustachioed, ruthless British officers as the bad guys.

There is very little physical evidence of the Thuggees’ existence but the historian Martine van Woerkens claims in her book The Strangled Traveler: Colonial Imaginings and the Thugs of India: “Thuggism is a myth invented by the British in order to extend their control over a mobile population, or to seize criminal jurisdiction in areas in the hands of Mughal rulers.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...e-rogues-in-thugs-of-hindostan-film-svgdntblw

Ancient Pakistanis now being reinvented as Kali worshipping Hindus.

 

[JaDed]

I knew the worst films.of Bollywood will always get a thread of their own

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I knew the worst films.of Bollywood will always get a thread of their own

It's got a headline in the Tmes today, otherwise I wouldn't even know this film existed. I think the unspoken sentiment is that Brits are getting a bit fed up of being portrayed as evil in every Bollywood film, now even the Indian bandits of the era are being cast as heroes instead of the murderous robbers which they actually were.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

The action romp combines raffish costumes, song sequences and moustachioed, ruthless British officers as the bad guys.

Vintage Bwood. Never change

Cringeworthy.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Ancient Pakistanis now being reinvented as Kali worshipping Hindus.

Thuggees had both Muslims and Hindus as members, and they did worship Kali. It was like a cult those days and it was real, ancient Pakistanis (as you call it) who were members of the cult did worship this particular Goddess. They were present for many centuries and during the rule of the British posed a significant challenge to the administration/security/trade-commerce/economy, hence were systematically eliminated by the end of the 19th century.

P.S I am not aware of this movie nor do I have any plans to watch it, just responded to your surprise.

 

[enkidu_]

A Pashtun worshipping Kali, only in B'wood.

 

[introvert]

According to Reviews it is one of the worst movie released this year. As bad as race3.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Thuggees had both Muslims and Hindus as members, and they did worship Kali. It was like a cult those days and it was real, ancient Pakistanis (as you call it) who were members of the cult did worship this particular Goddess. They were present for many centuries and during the rule of the British posed a significant challenge to the administration/security/trade-commerce/economy, hence were systematically eliminated by the end of the 19th century.

P.S I am not aware of this movie nor do I have any plans to watch it, just responded to your surprise.

The proof is in the pudding my friend, no way I am accepting that without it. The Muslim interests with their Hindu neighbours might have had some convergence, i.e. revival of the Mughal empire, but their motives will have been driven by glory of Allah, not some stone idol representing Kali.

 

[Jin Chacha]

From the trailer that is the least of this movie's problems. It seems to take a little too much 'inspiration' from Assassins creed games and Pirates of the Caribbean.

I was actually hoping for it to be good because I have always been a fan of Thug stories. One of my favorite's is The Deceivers starring Peirce Brosnan and Shashi Kapoor which is based on the same topic but is infinitely better if someone is interested.

 

[Varun]

According to Reviews it is one of the worst movie released this year. As bad as race3.

When was the last time Bollywood released a good, mainstream film? I liked Raazi, Airlift, Queen, etc. etc. but these are niche.

I'm talking mainstream like the ones from the days of yore - Kal Ho Na Ho, Dil Chahta Hai, those.

 

[JaDed]

When was the last time Bollywood released a good, mainstream film? I liked Raazi, Airlift, Queen, etc. etc. but these are niche.

I'm talking mainstream like the ones from the days of yore - Kal Ho Na Ho, Dil Chahta Hai, those.

Dangal , also no way is airlift niche. This year many mainstream movies have done well but thugs were gonna be a disaster from the trailer itself.

 

[Varun]

I think the unspoken sentiment is that Brits are getting a bit fed up of being portrayed as evil in every Bollywood film, now even the Indian bandits of the era are being cast as heroes instead of the murderous robbers which they actually were.

Please have them get a life and stop watching it then. Bollywood and the IPL are showed down our throats here in India, if folks in faraway England are getting tipsy at one crapola film or the other, they might be masochists at heart for all we know.

 

[Napa]

The proof is in the pudding my friend, no way I am accepting that without it. The Muslim interests with their Hindu neighbours might have had some convergence, i.e. revival of the Mughal empire, but their motives will have been driven by glory of Allah, not some stone idol representing Kali.

"Thuggee: Banditry and the British in Early Nineteenth-Century India" By K. Wagner, Springer, page 141

 

[Napa]

Please have them get a life and stop watching it then. Bollywood and the IPL are showed down our throats here in India, if folks in faraway England are getting tipsy at one crapola film or the other, they might be masochists at heart for all we know.

British newspapers have a rather limited set of topics to print. What is TM doing about Brexit? Which celeb is cheating on spouse with whom? A few pics of female celebs in bikinis. When the look at the world beyond their shores, it is either Trump or something negative about India.

 

[Varun]

British newspapers have a rather limited set of topics to print. What is TM doing about Brexit? Which celeb is cheating on spouse with whom? A few pics of female celebs in bikinis. When the look at the world beyond their shores, it is either Trump or something negative about India.

It was a rhetorical post. In all seriousness, I'm sure British folks have better things to do than tune into Bollywood. That is still the domain of (North) Indians, Pakistanis and the confused desis one of whom I may have quoted a couple of posts above.

 

[Swashbuckler]

The proof is in the pudding my friend, no way I am accepting that without it. The Muslim interests with their Hindu neighbours might have had some convergence, i.e. revival of the Mughal empire, but their motives will have been driven by glory of Allah, not some stone idol representing Kali.

Captain I can quote a few sources about what I posted earlier in this thread. In fact you could do the same, just type in keywords like "thuggee", "Muslim", "Kali" etc in google search bar, google books etc and it will throw plenty of results from Indian sources, old Muslim sources, foreign authors etc. But I will try to explain the underlying reasons for this phenomenon, at least my pov. You may accept it or reject it but hear me out.

You said Muslims will have been driven by the glory of Allah. But we are talking about the medieval era when the converts to the fold of Islam were very fresh, newly initiated. The Thuggee cult was there since the early Delhi Sultanate period, circa 1200s. Even today in the subcontinent you see Muslims subconsciously holding on to the Hindu customs/superstitions of their ancestors, most prominent examples being grave/dargah worship, caste system, prayer beads, bracelets, taaweez/lockets. There are numerous instances of Muslims praying in Hindu temples which I have been witness to in South India (example https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/muslims-offer-prayers-at-temple/article8459317.ece) . I can give more such examples if you want but what I am trying to say is that even in 2018 there are Muslims who won't let go off some features of their non Islamic past.

Without disrespecting the Islamic faith I would just like to rationalize that it is difficult to completely let go off one's previous way of life and adopt a new system truthfully. An African Muslim unexposed to Dharmic system may not be remotely familiar with caste system but surely there must be some influence of African culture/religion imbibed into their brand of Islam, eg African witch doctors tied to native animistic faiths which have nothing in common with the way Islam is practiced in the Arab world.

Emperor Akbar who was the most powerful man of the South Asian subcontinent during his time started a new religion (Din-I-Ilahi) which borrowed attributes from other religions including Hinduism. There is factual evidence of Sufi saints and Islamic mystics mingling with and co-opting aspects of Hinduism. There is a fort/citadel in Hyderabad called Golconda which was the capital of the Qutb Shahi dynasty. Atop the fort is a Kali temple but the Muslims let it be because even the Muslim soldiers used to pay respects to the warrior Goddess who also doubled as Goddess of death/destruction. No matter what religion a soldier belongs to, it will take some guts to **** off such a God and superstition was rampant in Indian society back then cutting across religious lines.

Now why is it hard to believe that Muslim nomadic groups wouldn't adopt certain aspects of Hinduism which was still the dominant faith of the populace by a large margin? Thuggees were ruthless highway robbers who took pleasure in killing, Kali is a blood drinking figure closer to tantric sects of Hinduism. Add 2+2 and it will be pretty clear why they took refuge in Kali worship to justify their acts of murder which are otherwise prohibited in other interpretations of Dharmic texts and Islam. In those days human sacrifices to Kali were common among some tribes, 'Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom' showed it in the modern setting albeit in a trollish way. I mean if a 6th generation Muslim like Akbar could adopt Hindu practises is it infeasible to think that some newer (non elite, gypsy) converts wouldn't bend the rules to justify their acts?

Again I don't think they had any idea to restore Mughal rule in Delhi. These guys were on the run bandits who had always lived this life for centuries, they couldn't bother less about what happened in the power corridors of the kingdoms. I have read books about the formation of the cult. One particular interpretation was how the thuggees were original nobles of North India who were driven away by some of the Delhi Sultans who preferred Turks and Persians in the halls of the palace. These runaways who were martial in nature settled in the jungles of Central India and took to this occupation of dacoity for not just sustenance but also to create anarchy in the Empire as revenge. Since they limited themselves to the jungles and badlands they couldn't be put down until the more resourceful British took control many centuries later. I very much doubt these people had any political or religious affiliation to the political power centres, they were simply professional bandits, mantle passed from one generation to the next.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Correction in the last but one para of my post, sorry but couldn't edit cos of 2 minutes rule.

Now why is it hard to believe that Muslim nomadic groups would adopt certain aspects of Hinduism which was still the dominant faith of the populace by a large margin?

 

[enkidu_]

"Thuggee: Banditry and the British in Early Nineteenth-Century India" By K. Wagner, Springer, page 141

A "Muslim" who worships Kali, Krishna or Modi commits shirk (associatinism with the Essence of God) which is the biggest sin in the religion and one which takes you out of it with immediate effects. These peoples are disgusting tbh.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Please have them get a life and stop watching it then. Bollywood and the IPL are showed down our throats here in India, if folks in faraway England are getting tipsy at one crapola film or the other, they might be masochists at heart for all we know.

I doubt even 2% of white Brits even know about the film, perhaps 5% know about the IPL, and that's being generous. This article was posted because it was topical to TP readership in the same way Arab/Israeli threads are sometimes posted by certain contributors.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Captain I can quote a few sources about what I posted earlier in this thread. In fact you could do the same, just type in keywords like "thuggee", "Muslim", "Kali" etc in google search bar, google books etc and it will throw plenty of results from Indian sources, old Muslim sources, foreign authors etc. But I will try to explain the underlying reasons for this phenomenon, at least my pov. You may accept it or reject it but hear me out.

You said Muslims will have been driven by the glory of Allah. But we are talking about the medieval era when the converts to the fold of Islam were very fresh, newly initiated. The Thuggee cult was there since the early Delhi Sultanate period, circa 1200s. Even today in the subcontinent you see Muslims subconsciously holding on to the Hindu customs/superstitions of their ancestors, most prominent examples being grave/dargah worship, caste system, prayer beads, bracelets, taaweez/lockets. There are numerous instances of Muslims praying in Hindu temples which I have been witness to in South India (example https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/muslims-offer-prayers-at-temple/article8459317.ece) . I can give more such examples if you want but what I am trying to say is that even in 2018 there are Muslims who won't let go off some features of their non Islamic past.

Without disrespecting the Islamic faith I would just like to rationalize that it is difficult to completely let go off one's previous way of life and adopt a new system truthfully. An African Muslim unexposed to Dharmic system may not be remotely familiar with caste system but surely there must be some influence of African culture/religion imbibed into their brand of Islam, eg African witch doctors tied to native animistic faiths which have nothing in common with the way Islam is practiced in the Arab world.

Emperor Akbar who was the most powerful man of the South Asian subcontinent during his time started a new religion (Din-I-Ilahi) which borrowed attributes from other religions including Hinduism. There is factual evidence of Sufi saints and Islamic mystics mingling with and co-opting aspects of Hinduism. There is a fort/citadel in Hyderabad called Golconda which was the capital of the Qutb Shahi dynasty. Atop the fort is a Kali temple but the Muslims let it be because even the Muslim soldiers used to pay respects to the warrior Goddess who also doubled as Goddess of death/destruction. No matter what religion a soldier belongs to, it will take some guts to **** off such a God and superstition was rampant in Indian society back then cutting across religious lines.

Now why is it hard to believe that Muslim nomadic groups wouldn't adopt certain aspects of Hinduism which was still the dominant faith of the populace by a large margin? Thuggees were ruthless highway robbers who took pleasure in killing, Kali is a blood drinking figure closer to tantric sects of Hinduism. Add 2+2 and it will be pretty clear why they took refuge in Kali worship to justify their acts of murder which are otherwise prohibited in other interpretations of Dharmic texts and Islam. In those days human sacrifices to Kali were common among some tribes, 'Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom' showed it in the modern setting albeit in a trollish way. I mean if a 6th generation Muslim like Akbar could adopt Hindu practises is it infeasible to think that some newer (non elite, gypsy) converts wouldn't bend the rules to justify their acts?

Again I don't think they had any idea to restore Mughal rule in Delhi. These guys were on the run bandits who had always lived this life for centuries, they couldn't bother less about what happened in the power corridors of the kingdoms. I have read books about the formation of the cult. One particular interpretation was how the thuggees were original nobles of North India who were driven away by some of the Delhi Sultans who preferred Turks and Persians in the halls of the palace. These runaways who were martial in nature settled in the jungles of Central India and took to this occupation of dacoity for not just sustenance but also to create anarchy in the Empire as revenge. Since they limited themselves to the jungles and badlands they couldn't be put down until the more resourceful British took control many centuries later. I very much doubt these people had any political or religious affiliation to the political power centres, they were simply professional bandits, mantle passed from one generation to the next.

Sufi saints and mystics are no different to the Muslim thuggees who "worshipped" Kali. As I already suggested, they shared a common cause with the Hindus revolting against the British rule, and as a minority, they saw that "worshipping" Kali would achieve their own aims, which was restoration of the Mughal Sultanate. Please read through Napa's evidence posted which only confirms this.

This isn't to suggest that Muslims didn't admire many aspects of the Hindu religion or culture, Muslims everywhere will usually adopt those which don't directly clash with their own.

 

[Napa]

A "Muslim" who worships Kali, Krishna or Modi commits shirk (associatinism with the Essence of God) which is the biggest sin in the religion and one which takes you out of it with immediate effects. These peoples are disgusting tbh.

They probably would have the opinion that your intolerance is disgusting. So let's call it a draw

 

[KB]

Captain I can quote a few sources about what I posted earlier in this thread. In fact you could do the same, just type in keywords like "thuggee", "Muslim", "Kali" etc in google search bar, google books etc and it will throw plenty of results from Indian sources, old Muslim sources, foreign authors etc. But I will try to explain the underlying reasons for this phenomenon, at least my pov. You may accept it or reject it but hear me out.

You said Muslims will have been driven by the glory of Allah. But we are talking about the medieval era when the converts to the fold of Islam were very fresh, newly initiated. The Thuggee cult was there since the early Delhi Sultanate period, circa 1200s. Even today in the subcontinent you see Muslims subconsciously holding on to the Hindu customs/superstitions of their ancestors, most prominent examples being grave/dargah worship, caste system, prayer beads, bracelets, taaweez/lockets. There are numerous instances of Muslims praying in Hindu temples which I have been witness to in South India (example https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/muslims-offer-prayers-at-temple/article8459317.ece) . I can give more such examples if you want but what I am trying to say is that even in 2018 there are Muslims who won't let go off some features of their non Islamic past.

Without disrespecting the Islamic faith I would just like to rationalize that it is difficult to completely let go off one's previous way of life and adopt a new system truthfully. An African Muslim unexposed to Dharmic system may not be remotely familiar with caste system but surely there must be some influence of African culture/religion imbibed into their brand of Islam, eg African witch doctors tied to native animistic faiths which have nothing in common with the way Islam is practiced in the Arab world.

Emperor Akbar who was the most powerful man of the South Asian subcontinent during his time started a new religion (Din-I-Ilahi) which borrowed attributes from other religions including Hinduism. There is factual evidence of Sufi saints and Islamic mystics mingling with and co-opting aspects of Hinduism. There is a fort/citadel in Hyderabad called Golconda which was the capital of the Qutb Shahi dynasty. Atop the fort is a Kali temple but the Muslims let it be because even the Muslim soldiers used to pay respects to the warrior Goddess who also doubled as Goddess of death/destruction. No matter what religion a soldier belongs to, it will take some guts to **** off such a God and superstition was rampant in Indian society back then cutting across religious lines.

Now why is it hard to believe that Muslim nomadic groups wouldn't adopt certain aspects of Hinduism which was still the dominant faith of the populace by a large margin? Thuggees were ruthless highway robbers who took pleasure in killing, Kali is a blood drinking figure closer to tantric sects of Hinduism. Add 2+2 and it will be pretty clear why they took refuge in Kali worship to justify their acts of murder which are otherwise prohibited in other interpretations of Dharmic texts and Islam. In those days human sacrifices to Kali were common among some tribes, 'Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom' showed it in the modern setting albeit in a trollish way. I mean if a 6th generation Muslim like Akbar could adopt Hindu practises is it infeasible to think that some newer (non elite, gypsy) converts wouldn't bend the rules to justify their acts?

Again I don't think they had any idea to restore Mughal rule in Delhi. These guys were on the run bandits who had always lived this life for centuries, they couldn't bother less about what happened in the power corridors of the kingdoms. I have read books about the formation of the cult. One particular interpretation was how the thuggees were original nobles of North India who were driven away by some of the Delhi Sultans who preferred Turks and Persians in the halls of the palace. These runaways who were martial in nature settled in the jungles of Central India and took to this occupation of dacoity for not just sustenance but also to create anarchy in the Empire as revenge. Since they limited themselves to the jungles and badlands they couldn't be put down until the more resourceful British took control many centuries later. I very much doubt these people had any political or religious affiliation to the political power centres, they were simply professional bandits, mantle passed from one generation to the next.

To this thoughtful post, I would also add, that this is not entirely surprising when we characterise conversion as a long drawn out process rather than as an event. In the words of anthropologist Clifford Geertz, writing in the Indonesian context, "Islamic conversion is not as a rule, sudden, total, overwhelming illumination but a slow turning to toward a new light." From the great Islamic centres in West Asia to Java in Indonesia, from the Balkans and Anatolia to North Africa and beyond, elements of the intermingling of local and Islamic practice have been identified in history at certain points.

Specifically in South Asia, we can identify many examples. It was as late as the nineteenth century in Bengal that many Muslims no longer referred to God as ‘Sri Sri Iswar’ and adopted Muslim surnames. In Pakistan the fact that the Tableeghi Jamaat has sent volunteers to villages to teach kalima, despite families in these villages for centuries being Muslim, indicates the slow process of Islamisation. 

In his study on the rise of Islam in Bengal, Richard Eaton wrote of the process of Islamization:


"from the position of historical retrospect, one may discern three analytically distinct aspects to the process, each referring to a different relationship between Islamic and Indian superhuman agencies. One of these I am calling inclusion; a second, identification; and a third, displacement. By inclusion is meant the process by which Islamic superhuman agencies became accepted in local Bengali cosmologies alongside local divinities already embedded therein. By identification is meant the process by which Islamic superhuman agencies ceased merely to coexist alongside Bengali agencies, but actually merged with them, as when the Arabic name Allah was used interchangeably with the Sanskrit Niraṇjan. And finally, by displacement is meant the process by which the names of Islamic superhuman agencies replaced those of other divinities in local cosmologies"


Eaton emphasises that this is a slow process, perceptible only through the long lens of history.

In conclusion, we should note that the process certainly accelerated in the modern period. It is in this period that holy men become more prominent. The work of influential teachers is complemented by the spread of institutions such as madrassas. Knowledge became more readily available through expansion of print. In India the Quran was translated into Urdu in the early nineteenth century. Then there is the increasing connections facilitated by more frequent travel. Of particular note is the pilgrimage to Mecca, of which an increasing number partook in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries and which the research indicates deepened Islamic knowledge and raised standards of Islamic practice. Finally, there is the impact of the movements of religious revival and reform, within both Islam and Hinduism, particularly in the nineteenth century that was prompted in part by the colonial challenge. The effect of such movements was to draw much sharper distinctions between the religious traditions.

 

[Saj]

Watched the film and I thought it was pretty flat.

Aamir Khan and Amitabh Bachchan are both Bollywood legends but even they couldn't bring much life to this drab film.

Comedy wasn't funny, storyline poor and Aamir Khan was trying to be Jonny Depp in Pirates of the Caribbean but failed miserably.

2/10

 

[msb314]

Saw this film too and thought it was okay - average at best but loved Katrina’s performance

To be honest - this topic of overcoming British rule in India is a dead horse now. We all know how it ends every time with Indian locals overthrowing their British tyrants at the end...

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

If Bollywood wants to navigate serious historical narratives it needs to part ways with the cliches. I can’t believe that I’m saying this about Bollywood but it needs to take a leaf from the book of Shoaib Mansoor and start creating some decent cinema.

 

[PakLFC]

I think the movie has been a big flop considering it's the most expensive Bollywood one ever. Not seen it and have no plans to do so.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

A "Muslim" who worships Kali, Krishna or Modi commits shirk (associatinism with the Essence of God) which is the biggest sin in the religion and one which takes you out of it with immediate effects. These peoples are disgusting tbh.

Shirk is the biggest sin, the only sin that will remain unforgiven. So a son that is essentially harmless is graver than mass murder and rape.

 

[DeadBall]

Didn't expect Amir Khan to be part of this tripe. Waiting for his next guilt trip movie about how he is much more morally superior than the rest of us.

 

[enkidu_]

Shirk is the biggest sin, the only sin that will remain unforgiven. So a son that is essentially harmless is graver than mass murder and rape.

Shirk is a crime towards God while murder/rape are crimes towards humans, they're all condemned in their own realms (eternal punishment/death sentences), but yes the worst of sinners among believers will always be better than the best out of the non believers.

Even Jesus put it that way (Mark 3:28-29) :

Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven for their sins and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin

And if you read a 2nd century Church Father, Tertullian, who penned a whole booklet against Idolatry, he pens down all the reasons why he thinks that shirk is indeed the greatest of all crimes because it leads to all of them in some way. It's another debate how Christians themselves are idolaters tho ("Avoda Zara" as Jews say).

 

[Mages]

Shirk is a crime towards God while murder/rape are crimes towards humans, they're all condemned in their own realms (eternal punishment/death sentences), but yes the worst of sinners among believers will always be better than the best out of the non believers.

Even Jesus put it that way (Mark 3:28-29) :



And if you read a 2nd century Church Father, Tertullian, who penned a whole booklet against Idolatry, he pens down all the reasons why he thinks that shirk is indeed the greatest of all crimes because it leads to all of them in some way. It's another debate how Christians themselves are idolaters tho ("Avoda Zara" as Jews say).

In that case, how touching a black stone (al-Aswad) and believing that will erase your sins ..not Shirk?

 

[shaaik]

Thuggees had both Muslims and Hindus as members, and they did worship Kali. It was like a cult those days and it was real, ancient Pakistanis (as you call it) who were members of the cult did worship this particular Goddess. They were present for many centuries and during the rule of the British posed a significant challenge to the administration/security/trade-commerce/economy, hence were systematically eliminated by the end of the 19th century.

P.S I am not aware of this movie nor do I have any plans to watch it, just responded to your surprise.

yeh, i second that. i m told multani thugs were the most dangerous of them all.

 

[enkidu_]

In that case, how touching a black stone (al-Aswad) and believing that will erase your sins ..not Shirk?

The Black Stone has no power in itself (it's not a separate deity) but by God's permission, like the miracles of men.

 

[Savak]

Aamir Khan's first major flop since Mangal Pandey in 2005. The film has been smashed critically and commercially. The budget is 300 crores and it is unlikely to barely cross more than 200 crores. He operated under the profit sharing belief meaning he takes a high percentage of profits from the collections in excess of the budget i.e. 60-70% instead of a flat fee from the budget which means this time he is going to be unpaid which is a huge loss for him given that he dedicates the entire year to one project.

 

[Itachi]

Watched the film and I thought it was pretty flat.

Aamir Khan and Amitabh Bachchan are both Bollywood legends but even they couldn't bring much life to this drab film.

Comedy wasn't funny, storyline poor and Aamir Khan was trying to be Jonny Depp in Pirates of the Caribbean but failed miserably.

2/10

Haven't watched the movie but 2? Is it that bad?

 

[Deewana Mastana]

Enough said! )

 

[Saj]

Haven't watched the movie but 2? Is it that bad?

I thought so.

It got 2 only because Aamir Khan and Amitabh did their best, but Amitabh was supposed to be this warrior of a man who lead his people through thick and thin, but the truth is the guy could barely move.

 

[Rana]

Aamir Khan's first major flop since Mangal Pandey in 2005. The film has been smashed critically and commercially. The budget is 300 crores and it is unlikely to barely cross more than 200 crores. He operated under the profit sharing belief meaning he takes a high percentage of profits from the collections in excess of the budget i.e. 60-70% instead of a flat fee from the budget which means this time he is going to be unpaid which is a huge loss for him given that he dedicates the entire year to one project.

Him and Shah Rukh Khan do this.

This is disastrous, here comes 2 films a year from Amir now

 

[Rana]

Didn't expect Amir Khan to be part of this tripe. Waiting for his next guilt trip movie about how he is much more morally superior than the rest of us.

Exactly, the guy has been so Confused recently with his movies and talk shows

 

[Suleiman]

The best bollywood movie I watched in recent times was Gangs of Waseypur and even that was loosely based off of Gangs of New York at the very least.

 

[Mages]

The Black Stone has no power in itself (it's not a separate deity) but by God's permission, like the miracles of men.

Pagans do not make a deity of all objects that they revere. They too attribute the unseen God’s power to it & this is no different from what you explained. Pagans too believe some of their sacred object being dropped from the heavens. If you read the hadiths, you will notice that the Companions were not too bemused with this & admitted they were kissing it because the prophet did it though they know it’s just a rock of no use. That’s all. The stone according to other sunnah, supposedly will have eyes & tongue on Judgement Day. Another sunnah says the stone is actually Allah’s Right Hand etc. What else to be made out of all these other than it was a pre Islamic Arab fetish which got incorporated?

Ibn Abbas narrated that:
The Messenger of Allah said about the (Black) Stone: "By Allah! Allah will raise it on the Day of Resurrection with two eyes by which it sees and a tongue that it speaks with, testifying to whoever touched it in truth."
Reference : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 961 The Book on Hajj » Hadith

Narrated `Abis bin Rabi`a:
`Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone.Had I not seen Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) kissing you I would not have kissed you."
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 1597 Book of Hajj (Pilgrimage) » Hadith

Suwaid b. Ghafala reported:
I saw Umar (Allah be pleased with him) kissing the Stone and clinging to it and saying: I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having great love for you.
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1271 a The Book of Pilgrimage

Ibn Ubaid bin Umair narrated from his father:
"Ibn Umar was clinging on the two corners (in a manner that I had not seen any of the Companions of the Prophet doing) so I said: 'O Abu Abdur-Rahman! You are clinging on the two corners in a manner that I have not seen any of the Companions of the Prophet clining.' So he said: 'I do it because I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: "Touching them atones for sins." And I heard him saying: "Whoever performs Tawaf around this House seven times and he keeps track of it, then it is as if he freed a slave." And I heard him saying: "One foot is not put down, nor another raised except that Allah removes a sin from him and records a good merit for him."
Reference : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 959 The Book on Hajj

 

[enkidu_]

Pagans do not make a deity of all objects that they revere. They too attribute the unseen God’s power to it & this is no different from what you explained. Pagans too believe some of their sacred object being dropped from the heavens. If you read the hadiths, you will notice that the Companions were not too bemused with this & admitted they were kissing it because the prophet did it though they know it’s just a rock of no use. That’s all. The stone according to other sunnah, supposedly will have eyes & tongue on Judgement Day. Another sunnah says the stone is actually Allah’s Right Hand etc. What else to be made out of all these other than it was a pre Islamic Arab fetish which got incorporated?

Ibn Abbas narrated that:
The Messenger of Allah said about the (Black) Stone: "By Allah! Allah will raise it on the Day of Resurrection with two eyes by which it sees and a tongue that it speaks with, testifying to whoever touched it in truth."
Reference : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 961 The Book on Hajj » Hadith

Narrated `Abis bin Rabi`a:
`Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone.Had I not seen Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) kissing you I would not have kissed you."
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 1597 Book of Hajj (Pilgrimage) » Hadith

Suwaid b. Ghafala reported:
I saw Umar (Allah be pleased with him) kissing the Stone and clinging to it and saying: I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having great love for you.
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1271 a The Book of Pilgrimage

Ibn Ubaid bin Umair narrated from his father:
"Ibn Umar was clinging on the two corners (in a manner that I had not seen any of the Companions of the Prophet doing) so I said: 'O Abu Abdur-Rahman! You are clinging on the two corners in a manner that I have not seen any of the Companions of the Prophet clining.' So he said: 'I do it because I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: "Touching them atones for sins." And I heard him saying: "Whoever performs Tawaf around this House seven times and he keeps track of it, then it is as if he freed a slave." And I heard him saying: "One foot is not put down, nor another raised except that Allah removes a sin from him and records a good merit for him."
Reference : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 959 The Book on Hajj

Hindoos make statues of what they consider their gods and goddesses, and worship these statues. Pagans were known to make statues/idols of what they worship, and that's what separated them from monotheists from the Torah onward. No Muslim worships the Black Stone. It's more of a sort of marker, and if you read 'Umar (r) words in the hadith you quote, he says "I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone" - that's how Muslims see it basically. It's not a sort of golden calf or something.

 

[JaDed]

View attachment 85489

Enough said! )

LMAO ,they are having their worst year, in terms of off at movies like Stree Andha dhun and Badhai ho it's pretty great lol.

 

[JaDed]

I hear it's modern version of Manoj Kumar's Kranti ,which was terrible as well, glad I Took my parents to Badhai ho and did not pay inflated price for this movie.

 

[JaDed]

Didn't expect Amir Khan to be part of this tripe. Waiting for his next guilt trip movie about how he is much more morally superior than the rest of us.

He showed Hindi cinema how to do marketing.

 

[anikrc1]

Amir khan ruined taare zamin par which had the possibility of being the only truly world class cinema of Bollywood. It's first half was cinematically as beautiful as any movie. But then Amir khan and his preaching dominates the 2d half and ruins the movie

 

[anikrc1]

lol

Well care to mention any Bollywood movie
Better than tare zamin pat's first half? May be I went too far with it being truly world class, but no Bollywood movie comes close. No smoking and gangs are distant 2d and 3d for me

 

[Rana]

Well care to mention any Bollywood movie
Better than tare zamin pat's first half? May be I went too far with it being truly world class, but no Bollywood movie comes close. No smoking and gangs are distant 2d and 3d for me

Taare Zameen per is ok and a great effort.

You cant compare it to the cinematic excellence of a movie like Rajneeti (killer example).

 

[Savak]

I thought so.

It got 2 only because Aamir Khan and Amitabh did their best, but Amitabh was supposed to be this warrior of a man who lead his people through thick and thin, but the truth is the guy could barely move.

Lol the man is in his mid 70's. He can't do these aggressive roles anymore.

 

[Mages]

Hindoos make statues of what they consider their gods and goddesses, and worship these statues. Pagans were known to make statues/idols of what they worship, and that's what separated them from monotheists from the Torah onward. No Muslim worships the Black Stone. It's more of a sort of marker, and if you read 'Umar (r) words in the hadith you quote, he says "I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone" - that's how Muslims see it basically. It's not a sort of golden calf or something.

Attributing “ability” to a stone, then doing ritual on it to obtain the benefit of getting ones sins erased is idolatry too. Umar thinks it’s a useless rock but the prophet clearly taught the favour it will bestow. Anyway, in 930AD, Abu Tahir al-Jannabi attacked & pillaged the Kaaba (which Allah failed to protect) .In fact he stood over the rubble and taunted Allah to send the mythical birds in the Quran to stop him. He then stole the black stone and the Muslims then had to beg him and pay ransom to get it back. Surely the stone must have meant more to Muslims than you claim.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Attributing “ability” to a stone, then doing ritual on it to obtain the benefit of getting ones sins erased is idolatry too. Umar thinks it’s a useless rock but the prophet clearly taught the favour it will bestow. Anyway, in 930AD, Abu Tahir al-Jannabi attacked & pillaged the Kaaba (which Allah failed to protect) .In fact he stood over the rubble and taunted Allah to send the mythical birds in the Quran to stop him. He then stole the black stone and the Muslims then had to beg him and pay ransom to get it back. Surely the stone must have meant more to Muslims than you claim.

Welcome new member

Do you have any opinion on this film seeing as you have honoured us with your entry in this thread?

 

[enkidu_]

Attributing “ability” to a stone, then doing ritual on it to obtain the benefit of getting ones sins erased is idolatry too. Umar thinks it’s a useless rock but the prophet clearly taught the favour it will bestow. Anyway, in 930AD, Abu Tahir al-Jannabi attacked & pillaged the Kaaba (which Allah failed to protect) .In fact he stood over the rubble and taunted Allah to send the mythical birds in the Quran to stop him. He then stole the black stone and the Muslims then had to beg him and pay ransom to get it back. Surely the stone must have meant more to Muslims than you claim.

It's not idolatry or else you ignore the basic definition of idolatry. Muslims don't consider the Black Stone in itself to share divinity with god (shirk) or to be an image of Him or something like idolaters and pagans still do, or the Israelite's did with the golden calf and were punished in harsh terms afterwards as well. I don't even know what's your point when the Qur'an keeps bashing shirk/polytheism all over.

And the Qarmatians harming it or even the Ka'aba has absolutely no link with this discussion, in fact there are dozens of ahadith about its destruction, and the Qarmatians themselves have withered away while the Ka'aba/Black Stone are still there.

 

[JaDed]

Bollytwats deserve such films. They are the sole reason why this awful industry keeps on churning such ghatiya movies.

Makes me question my intelligence that I share nationality with these Paindoos.

Enjoyed Badhai Ho and Andha dhun at same qtr as Thugs came but no blame it on bollytwats and question your nationality based on their entertainment choice but not on them rioting over movies ?

 

[TM Riddle]

Enjoyed Badhai Ho and Andha dhun at same qtr as Thugs came but no blame it on bollytwats and question your nationality based on their entertainment choice but not on them rioting over movies ?

I never supported riots Jaded Bhai.

 

[JaDed]

I never supported riots Jaded Bhai.

But you never questioned your Rajput regionality with em based on that.

I'm sure you are aware an average villager wouldn't understand inception or Godfather.

For em Sholay is still entertaining.

 

[TM Riddle]

But you never questioned your Rajput regionality with em based on that.

I'm sure you are aware an average villager wouldn't understand inception or Godfather.

For em Sholay is still entertaining.

Good job trying to compare a rubbish like Thugs to a classic like Sholay.

You can take a paindoo out of Punjab they say..

 

[JaDed]

Good job trying to compare a rubbish like Thugs to a classic like Sholay.

You can take a paindoo out of Punjab they say..

Naw i didn't, am giving perspective coz u never watch Bollywood as per your own say how should I Know you watched Sholay.

I don't mind being paindoo in any case.

 

[Saj]

Lol the man is in his mid 70's. He can't do these aggressive roles anymore.

Which makes him dancing and doing fight scenes totally ridiculous.

 

[Swashbuckler]

@KB very informative post, thanks for penning it down so articulately.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I thought so.

It got 2 only because Aamir Khan and Amitabh did their best, but Amitabh was supposed to be this warrior of a man who lead his people through thick and thin, but the truth is the guy could barely move.

You went and watched this?

 

[shaz619]

Is this movie worth a watch ? I have not seen any bollywood movie since FAN

 

[Mages]

It's not idolatry or else you ignore the basic definition of idolatry. Muslims don't consider the Black Stone in itself to share divinity with god (shirk) or to be an image of Him or something like idolaters and pagans still do, or the Israelite's did with the golden calf and were punished in harsh terms afterwards as well. I don't even know what's your point when the Qur'an keeps bashing shirk/polytheism all over.

Islam today not just the Quran. The hadith says the rock will be witness on Judgement Day, will have eyes & tougue , it's the right hand of Allah , will erase sins etc. It's not just Al Aswad, it's also about the stone at Yemeni corner etc. Why does a supposedly strict monotheism need all these stones anyway , unless these are old Arab beliefs incorporated into the new one.

And the Qarmatians harming it or even the Ka'aba has absolutely no link with this discussion, in fact there are dozens of ahadith about its destruction, and the Qarmatians themselves have withered away while the Ka'aba/Black Stone are still there.

My main point about the Qarmatians was to show that unlike Umar & you who thinks its just a useless rock, monotheist Muslims were willing to even bribe the attackers to get back the black stone. Qarmatians ae just mortals who come & go. How does that excuses Allah's inability to protect his House from destruction is beyond me.

 

[MenInG]

Thread is about a movie, keep ideological discussions for another thread

 

[enkidu_]

Islam today not just the Quran. The hadith says the rock will be witness on Judgement Day, will have eyes & tougue , it's the right hand of Allah , will erase sins etc. It's not just Al Aswad, it's also about the stone at Yemeni corner etc. Why does a supposedly strict monotheism need all these stones anyway , unless these are old Arab beliefs incorporated into the new one.

None of these constitute a characteristic of a separate deity. The Qur'an too will intercede at the Day of Judgement, the right hand of Allah (swt) "on earth" (important addition) is symbolic like Khalid ibn Walid being called SayfuLlah doesn't mean he's the literal sword of Allah (swt), erase sins with the permission of Allah (swt) not on his own like a separate deity, etc

You're telling me about incorporating old Arab beliefs while the prophet (s) literally destroyed their much so-much prized idols one by one, and out of all the heresies which sprung up in the Islamic world, none ever was about reclaiming these old Arab beliefs - their gods and goddesses have been shut up forever. If the prophet (s) wanted to compromise with Arab polytheism he would have done it in the 23 years or so of his mission.

My main point about the Qarmatians was to show that unlike Umar & you who thinks its just a useless rock, monotheist Muslims were willing to even bribe the attackers to get back the black stone. Qarmatians ae just mortals who come & go. How does that excuses Allah's inability to protect his House from destruction is beyond me.

I'm just telling you that the destruction of the Ka'abah itself is an eschatological reality in the ahadith as well being an allegory (the sanctity of Muslims - blood and wealth - being greater than that of the Ka'abah). There's not the intensity of the "divine protection" you keep referring to here. So Qarmatians attacking it has no relevance in this discussion. And of course Muslims would want it back, it's a parcel of the whole ritual but it doesn't mean that they consider it divine, like if you want your stolen car back it won't mean that either.

 

[Saj]

You went and watched this?

Yes unfortunately.

Around 3 hours of my life that I won't get back.

 

[Mamba Red]

What a **** copy of Pirates of the Carribean, Bollywood is just "lets copy" all the Western, Korean, Japanese movies, I only saw the trailer and I laughed, just another cheap copy bought to you from Bollywood

 

[Mages]

I'm just telling you that the destruction of the Ka'abah itself is an eschatological reality in the ahadith as well being an allegory (the sanctity of Muslims - blood and wealth - being greater than that of the Ka'abah). There's not the intensity of the "divine protection" you keep referring to here. So Qarmatians attacking it has no relevance in this discussion. And of course Muslims would want it back, it's a parcel of the whole ritual but it doesn't mean that they consider it divine, like if you want your stolen car back it won't mean that either.

I'll leave this as it is as the admin advised but I like your analogy to a car. Yeah, if my car got stolen, will definately track the thief & take back the car after paying a ransom...at market rate of course

 

[MenInG]

Yes unfortunately.

Around 3 hours of my life that I won't get back.

You should have done what I do in such movies, have a very comfortable few hours of sleep

 

[MenInG]

Can we keep religion out of this thread? How hard can it be?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Yes unfortunately.

Around 3 hours of my life that I won't get back.

I am seriously considering opening a thread on PP titled

"Movie recommendations for Saj"

You have been wasting way too many 3hrs of your life.

 

[cricketjoshila]

You should have done what I do in such movies, have a very comfortable few hours of sleep

The sound doesnot disturb you?

 

[MenInG]

The sound doesnot disturb you?

Sleep like a baby and have been told off for snoring.... Family hates take me out for movies. It has to be the perfect one for me to watch all of it.

 

[Kaptan]

Amir once said, "Indians can't make movies like inception".
And he proved it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Amir once said, "Indians can't make movies like inception".
And he proved it.

That is because they are in thrall to every other influence hence they have lost sight of their own. Think about it. A film about Thuggees should be something which they should have all the inside knowledge of culture and history. They really could have made a fantastic film had any of them had any ioriginiity, integrity or an ounce of self worth. Instead they tried to copy pirates of the caribbean and Johnny Depp's character from 20 years ago to tell their own story.

 

[Rana]

Why do you think Amir and SRK never went to Hollywood?

They would fail miserably and be gravely out of place. They can’t do leading roles in Hollywood and that would hurt their egos massively.

 

[introvert]

Why do you think Amir and SRK never went to Hollywood?

They would fail miserably and be gravely out of place. They can’t do leading roles in Hollywood and that would hurt their egos massively.

seriously Why would they except such a small 1min or 2min roles. They are right in their mind to reject those chindi roles.

 

[JaDed]

Why do you think Amir and SRK never went to Hollywood?

They would fail miserably and be gravely out of place. They can’t do leading roles in Hollywood and that would hurt their egos massively.

Do you think lio would be a big actor in Bombay cinema?

 

[CricketCartoons]

Do you think lio would be a big actor in Bombay cinema?

the kapoors, khannas, kumars and khans of copywood are not fit to tie his shoelaces.

 

[JaDed]

the kapoors, khannas, kumars and khans of copywood are not fit to tie his shoelaces.

Answer the question

 

[JaDed]

I'm sure star wars with sound explosions in space becoming highest grossing franchise is what Amir Khan should
take inspirationn from.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Do you think lio would be a big actor in Bombay cinema?

Who is lio?