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Can Mohammad Abbas overtake Mohammad Amir in ICC Test rankings?

fazleefridi

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M Amir, is a good Test bowler. But, a bit over hyped. Might be, due to his pre ban performances. He's ranked 41. I am a great fan of M Amir, myself.

M Abbas, was written off, way before he debuted. But he has proved/ looked, that he is an international material, in Tests. Just one series(Small sample size), and climbed to rank 44.

M Amir was responsible for 13 scalps, whereas, M Abbas for 15.

Can M Abbas, overtake M Amir, in the ICC Test rankings?
 
Overtaking someone ranked 41 shouldn't be too hard.
 
As if, Mohammad Amir gets the ball to miss the edge of the bat by a few mm. Wickets are overhyped, narrow misses are not
 
Amir has been disappointing in test, he does not run hard and bowl fast, he becomes medium pacer in test. He is making a big mistake of going the route of medium pacer to be in test team. He is not fit enough to play test cricket, his intensity and pace goes down after first test in last 2/3 series...His effectiveness in LOIs will be reduced with this half fitness and half hearted effort in all formats...Something has to be changed, status quo is not working :acp:

Abbas is an OK medium pacer, not somebody that can make you jump from the chair...Now our standards are low, no real fast bowler in the pipeline, all we got are spinners or medium pacers...Pakistan has not produce a fast bowler in last 10 years, which is appalling, where as AUS/SA/ENG are producing left and right, we are no more a nation with talent(that was the only thing working for us in past) :((
 
Amir has been disappointing in test, he does not run hard and bowl fast, he becomes medium pacer in test. He is making a big mistake of going the route of medium pacer to be in test team. He is not fit enough to play test cricket, his intensity and pace goes down after first test in last 2/3 series...His effectiveness in LOIs will be reduced with this half fitness and half hearted effort in all formats...Something has to be changed, status quo is not working :acp:

Abbas is an OK medium pacer, not somebody that can make you jump from the chair...Now our standards are low, no real fast bowler in the pipeline, all we got are spinners or medium pacers...Pakistan has not produce a fast bowler in last 10 years, which is appalling, where as AUS/SA/ENG are producing left and right, we are no more a nation with talent(that was the only thing working for us in past) :((


Amir has improved and will improve further with right diet, training and help from Wasim. He may not become mindblowing Amir of 2010 English tour but Insha'Allah He will become Excellent Test pacer.

He deserved to be dropped for this series based on merit but he was picked and did not disappoint and was much improved. He had a very good series.


We have no express pacer in domestic. Not even one.


We have 2 young FC Right Arm pacers who are currently Fast Medium ie Bilal Shah Adridi & Atif Jabbar. Both at best can become Right Arm Fast provided they put in hard yards. They both can outdo Wahab in Test Cricket.


Than we have guys like Adeel Khan, Ehtisham Sultan, Mohammad Zahid junior & Mohammad Umar aka Umari Pacer who are all capable of bowling few deliveries in FAST range and if developed well they can become good pacers. None has made FC debut Yet.


We don’t have any Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Imran in domestic. No express pacer or future express pacer but we have a decent pool.


Majority of James, Anderson, Philander, McGrath's Test Wickets have been on deliveries which had same medium fast speed of Abass. Only McGrath was 4 & Asif was 2 inches taller than Abass which gives them edge.


Abass has looked better than Tanveer Ahmed, Ehsan, Rahat, Junaid, Sohail, Aizaz, Imran jnr, Gul etc and that's all what matters. If He can sustain his performances and improve his endurance stamenna than He is exactly what we need.
 
You are sounding as if he will remain 41th, Amir's ranking is improving.

Hearing ever since his comeback. Yes his ranking improved because he was up against ATG Windies batters.

Went missing in all previous series' and bowled like a Champion against WI.
 
Amir has improved and will improve further with right diet, training and help from Wasim. He may not become mindblowing Amir of 2010 English tour but Insha'Allah He will become Excellent Test pacer.

He deserved to be dropped for this series based on merit but he was picked and did not disappoint and was much improved. He had a very good series.


We have no express pacer in domestic. Not even one.


We have 2 young FC Right Arm pacers who are currently Fast Medium ie Bilal Shah Adridi & Atif Jabbar. Both at best can become Right Arm Fast provided they put in hard yards. They both can outdo Wahab in Test Cricket.


Than we have guys like Adeel Khan, Ehtisham Sultan, Mohammad Zahid junior & Mohammad Umar aka Umari Pacer who are all capable of bowling few deliveries in FAST range and if developed well they can become good pacers. None has made FC debut Yet.


We don’t have any Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Imran in domestic. No express pacer or future express pacer but we have a decent pool.


Majority of James, Anderson, Philander, McGrath's Test Wickets have been on deliveries which had same medium fast speed of Abass. Only McGrath was 4 & Asif was 2 inches taller than Abass which gives them edge.


Abass has looked better than Tanveer Ahmed, Ehsan, Rahat, Junaid, Sohail, Aizaz, Imran jnr, Gul etc and that's all what matters. If He can sustain his performances and improve his endurance stamenna than He is exactly what we need.


I disagree that Amir bowled well in the series, he bowled well in first test only...After that his intensity, pace went down...He is not fit enough to play test cricket, I am not sure playing him more is going to make him fit. He is becoming a medium pacer, this is going in wrong direction.

Secondly, not having a fast bowler in domestic is a serious issue, without couple of out an out fast bowlers, we will remain #8 team in all formats, fast bowler is the bench mark of success in Cricket, without that you just are minnows for all practical purposes...

Bowlers like McGrath and Asif are even rare breed, they were tall, HW is tall and hence effective. If Abbas was 4-6" taller with same speed and control, I would be lot more excited. He is not that tall, only 6'2", magic starts for medium pacers usually at 6'5-6" and above...Asif was exceptional talent, only once in last 70 years we have seen such a skillful bowler with seam/swing, even he had hard time early on...Few inches make a big difference, imagine if Hasan was 6'2" or even Waqar/Shoiab were same height as Wasim, I bet you their avg in AUS would not be 45 and we would have won atleast a test series in 90s...If you have same speed and control at 5" extra height nothing can beat that!!
 
Amir has improved and will improve further with right diet, training and help from Wasim. He may not become mindblowing Amir of 2010 English tour but Insha'Allah He will become Excellent Test pacer.

He deserved to be dropped for this series based on merit but he was picked and did not disappoint and was much improved. He had a very good series.


We have no express pacer in domestic. Not even one.


We have 2 young FC Right Arm pacers who are currently Fast Medium ie Bilal Shah Adridi & Atif Jabbar. Both at best can become Right Arm Fast provided they put in hard yards. They both can outdo Wahab in Test Cricket.


Than we have guys like Adeel Khan, Ehtisham Sultan, Mohammad Zahid junior & Mohammad Umar aka Umari Pacer who are all capable of bowling few deliveries in FAST range and if developed well they can become good pacers. None has made FC debut Yet.


We don’t have any Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Imran in domestic. No express pacer or future express pacer but we have a decent pool.


Majority of James, Anderson, Philander, McGrath's Test Wickets have been on deliveries which had same medium fast speed of Abass. Only McGrath was 4 & Asif was 2 inches taller than Abass which gives them edge.


Abass has looked better than Tanveer Ahmed, Ehsan, Rahat, Junaid, Sohail, Aizaz, Imran jnr, Gul etc and that's all what matters. If He can sustain his performances and improve his endurance stamenna than He is exactly what we need.

what sre ur thoughts about sameen gul??/and mir hamza??
 
Amir, Hassan and Abbas form a decent combo.

In next 12 months Pak plays 6 tests.

3 each against SL and ENG. Amir and Hassan has good, off time, after CT.

In next 12 months, if pakistan can find 2/1 more pacer that would be great.

5 seam bowlers for outside Asia

Amir
Abbas
Hassan
Fahim(AR)
Hamza/ Wahab/ Other
 
what sre ur thoughts about sameen gul??/and mir hamza??


Sameen at 16-17 Lost pace due to an injury and long lay off. Don't know he will be able to revive his pace or not. If he does than yes. Currently Asad Reza is better than him but Sameen is still genuine 19-20 and can improve.

Irfanullah Shah has more potential than Sameen currently provided he gains 15 kg weight. He is more skillful but very weak. He can make Pak team in future.


Mir Hamza is suited for Green wickets of early English Summer or SA Test wickets. For UAE as a swing bowler he is slow.


If Majid Ali regains his form than he is better than current Sadaf & Mir Hamza. Don't know what happened to him post injury.
 
Amir has improved and will improve further with right diet, training and help from Wasim. He may not become mindblowing Amir of 2010 English tour but Insha'Allah He will become Excellent Test pacer.

He deserved to be dropped for this series based on merit but he was picked and did not disappoint and was much improved. He had a very good series.


We have no express pacer in domestic. Not even one.


We have 2 young FC Right Arm pacers who are currently Fast Medium ie Bilal Shah Adridi & Atif Jabbar. Both at best can become Right Arm Fast provided they put in hard yards. They both can outdo Wahab in Test Cricket.


Than we have guys like Adeel Khan, Ehtisham Sultan, Mohammad Zahid junior & Mohammad Umar aka Umari Pacer who are all capable of bowling few deliveries in FAST range and if developed well they can become good pacers. None has made FC debut Yet.


We don’t have any Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Imran in domestic. No express pacer or future express pacer but we have a decent pool.


Majority of James, Anderson, Philander, McGrath's Test Wickets have been on deliveries which had same medium fast speed of Abass. Only McGrath was 4 & Asif was 2 inches taller than Abass which gives them edge.


Abass has looked better than Tanveer Ahmed, Ehsan, Rahat, Junaid, Sohail, Aizaz, Imran jnr, Gul etc and that's all what matters. If He can sustain his performances and improve his endurance stamenna than He is exactly what we need.

Reading that we don't even have one express bowler in our domestic circuit is heartbreaking. What seems to be the problem ? As far as I remember it wasn't an issue before, I knew the talent pool was suffering but didn't realize it was so deficient.
 
Reading that we don't even have one express bowler in our domestic circuit is heartbreaking. What seems to be the problem ? As far as I remember it wasn't an issue before, I knew the talent pool was suffering but didn't realize it was so deficient.


Well I have nothing to say to be honest. I won't blame pitches or system. Previously All ie Waqar, Shoaib, Zahid, Sami all came all of a sudden from nowhere. All had natural ability to bowl fast.


One can only hope that suddenly some youngster comes up all of a sudden but it hasn't been happening. Last One was Sami 2001.
 
Well I have nothing to say to be honest. I won't blame pitches or system. Previously All ie Waqar, Shoaib, Zahid, Sami all came all of a sudden from nowhere. All had natural ability to bowl fast.


One can only hope that suddenly some youngster comes up all of a sudden but it hasn't been happening. Last One was Sami 2001.

And that was 16 years ago. Perhaps youngsters have become disheartened and aren't looking at cricket as a profession, even though we're a cricket mad country.
 
And that was 16 years ago. Perhaps youngsters have become disheartened and aren't looking at cricket as a profession, even though we're a cricket mad country.


PSL has once again attracted youngsters because now there is Hope. Still it is the most played sports and craze is massive. Yeah 16 years is long. It's been a long wait.
 
Maybe it's just me but barring the first test I felt Amir lacked the intensity and passion that is needed of a spearhead. If he continues bowling like this, don't see him improving his ranking anytime soon. Abbas on the other hand was a lot more energetic. But it is still early days for him and can't really rate him based on just one series.
 
Sameen at 16-17 Lost pace due to an injury and long lay off. Don't know he will be able to revive his pace or not. If he does than yes. Currently Asad Reza is better than him but Sameen is still genuine 19-20 and can improve.

Irfanullah Shah has more potential than Sameen currently provided he gains 15 kg weight. He is more skillful but very weak. He can make Pak team in future.


Mir Hamza is suited for Green wickets of early English Summer or SA Test wickets. For UAE as a swing bowler he is slow.


If Majid Ali regains his form than he is better than current Sadaf & Mir Hamza. Don't know what happened to him post injury.

sameen operates in 135 kph and i think with good nutrition and training he can be a 140 kph bowler..his seam position is too good for hi age??
 
sameen operates in 135 kph and i think with good nutrition and training he can be a 140 kph bowler..his seam position is too good for hi age??

Yes. He has big hands and that helps wrt ideal release. His runup is very sluggish and lacks rhythm. He must improve his runup and follow through. Good thing is that he has had good start to his domestic career and his attitude is almost as good as Asghar's.
 
When was the last time Pakistan had a pacer in the top 10?
 
When was the last time Pakistan had a pacer in the top 10?

Highest rank pacer from Pakistan

End of 2016 - 25th
End of 2015 - 31st
End of 2014 - 15th
End of 2013 - 22nd
End of 2012 - 18th
End of 2011 - 17th
End of 2010 - 9th

Answer is 6-7 years back.
 
So much hype but so less to show . If u believe the hype regarding pak pace bowlers u will think as some world beaters but reality is far away from hype
 
Highest rank pacer from Pakistan

End of 2016 - 25th
End of 2015 - 31st
End of 2014 - 15th
End of 2013 - 22nd
End of 2012 - 18th
End of 2011 - 17th
End of 2010 - 9th

Answer is 6-7 years back.

Which one of our pacers made it into the top 20s in 2011/12/14? I honestly can't think of anyone.junaid Khan is the only name that comes to mind but even he's been average for most of this time period.
 
Which one of our pacers made it into the top 20s in 2011/12/14? I honestly can't think of anyone.junaid Khan is the only name that comes to mind but even he's been average for most of this time period.

2014 - Junaid
2012 - Umar Gul
2011 - Umar Gul
 
They compliment each other very well. Abbas could do with just being a couple of yards faster but he’s a typical English type seamer and very similar to Azhar mahmood who was very successful in uk. Abbas is Accurate full and slippery at first then settles into a nice line and length keeping it tight. Amir at the moment has lost his swing but it’s moving a little for him in first few overs. But he’s bowling a fuller length which is good to see
 
They compliment each other very well. Abbas could do with just being a couple of yards faster but he’s a typical English type seamer and very similar to Azhar mahmood who was very successful in uk. Abbas is Accurate full and slippery at first then settles into a nice line and length keeping it tight. Amir at the moment has lost his swing but it’s moving a little for him in first few overs. But he’s bowling a fuller length which is good to see

I don't disagree, but if he's also been excellent in the Windies, and the UAE, which are graveyards for pace bowlers, don't we need to reconsider this understanding of him as some kind of English green top specialist? He is simply a very good bowler, with skills to do well in many different conditions. On current form,and on the basis of his domestic record, he should be first pick for the Test side, ahead of any other pacer.
 
M Abbas's bowling ave. is < than 20. Amir's is 32. There is just no comparison.

If you are a fast bowler playing for Pakistan, you best bet is to bowl balls that get you a bowled or an LBW. Getting nicks off your balls is are likely to get dropped.
 
I don't disagree, but if he's also been excellent in the Windies, and the UAE, which are graveyards for pace bowlers, don't we need to reconsider this understanding of him as some kind of English green top specialist? He is simply a very good bowler, with skills to do well in many different conditions. On current form,and on the basis of his domestic record, he should be first pick for the Test side, ahead of any other pacer.

He should never be first pick of the bowlers. Let me say this. Abbas is ok as third seamer very much like razaq or Azhar mahmood were. But where they had wicket taking bowlers alongside them and could happily settle into line and length (tight medium pace) currently we have no wicket taking opening bowlers. Rahat and amir will not get a wicket at lords. Abbass opening the bowling is simply highlighting our lack of fast bowling resources. He’s a good little opening bowler but in the English county circuit bowlers like him are dime a dozen. Cook and root will eat him for breakfast.
 
He should never be first pick of the bowlers. Let me say this. Abbas is ok as third seamer very much like razaq or Azhar mahmood were. But where they had wicket taking bowlers alongside them and could happily settle into line and length (tight medium pace) currently we have no wicket taking opening bowlers. Rahat and amir will not get a wicket at lords. Abbass opening the bowling is simply highlighting our lack of fast bowling resources. He’s a good little opening bowler but in the English county circuit bowlers like him are dime a dozen. Cook and root will eat him for breakfast.

Have you actually been watching the match? Like seen him bowl?

It is no accident he has been the top FC bowler in the country two seasons running.

The comparison to Razzaq is pretty ambitious.
 
Firstly Do you think I would comment without seeing him bowl against Ireland over after over?

Secondly I’m not being disparaging he’s a lovely medium pacer. I didn’t compare him to AR. I compared him to Azhar mahmood who was a couple of notches below razzaq in the bowling dept. I’d give my right hand for another razzaq (early career razzaq) talking bowling only.

Coming back to abbass I stand by what I say. Bowlers like this proliferate in the English county scene. Bowlers like this need a wicket taking bowler alongside them. On his own yes he will bowl well and bowl tight but Rahat or amir at the other end will be going at 4 rpo which kind of nullifies his effectiveness but I expect he will always pick up an early wicket or two. We got away with it against Ireland but England will feast on our bowling. You just need to look back at 2010 tour. No matter how good asif and amir were having Gul completely messed up our attack in the early matches. However good abbbas is with amir, rahat is gonna mess it up. Asif in the middle overs was not that effective. Abbass in the middle will not be so effective.
 
Well I had to ask because nothing of what you said squares with what I saw.

ll have fun revisiting this down the line with you.

Razzaq finished his career with a bowling average of 36.

Abbas' is currently at 18.

You think he was the best bowler in Pakistan two season's running for no reason?
 
Firstly Do you think I would comment without seeing him bowl against Ireland over after over?

Secondly I’m not being disparaging he’s a lovely medium pacer. I didn’t compare him to AR. I compared him to Azhar mahmood who was a couple of notches below razzaq in the bowling dept. I’d give my right hand for another razzaq (early career razzaq) talking bowling only.

Coming back to abbass I stand by what I say. Bowlers like this proliferate in the English county scene. Bowlers like this need a wicket taking bowler alongside them. On his own yes he will bowl well and bowl tight but Rahat or amir at the other end will be going at 4 rpo which kind of nullifies his effectiveness but I expect he will always pick up an early wicket or two. We got away with it against Ireland but England will feast on our bowling. You just need to look back at 2010 tour. No matter how good asif and amir were having Gul completely messed up our attack in the early matches. However good abbbas is with amir, rahat is gonna mess it up. Asif in the middle overs was not that effective. Abbass in the middle will not be so effective.

Just to be clear, you are here arguing the Abbas is a dime a dozen bowler by comparing him to...Asif?
 
No Asif was a once in a generation bowler.

I’m saying the weak link in the attack is the issue. When there’s a weak link in the attack a medium pacer is less effective.
 
Pakistan's own Philander. He will pick up wickets but will never get the recognition because he is not fast.
 
^^ Who cares about recognition if he keeps on picking up wickets.. I feel he will be our best pacer in the coming series
 
Abbas is beauty with brain
He will get u wickets everywhere; yes even on pancakes in UAE
 
That was settled quickly.

Abbas is now Pakistan's highest ranked Test pace bowler.

Both Hasan and Abbas will be above Amir by the end of the England tour is my bet.
 
Mohammad Abbas - 29th rank
Mohammad Amir - 37th rank

End of thread.
 
Well I had to ask because nothing of what you said squares with what I saw.

ll have fun revisiting this down the line with you.

Razzaq finished his career with a bowling average of 36.

Abbas' is currently at 18.

You think he was the best bowler in Pakistan two season's running for no reason?

I think I was cautious enough to write early razzaq. Please re read. Razzaq went downhill fast in mid 2000’s but 1999-2005 he was an incredible all rounder. But let’s not digress.

I have to apologise about Pakistan domestic tournaments because I can’t watch them in uk. However there is precedent. Tanvir Ahmed, samiullah, were fantastic domestic bowlers but at international level got found out possibly because they were selected too late. I mentioned these guys because they are carbon copies of Abbass. I didn’t mention Abdul Rauf, Sohail Khan, talha because they are different types.

Abbass is more your Yasir Arafat , Azhar mahmood, tanvir Ahmed type. He will do ok with the new ball for the first ten overs but in the middle over will need a wicket taker. Remember samiulla, tanvir bowled alongside Sami. Azhar bowled alongside waqar and wasim. Then there was always a good spinner to keep things tight. I’m just highlighting that the issue is Amir needs to up his game and Rahat needs discarding ASAP. Hasan Ali and even wahab is an option. But I know from previous posts you and I both hate the sight of scattergun wahab. I just think our bowling cupboard is a little bare. Wahab played exactly this role in 2010 series at the oval. A wicket taker when it became flat for amir and asif. He was too long coming and we persisted with an out of sorts Gul for two long in the initial tests. We are about to make this very mistake by having Rahat.
 


I think I was cautious enough to write early razzaq. Please re read. Razzaq went downhill fast in mid 2000’s but 1999-2005 he was an incredible all rounder. But let’s not digress.

I have to apologise about Pakistan domestic tournaments because I can’t watch them in uk. However there is precedent. Tanvir Ahmed, samiullah, were fantastic domestic bowlers but at international level got found out possibly because they were selected too late. I mentioned these guys because they are carbon copies of Abbass. I didn’t mention Abdul Rauf, Sohail Khan, talha because they are different types.

Abbass is more your Yasir Arafat , Azhar mahmood, tanvir Ahmed type. He will do ok with the new ball for the first ten overs but in the middle over will need a wicket taker. Remember samiulla, tanvir bowled alongside Sami. Azhar bowled alongside waqar and wasim. Then there was always a good spinner to keep things tight. I’m just highlighting that the issue is Amir needs to up his game and Rahat needs discarding ASAP. Hasan Ali and even wahab is an option. But I know from previous posts you and I both hate the sight of scattergun wahab. I just think our bowling cupboard is a little bare. Wahab played exactly this role in 2010 series at the oval. A wicket taker when it became flat for amir and asif. He was too long coming and we persisted with an out of sorts Gul for two long in the initial tests. We are about to make this very mistake by having Rahat.

When did Samiullah get found out? He never played Test cricket, just 2 ODIs but his List A was not anything special at all. Tanvir ended up averaging a respectable 26 in Tests, which tracks his 27 FC average quite decently, before being dropped, maybe because he was getting on in the years. But he
never got the chance say Rahat did. More to the point, Abbas's stats are quite a bit better than Tanvir's on most counts. And why should these players be cited as the only possible precedent? Why not Asif,
or even someone like Gul, who was serviceable for some time, whose main problem was that he was persisted with for too long, yes, as you say.
 
Quite simply because asif Gul etc are a slightly different mould. They are a lot taller than abbass and therefore can generate more bounce.

Tanvir, Azhar mahmood Yasir Arafat Abbas all look to be around 5.10 or there abouts. It’s because I’ve seen them in televised matches I can speak from observation which is this....

In the uk lords slows down on day 4/5 regardless of month. Yes May and June there is more moisture but especially on day 1 &2 otherwise it’s flat as a pancake. If you look at previous matches particularly 2010 you will note that amir and asif bowled well got early wickets but then broad dropped anchor for a 100. Similar in 2016 it was really hard to prise out the last batsman despite Yasir heroics. Wahab I think from memory for the break through.

Moral of the story... a short medium pacer becomes ineffective on a wicket that doesn’t do much in the middle overs unless there is a top class spinner to take the burden of the soft ball or a wicket taker to pluck a wicket out of nowhere. Abbass bowling with a half fit amir and rahat with only shadab for cover is asking for trouble.
 
Quite simply because asif Gul etc are a slightly different mould. They are a lot taller than abbass and therefore can generate more bounce.

Tanvir, Azhar mahmood Yasir Arafat Abbas all look to be around 5.10 or there abouts. It’s because I’ve seen them in televised matches I can speak from observation which is this....

In the uk lords slows down on day 4/5 regardless of month. Yes May and June there is more moisture but especially on day 1 &2 otherwise it’s flat as a pancake. If you look at previous matches particularly 2010 you will note that amir and asif bowled well got early wickets but then broad dropped anchor for a 100. Similar in 2016 it was really hard to prise out the last batsman despite Yasir heroics. Wahab I think from memory for the break through.

Moral of the story... a short medium pacer becomes ineffective on a wicket that doesn’t do much in the middle overs unless there is a top class spinner to take the burden of the soft ball or a wicket taker to pluck a wicket out of nowhere. Abbass bowling with a half fit amir and rahat with only shadab for cover is asking for trouble.

Bump.
 
Abbas is a brilliant test player. He's improved a lot in the last year or so. Deserves more credit.
 

But Abbas is bowling with two top class spinners which is what I always said..if amir was bowling alongside Abbas it would nullify his main weapon which is to dry up runs and then take wickets. Abbas is a typical medium pacer.
 
But Abbas is bowling with two top class spinners which is what I always said..if amir was bowling alongside Abbas it would nullify his main weapon which is to dry up runs and then take wickets. Abbas is a typical medium pacer.

I believe this was your argument about Abbas a while ago:

"He should never be first pick of the bowlers. Let me say this. Abbas is ok as third seamer very much like razaq or Azhar mahmood were... Abbass opening the bowling is simply highlighting our lack of fast bowling resources. He’s a good little opening bowler but in the English county circuit bowlers like him are dime a dozen..."
 
I believe this was your argument about Abbas a while ago:

"He should never be first pick of the bowlers. Let me say this. Abbas is ok as third seamer very much like razaq or Azhar mahmood were... Abbass opening the bowling is simply highlighting our lack of fast bowling resources. He’s a good little opening bowler but in the English county circuit bowlers like him are dime a dozen..."

Yes I agree with what I wrote and I would write that again. The simple fact is he only has an impact because this constricting style of bowling of a medium pacer relies on the remaining bowlers of the attack pulling their weight like Bilal and Yasir. Even wahab though he’s a spray gun and gone wicketless bowled better than amir has in two years.

So to summarise medium pacers like Abbas rely on wickets generated from the pressure of drying up runs and these types of bowlers are not uncommon. What is uncommon and very special is to devise an attack of three or four bowlers all tight and able to attack at the same time.

On the other hand put abbass (heaven forbid) with rahat and wahab and he’ll be a completely different bowler.

Aaqib javed, Azhar Mahmood, Abdul razzaq, abbass all are very similar types of bowlers. They didn’t have long test careers but were mighty effective while they bowled alongside some great and accurate pacers/spinners
 
Amir has improved and will improve further with right diet, training and help from Wasim. He may not become mindblowing Amir of 2010 English tour but Insha'Allah He will become Excellent Test pacer.

He deserved to be dropped for this series based on merit but he was picked and did not disappoint and was much improved. He had a very good series.


We have no express pacer in domestic. Not even one.


We have 2 young FC Right Arm pacers who are currently Fast Medium ie Bilal Shah Adridi & Atif Jabbar. Both at best can become Right Arm Fast provided they put in hard yards. They both can outdo Wahab in Test Cricket.


Than we have guys like Adeel Khan, Ehtisham Sultan, Mohammad Zahid junior & Mohammad Umar aka Umari Pacer who are all capable of bowling few deliveries in FAST range and if developed well they can become good pacers. None has made FC debut Yet.


We don’t have any Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Imran in domestic. No express pacer or future express pacer but we have a decent pool.


Majority of James, Anderson, Philander, McGrath's Test Wickets have been on deliveries which had same medium fast speed of Abass. Only McGrath was 4 & Asif was 2 inches taller than Abass which gives them edge.


Abass has looked better than Tanveer Ahmed, Ehsan, Rahat, Junaid, Sohail, Aizaz, Imran jnr, Gul etc and that's all what matters. If He can sustain his performances and improve his endurance stamenna than He is exactly what we need.

The question you, and those like you, need to ask is why Pakistan aren't producing the express pacers any longer. In fact, they haven't produced anyone since Sami and Riaz, both of whom were around before 2003, coincidentally when Bob Woolmer took over, but it is no coincidence in my opinion, Woolmer's laptop revolution and the preponderance of clueless domestic coaches with worse-than-useless ICC accreditations is probably the cause. Genuine fast bowlers are largely born, not made, and the obsession with diet, training, messing about with actions by coaches with a one-size-fits-all approach is the problem.

I'd be in favour of a think tank, much like Miandad suggested, of former players, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib and even Sarfraz to take the best and make them better. You can run on the treadmill for as long as you like, eat as many protein shakes as you like whilst tinkering with their actions, you'll still produce an inferior result and the last 15 years is ample proof of that. All your great fast bowlers would never have bowled fast had they been subjected to what is being done to the current crop. Predictably, Amir is heading for 130K trundledome.

From 1993-2003 you had Wasim, Waqar, Zahid, Akhtar, Mo Akram, Nadeem Iqbal, a guy called Mohammed Ali, even Rana Naved was apparently express when younger, Sami, Riaz, even Yasir Arafat could go past 90mph at times and one Mo Irshad who was apparently ruined by action changing according to comments I've read here. I'm sure there were others too.

Much like Usain Bolt was, I've been a fan of the Pakistan of yesteryear, it's time to wake up and take stock.
 
He is not brilliant?! Avg 17..SR 46...51 wkts..? He is outstanding.

Those figures are indeed outstanding but the sample size is small. Many bowlers had similar figures but petered our between tests 10-20. Indeed he’s our best pacer but amir, Yasir and junaid should caution against rejoicing too soon.
 
... and he has peformed in England and UAE.

Two opposite ends of the spectrum! Gives me reason to believe he can perform anywhere. I have to admit though this Aussie batting lineup is extremely weak.. so it takes some of the sheen off..
 
He’s not brilliant but he’s the best we’ve got currently for this composition ofattack.

I continue to marvel at the constructions you spin in this very deep hole you are digging for yourself, o the Abbas question. In what composition of attack would you as the PCB NOT play Abbas, on current form?
 
I am guessing the idea is thst amir, hassan and any combination of junaid, shaheen, etc start performing very very well as in Aamer prior to getting banned and hasan starts replicsting his CT performances in tests, etc
 
But i still wont sit abbas out honestly ... ill make room for him..
 
I continue to marvel at the constructions you spin in this very deep hole you are digging for yourself, o the Abbas question. In what composition of attack would you as the PCB NOT play Abbas, on current form?

Did your binary brain deduce that I don’t think he’s a quality bowler or something? He’s not brilliant but he’s very good and the best Pakistan have right now. Like many medium pacers he needs a good bowling partner. Now which of these statements can you possibly disagree with unless you choose to disagree for the sake of it?
 
I continue to marvel at the constructions you spin in this very deep hole you are digging for yourself, o the Abbas question. In what composition of attack would you as the PCB NOT play Abbas, on current form?

I would play him every time. This wasn’t the point of this thread. On topic it was about whether he would overtake amir to become the leader of the attack. Yes he’s the leader of the attack. He’s not brilliant.. asif was brilliant..he’s good..very good. He wouldn’t make it to an England side or Australia for that he would have to be an inch or two taller and a yard or two faster and be a little more skilful. I’m not sure if you were born when asif last played but he was brilliance personified. But just look at the scorecards of those 5 matches and now this one in Dubai just completed. You’ll see a trend...I’ll let you figure.
 
Don't think Amir would have been any successful playing in the UAE to the extent Abbas has been.
 
Amir has been finished.Abbas is the new sensation in world cricket. No comparison. Junaid is a better bowler than Amir
 
True champion this lad. Just runs in and bowls. AMir lived all his career for few test matches played in helpful conditions.....Abbass is far far better then Amir
 
I would play him every time. This wasn’t the point of this thread. On topic it was about whether he would overtake amir to become the leader of the attack. Yes he’s the leader of the attack. He’s not brilliant.. asif was brilliant..he’s good..very good. He wouldn’t make it to an England side or Australia for that he would have to be an inch or two taller and a yard or two faster and be a little more skilful. I’m not sure if you were born when asif last played but he was brilliance personified. But just look at the scorecards of those 5 matches and now this one in Dubai just completed. You’ll see a trend...I’ll let you figure.

Remind me what I should figure? You think Australia would have him over Siddle about now?
 
Remind me what I should figure? You think Australia would have him over Siddle about now?

Look are you 5 yo that you pop up from the trenches every once in a while to shoot at your own straw men arguments? I can understand the need for attention but this is really going on a bit. It’s like this.

Australia have Hazlewood and Starc for UAE. THEN Cummins and Siddle brought back from the dead. So if Hazlewood or Cummins were available they would easily taken the place of Siddle.

Do you actually understand the following point” a fast bowler over 6ft 2 generates bounce off a good length
Better than one at 5.10 or 5.11. (All else being equal) added to this Australia like pace and they want their bowlers to contribute a bit more in another area like batting.

All Australian bowlers are over 6ft (Siddle not sure) so yes if abbass was to be chosen for Australia to partner Starc he would be behind Hazlewood and Cummins. Possibly on par with the 3rd choice Australia. If you need to understand this point then re-read the bit in bold you highlighted.

There is so much more to explore on this thread that if you just accepted this basic point then we can expand further points.
 
Ofcourse he can if he carries on improving as Amir has not done enough since his comeback to international cricket over the last 2 years.
 
Look are you 5 yo that you pop up from the trenches every once in a while to shoot at your own straw men arguments? I can understand the need for attention but this is really going on a bit. It’s like this.

Australia have Hazlewood and Starc for UAE. THEN Cummins and Siddle brought back from the dead. So if Hazlewood or Cummins were available they would easily taken the place of Siddle.

Do you actually understand the following point” a fast bowler over 6ft 2 generates bounce off a good length
Better than one at 5.10 or 5.11. (All else being equal) added to this Australia like pace and they want their bowlers to contribute a bit more in another area like batting.

All Australian bowlers are over 6ft (Siddle not sure) so yes if abbass was to be chosen for Australia to partner Starc he would be behind Hazlewood and Cummins. Possibly on par with the 3rd choice Australia. If you need to understand this point then re-read the bit in bold you highlighted.

There is so much more to explore on this thread that if you just accepted this basic point then we can expand further points.

You just can't admit you were wrong? :) Of course Abbas would walk into the Aus and Eng team. He would walk into any team at the moment.
 
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