Can we finally stop with the nonsense of 'we are living in an era of flat pitches'?

[Dead Ball]

Anyone who has been following test cricket for the last 5-6 years can't be serious if he/she seriously believes this. In contrast I can think of so many series's consisting in drab draws in the 80s 90s and 00s due to absolute roads prepared by some countries.

We are seeing currently three tests in tandem being played on very challenging conditions for batsmen. Of course, there will be an occasional flattie in a few matches (especially in countries like Australia) but more or less it's been a challenging era for batsmen.

I think this is done specifically to downplay the achievements of current batsmen.

 

[jnaveen1980]

West Indian pitches have become spicier clearly. At some point it was like subcontinent wickets helping spinners. Now pacers enjoy the pace and bounce.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I have never, ever seen such dangerous pitches to bat for batsmen in my life. This is easily the most bowling friendly era in the last 50 years, easily. Forget about individual double tons, teams struggle to cross 200 every inning. Batting collapse happens every 3rd innings.

This is good for cricket.

 

[tyron_woodley]

West Indian pitches have become spicier clearly. At some point it was like subcontinent wickets helping spinners. Now pacers enjoy the pace and bounce.

what pitches were served in 07 world cup? in the carribean. All Asian teams bombed out except Bangladesh.
pakistam and india both had players at their peak and were supposed to be guaranteed favourites for the semi finals. Was it a spicy one at the time?

 

[tyron_woodley]

india vs south africa 2018 3rd test was the most dangerous pitch served in a long time. I have never seen such brutal bounce anywhere prior to that game.

 

[Red Devil]

That perception has been created by/is mostly about limited overs cricket.

 

[Danyaalr01]

what pitches were served in 07 world cup? in the carribean. All Asian teams bombed out except Bangladesh.
pakistam and india both had players at their peak and were supposed to be guaranteed favourites for the semi finals. Was it a spicy one at the time?

We are talking about test cricket. The pitches in WI for the past few years have been very brown and dry. But now they have a lot of green and they are also using the Dukes ball. The Carribean has suddenly become a fast bowling paradise.

ODI wickets tend to be flatter. Pakistan were missing Shoaib Akhtar and Muhammad Asif, Inzamam was at the end of his career. Younis was always bad in ODIs. The bowling attack was decent but the batting was quite average. Also Kamran Akmal was wicket keeper, I didn't watch but I'm guessing he spilled half the chances.

 

[Danyaalr01]

The only country you can say has made their pitches flatter is Australia. But they are also starting to make them more bowling friendly as we have seen at Perth and Adelaide. The new Drop in technology (which is being used in Perth) will be used in grounds like the MCG and SCG to make sure that they produce results and act like the old pitches of Australia.

 

[Titan24]

This statement is about LOIs. With two new balls and taking reverse out of equation and wickets as flat as ever seen in ODI cricket. You can see it from the number of batsmen averaging 50+ or close to 50 as compared to before.

Its not just the class of them as their test averages are just like previous eras with the exception of Steve Smith.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

This statement is about LOIs. With two new balls and taking reverse out of equation and wickets as flat as ever seen in ODI cricket. You can see it from the number of batsmen averaging 50+ or close to 50 as compared to before.

Its not just the class of them as their test averages are just like previous eras with the exception of Steve Smith.

No it's not. Only 3 current batsmen average 50+ in test apart from Smith (Pujara, Kohli and Williamson). In 2000s we had 13.

 

[jnaveen1980]

The only country you can say has made their pitches flatter is Australia. But they are also starting to make them more bowling friendly as we have seen at Perth and Adelaide. The new Drop in technology (which is being used in Perth) will be used in grounds like the MCG and SCG to make sure that they produce results and act like the old pitches of Australia.

Australian pitches still have bounce. Number of times Australians got hit on their knuckles was countless during the INdia series. Same way Australia terrorized Srilanka with bouncers. Atleast 2 guys were floored in the same innings.

 

[jnaveen1980]

I have to give credit to bowlers. Faster bowlers are emerging. There were more medium pacers in the 80s. Slightly reduced in the 90s. Still most of them were medium pacers. Now all teams have more faster bowlers. Also skillful bowlers. Anderson, Broad, Boult.

 

[satheesh]

what ever said and done , bowlers averaging <25 are far lesser when compared to the 80s and 90s
The pattern w.r.t batting seems to be that it is either one extreme or the other. In the 90s the likes of Sachin,Dravid,Ponting,Sanga,Kallis averaged in the high 50s till they started to decline & Lara made up for it by scoring huge once he settled in.All these batsmen apart from Sachin averaged in the range 38-42.5 in ODIs.

Now . apart from Smith , top test batsmen averages 50-55 even in their peak.The same batsmen average in high 40s apart from Smith.

The difference in trend between the 2 eras is pretty evident.

 

[jnaveen1980]

what ever said and done , bowlers averaging <25 are far lesser when compared to the 80s and 90s
The pattern w.r.t batting seems to be that it is either one extreme or the other. In the 90s the likes of Sachin,Dravid,Ponting,Sanga,Kallis averaged in the high 50s till they started to decline & Lara made up for it by scoring huge once he settled in.All these batsmen apart from Sachin averaged in the range 38-42.5 in ODIs.

Now . apart from Smith , top test batsmen averages 50-55 even in their peak.The same batsmen average in high 40s apart from Smith.

The difference in trend between the 2 eras is pretty evident.

There was a brief period ( in 2000s) where there were so many 50 plus averaged batsmen. Trott, Samaraweera, Hussey..

 

[aloo paratha]

In ODIs we do, not in tests, which is why test matches are actually entertaining

 

[IMMY69]

Anyone who has been following test cricket for the last 5-6 years can't be serious if he/she seriously believes this. In contrast I can think of so many series's consisting in drab draws in the 80s 90s and 00s due to absolute roads prepared by some countries.

We are seeing currently three tests in tandem being played on very challenging conditions for batsmen. Of course, there will be an occasional flattie in a few matches (especially in countries like Australia) but more or less it's been a challenging era for batsmen.

I think this is done specifically to downplay the achievements of current batsmen.

I've not heard this "nonsense" for test matches..

Fact that less games are now drawn is testament to this.

 

[Indiafan]

I've not heard this "nonsense" for test matches..

Fact that less games are now drawn is testament to this.

No it's a testament of extremely poor batting and temperament. Batsmen like Dravid and Younis could bat all day long without touching any of the deliveries which took wickets in the ashes and india west indies test. Nowadays batsmen cannot play 3 dot balls without going after the 4th one. They do not have the capability to bat for a draw

 

[Manunited18]

The batting quality has clearly declinedcin tests, due to more importance in the short format, and with the 10 over slog coming around the corner then good help test cricket

 

[topspin]

Anyone who has been following test cricket for the last 5-6 years can't be serious if he/she seriously believes this. In contrast I can think of so many series's consisting in drab draws in the 80s 90s and 00s due to absolute roads prepared by some countries.

We are seeing currently three tests in tandem being played on very challenging conditions for batsmen. Of course, there will be an occasional flattie in a few matches (especially in countries like Australia) but more or less it's been a challenging era for batsmen.

I think this is done specifically to downplay the achievements of current batsmen.

In tests no but in white ball cricket this statement is still very much warranted.

 

[Manunited18]

No it's a testament of extremely poor batting and temperament. Batsmen like Dravid and Younis could bat all day long without touching any of the deliveries which took wickets in the ashes and india west indies test. Nowadays batsmen cannot play 3 dot balls without going after the 4th one. They do not have the capability to bat for a draw

Spot on, no temperament or a strong mentality in the modern day flat track bullies
There are exceptions, Smith, kohli williamson pujara, root Warner when in form

 

[IMMY69]

No it's a testament of extremely poor batting and temperament. Batsmen like Dravid and Younis could bat all day long without touching any of the deliveries which took wickets in the ashes and india west indies test. Nowadays batsmen cannot play 3 dot balls without going after the 4th one. They do not have the capability to bat for a draw

Yes and the batsmen of today are brought up on flat ODI wickets and are only looking to score fast runs.
Emphasis on batting has changed and these batsmen are not equipped to handle it.

Even in the World Cup, as soon as England played on a wicket that offered some they struggled big time.

 

[Danyaalr01]

Australian pitches still have bounce. Number of times Australians got hit on their knuckles was countless during the INdia series. Same way Australia terrorized Srilanka with bouncers. Atleast 2 guys were floored in the same innings.

Yes but the 2 main grounds in Australia have very flat pitches: SCG and MCG, especially the MCG.

Perth, Adelaide (in day-night matches) and Brisbane are fine

 

[Mamoon]

Nothing wrong with the pitch/conditions and nothing special with the bowling. England’s batting was extraordinarily awful.

 

[Robert]

Anyone who has been following test cricket for the last 5-6 years can't be serious if he/she seriously believes this. In contrast I can think of so many series's consisting in drab draws in the 80s 90s and 00s due to absolute roads prepared by some countries.

We are seeing currently three tests in tandem being played on very challenging conditions for batsmen. Of course, there will be an occasional flattie in a few matches (especially in countries like Australia) but more or less it's been a challenging era for batsmen.

I think this is done specifically to downplay the achievements of current batsmen.

The Headingley wicket should have been good to bat on yesterday under the sun. It’s much less scary than decades ago when it had variable bounce. But modern batters are just not up to coping with a bit of seam movement. This England batting line is the worst in history.

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=140110]Dead Ball[/MENTION] - the reason there were a lot more drawn matches last century was that batsmen had excellent defensive techniques and would stay in all day. If the bowlers got on top, someone would dig in to stop the collapse, wear the bowlers out and then start to score again. Even as late as 2010 England could rely on Collingwood to hit a slow, ugly 75 and get England up to parity.

Now it seems to be all about hitting every ball for four.

Except Root and perhaps Stokes, none of the current England top seven would get into any England side since... well, ever.

 

[KP From India]

Sadly, no team today can say that give us a target of 200 or even 180 and we"ll chade it.Just dont have that confidance for 4'th innings.
As soon as there is any cloud cover, conventional swing or even a hint of turn, 1-2 batsmen will fight and others would surrender meekly.

 

[England First]

Wicket characteristics/conditions in each country?

What are the main conditions/characteristics of the wickets in your country?

Here’s my attempt at England’s 6 most used test grounds. And I’m going for traditionally not currently.

Also this isn’t taking into account for groundsmen preparing green tops and rank turners. This is a general analysis of England’s pitches.

Lords
It’s the best ground for seam movement in England. It often nips about everywhere. Swing depends on the weather and cloud cover. Not much spin at all. Often gets flatter and better to bat on day 2 and 3.

Oval
It’s the best ground for spin in England. The driest wicket in England. Will break up on day 4 and 5. Has a nice consistent bounce for the quicks but not much swing or seam movement. On days 1 2 and 3 it’s the best batting track in England.

Headingley
The best ground for swing in England. The moisture in the air and on the wicket really help quick bowlers. Batsmen can really struggle here if it’s overcast but if the suns out and not cloudy it turns into a road. Spinners don’t have much help at Leeds either.

Trent bridge
An absolute road unless it’s cloudy and then it swings around corners and batsmen really struggle. Can take spin on day 4 and 5. Literally like Headingley it really does depend on the weather here.

Old trafford
Just a nice traditional English wicket that offers everybody a chance. First 2 days it seams and then on days 34 and 5 it really drys out well and spins. The bounciest track in England also. I really carries through. Batting can be difficult throughout really but good players manage really enough.

Edgbaston
Its had its fair amounts of green tops over the years and it does zip around off the surface. And it’s the best ground in England for reverse swing. That really comes into play here for some reason. It has a nice consistent bounce also. Batting again can be pretty tough at times.

England is a cricket nation where weather plays a massive part. In general if it’s cloudy, overcast and moisture in the air it will zip around, seam and swing. But if it’s dry and sunny we really do produce subcontinent style roads and batting can be easy.

If anyone disagrees please feel free to correct me.

Very interested in West Indies South Africa and India.

 

[tyron_woodley]

[MENTION=140110]Dead Ball[/MENTION] - the reason there were a lot more drawn matches last century was that batsmen had excellent defensive techniques and would stay in all day. If the bowlers got on top, someone would dig in to stop the collapse, wear the bowlers out and then start to score again. Even as late as 2010 England could rely on Collingwood to hit a slow, ugly 75 and get England up to parity.

Now it seems to be all about hitting every ball for four.

Except Root and perhaps Stokes, none of the current England top seven would get into any England side since... well, ever.

or maybe the bowlers are better in this era.
Or perhaps batsmen only scored on roads. I remember plenty of under 150 scores in countries like n.z, south africa etc. I do agree the advent of t20 has changed the mentality of players as they are hell bent on attacking every ball these days.

 

[sweep_shot]

I think pitches in general have gotten flatter for LOI games. We no longer see too many low-scoring LOI games anymore.

Having said that, Test format still ends up with balanced pitches.

 

[Robert]

or maybe the bowlers are better in this era.
Or perhaps batsmen only scored on roads. I remember plenty of under 150 scores in countries like n.z, south africa etc. I do agree the advent of t20 has changed the mentality of players as they are hell bent on attacking every ball these days.

No, there just isn’t anyone as good as Marshall, Hadlee, Imran, Donald, McGrath, Warne and Murali now.

 

[tyron_woodley]

No, there just isn’t anyone as good as Marshall, Hadlee, Imran, Donald, McGrath, Warne and Murali now.

there are. It's just that technology has advanced so much that it's impossible to jot get found out. Players will go through plenty of lean patches before hitting peak form again.
There is plenty of data/visual analytics, tapes and other metrics that can be utilized to study bowlers.

All of the current greats are as good or better than the past greats. Past generation stars would struggle just as much to outshine their rivals in this modern era due to advancement in technology and that's just incontrovertible.

modern era bowlers post 2000 are far better than any of the past greats in my opinion. Batsmen of the past generations have better techniques but they also lack the atletcism plus power hitting ability of the modern greats.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

No, there just isn’t anyone as good as Marshall, Hadlee, Imran, Donald, McGrath, Warne and Murali now.

What makes you think that pat cummins or rabada or bumrah can't become as good as imran or donald.?
If you compare their records with past legends at similar age then you will see that they are doing even better than some of them.

 

[viveks]

There is objective evidence proving that conditions are more difficult in test cricket. At the same time, there is also a downward trend in technique and tactics for test cricket because players are adapting to the shorter formats. Case in point is Bairstow whose burst in ODI cricket was at the same time as a decline in Test cricket. That said teams are accommodating for this by having more specialization in the different formats. You can already see this with spinners, barely any spinners playing all 3 formats or even Test and ODIs. This is a good thing, but I fear that for teams that don't play much test cricket this will mean a downward effect for their test teams.

 

[Robert]

What makes you think that pat cummins or rabada or bumrah can't become as good as imran or donald.?
If you compare their records with past legends at similar age then you will see that they are doing even better than some of them.

Actually I rate Cummins near that 80s/90s league too, he is very good.

Rabada had a great start but seems to have gone backwards, I don't know why. Needs Steyn at the other end maybe. He hasn't taken a fivefer in his last nineteen tests. Just fourteen wickets in four home tests against a very fragile England batting side isn't great.

Bumrah maybe if he lasts, but I don't think he will with that action.

 

[Robert]

there are. It's just that technology has advanced so much that it's impossible to jot get found out. Players will go through plenty of lean patches before hitting peak form again.
There is plenty of data/visual analytics, tapes and other metrics that can be utilized to study bowlers.

All of the current greats are as good or better than the past greats. Past generation stars would struggle just as much to outshine their rivals in this modern era due to advancement in technology and that's just incontrovertible.

modern era bowlers post 2000 are far better than any of the past greats in my opinion. Batsmen of the past generations have better techniques but they also lack the atletcism plus power hitting ability of the modern greats.

Dunno what your point about technology is. Malcolm Marshall would suss out a batter's weakness in one over.

Athleticism and power hitting don't win test matches, else Joss Buttler would be Don Bradman. Long hundreds win test matches.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Actually I rate Cummins near that 80s/90s league too, he is very good.

Rabada had a great start but seems to have gone backwards, I don't know why. Needs Steyn at the other end maybe. He hasn't taken a fivefer in his last nineteen tests. Just fourteen wickets in four home tests against a very fragile England batting side isn't great.

Bumrah maybe if he lasts, but I don't think he will with that action.

Steyn was mostly out of action even during rabadas prime, so its wrong to say that rabada depended on him.
Secondly, its a bad patch his record is still very good.
As of now the Bowlers of the 80s are rated higher than cummins, bumrah, rabada just bcoz of longevity and no. Of wickets they have but i am sure that at the end of their career even rabada and cummins will be hailed as atgs.
So your argument that there are no great bowlers in current generation is not true.

Apart from these bowlers shaheen afridi and archer also have the potential to rise to the level of 80s.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Dunno what your point about technology is. Malcolm Marshall would suss out a batter's weakness in one over.

Athleticism and power hitting don't win test matches, else Joss Buttler would be Don Bradman. Long hundreds win test matches.

technology literally makes or breaks a player in the modern era.

You think modern technology wouldn't help batsmen work Marshall out? they will analyse him in depth. figure out his pattern of bolwing, suss out his weaknesses using predictive analysis tools etc. They can study him his entire bowling arsenal using this advanced technology and break him down meticulously. He would get found out and the onus will be on him for reinvent himself again.

power hitting does matter in the modern era.

unlike the past the tests aren't structured to drag on for ages. It's an entertainment. It's a result oriented era.

Marshall would struggle in the modern era or he may reinvent himself to find different strategies to succeed. We don't know that. That's why era comparisons are pointless. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that past greats would succeed in this era or vice versa. You play and adapt to the era you belong to.

Past players dint have to focus on multiple formats especially with the addition of t20.

Batsmen of the past may get found out too as every top team analyzes a batsman's technique in detail and pay a lot of attention to their proclivities to any particular type of delivery they may face. Besides in the past, lot of the rules favoured bowlers with the unlimited bouncer rule, no gear protection for batsmen etc.